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OK, so, the baroque toilet paper holder, well... The original stub about Palladio and Blenheim Palace has experienced rapid growth, and the timeline of this article now stretches from ancient Egypt to the turn of the 20th century. More images needed, btw, share 'em if you've got 'em! A few more trips to the library, and I fully expect to include the silver toilet paper holders of the Aztecs, and also the technological improvements of the 20th century, perhaps with a separate section on digital paper holders. What do you think, fellow editors, as attached as we all are to the old name, isn't it time for a page move? Please share your ideas here. How about Art toilet paper holders through the ages? --Bishonen | Talk 22:45, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Bogus article? Note: Thomas Crapper no joke!
To me, this reads like a hoax - not least the claim to the referenced Crapper book which provides "authority" for the dubious Prince Albert / Gladstone / Disraeli section. "her ambition was taken up by others, however, including Emmeline Pankhurst". Uh huh. I'd like to see more verification. --Tagishsimon (talk)
- I think you may be right that one of the last edits contained sneaky vandalism. I was hoping to keep this article on the level of art and culture, but there are always people who will think objets d'art are funny just becuse they're to do with personal hygiene. However, contrary to what people tend to assume, Thomas Crapper (1836-1910), the sanitary pioneer, is no joke! Try Google, you'll see. I have a book about Crapper right here on my desk, that I was just about to add to References: Reyburn, W. (1969). Flushed with Pride: The Story of Thomas Crapper. London. See Library of Congress! See Amazon.com! Bishonen | Talk 23:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Regarding anonymous edits in "Victorian era": I too was a little suspicious and have attempted to check the claims out.: Neville William's book "Royal Homes" (1971) London, Lutterworth Press ISBN 0 7188 0803 7, makes it quite clear that Prince Albert took a very special interest in the design inside and out of both Balmoral and Osborne, especially the sanitation. Albert also seems to have designed many fixtures and fitting personally. Including items made of deer horn at both houses. He doe not mention toilet paper holders by name, but this could be because of a delicacy on the subject when concerned with the Royal family.
- Gladstone and Disraeli wrote extensively in journals and letters, it would be surprising if they never touched on sanitary conditions, bearing in mind these would have been a comparative marvel at the time in these modern palaces, but did they talk about bathroom fitments generally, or specifically to the toilet paper holder? - I can't find out.
- Even today few British stately homes open to the public display the lavatories, one that does in Waddesden Manor and surprisingly another is Osborne House. Here Prince Albert's bathroom is displayed. I have checked English Heritage's " Osborne House" ISBN 1 85074 2499, which shows photographs of both Victoria and Albert's bathrooms, though these are both amazingly luxurious the toilets are not visible, so no conclusions can be reached.
- I think unless the editor concerned returns with references within 24 hours this section should be removed until it is verified. There is no evidence that Emmiline Pankhurst was involved with sanatory improvements, although it should be remembered that she was a great social reformer before and during her suffrage campaign. My private view is that this was added by a well intentioned editor, and is partially correct.
- It should be remembered: this subject by its very nature will attract a lavatorial humour, and scepticism, especially as it is not one discussed until recent times. History is now taught in British schools relating to the common man, rather than historic battles, Kings and aristocrats, so subjects such as this are often a first, and facts accordingly hard to check Giano 08:56, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Bishonen is correct the page does need to be moved. but not to Bishonen's suggestion, this is far too long winded, and unlikely to be typed in by any information seeker, I suggest - well I can't think of anything right now - personally I think the word "toilet" is ambiguous and downmarket and would prefer "lavatory" or at least "WC" Giano 09:00, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- It should be remembered: this subject by its very nature will attract a lavatorial humour, and scepticism, especially as it is not one discussed until recent times. History is now taught in British schools relating to the common man, rather than historic battles, Kings and aristocrats, so subjects such as this are often a first, and facts accordingly hard to check Giano 08:56, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Why wasn't I informed?
Yes. Why wasn't I informed? --Wetman 17:27, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- My apologies, Wetman, I agree you should have been. But, well, there was no plan or anything, this page has been growing organically. I mean, we've both been doing a lot of research, obviously. Come to think of it, I might also ask: why didn't you find it? (Especially when it was in the article namespace, at Baroque toilet paper holder, now a redirect, but one with a delightful History tab.) Do please contribute, I know how well-informed you are in these artistic matters. Bishonen | Talk 18:47, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
POV pushing
Substituting "abolitions" for "ablutions" is clearly part of a Judeo-Christian/Islamic Right-wing communist POV platform pushed by those who find natural bodily functions distasteful. To be truly encyclopaedic, this article needs a video clip of toilet paper actually being used. Filiocht 10:31, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Look I'm foreign OK, I confuse words! I'll take the video camera down into the Gent's in Hyde Park and see what happens!Giano 10:33, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- We'll have a collection for your legal expenses! We can call it the George Michael appeal fund. Filiocht 10:40, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Look I'm foreign OK, I confuse words! I'll take the video camera down into the Gent's in Hyde Park and see what happens!Giano 10:33, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Recent edits
Thanks very much for the new early history material you've unearthed, Filiocht! Excellent point from Harold Bloom, you are clever. (Is that The Anxiety of Influence, or what? References, references, references!) I like the Sparta factoid especially, it really illustrates the topic's multiplicity of cultural aspects. As soon as I save here, I'm planning to move your beautiful Byzantine image to the lead, hope you don't mind (please just move it back if you object). I think it would make a fine keynote visual for the whole article, whereas the Fabergé egg was always too speculative for the purpose—it was only there because images have been such an overall problem.
