Talk:Pentecostalism

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Whew! I am pooped! I need a date on the formal unification event, the great big with the foot-washing etc. It may have been 1997, not 1998. wiki wiki wiki!

Nice work. Two questions. What about the geographic spread of the pentecostal religion? Would it not be more proper to name the page pentecostalism?

Where do you get the 400 million figure from? The Hadden lecture says it's nine million. --LMS

Ha! Got 400 million from the web. I have seen estimates as high as 500 million. Either of these figures would have to include all of the charismatic subfamilies. The two new links on the page are excellent. Hadden's 9 million is US, and is definitely low. He only counts "established" churches. There are *lots* of independent congregations in this tradition. 400 million is probably high, even worldwide.

Pentecostalism is less a denomination than a family of beliefs and worship traditions. In a nutshell, add Acts 6 to the Nicene Creed and you have the basis of doctrine, add electric guitars, a drum set and (optionally) a brass section to the choir, presto, worship (Yes, can be very loud, as in "raise the roof" loud. Someone explained it to me once: "We don't believe Satan should have all the good music.") Pentecostalism might be a better name, maybe even Modern Pentecostalism. Somebody else can refactor, rename whatever, or I will do it later.

The spread is world-wide, but it appears to be growing fastest in the Americas.

Do you want to mention anything here about the charismatic movement? I believe this is basically pentecostal ideas and worship styles coming into other more "mainline" denominations. Also, do the figures include charismatics? That might be fair enough if you're just counting Christians who use drums and electric guitars and perhaps "speak in tongues", but it also runs the risk of double counting a lot of people, depending on how the numbers are used. --Wesley

I can't do it, because I don't have the numbers, but a better job needs to be done between distinguishing between the Pentecostal Church and the pentecostal movement. Something also should be mentioned about oneness pentecostalism (or whatever it's called), which has a different view of the Trinity than do "orthodox" Christians.

just copied the above discussion from the Pentecostal Talk page, since Pentecostal now redirects to Pentecostalism. Wesley

Picky point about the Toronto Blessing and the Vineyard Movement. The Toronto church that "housed" the Blessing WAS a Vineyard church into the mid-90s, when the leaders of Toronto and the leaders of the Vineyard could not agree on a variety of issues, including authority issues, prophet vs. pastor issues, things like this. The Toronto church is not a Vineyard anymore, and the Vineyard stakes out a place that blends features of pentecostalism and features of evangelicalism. I am going to double-check this, then update the entry to reflect this.Professor

So, I'm trying to reconcile these two sentences:

Most major Pentacostal churches also accept the corollary that those who don't speak in tongues have not received the blessing of the Holy Spirit. [...] The idea that one is not saved unless one speaks in tongues is rejected by most major Pentecostal denominations.

I think that either:

One of them is wrong
There's some subtle difference here between "receiving the blessing of the Holy Spirit" and "being saved"
There's supposed to be some implicit difference between "churches" and "denominations" (that is, "church" isn't being used as a synonym for "denomination", but for a congregation)

Anyway around it, it's kind of a confusing little couplet. --ESP 03:32, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Pat Robertson

Pat Robertson was removed by anonymous user 68.159.71.33 with the emphatic claim that he's not Pentecostal. I suppose some Pentecostals would not want to claim him, but that is not sufficient reason to remove him. I checked several sources that all said he was originally Southern Baptist, but is now of the Pentecostal pursuasion. So unless 68.159.71.33 (or someone else) can come up with more justifictation for the change, I will return his name to this page after a couple days. Pollinator 01:53, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Noted: no response. Pollinator 13:00, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Some points.

Pentecostalism is half a century older than Charismatics. Charismatism is a middle-class version of Pentecostalism, rejecting the obligation of speaking in tongues and the legalism.

Most Charismatics and quite some Pentecostals have turned neo-Evangelicals, and are specifically called neo-Pentecostals. Neo-Evangelicals are considered heretical to various degrees by orthodox, conservative Evangelicals, specially by Reformed Evangelicals.

I will modify the article accordingly if no one else does...

