Talk:Dispensationalism
Separate section for tie to Judaism?
It strikes me as odd that all dispensationalists should be included with those who hold to a "special" tie to modern Judaism. While it is true that Jews are held to have a continuing role in God's work in history, it should not be stated that all dispensationalists view the current Israeli nation as an explicit example of that.--eleuthero 20:47, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I started out surprised by the claim that a post-millenialist could be listed as a dispensationalist (Edwards); but as I went to address this issue I found other things that I couldn't let go, and it all turned into a significant re-write of key sections. Mkmcconn 22:07, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
"Dispensationalism has had a number of (arguably) positive effects on Protestantism..." On what basis are they arguably positive? Additionally, the article assumes that an anti-Roman Catholic view is a negative. Personally I agree with the assessment that these effects are positive, but that assessment is not NPOV. Including the "(arguably)" doesn't really fix the problem. I removed the "(arguably) positive". This leaves the statements about the content and impact of the teaching intact, without statements as to its value.
In the paragraph which began with "On the other hand, it is a curious fact that dispensationalists tend..." I simply removed the curious fact bit and instead started the paragraph with "On the other hand, Dispensationalists tend..." I don't actually know if the remaining statement is true or not, but it is at least something that could be proven or backed up by referencing some action by Dispensationalists somewhere, whereas "curious fact" is just an opinion (which might be right or not, but it is opinion).
Later in the same paragraph it mentions that Jerry Falwell and evidently others "have asserted that the Antichrist will be a Jew". I assume that the implication is that the proponents of that position are anti-Semitic. I do not know if they are or not, but their position as stated in this article is not necessarily anti-Semitic. The Antichrist would have to be from some ethnic group, and the mere fact that someone comes from a nationality or ethnicity does not necessarily say anything at all about the entire group. If other statements made by the Dispensationalists show that they move beyond the mere statement that the Antichrist will be a Jew to suggest that reflects on Jews in general, the point would be much stronger. The reverse argument could easily be made that because (I assume) Dispensationalists believe that Jesus and most or all of the earliest apostles were Jews that Dispensationalists are pro-Jewish. It may be that the motivation for saying that the Antichrist will be a Jew is anti-Semitic, but the case is not made here well enough to tell either way. I'm not sure what to do with this, though, so for the moment I'm leaving it alone. Someone should clarify this section.
The next paragraph claims to discuss criticisms of Dispensationalism. However, not all of the criticisms are adequately explained. How specifically is an expectation that social conditions will decline a thing to be criticized? The same applies to distrust of the UN and similar organizations. Maybe the point made here is valid, but if so it isn't adequately presented. It would help to state what in the view of the critics makes these criticisms as opposed to observations about what Dispensationalists teach.
The statement regarding the Dispensationalist belief that peace will not be attained in the Middle East being inconsistent with the Sermon on the Mount is markedly POV, I think, at least as it reads now. I would like to hear an explanation of the inconsistencies. In the meantime I left it alone in the hopes that someone will expand on the criticism in a way that makes it clear that it is reporting on the criticism rather than presenting the view of the author of the article.
Finally, my understanding of the Dispensationalist view on the Jews is that it teaches that the only way to salvation is through Jesus, and that Jesus is the Messiah anticipated by Judaism. The position therefore is that in the end the Jews will accept Jesus as the Messiah. In that case, in the Dispensationist view the Messianic Jews are not a curiousity so much as a precursor of the future of the Jews. The idea is that Messianic Judaism is the completion of Judaism rather than really being a departure from it or even a replacement for it. I have not made any edits based on this, though, because I think it would require major changes to a couple of paragraphs, and I didn't want to do that without hearing about how I'm wrong first. EditAnon 07:41, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I left this alone for a while because I'm not sure I'm neutral on this point. However, I don't see the inconsistency between the two statements "Almost all dispensationalists reject the idea that a lasting peace can be attained by human effort in the Middle East" and "Blessed are the peacemakers". The dispensationalists would not claim that peacemakers are not blessed, merely that in the particular instance of conflict between Israel and its adversaries that conflict will not come until we reach the next stage of history. To me, there is no logical conflict between the two. I would like to be enlightened, though. I don't hold to the dispensationalist view here, but I don't see that it is inconsistent with the Sermon on the Mount. EditAnon 23:51, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Jesus presumably blessed peacemakers as an endorsement of human efforts to make peace; this is, of course, not the only statement of Jesus to that effect, only one of the most conspicuous. Dispensationalists teach that at least in this instance, human efforts to achieve peace are impossible. There is a general tendency for dispensationalists to be suspicious of the United Nations and other peace organizations, with their talk about "one world governments" and frequent resort to conspiracy theories. It moreover implies that Christians should look forward to an escalation of tensions in the region, since this may mean that their prophetic timetables are moving forward, and confirm the imminent Rapture and millennial kingdom. As such, in purely practical terms, dispensationalists have had a tendency to endorse Israeli militarism. Dispensationalist politicking seems predicated on the premise that we may as well get rolling towards Armageddon underway. The statement that dispensationalists have been criticized makes little sense without some sense of where the critics are coming from. Smerdis of Tlön 18:44, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It is probably a mistake to describe "date-setting" as an argument against dispensationalism. In fact, one of the major appeals of dispensationalism was that it reconciled the contradictory passages about Jesus' second coming. Jesus would come "like a thief in the night" to rapture the saints without warning, but a host of signs would precede the Battle of Armageddon when Jesus returned to cast down the Antichrist. Although American dispensationalists did expect the world to end soon they were generally very clear that no date could be set--remember that the first generation of American dispensationalists, people like James Brookes, were old enough to remember the Great Disappointment. I'm not a dispensationalist, but I wouldn't lay that particular error at their feet.
