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Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Sanaani

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This is an archived version of this page, as edited by SharabSalam (talk | contribs) at 14:33, 4 July 2019 (Correction. That's not how you write Wikipedia.). It may differ significantly from the current version.
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submitted verification final decision

This language has been verified as eligible.
The language is eligible for a project, which means that the subdomain can be created once there is an active community and a localized interface, as described in the language proposal policy. You can discuss the creation of this language project on this page.

Once the criteria are met, the language committee can proceed with the approval and will verify the test project content with a reliable neutral source, such as a professor or expert.

If you think the criteria are met, but the project is still waiting for approval, feel free to notify the committee and ask them to consider its approval.

A committee member provided the following comment:

Please contribute to the test project. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code ayn (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Sanʽani Arabic Language name in English
Language name صنعاني Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q1686766 - item has currently the following values:
 Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality no indication Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL ayn.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name ويكيبيديا "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo File:... This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Asia/Sanaa "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.

Proposal

The languages in Yemen are diverse and unique, sadly these languages and dialects they do not have a proper documentation, Sanaani Arabic is one of these languages. this language has a notable amount of Ethiopian, Persian, Indian, Old South Arabic phrases. Usually, Yemeni Arabic has phrases that can not be translated to other equivalent word in Standard Arabic. people in Yemen write as they talk so the proposal of Sanaani Wikipedia will be a gate of knowledge for people who can not write or speak Standard Arabic.