I'm frankly a little worried about your Chinese angle, though. Note that, although the article name doesn't indicate it (it's going to need to be moved anyway), we are really doing European tph's only. Cf. lead: "facet of European bathroom design". The geographical limitation is admittedly already fuzzy around the edges, with ancient Egypt and Tsarist Russia getting a look-in, but still, with those areas an argument can be made for overlapping cultural spheres. It's not quite the same as aspiring to global coverage, which would be a daunting task. The Chinese material is nice and all, but perhaps you could formulate it in a more throwaway manner, like in the form of an acknowledgement that rich tph traditions did and do exist outside of Europe? (Such an acknowledgement is anyways appropriate, now I think of it, and would need to come as early as possible, naturally. Put in the silver Aztec holders, if you like, I've got sources for that.) As for the Terracotta Army queuing to use the camp latrine, uh, well, a very arresting notion and a handsome image, but it frankly sounds a little non-mainstream to me. I thought they were parading or whatever. Non-mainstream isn't necessarily bad, but you need to source it—attribute it to someone—preferably with an inline reference, we are grooming this for FAC, you know. Anyway, thanks very much, you've certainly enriched the early history! Bishonen | Talk 12:10, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Has to be said
Prince Albert and the tph: Little known fact that Prince Albert spent a great deal of time designing and redesigning the fixtures. That's the origin of the British and American joke, "Do you have Prince Albert in a can? Well, you'd better let him out." Prince Albert was "in the can" in life, and the tobacco named after him was meant to honor his predilections by putting the tobacco in a can. Also, I think the terra cotta warriors lining up for the bathroom is an excellent speculation, although I cannot agree with it. Had there been rock concerts in ancient China, then it would make sense for the warriors to be queuing for the bog, but in an age before amplifiers and rock show promoters, I can only assume that the warriors are totems of constipation: a religious signifier warning the populace to use the bathroom, so that they might not petrify as the warriors did. Geogre 12:28, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Balancing Marx
Anyone got good sources for a Racial purity and the rise of Facism section? Filiocht 14:09, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)
A joke's a joke
Good one, Giano (sigh) but I'm assuming you don't mean to leave the poster-size image of your mother-in-law's "Palladian" tph in the 18th c section for when we go live? Our mission is to get an often-belittled topic taken seriously, you know, and, with respect, there are plenty of your relatives in there already. Sheesh, guys, sometimes is like you're inviting that patriarchal scepticism. And proper sources, please, everyone! If it's for a detail that's not easy to find through the index, inline page references are appreciated. (I'm kind of starting to hope that the references we already have may suffice to source a few more claims—the References section is getting almost provocatively long, by no means a desired effect.) Let's all keep in mind that we're going for an encyclopedic tone here. A little problematization, a few cautious reservations, can only enhance your brilliant aperçus! Filiocht, I applaud your European-Chinese connection through Marco Polo, that's a great way of keeping the European focus. Racial purity, hmmm... dunno. Are you going past "antique" with the tph history itself, or is this a fascist theorising of tph's throough the ages that you're talking about? Because if so, I gotta say I got nothing. Bishonen | Talk 14:52, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Having just unearthed a nugget on the Grail, I feel that Hitler is only a heartbeat away. If only I could dig up the research behind Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade I might be able to pull it all together. After all, the notion that a key indicator of personal hygiene, and, by extension, of racial purity, seemed to have originated from the Golden Crescent would surely have sent any good Aryan into a tailspin. 15:07, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC) Filiocht
- Oh, sure, I do see the significance of the hygiene-purity connection, most certainly. (Though, again, my still unrealized favorite project of a "Ye Olde bidet" page might be an even better place for it—even greater "purity", you know?) The Holy Grail a tph...? Fascinating. Admittedly they come in many surprising shapes, but... well, I thought the HG was basically a bowl. Like, a possible potty rather than a tph? We mustn't shirk indelicate questions like, what exactly would it hold, as a tph? Balled-up bits of patterned parchment... ? It just seems too luxurious a material to be treated so cavalierly. Bishonen | Talk 15:32, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I imagine it holding some of the lost books of the New Testament. Hence the fact that they are lost... Filiocht 15:37, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)
- There are times Bishonen when I suspect you have no appreciation of the finer things in life, that priceless object d'art is a family heirloom, it is the first ever photograph of such an item, the only one even slightly similar is in the Vatican, but if you don't want it on the page that's fine, generations of the Chiaramonte have reached for that object in their hour of need, anyway no matter if its not good enough for you OK! Giano 19:14, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I imagine it holding some of the lost books of the New Testament. Hence the fact that they are lost... Filiocht 15:37, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, sure, I do see the significance of the hygiene-purity connection, most certainly. (Though, again, my still unrealized favorite project of a "Ye Olde bidet" page might be an even better place for it—even greater "purity", you know?) The Holy Grail a tph...? Fascinating. Admittedly they come in many surprising shapes, but... well, I thought the HG was basically a bowl. Like, a possible potty rather than a tph? We mustn't shirk indelicate questions like, what exactly would it hold, as a tph? Balled-up bits of patterned parchment... ? It just seems too luxurious a material to be treated so cavalierly. Bishonen | Talk 15:32, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Iceland? Geogre?