By the way, I'm a Ph.D. student writing my dissertation on dispensationalism. I would be interested in editing this page (and others on Darby, Scofield, etc.), but don't want to just change a bunch of stuff without warning. atterlep 15:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I would say that date-setting is, at minimum, something that many dispensationalists have done in the past, and it's something that's become associated with the movement. There are a number of books --- the best one I've read is called When Time Shall Be No More, but I don't have it handy and forget the author --- that collect the dates; there's another called 99 Reasons Why No One Knows When Jesus Will Return that collects several dispensationalist dates. Hal Lindsey's title is pretty damning in itself, I think. Smerdis of Tlön 18:37, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- This suggests to me that some of the criticisms listed as problems with dispensationalism are more criticisms of particular extrapolations from dispensationalism, rather than of dispensationalism itself. There isn't anything inherent in the dispensationalist view that requires any particular dates. Date setting is, however, a trap that a number of highly visible dispensationalists have fallen into, and any article on dispensationalism would be incomplete if it doesn't deal with date setting. That said, while the errors (assuming they are errors) of adherents to dispensationalism says something about the position, it does not necessarily address problems in the core position of dispensationalism itself unless the errors are somehow called for or inherent in the original position. I don't think that the date setting or peacemaker criticisms of dispensationalism are really closely related to the core of the theological position, although as criticisms of some views advanced by dispensationalists they do have some bearing on the topic. : EditAnon 14:52, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think these changes are better. The use of the Sermon on the Mount does seem like a pretty weak proof-text against dispensationalism. Oddly enough, it always seemed to me that Gal 3 discouraged dispensationalism, for there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ Jesus. According to dispensationalists, Jews and Gentiles who accept Jesus as Messiah and Savior have radically different fates: Jews spend the millenium on earth and Christians spend it in heaven. atterlep 0:22, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- On a purely notional level, I might agree. What makes dispensationalism scary is the impression that dispensationalists might believe that a mid-East Armageddon is both immanent and desirable, and might try to sway political events to force God's hand. In that sense, it's a pretty good argument. Smerdis of Tlön 19:09, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Miles, Grist, Moyers Chinese whispers
Is the Watt quote in Miles' book demonstrated to be bogus? Or just the Congress context Grist erroneously added? Or TBD? Alai 06:26, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Urban Legend
If this is an urban legend - shouldn't it be removed - I have not heard it before coming to this page and it is not notable enough to refute in an encyclopedic article Trödel|talk 13:23, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Surely you are kidding, right?--eleuthero 01:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Peace Talks
I, personally, am a dispensationalist, so I find the comment that "Blessed are the peacemakers" being contradictory to this position odd. You see, I was under the impression that the comming of the anti-christ was not particularly something that we should seek to avoid, but rather something that is going to happen and thus we should get ready beforehand. This means that while we might look at peace talks with a bit of trepidation and fear, we wouldn't try to PREVENT it, or seek to have said talks stop.
I mean, WE won't be around for the tribulation, and as mentioned, it's easy enough to avoid being around for the tribulation (if we the church do our jobs), and we get to come back AFTER the tribulation and that time will be the most fantastic thing imaginable. I mean, no more sorrow? That sounds pretty awesome to me. So why try to prevent the anti-christ by stopping peace talks? Besides, even if it were a bad thing, stopping the peace talks would be as impossible as making them succeede according to this view... the 2nd comming comes when God decides. If peace in the middle east is dependant on the 2nd comming, then God decides that too, despite our actions and efforts. 198.200.181.205 23:47, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I see this comment has already been made above (oops). Well, now there's a topic header for this discussion... all the stuff above is kinda disorganized and hard to find if you (like me) are glossing.
So that said, what can we do about this? I understand that wiki, being encyclopedic, needs to list positions, but I think this particular position needs to have the rebuttle position listed as well. The problem here being how to organize said rebuttle. As listed in the article right now, it seems difficult to insert an opposing view to the opposing view section, esspecially since this particular bit may require more than a single sentence explanation. 198.200.181.205 23:53, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- You see, I was under the impression that the comming of the anti-christ was not particularly something that we should seek to avoid, but rather something that is going to happen and thus we should get ready beforehand. Perhaps we should do what we can to assist the anti-christ in appearing. After all, it is inevitable, being foretold in prophecy, and his sooner arrival means the sooner arrival of the Lord. Tell you what: I'll handle starting wars and famines, while you invent a false world religion. Jesus will be so proud of us! We did it all to further His kingdom.
