Talk:Silesia

Earlier discussion:

Back to reversion war. Page is protected again. Earlier talk archived. Kosebamse 11:55, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Now we have 2 proposals of intro about Silesia, one suppoerted by Nico, John and partly by Szoepen, the other by Wik and me (caius2ga)

Intro proposal by Nico and John

How about:

Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and the northeastern Czech Republic. The historical region belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased in the later Middle Ages, and the province was a Habsburg ___domain from the 16th to the 18th century. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II most of Silesia was annexed by Poland, and the German population was expelled. The remainder of Silesia remained under Austrian control, and today forms part of the Czech Republic. In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as Ślonsk or Ślunsk.

Does anyone have any problems with this? john 08:35, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This seems fine to me, although I think also the German part (the Görlitz area) of the region should be mentioned (and with parts in Germany and the Czech Republic), as the Britannica does. -- Nico 08:47, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and with parts in Germany and the northeastern Czech Republic. Silesia belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased in the later Middle Ages, and the province was a Habsburg ___domain from the 16th to the 18th century. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II most of Silesia was annexed by Poland, and the German population was expelled. The remainder of Silesia remained under Austrian control, and today forms part of the Czech Republic. In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as Ślonsk or Ślunsk.

Not that I don't love arguing about this stuff, but couldn't everyone try to take a look at the revised opening paragraph presented above, and present an opinion on it? john 09:17, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Okay, how long do we have to wait to see if people object to the suggested new version? I think all of the folks who've been involved in the debate have made some change to this page in the last 24 hours or so, which suggests they've seen it, and none has commented, other than Nico. So, is this good? Would this meet everyone's objections. One would note that it has the virtue of not mentioning the very disputed ethnic composition of Silesia in the pre-1945 period, and that it at no point calls Silesia a part of Germany (as opposed to Prussia), while at the same time not denying any German claims. It also managed to be more specific than the previous version in other ways, mentioning the war of the Austrian Succession (Silesia's most famous moment on the world scene, surely) and the expulsion of the Germans after 1945. So, any problems? The language, can, of course, be modified if people object to any of the statements made. But this page is getting to be ridiculous, with numerous people checking in to continue fruitless historical arguments, and nobody actually commenting on what we're supposed to be doing, which is writing an encyclopedia article. If nobody has any objections in the next day or so, can we get someone to unprotect the page and then implement these suggested changes? john 09:22, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I have feeling that "ties with Poland decreased in Later middle ages" should be changed into "ties with Poland decreased over time". Ties with Poland were present even in XIX century. Also, don't youw ant to mention that Germans were majority in most of Silesia pre-1945? Also, not all German population was expelled in 1945/6- most of them.Som estay until 60s, some until today (although large part of today's 100.000 strong German minority is in fact descendants of those, who in 1945 were positively verified as Poles and only later found their Germannes anewszopen

Newest revision, incorporating Szopen's suggestions:

Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and with parts in Germany and the northeastern Czech Republic. Silesia belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased over time, and the province was a Habsburg ___domain from the 16th to the 18th century. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II nearly all of Prussian Silesia was annexed by Poland, and most of the German population (which had formed a majority prior to the war) was expelled. The remainder of Silesia remained under Austrian control, and today forms part of the Czech Republic. In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as Ślonsk or Ślunsk.

john 03:58, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Maybe we should remove "which had formed a majority prior to the war" and "The remainder of Silesia remained under Austrian control", and describe that in the history section instead? Nico 21:30, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and with parts in Germany and the northeastern Czech Republic. Silesia belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased over time, and the province was a Habsburg ___domain from the 16th to the 18th century. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II nearly all of Prussian Silesia was annexed by Poland, and most of the German population was expelled. In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as Ślonsk or Ślunsk.

Incorporating bohemian crown etc.

Silesia (Polish S´la?sk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and with parts in Germany and the northeastern Czech Republic. Silesia belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased over time, and the province became a possession of the Bohemian crown, and thus part of the Holy Roman Empire, in 1335, and passed to the Austrian Habsburgs in 1526. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II nearly all of Prussian Silesia was annexed by Poland, and most of the German population was expelled. In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as S´lonsk or S´lunsk.

The Polish portion of Silesia, which forms the bulk of the historic region, is now divided into the voivodships of Lower Silesian Voivodship (capital: Wroclaw), Opole Voivodship (capital: Opole), and Silesian Voivodship (capital: Katowice). The latter two are sometimes called Upper Silesia. The small portion in the Czech Republic is joined with Moravia to form the Moravian-Silesian Region of that country, while the Görlitz area now is a part of the German state of Saxony.