I tried to straighten out the chronology a bit, hope I got it right, and in the process noticed a bit of a lacuna around the year 1000. Geogre, I know you've been reading Icelandic sagas recently, anything in there? "These sharp-edged toilet paper holders are becoming fashionable, I see [dies]"? "No, Gunnar, this is for the time you hit me: I will not hand you the toilet paper?" Any indication that the Stonehenge holders found their way along the whale-road? Bishonen | Talk 06:11, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
And welcome, Pete! Bishonen | Talk 06:15, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I did not see this request. Of course there is matter there, which has been hidden by time. Before it is all flushed away entirely, I will see what I can add to the subject. The problem was that futharc was an inscribed language, and so the bone tph's they had were often too large for easy use. Thus it is that the longest piece of fecal matter (now a coprolith) in existence was from a "Viking" settlement. This piece of feces measured over 18 cm long. Why is that? The absence of abundant paper? Of course not! We know that the Icelanders and Norwegians were trading as far away as Kiev. It was because the tph was rather large, so the sheets of paper were folio! One needed to be expansive, as it were, to use the bathroom in those days, among those people. Geogre 20:30, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Trivia
I added this section to allow us add a little levity to such a serious article. Filiocht 08:25, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Expanded Lead
Yeah, there's been a lot of wonderful new information added in the past 24 hours, thank you Filiocht and Giano! So I expanded the lead. Could you all review it, please? I'm anything but happy about the crude way I summarize the Grail material there, need I say. I kind of ran out of steam, and with the bald way I put that particular thing, I'm afraid of again putting into people's heads the idea of the whole thing being a joke (compare the "Bogus article?" entry above), obviously the last thing we want. We're trying to educate people here, not raise a cheap laugh. It would be great if somebody could do a more convincing-sounding Grail sentence, and maybe other sentences, too, do feel free. Bishonen | Talk 08:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC) P. S. Got an edit conflict—oh, Filiocht! [reproachfully]. Just as I'm calling for seriousness, you insert a trivia section? You do recollect a trivia section is a pet peeve of many FAC voters, right? OK, I'll save and go check it out, it better be good!Bishonen | Talk 08:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- BTW, thanks for clarifying my gender bit for the layman; I hang my head in shame when I think of how my sense of mission caused me to lose sight of the gentle reader. Filiocht 08:43, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Well... OK. The haiku is quite tasteful, I suppose. Would you consider taking it in lieu of your threatened video clip of toilet paper actually being used? Mind you, I would very much like to see an animated .gif of Giano's astoundingly graphic cave paintings apparently representing that same thing. That's what I call cultural. (Yes, I do appreciate the finer things in life!) Bishonen | Talk 08:48, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Seems like a fair swap. I have two more general additions in mind; a section on the Celtic dimension and a brief reference to the theory that the Liberty Bell was cracked by an over-vigorous yank (pardon the pun) on the roll of paper it was holding at the time. This latter gets in on the basis that the US is a fringe part of Greater Europe. Care to lend a hand? Filiocht 08:59, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- I think we can put the whole world, including the Liberty Bell, into trivia, fine: but I have some objections to putting the US into Europe. 1) They have a very rich—or, well, that may not be the way to put it—a very ample toilet paper holder history of their own. Not in years—native American toilet paper holders appear to have been of a utilitaraian nature—but in regional variation. And as with Palladian arachitecture, the Americans consider themselves the true keepers of the flame of the Palladian toilet paper holder, and, not to put too fine a point on it, Pete is here, you know—you want to encourage him to make claims for the pre-eminence of his native tph's? I just see the article becoming twice as long, if that kind of thing starts, and acrimony of patriotism breaking out on the Talk page. (Sorry, Pete, I know it wouldn't be your fault if it did.) 2) I'm loath to abandon the original conception of this as a kind of celebration of the EU—a companion piece, if you will, for PGreenfinch's EU Olympic medal count pages, which were such an ornament to VfD, back in the times when I still frequented VfD. Something of a counterweight to Wikipedia Americentrism. But for a Celtic dimension, what could be more marvellous, absolutely! I noted with great satisfaction, summarizing stuff for the Lead, that mere personal hygiene no longer rules unchallenged in this article—a strong religious dimension is creeping in! That should appeal to a whole new audience section. A bit of Celtic mystery and moonshine for the New Agers would be the perfect complement. Has King Arthur even been mentioned yet? I think not! An omission indeed. Bishonen | Talk 10:13, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Hinted at in the Grail material, but not actually mentioned. I'll chase up what I can on this. Filiocht 10:16, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- I think we can put the whole world, including the Liberty Bell, into trivia, fine: but I have some objections to putting the US into Europe. 1) They have a very rich—or, well, that may not be the way to put it—a very ample toilet paper holder history of their own. Not in years—native American toilet paper holders appear to have been of a utilitaraian nature—but in regional variation. And as with Palladian arachitecture, the Americans consider themselves the true keepers of the flame of the Palladian toilet paper holder, and, not to put too fine a point on it, Pete is here, you know—you want to encourage him to make claims for the pre-eminence of his native tph's? I just see the article becoming twice as long, if that kind of thing starts, and acrimony of patriotism breaking out on the Talk page. (Sorry, Pete, I know it wouldn't be your fault if it did.) 2) I'm loath to abandon the original conception of this as a kind of celebration of the EU—a companion piece, if you will, for PGreenfinch's EU Olympic medal count pages, which were such an ornament to VfD, back in the times when I still frequented VfD. Something of a counterweight to Wikipedia Americentrism. But for a Celtic dimension, what could be more marvellous, absolutely! I noted with great satisfaction, summarizing stuff for the Lead, that mere personal hygiene no longer rules unchallenged in this article—a strong religious dimension is creeping in! That should appeal to a whole new audience section. A bit of Celtic mystery and moonshine for the New Agers would be the perfect complement. Has King Arthur even been mentioned yet? I think not! An omission indeed. Bishonen | Talk 10:13, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Seems like a fair swap. I have two more general additions in mind; a section on the Celtic dimension and a brief reference to the theory that the Liberty Bell was cracked by an over-vigorous yank (pardon the pun) on the roll of paper it was holding at the time. This latter gets in on the basis that the US is a fringe part of Greater Europe. Care to lend a hand? Filiocht 08:59, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Well... OK. The haiku is quite tasteful, I suppose. Would you consider taking it in lieu of your threatened video clip of toilet paper actually being used? Mind you, I would very much like to see an animated .gif of Giano's astoundingly graphic cave paintings apparently representing that same thing. That's what I call cultural. (Yes, I do appreciate the finer things in life!) Bishonen | Talk 08:48, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Celtic additions