- This doesn't seem to me to be so much a criticism of dispensationalism as it is a criticism of some related positions that some dispensationalists might take. There isn't anything in the core ideas of dispensationalism that would suggest that God would be pleased with someone starting wars or false religions. EditAnon 14:52, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This sort of thing is exactly what gives me the willies about dispensationalism. Dispensationalist end times prophecy belief, in the end, is the doctrine that at least for the time being, and as far as we can tell, Satan is mightier than God. This excuses us from any duties we might otherwise have had to show charity to our neighbours, or to be the peacemakers that Christ blessed. -- Smerdis of Tlön 05:23, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- This is a fundamental misunderstanding of dispensationalism, albeit a common one. Was Satan mightier than God because God allowed Satan to torment Job? The dispensationalist view of the end times is that Satan is allowed to do certain things as a tool in God's overall plan. That doesn't make Satan mightier than God.
- More to the core of the peacemaker criticism, apparent peacemaking is different from real peacemaking. Dispensationalists say that the Anti-Christ will bring an apparent peace to the Middle East, but that the peace is a deception and short-lived. Not all who claim to be peacemakers really are, any more than Neville Chamberlain's proclamation of "peace in our time" averted World War II.
- Finally, one should not confuse a statement that something is inevitable with saying it is desirable. Jesus' statement that there would be wars and rumors of wars was not an endorsement of wars or rumors of wars. EditAnon 14:52, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Premillennial dispensationalism?
Isn't that the more precise term for the subject of this article? That is how it is usually referred to elsewhere. After all, there have been other dispensationalisms before Darby's.
In any case, I have created the new page "Premillennial dispensationalism", and have redirected it to this page.
Also, isn't the term "fundamentalist Christianity" (used in the first sentence of the article) POV? The more neutral term is "Christian fundamentalism". -- Hyperion 06:26, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I think you are mistaken. You have your terms reversed. There was no formal dispensationalism before Darby -- however, premillenialism may be traced back to some of the early church fathers. The appropriate contrast would therefore be between Dispensational premillenialism and Historic premillenialism. Jim Ellis 17:55, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
The NT church as a parenthesis
This tenet of dispensationalism is not merely saying that the people of OT times did not anticipate the NT church as suggested by User:Eleuthero; it is saying that according to dispensational theology, the NT church was a parenthsis (or intercalation) in God's plan which was not anticipated or prophesied about by the OT Scriptures -- and I quote, "dispensationalists have regarded the present age as a parenthesis unexpected and without specific prediction in the Old Testament," John Walvoord, The Millenial Kingdom (Zondervan, 1959) p.227. Jim Ellis 02:49, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
<-- signature? -- Good point, however, the article as written would seem to indicate God was not in on the plan either and had to create a stopgap measure to keep things running, which, to my knowledge, no dispensationalist is going to agree to with the possible exception of some who might hold to Open Theism (the two theologies would seem to be at odds however).--eleuthero 01:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Literal Hermeneutic
I reverted a sentence changed by User:Eleuthero. Here is why. Both Reformed Theology and Dispensationalism claim a "grammatical-historical" hermeneutic -- the term inserted by User:Eleuthero. However, the distinguishing aspect is the dispensationalist claim of consistently "literal" interpretation of OT prophecies referring to Israel. And I quote, "In other words, consistent literalism is the basis for dispensationalism," Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today (Moody Press, 1965) p. 97.
<--Always good to sign those entries there. -- There has been an update to the the Ryrie book now titled, Dispensationalism. Thank you for the correction, however, "consistent literalism" as in the quote, would be more appropriate than simply "literal". I felt, in making the initial change, that "literal" alone was an incomplete view of Dispensationalism. It holds to a literalism which avoids allegory / spiritualization but also allows for the normal literary sense of symbols/metaphors... --eleuthero 01:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Many Branches?
It would seem to me to be appropriate to view those who continue to hold to Chafer's Dispensationalism alone distinct from those who would identify with the clarifications made by Ryrie, and then there are those identify with Progressive Dispensationalism. You also have those who have taken an extreme apocalyptic view (such as you will find in some of the stuff on TBN - admittedly, not a developed theology like the other three). Some will argue for a chronological development scheme where Progressive Dispensationalism is merely the next incarnation of the theology, but since many would still hold to the traditional Dispensational viewpoint (be it the developed model by Ryrie or that presented by Chafer or what I have seen in Europe), this would appear to be inaccurate. Since both those who hold to the traditional (or "Revised" if you prefer Blaisings terminology) and the Progressives find many problems with some of the more pronounced apocalyptic viewpoints, it would seem appropriate to make the needed distinction in the article.--eleuthero 01:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)