Caius2ga's version of the Silesia intro

This is the current version of the intro, based on earlier discussions, introducing all important and non-controvercial facts, accepted at least by Wik and caius2ga.

Silesia (Silesian: Ślonsk, Ślunsk, Polish: Śląsk, German: Schlesien, Czech: Slezsko) is a historical and geographical region with over 10 million population in southwestern Poland and the northeastern Czech Republic, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra river and along the Sudeten mountains. Upper Silesia is divided into 2 Polish provinces, Silesian Voivodship (capital Katowice) and Opole Voivodship (capital Opole), and one Czech province, the Silesian-Moravian Region (capital Ostrava). Lower Silesia is divided into 2 Polish provinces, Lower Silesian Voivodship (capital Wroclaw) and partly Lubusz Voivodship (capital Zielona Gora).

Because of its rich history the region has produced a unique cultural mix based on the local Silesian elements with strong Polish, Czech and German influences. Today the region is inhabited by Poles, Silesians, Germans, Czechs and Moravians. History of Silesia is connected with history of the four nations and countries: Poland, Bohemia and Germany.

In the middle ages Silesia was an object of Polish-Czech rivalry but also with many ethnic Germans settling here. It was a province of the Bohemian Kingdom from 1348 to 1742, although a small portion became Polish in 1443. In 1742-1763 most of Silesia was seized by Prussia in the Silesian Wars, and organized into the Prussian provinces Upper and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War I half of Upper Silesia, and after WWII most of Silesia was ceded to Poland. During WWII all of Silesia was part of Nazi Germany and the Germans murdered or expelled most Poles and Jews (see concentration camps, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Gross-Rosen); after WWII most of the Germans were expelled from Poland and Czechoslovakia (Expulsion of the Germans).

I would agree to that. --Wik 20:47, Nov 28, 2003 (UTC)

We have also to convince others, and wait a while for the comments and maybe some improvementsCaius2ga 20:53, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Is it OK to say History of Silesia is connected with history of the four nations and countries: Poland, Czechia(Bohemia), Germany and Austria.Caius2ga 20:54, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Lubusz voivodship is not currently considered part of Silesia, but an entity on its own. There is a reason why people were demonstrating for one Lubuskie voivodship and screaming we are not Poznaniaks, but Lubuszans.

Second, I don't think that intro is good. Tired of explaining why, though.

Third, FIVE nations: Hungary was involved (temporarily) in SIlesia too (Mathias COrvinus). Or SIX if countinng Moravia. Or SEVEN if counting PRUSSIA (after all, if separately Austria and Germany, then why not split Germany later. Mentioning Austria and Germany in pre-XIX century context is IMHO absurd) szopen

Germany and Austria - OK, I have returned to the version agreed by my and Wik.

Three books in my possession show maps and texts claiming that south portion of Lubuskie is part of Silesia today:

Stefan Mizia, Historia Śląska. Popularny zarys dziejów, Wydawnictwo Rzeka, Wrocław 2000
Lech Szafraniec, Śląsk Dolny, Górny, Opawski, (no date/publisher)
Śląsk, in: Encyklopedia Historii Gospodarczej Polski, Warszawa 1980

Caius2ga 13:37, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

False statements in the Nico version

Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) - BIASED title

the first line should also mention the region name in the Silesian language: Ślonsk, Ślunsk -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I am indifferent on this issue.john 21:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

When we not list the "Silesian" names first, it is because they are totally unknown, and because they are not mentioned at all in any other encyclopedia, e.g. Britannica or Encyclopedia.com. Other encyclopedias mention the English, the German, the Polish and sometimes the Czech name. I've already told you this, Grzes. Look at the Gdansk article! 12 names (Sic!) are mentioned in the introduction. It's idiotic, but at least they are not mentioned in the first sentence, as you demand. Slonsk and Slunsk are mentioned in the current version of the intro. -- Nico 22:44, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

In my opinion Wikipedia's goal is to be better than other outdated encyclopedias. I see no reason to exclude the Silesian people and the Silesian language from the Silesia article. -- Caius2ga 07:53, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and with parts in Germany and the northeastern Czech Republic. - FALSE and offending statement

Silesia is not olny historical but also a geographical and ethnographical region. Silesia lies in Poland and Czech Rep. and not in Germany (the goerlitz portion of Lusatia was only temporarily joined to Silesian province). Silesia lies IN Poland and Czechia, and not WHAT IS NOW - offending words. -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Since Silesia is a historic region, which has not always been part of Poland and the Czech Republic, it makes sense to say what is now. Especially since Polish borders have changed so much... john 21:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Silesia was always a divided region. It was divided between Poland and Czechia(Bohemia) in the middle ages and in modern times (boundaries changing). After 1742 it was divided between Prusssia, Czechia and Poland, after WWI it was divided between Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia, after WWII it was divided between Poland and Czechoslovakia, and now it is divided between Poland and the Czech Republic. I see no reason why why this article should concentrate on what Silesia WAS in Prussian times. This is ridiculous. Anyway the words what is now are bery offensive, and not used by any other reliable sources. -- Caius2ga 08:00, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