I have added a section on Celtic material, but it is, of course, entirely inadequate. Please improve it for me. Filiocht 11:19, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- A ha! The Grail a tph --> excrement --> improved farming practices --> Celtic vegetation cult --> abandonment of hunter-gatherer culture --> death of the Round Table! Filiocht, I salute you, that's awesome, I'm humbled. It makes my Grail mention in the Lead look even worse, couldn't you please expand it to do justice to your new Celtic twilight bit? Meanwhile, I go do a little chronology/TOC tweaking again, please just revert if you don't like how it comes out. Bishonen | Talk 11:51, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks. While we're in the business of recognising excellence, can I just congratulate you on the accuity of your recent edit summaries. I almost feel I no longer need to read the article itself. Filiocht 13:23, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Three further points: 1)The key to the authority of the Arthur passage is the manner in which I attempt to replicate the style of the 1911 EB. 2) As for the Lead; just a minor point, but don't you think it's already a tad too long for FAC already? 3) Are we due a revert war yet? and 4) Isn't text formatting FUN!!!! Filiocht 13:33, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- I do think the lead is too detailed, I was bunging everything in with the idea that the people who provided the summarized material could shorten their own bits in it conservatively. But I might as well have a shot, then anybody can go back to the exhaustive version and pluck the plums from it, if they think their special baby has ended up bowdlerized. On the edit summaries: thank you, it is indeed my ultimate goal to make the article itself redundant. I'm very proud of the History altogether, as a record of a fine collaboration, and am sorry I left part of it behind at Baroque toilet paper holder, now a mere redirect to the stub Toilet roll holder, especially as it records some of Giano's most inimitable contributions. Fil, you're an admin, do you know how to merge the histories? I asked on IRC yesterday, and was told it's pretty easy in a case like this, where the original article stopped being edited as soon as the new one came into existence. Are you up for it? I have a description, of a sort (courtesy of none other than Raul on IRC...!), but I don't have the "undelete" powers that you do, so I can't do it myself. Alternatively, I have somebody in mind I think is both technical-minded and discreet, my good friend User:DBachmann.Bishonen | Talk 15:00, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Well, that was a first, but I did it. Now I think I need to lie down in a dark room. The sheer stress of realising that I held the history of this masterpiece in my humble hands (well, you know what I mean). Still, I seem to have managed not to mess it up. I'm going to add a to do list now. Maybe you'd move it to the top of the page next time you're here? Filiocht 16:18, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- I do think the lead is too detailed, I was bunging everything in with the idea that the people who provided the summarized material could shorten their own bits in it conservatively. But I might as well have a shot, then anybody can go back to the exhaustive version and pluck the plums from it, if they think their special baby has ended up bowdlerized. On the edit summaries: thank you, it is indeed my ultimate goal to make the article itself redundant. I'm very proud of the History altogether, as a record of a fine collaboration, and am sorry I left part of it behind at Baroque toilet paper holder, now a mere redirect to the stub Toilet roll holder, especially as it records some of Giano's most inimitable contributions. Fil, you're an admin, do you know how to merge the histories? I asked on IRC yesterday, and was told it's pretty easy in a case like this, where the original article stopped being edited as soon as the new one came into existence. Are you up for it? I have a description, of a sort (courtesy of none other than Raul on IRC...!), but I don't have the "undelete" powers that you do, so I can't do it myself. Alternatively, I have somebody in mind I think is both technical-minded and discreet, my good friend User:DBachmann.Bishonen | Talk 15:00, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Three further points: 1)The key to the authority of the Arthur passage is the manner in which I attempt to replicate the style of the 1911 EB. 2) As for the Lead; just a minor point, but don't you think it's already a tad too long for FAC already? 3) Are we due a revert war yet? and 4) Isn't text formatting FUN!!!! Filiocht 13:33, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks. While we're in the business of recognising excellence, can I just congratulate you on the accuity of your recent edit summaries. I almost feel I no longer need to read the article itself. Filiocht 13:23, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Honestly, how slow can this server get? You're brilliant, Fil, how is that ulcer? It's a true pleasure to see it all properly lined up. I guess I forgot to mention that Raul and Sannse, who both jumped in with a lot of fine advice last night, did use the words "careful" and "stress" a good deal, and altogether I, well, received an impression of unspecified psychic horrors. True fact, and sorry about that. Thank you very much, do recover! (And when you have, would you consider, uh, also merging the Talk page histories...?) Bishonen | Talk 16:43, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Restored by a good night's sleep and a mighty movement, I have now merged the talk histories as well. Is there any other way in which I can be of service? Filiocht 08:32, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
Futurist tp image :-D
Wonderful! Pete, you've lifted the page visually by about 100% right there, I can't believe what a lovely, artistic piece you've managed to photograph. And it shows a beautiful sentiment of reverence too, for the tph image that gave birth to the original stub from which this page has blossomed. I can still see those great restrained flutings of Vanbrugh's—you've made me very happy! Bishonen | Talk 16:55, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you. Yes, I've always felt it was a very elegiac piece. I'm pleased you detected Vanbrugh's influence--you must be trained in art history. PRiis 18:11, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- It's a steal at $27.48! But is that faux mahagony I detect? Fauxhagony? PRiis 23:28, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Inline references
Oh, and Filiocht, now you're talkin'! I can't tell you what a pedant's delight it is to see an unassailable, truly specific inline reference like "Gibbon passim". --Bishonen | Talk 23:20, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Well spotted, indeed. IMHO, my finest contribution to the article to date. Filiocht 08:25, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
Request for assistance
I agonised for hours over the hyphenation of 'now-lost' in the sentence on Layamon's possible sources. Can anyone else please clarify and/or fix? Filiocht 08:46, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
What on earth?