With regard to "Some points" above,

At the beginning of the article, it says, "Pentecostalism may be viewed as a subset of the Charismatic movement which may also include Catholic members." Is this true because of the number of Charismatics as compared to Pentecostals, or should this say, "Charismaticism, which may also include Catholic members, may be viewed as a subset of the Pentecostal movement"? The Pentecostal movement was around long before the Charismatic movement. Just wondering! Raina 07:56, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's a complex issue. As a Pentecostal, I personally view the two movements as separate but intertwined. They have many common features, but (by and large) they have very different historical roots. There has, of course, been a lot of interaction between the two movements over the years, and the line of demarcation is sometimes blurred. Nevertheless, I would not say that either movement is a subset of the other. Rather, I would sat that each movement is self-contained, but influences the other a great deal. I hope this helps. David Cannon 11:09, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Let's try the statements:

All Pentacostals are Charismatics -true as far as I know, so Pentacostals are a subset of Charismatics

All Charismatics are Pentacostals -not true, many exceptions including Catholic Charismatic Rmhermen 12:23, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

Imagine three circles intertwined. (eg the symbol on John Bonham's drums[1]) There you have a good representation of how Charismatics, Pentecostals and Evangelicals are related, but separate. They share a great deal in common, but I do not think you could call one a "subset" of the other without being unfair to everything. One Salient Oversight 13:21, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the definition of the word, charismatic, has changed in recent years. When I first heard of it, it was definitely something other than pentecostalism. What is considered, now, to be its definition, and what is the modern definition of Pentecostal? Raina 20:19, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am guessing that One Salient Oversight has a different definition of both Charismatic and Pentecostal than I but without further explanation I can't tell what it is. Having tried to read the Charismatic article hear is no real help. Does anyone follow what it is saying? The usage I am familiar with calls all who beleive in the ongoing practice of gifts as Charismatics, regardless of any other practices or beliefs. This would include all Pentecostals. Rmhermen 15:22, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

I think Rmherman is quite right at this point. I've been trying for months to come up with a definition of the difference between the two movements. Maybe it's just because it is really hard nowadays to work out the difference. Regardless, the article probably needs a major clean-up. One Salient Oversight 23:13, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Romania

I have removed Romania from the statistics section. An anonymous editor claimed that my statistics were inaccurate, and provided this source, and when I checked my original source, I found that I had mis-copied the percentage of the population (1.3) as the total Pentecostal population in millions. The error was mine, and I apologise. David Cannon 20:13, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Numbers

To the anonymous user who keeps on reverting the statistics to those from the 1994 edition of Operation World: that edition is 10 years out of date. The latest edition is the one published in 2000, on which these statistics are based. If you disagree with the statistics in this book, please provide an alternative - up to date - source for your claims. If you can provide a more recent source, we can discuss that, but please DO NOT use an older source. Thank you. David Cannon 19:24, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would (again) request our anonymous editor to stop using false sources. You say you got your latest figure of 50m from Johnson's 2001 Operation World - but page 3 of that source says 115m. The figure for Africa alone comes to more than 41m (page 21) and North America 21m (page 32) - these two continents alone have more than the 50m you claim. Factor in Latin America - 32m (page 34), Asia - 15m (page 41), Europe - 4m (page 52) and the Pacific - 3m (page 58), and your claims don't add up, according to the source you're claiming. I believe you are confused. You may dispute these statistics if you want to (they're not infallable) but please back up your claims with sources (post-2001) that can be checked. I WILL check any source you give me, as I have this one, and if you manufacture statistics out of thin air and MIS-attribute them to a particular source, I will keep on reverting you until you get tired. I'm serving notice that I myself will not get tired, so if you want to vandalize Wikipedia you're in for a marathon, not a sprint. David Cannon 12:34, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pentecostals who don't speak in tongues

User:68.89.219.152 removed a section that spoke about some Pentecostals not speaking in tongues for various reasons. I have reverted this because I think it is likely that some who call themselves Pentecostals do not speak in tongues for these reasons. Removing it is essentially stating that these people are not Pentecostals - which may be true for some people but not for everyone else. --One Salient Oversight 01:56, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Snakes?

Nothing about the handling of snakes? That's the funniest part.

Pentecostalism isn't a subset of Protestantism

IMO, Pentecostalism, while largely decendend from Protestantism is not a part of it. The theology is different, and most importantly, the internal workings of congregrations is very different. There is certainly more different between Pentecostalism and Protestantism than between Restorationism and Protestantism (which are treated as being quite seperate).matturn 13:34, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As a Pentecostal myself, I VERY strongly disagree. Frankly, I know hardly any Pentecostals who would endorse your opinion.David Cannon 22:38, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As a non-Pentecostal who has attended Pentecostal churches, I fully concur with David on this. The similarities are as follows:

A belief in the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (except for Oneness Pentecostals)
A belief in the substitutionary atonement of Christ
A belief that Baptism and the Lord's Supper are the only two sacraments (some Pentecostal churches would disagree on this)
A belief that those who place their faith in Jesus Christ are saved and are assured salvation.
A congregational church political model (usually).

--One Salient Oversight 00:02, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)