--- Silesia belonged to Poland in the middle ages. - FALSE statement

Silesia belonged to Poland in Middle Ages and in modern Times and it belongs now. Portions of Silesia belonged to Poland all the time. -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

What portions of it belonged to Poland all the time? It belonged to it in the middle ages. By the early modern period, connections to Poland were quite limited. A small part of Silesia returned to Poland in 1920, and the rest in 1945. We already noted that it is currently part of Poland, largely, so this is obviously not saying it is not part of Poland now. john 21:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Ties with Poland gradually decreased over time, - FALSE statement

Silesia had many ties to Poland (political, economical, eclessiastical, ethnic and cultural) and it is not true they were decreasing. It is true the ties were decreasing in some times, increasing on other times. -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hmm...so ties with Poland were the same in the 12th century as they were in the 19th? that's nonsense. john 21:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

and the province was a Habsburg ___domain from the 16th to the 18th century. - FALSE statement

Although it is true that most of Silesia belonged to the Habsburs, it fails to say about the Czech Kingdom. Significant portion of Silesia belonged to POland. -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The Czech kingdom has been added to a trial version above, I believe. That's fine with me. None of Silesia remained part of Poland after 1335, though, except in the Polish ecclesiastical province.

You are wrong. Auschwitz, Zator were seized in XV century and belonged to Poland up to partitions. Also, in times Polish kings with Polish everything administrated vast areas of Silesia (in XV-XVI entury) szopen

In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. - FALSE statement

Silesia was seized in the three Silesian wars - this statement is misleading. -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

It certainly was not. Frederick was given the whole of Silesia (except for Austrian Silesia, which he never got) by Maria Theresia after the first war ended in 1742. She tried to recover it in two further wars, but was not successful. (Actually, it's possibly he won somewhat more territory in the 2nd Silesian War, but the conquest was definitely complete by 1745. john 21:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. - FALSE statement

this part of Silesia was called the Silesian province until WWI. After WWI it was divided into the provinces of Lower Silesia and Upper Silesia. portions of both provinces were ceded to Poland and Czechoslovakia. -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

None of it was ceded to Czechoslovakia, which was formed entirely out of Austro-Hungarian territory. Part of Upper Silesia was ceded to Poland. I was not aware that any of Lower Silesia was. In any event, this is a minor issue. john 21:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

After World War II nearly all of Prussian Silesia was annexed by Poland, and most of the German population (which had formed a majority prior to the war) was expelled. - FALSE and BIASED statement

It is false to say about the German majority, which cannot be proved at any time. Although before WWII there was a German majority in the German portion of Silesia, there was a Polish majority in the whole region. Additionaly it very biased to ignore Poles and Jews expelled and murdered ny the Nazis during WWII -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The German census of 1905 certainly says there was a German majority. And we are not talking about things that happened during WWII - we specifically say the Germans were a majority before the war (as you previously demanded). john

Actually I've earlier proposed not mentioning the expulsions of the Germans in the introduction, and I still have no problems with moving this to the history section. It was szopen who proposed to mention this. Nico 22:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The remainder of Silesia remained under Austrian control, and today forms part of the Czech Republic. - FALSE statement

There were portions of Silesia outside the Prussian controll which belonged to Poland and Bohemia (in personal union with Habsburgs Austrian ). The Habsbug part of Silesia was called the Czech/Bohemian Silesia long into the 19th century. In 1920 it was divided between Poland and Czechoslovakia. Additionally Czechoslovakia took part of the German Silesia. -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

None of it belonged to Poland. In any event, it was certainly called Austrian (as opposed to Prussian) Silesia. And Czechoslovakia did not take any of German Silesia. john

In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as Ślonsk or Ślunsk. - FALSE statement

In standard Polish and Polish dialects in Silesia the name of the province is always Śląsk. These names nentioned here: Ślonsk and Ślunsk are the names of the region in the Silesian language, which is constanly ignored and vandalised by Nico. -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Again, I absolutely don't care about these Silesian language/dialect issues. john 21:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

No one except Silesian consider it separate language. In fact linguists are saying that some old-Polish features are better preserved in "Silesian" than in standard Polish.szopen

To summarize: ALL statements in the Nico version are FALSE and should be removed -- Caius2ga 13:31, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

It's not a Nico version. it was my version (editing a compromise version worked out by Szopen and Nico). And your definition of false is highly subjective. john 21:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)