What the heck is this page?!? - Ta bu shi da yu 08:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Please feel free to improve it as you will. Filiocht 09:01, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
- This is brilliant. Hats off to all who worked on it, and I can't believe I didn't see it until it hit FAC. —Charles P. (Mirv) 10:05, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Premature FAC alert
Like a gent caught short only to find that tph is empty, we've been nominated on WP:FAC. Go vote, everybody. Filiocht 10:15, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
- On the other hand, if an FAC listing results in contributions of the quality of Wetman's addition to the Trivia section, it can only be a good thing. Filiocht 10:39, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
Jokes..?
I notice with regret that some people are referring to this page as a joke. Even in a recent edit summary..! It's a scholarly page about, granted, a marginal subject, but a subject that admits a grand, illustrative, often eye-opening, sweep through European art history, design history, and political history. The page even has a religious dimension. If you think the personal hygiene angle makes all this funny, with all due respect, might you be reproducing the masculine domination strategy of toilet humour? Please see section "Gender perspective: 'invisible' toilet paper holders" for an analysis of that knee-jerk reaction! Out of a highly educational page, I consider that section to be the most educational. Bishonen | Talk 18:54, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I strongly suspect it is the analy retentive British contingent of editors who find this serious subject amusing, this can probably be traced to British public school education, where I am reliably informed TPHs, often empty or loaded with a hard scratchy type of paper, were seen as instruments of torture; a brave soul who found an empty TPH and (usually pointlessly) called to his peers for assistance often became a figure of negative ridicule. There is probably also a hint of ethnic jealousy, as many of the finer and more superior examples, (excluding the Germano-Celtic antler variety) both antique and modern, are of an Italianate style, if not actually Italian therefore demonstrating and compunding the superiority of Italian design and chic for which its people are so well known and admired throughout the world. Giano 08:19, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- As an Irishman, I'd also like to point up the element of imperialism inhenent in the English attitude. After 700 years of ramming their toilet paper down our throats, the Brits find it impossible to believe or accept that we had personal hygiene while they were still daubing themselves with wattle! Filiocht 08:23, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- I know I'm the local commie and all, but I had to add something to the 21st c. section. Notice how Americans and Brits don't get bidets? Notice how Japanese super toilets aren't in use? What is that except the desire to retain class distinctions? What of the increasing popularity of scented hubs for toilet paper rolls? What is that except an attempt by the upper bourgeoise to say that their sh*t don't stink? Isn't it obvious that the whole issue is inextricably bound up in class and gender identity? Plus, why has no one pointed out the psychology of it, the fear of feces, the body-consciousness, the way that toilet paper holders are part of the social neurosis that leads to anorexia and bulimia among young women? One's body must be covered up in decoration, in scents, for one is always at war with the smelly parts of the anatomy! Obvious, obvious, obvious! Geogre 20:25, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- You know, I really must object. It's little known that it was an Irishman who, in 1575, originally invented the toilet. 20 years later it was improved by John Harington who, in 1596, put a hole in the seat. I really feel that this has been a neglected fact about toilets, one that should be resolved - and soon! - Ta bu shi da yu 14:48, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I know I'm the local commie and all, but I had to add something to the 21st c. section. Notice how Americans and Brits don't get bidets? Notice how Japanese super toilets aren't in use? What is that except the desire to retain class distinctions? What of the increasing popularity of scented hubs for toilet paper rolls? What is that except an attempt by the upper bourgeoise to say that their sh*t don't stink? Isn't it obvious that the whole issue is inextricably bound up in class and gender identity? Plus, why has no one pointed out the psychology of it, the fear of feces, the body-consciousness, the way that toilet paper holders are part of the social neurosis that leads to anorexia and bulimia among young women? One's body must be covered up in decoration, in scents, for one is always at war with the smelly parts of the anatomy! Obvious, obvious, obvious! Geogre 20:25, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I must protest this latest addition, and even more these alarming suggestions of more to come. The worm must turn. Oh, what is happening to the page of spectacular opulence, of Palladio, of Fabergé, of an unbroken line of splendid bathroom fitments from Villa Franca to Balmoral, of royal gifts, even, I never thought I'd say this, of Giano's aunts? Aren't we wandering a bit far from the subject? First actual toilet paper entered the scene—that was gross enough, but I couldn't deny it was tenuously relevant—now the bidets are taking over and the shit is waiting to hit the fan. Geogre, dear, wouldn't you like to go create Ye Olde bidet, Ye Olde smelly parts, and Ye Olde fecal matter (I see above that you have excellent Icelandic material for that one), link them from "European toilet paper holder", and do some nice historical/antique prospectuses in them? Filiocht would pitch in, I'm sure. Bishonen | Talk 21:02, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- As an Irishman, I'd also like to point up the element of imperialism inhenent in the English attitude. After 700 years of ramming their toilet paper down our throats, the Brits find it impossible to believe or accept that we had personal hygiene while they were still daubing themselves with wattle! Filiocht 08:23, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- P. S. Geogre, I hope you don't take me to imply any lack of appreciation for your tph contributions! You know I love them, please keep them coming, you've been too rare a visitor at this article. It needs you. I'm just saying, you know, that it might be nice for you to have some, uh, special outlets? For your, hmm.
Special interests.. ?Proclivities. Bishonen | Talk 00:21, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Well, if you're afraid to face the end of the process, then I suggest you take heart, show your fiber, and realize that the holder is only significant as a signifier for the signified of feces. To consider the holder without the paper, and the paper without the thing it covers (the ink of ordure is covered by the white of the paper, rather than being inscribed by it?) is to consider the breath mint without admitting that there is halitosis. Only the "problem" of fecal contamination makes the "cure" of the toilet paper roll, and only the portability of the toilet paper roll makes it necessary to fasten and root and therefore to contain the mobility of the toilet paper with a holder. The holder prevents the contamination of domestic space by the paper, which is so inextricably linked to the signified of evacuation that its mere presence defiles a room. The lady coming from the toilet with paper stuck to her Prada high heel shoes is humorous only to the class conscious and only because she is ritually defiled by the admission of bowel movements. Geogre 03:50, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not so much afraid to face it (though I'm not so bendy as I was), as suggesting we don't need any complementary logorrhea process about it. What's wrong with a simple "Oh! Celia, Celia, Celia shits!"? Bishonen | Talk 07:20, 12 Feb
2005 (UTC)
- As the scion of one of the great TPH pioneering families, the factory in Urbino is still in production (mail order from User talk:Giano, large discounts to registered editors) I feel the page is digressing (yes you Geogre!) if it was a page on Vases would you feel the nedd to discuss every type of flower? - No you would not. So please confine yourself to the artefacts in hand (by that I mean TPHs nothing else!). This page needs to maintain style and panache Giano 10:06, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- PS I am offering the Palladian at 50% discount, and accept all major credit cards
- I may not be very good on the difference between Prada and Pravda (incidentally, Geogre, I believe I'm the local commie!) or whatever it was, but I do know a tasteful metaphor when I see it. You da man, Giano, and thank you for the lovely award on my page, too. Bishonen | Talk 13:56, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- PS I am offering the Palladian at 50% discount, and accept all major credit cards
- As the scion of one of the great TPH pioneering families, the factory in Urbino is still in production (mail order from User talk:Giano, large discounts to registered editors) I feel the page is digressing (yes you Geogre!) if it was a page on Vases would you feel the nedd to discuss every type of flower? - No you would not. So please confine yourself to the artefacts in hand (by that I mean TPHs nothing else!). This page needs to maintain style and panache Giano 10:06, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
21st century digital bathroom fitments?
What's this section doing in an article called "User: Bishonen/Antique toilet paper holder" (my emphasis)? I suggest this section is moved to User:ALoan/Digital bathroom fitments instead, jguk 12:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Just as the digital, paperless office is so scarce as to have high rarity value, who are we to argue that these fittings will not be the antiques of the future? Filiocht 13:17, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- Moved, nothing. Your technically right, jguk, but the chronology has been expanding irresistibly in both directions, with input from many editors, out from the original stub Baroque toilet paper holder, which was about Vanbrugh's famous "Blenheim holder." The article was moved to "Antique" to recognize that it had gone beyond baroque, and it's going to have to be moved again (into the article space, if I could convince myself it would be safe there—compare my recent comment on FAC), I'm thinking maybe to European toilet paper holder, with a note on Tutankhamun as an honorary European. Don't you go despoiling it of its beauties. We will by no means give up ALoan's "vestigial" tph, with its invaluable suggestion of an organic tph dimension.--Bishonen | Talk 13:19, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Seconded. Why not just do the move? I think we can cite the FAC nomination as a defense on VfD. Filiocht 13:31, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- Moved, nothing. Your technically right, jguk, but the chronology has been expanding irresistibly in both directions, with input from many editors, out from the original stub Baroque toilet paper holder, which was about Vanbrugh's famous "Blenheim holder." The article was moved to "Antique" to recognize that it had gone beyond baroque, and it's going to have to be moved again (into the article space, if I could convince myself it would be safe there—compare my recent comment on FAC), I'm thinking maybe to European toilet paper holder, with a note on Tutankhamun as an honorary European. Don't you go despoiling it of its beauties. We will by no means give up ALoan's "vestigial" tph, with its invaluable suggestion of an organic tph dimension.--Bishonen | Talk 13:19, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Indeed - I myself had second thoughts about the "antiqueness" of the 21st century digital tph, but I was merely (upon request) providing one of the items listed in the "todo" list above. The article has expanded well beyond its titles heretofore, but I don't think we should limit ourselves to European tph - neither Egypt nor Japan are in Europe. Look at Japanese toilet (itself a featured article, btw) for an example of a Meiji-era wooden tph, which may be an appropriate addition here. Unfortunately, the finer points of historic Japanese tph are outwith my knowledge. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- What about Toilet paper holders and the evolution of the human species? A bit over-modest, perhaps. Filiocht 14:35, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
(Losing indent). Many pages have been on FAC and VfD simultaneously, it hasn't worked as a defence (American spelling, and from you, Fil!) so far. Consider the Ashlee Simpson case. At least, I wish somebody would take it to IRC first. I'd like to sound out Raul to see if he would consider it a provocation, and generally listen for if anybody there seems set to pounce, because for my money this page becomes silly vandalism the moment it's in the article namespace. As such, why wouldn't it be speedied, even? I can't go on IRC (I'm practically typing from in class), Geogre may be the only IRCer around (unless he's left). Bishonen | Talk 14:42, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Not so much US spelling as bloody awful typing! Filiocht 14:58, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- Edit conflict: ALoan, for aspirations to global coverage, I'm totally against them, please see my posts at "Recent edits" and "Expanded lead" above! Bishonen | Talk 14:42, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Edit conflict again!! This is too recursive for me--I'm still trying to answer Filiocht's "Why not just do the move?", it's beginning to look impossible.--Bishonen | Talk 14:42, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I still like Toilet tissue bottom cleansing facilitator which has more of a transatlantic ring to it, allthough there should still be reference to the important Irish and Italian input. Giano 14:52, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- And now the integrety of our referencing is being questioned on the FAC page. Best to leave the page where it is. Filiocht 14:56, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- I do think it's safer, people have a delicacy about VfD'ing and otherwise messing with the userspace. I have replied haughtily to Taxman (and removed PRiis' Porter book... :-)). I'll only get another edit conflict, but I have to say to Giano: don't you mean output?--Bishonen | Talk 14:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- And now the integrety of our referencing is being questioned on the FAC page. Best to leave the page where it is. Filiocht 14:56, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- I still like Toilet tissue bottom cleansing facilitator which has more of a transatlantic ring to it, allthough there should still be reference to the important Irish and Italian input. Giano 14:52, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Edit conflict again!! This is too recursive for me--I'm still trying to answer Filiocht's "Why not just do the move?", it's beginning to look impossible.--Bishonen | Talk 14:42, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Metamathematical perspective
Why is this missing? Fredrik | talk 14:30, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Because of authorial ignorance, if I can speak for myself alone. Please give us some guidance, or better still, add a section to the article. Filiocht 14:33, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
Announcing creation of hub article "Toilet paper holder"
Considering its quality, User:Bishonen/Antique toilet paper holder is by no means too long, but I feel that it's in danger of becoming so, in view of some of the more enthusiastic proposals for expanding it to take in the whole world. There is optimal length, and then there is off-putting length. To keep this article optimal and at the same time to get the global contributions rolling in, rather than merely being proposed, I have tried to provide a more appropriate format, thus:
- I have moved the article to User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder. I think the "Antique" name at the FAC nomination may be best left alone, since I've seen some signal complications arising when people have tried to change article names on FAC. The old page is now a redirect to the new, so the links should work just the same.
- I have created super-article or "hub" User:Bishonen/Toilet paper holder, to be its parent and also the parent of North American toilet paper holder, South American toilet paper holder, African toilet paper holder, Asian toilet paper holder (which will soon need further subdividing for sure), Antarctic toilet paper holder, and Australian toilet paper holder, when those sibling articles shall be created. It's in my userspace because it's not fit for the article namespace, being full of empty sections and redlinks, but I don't plan to nurse it any; anybody who's willing to take a little care of it is invited to move it into their own space, the sooner the better.
- I've put a two-paragraph summary of User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder (in fact our lead section) into the global article, and invite the people who will no doubt soon be creating articles for the other continents to do the same for those. The global article will presumably need its own intro and some general sections, but I leave all that to abler pens.
I would be sorry to lose any of the great material in the present article, and have for now left the brief passages referring to Egypt, China, and Japan where they are, though I feel compelled in logic to invite whoever creates the relevant sibling articles to harvest not merely inspiration, but also these bits of actual text, from User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder.
P.S. Don't perpetrate any hoaxes when you create these new pages, please. And if you do, don't put 'em in the article namespace. --Bishonen | Talk 20:06, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Asian article created, please use it
Well, that didn't help, Asian edits are still being added to the European article. Those edits are great in themselves, I appreciate them, but IMHO the article is just getting too long to be funny. If it gets much more elaborate than this, I for one wouldn't read it. If others feel I have the wrong idea, please tell me on this page, I have no wish to try to dictate to other editors what they should or should not do. But this is my suggested policy for the article, submitted for your approval:
I've now created User:Bishonen/Asian toilet paper holder, please use it. Relevant edits and improvements of User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder are heartily welcome, please improve it as you see fit, but if you add substantial new sections, please also consider removing or condensing old material. Bishonen | Talk 17:28, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Can we keep all materials from the Golden Crescent and the Eastern Empire in the Europe article, as it is impossible to understand the evolution of Western tphs without this background. Ditto the Marco Polo stuff. Filiocht 12:01, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Hey, the blarney man is back, cool! (I've edited Blarney, it was woeful.) Please explain, draw a map if necessary, which bits of the map exactly these fancy roundabout terms of yours involve. The permafrost dame school that was my higher education had to follow the reindeer like everybody else, and between pitching and unpitching the tents and setting up the toilet paper holders for the night, the geography class never got much beyond the next glacier. Better still, please restore relevant bits yourself! Bishonen | Talk 12:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Back to other business
Moorish open-air water closet with lion toilet paper holders
Excellence strikes again, thank you Filiocht! :-) Bishonen | Talk 17:28, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please read, 12 Feb, the latest on where we stand: Raul on IRC
Raul654 will under no circumstances feature a faux article on the Main Page, April 1 or no April 1. (Well, I didn't really think he would.) He wants an article from Unusual articles brought up to Featured standard so he can use it on April 1, in case any of you feel like working on that. I asked if he thought User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder would be speedied if it was moved to the article namespace, and he said no, but of course it would be VfD'd. I said I didn't see how it would ever survive VfD, and he sort of agreed. He advised me to keep it in userspace. However, if you guys are hungry for some more limelight, we could always move it into the article space, wait for the VfD listing, and have ourselves a fun process and a bigger audience there. Don't see why anybody would need to actually hurt the page, if we moved it back into my space if/when the vote started to look bad, but I'm not sure how that would work—maybe it would provoke people into insisting this user subpage be deleted, too. Anyway, I'll leave that up to others to decide, especially the more recent contributors, who may still feel protective of the page, where I'm beginning to be a little jaded.--Bishonen | Talk 19:46, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- If serious and respected newspapers and media stations can run April fools jokes why can't Wikipedia, one always runs an explanation the following day (for those who were fooled) However if Wiki is to be totally devoid of a sense of humour, lets release it into the wild, it could be a laugh as some will take it seriously and edit and question, and the pompous reasons for its deletion could be amusing - lets have a final laugh with it - well that's my POV what say the rest? Probably a good idea to hide this talk page though Giano 20:10, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This page should be the featured article on 1 April. I'm sure a discussion on Talk:Main page would get sufficient support to persuage Raul to change his mind.
Equally clear, this page should not be in the article namespace (except on 1 April!) jguk 20:24, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Limelight! What do you mean "limelight"? Close the door, for decency's sake! Now, if the Featured Article on the Front Page were paper it'd be of some use.--Wetman 20:50, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry, but you can't escape the limelight now. Read Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2005-02-14/Article hoax. It's high time some good investigative journalism put an end to this fraud! --Michael Snow 10:56, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- On reflection it will be well and truly over the top by April 1st, it needs releasing now, its run its course and needs to take its chance Giano 20:58, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Giano, yes, this talk page could be archived, or simply cleaned of broad unseemly winks. Most of it is very serious and proper, after all. ;-) It does seem a little absurd for wikipedia to take itself more seriously than the BBC and the New York Times. And thank you, jguk, very clearly put, I guess I agree with you on both points. I won't move to initiate any Talk:Main page discussion myself, though, I think I've been making a spectacle of myself whipping this horse enough, and then some. Perhaps jguk, if you're in favour of having such a discussion...? If April 1 remains a non-starter, I'm with Giano that a VfD would be a fun way to go. But note that Filiocht is always away at weekends, and PRiis and Geogre both seem to be only tenuously around just now, so I wouldn't feeel right about moving to the article namespace in a hurry, whatever else happens. Bishonen | Talk 21:10, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC). Aha, edit conflict, hi, Wetman. I think you have provided us with a (suitably mysterious) clarion call: Wikipedia is not toilet paper!
Trivia section: "Better caption"...?
|
'What would Ta bu shi da yu do?' The author of this comment has requested that you ask, WWTBSDYD? Please edit this article in any way to improve it. |
Other editors' input is requested on whether Ta bu shi da yu's new caption for Rodin's "The Thinker" is indeed better than the original one. My own view is that the original caption goes with the trivia item in the text (and is needed as a translation of the lovely French phrase there), and the new one doesn't. Bishonen | Talk 14:01, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Maybe we could integrate the two. Of much greater concern is the lapse in Poundian scholarship evident in the trivia section. Fancy not giving the actual canto number. Well, really! Filiocht 16:20, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
- This is all becoming rather distasteful, it is a well known fact the one cannot sit on a bog, as a bog is something that Irish people fall into after drinking too much poteen (except for Filiocht, who is far to sensible), nor do I like the word toilet as in Bishonen's caption (Yes, I know I could have mentioned this aversion to the word toilet a month or so ago) to have a translation of the French at all is to patronise the reader by assuming they do not speak French, therefore I propose it is captioned in Irish Gaelic in its entirety as a salute to Rodin, who was not Irish, but probably would have liked to have been. Giano 17:28, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Nihilartikel
I'm not sure exactly what sort of linkage there should be between this article and "Nihilartikel", but I hope this mention on the talk page is a start. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:30, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
6 March 2005: recent improvements
28 February: Every culture article should have one: first reference to Plato's Republic! By Filiocht.
1 March: First footnote! By TheoClarke.
4 March: First use of the word "catalyst"! Another breakthrough by TheoClarke.
5 March: Latest historic update: precarious position of toilet paper holder during the French revolution! By ALoan.
--Bishonen | Talk 11:49, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)