http://multitree.org/codes/ayn

http://www.joshuaproject.net/languages.php?rol3=ayn

Discussion

  • Hi, I am from Yemen. The Sana'ani dialect is spoken by Northern Yemenis and it is understandable to almost all of the Arabs. The few words that are from different languages can be counted by hand fingers. The differences between Sana'ani dialect and Arabic is the sound of the letters not the words. For example, in Sana'a the letter ج is pronounced in a different way than other Arabic dialects as well as the letter ق and the letter ص. I would suggest not to create this project because it would be a waste of time. Since I am a Yemeni I can say that 98-99% of Sana'ani Arabic use Arabic words but as I said it's how they pronounce the letters. There are also some differences in some Arabic suffixes and prefixes that not only exist in Sana'ani Arabic but also in many Arabic dialects such as changing the letter Sin to Shin in the some words like "I will do"= "Ana Sha'afa'al" in the standard Arabic it would be "Ana Sa'afa'al". So it doesn't pass this condition "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language."
I guess if there is a language that is not understandable in Yemen it would be the Mahri language not the Sana'ani. There are also Modern South Arabian languages like Socqtri language etc.--SharabSalam (talk) 00:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's been a lot of argument over Arabic lects. We tend to consider languages with separate ISO 639-3 codes as being separate languages, as an external source that avoids much of the argument.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:29, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Prosfilaes Per Language proposal policy having a saperated ISO is one criteria. There is another criteria which you ignored which is "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language."
Ignoring a policy to "avoid arguments" is asinine.--SharabSalam (talk) 05:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Since SIL created an ISO 639-3 code, we have a W:RS saying that Sanaani is sufficiently unique. It's not ignoring the policy; it's using a neutral source to set a presumption. Throwing around words like "asinine" is not helpful to discussion.--Prosfilaes (talk) 08:09, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, and I believe that there should still allow projects that use dialects of Arabic, if they're having differents from standard Arabic, since not all Arabic-speaking countries are always following Shariah Law. --117.13.95.200 08:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't say that Sana'ani language is "sufficiently unique". The criteria is clear and it is a saperated criteria. It is a dialect in Arabic and it is different from the standard Arabic only in the phonetic pronunciation of the letters. BTW I am not like against this proposal. It would be awesome to have a Yemeni Wikipedia. I am just trying to help and not to make you guys make a mistake. Also I don't know why it says Yemeni Arabic when the proposal is about the Sana'anite Arabic not the Yemeni Arabic in general. Yemeni Arabic could be Tihamah Arabic, Taizi Arabic, Ibbi Arabic. The Yemeni society is so isolated and therefore there are a lot of dialects/languages within the Yemeni language. The proposal is about Sana'ani Arabic but it is using Yemeni Arabic code. So I guess we need to fix this first. Reply to the IP: I have no idea how Shariah law is related to this discussion. Could you please explain more?.--SharabSalam (talk) 09:01, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also per en:Sanʽani Arabic it is a dialect. I can give tons of RSs that says Sana'ani is a dialect.--SharabSalam (talk) 09:09, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is just an information I have: I have traveled to many Arabic countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Syria etc. I have never seen a country that has so many dialects like. Yemen. Currently there are only few Yemeni dialects that are studied. I was born in a village that is called Shar'ab As Salam. We have at least 12 dialects that I know. They are grammatically different and completely different pronouncition. That is because of how the Yemeni society is isolated from eachother due to the mountainous geology of Yemen, lack of transportation, tribalism and the diverse history. From one km to other you will find a completely different dialect. Even for example in Hebrew the Yemenite Hebrew has also many dialects such as the Adeni Hebrew, the Sharabi Hebrew, the Sana'ani Hebrew etc.--SharabSalam (talk) 10:07, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per Language proposal policy#Requisites for eligibility:
    • The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language.
    • The language of the proposal has a sufficient number of fluent users to form a viable contributor community and an audience for the content.
Can you explain how "Wikipedia Sanaani" met this condition? Also, I don't know why should we re-try "Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia" experience? so I Oppose this new project! --Alaa :)..! 10:32, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The establishment of a Yemeni Wikipedia is not acceptable to all who speak Arabic, we Arabs all use the standard Arabic language in educational curricula and in the news, newspapers, newspapers ... etc. There is no one who uses his dialect in writing, because it has no rules for it. The only use of dialects is to speak only between people, and in writing we do not use the classical Arabic. In the past, Wikipedia was created by an Egyptian, and this caused many problems in the Arabic Wikipedia. Even the Egyptians themselves rejected this. Some of them even thought that this is a decree from Wikipedia to demolish the Arabic language that is understood by all Arabs to make them stay away from their mother tongue. We, as Arabs, reject any idea that harms Arabic, and all of us have achieved only Arabic Wikipedia. --عبد الله (talk) 10:32, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Arabic Accents and dedicates are NOT used in writing, they are not languages of literal or scientific works! They are just Spoken and its not like a Levantine or Egyptian or Iraqi Arab can't understand each other's accents, and its not that foreigners seek out specific accents to learn them. The Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia is still seen as a joke by the Egyptians themselves, and after several years the only major content that grew in it was related to pornography. We as an Arab Wikipedians don't accept to retry the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia experience. I totally Oppose this new projectباسم (talk) 10:51, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The Local dialects are not separate languages. If Wikipedia creates a project for each dialect we will have tons of failure projects like the Egyptian project. --Dr-Taher (talk) 10:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Let me speak in my Arabic language.

كما تعلمون لكل لغة قواعد، والذي تتحدثون عنه لهجة وليست لغة وليس لها قواعد تستند إليها بل هي مجرد لهجة يتحدث بها فئة قليلة من الناس وفي الوطن العربي يوجد مئات اللهجات المختلفة ولكن اللغة الرسمية والتي يستخدمها الناس في الدراسة وفي المعاملات الرسمية هي اللغة العربية إضافة إلى بعض اللغات اللاتي تسمى لغات وليس لهجات كاللغة الكردية مثلا، ولو أردتم إنشاء موسوعة جديدة فاختاروا لغة وليس لهجة. علما أن هذا المشروع سيؤثر سلبا على ويكيبيديا العربية ويساهم في التفكير بإنشاء مشاريع أكثر تعتمد على لهجات وليس لغات وفي الآخر لدي سؤال: هل هناك فرق بين الإنجليزية في بريطانيا وغيرها من الدول مثل أمريكا أو أستراليا ولو كان هناك فرق فالمرجع في الاختلاف هو القاعدة Grammar وهذه اللهجة ليس لها قواعد ولذا لا يجوز إنشاء مشروع بها. ضد إنشاء هذا الموقع.

Oppose. This Local dialect are not separate languages and not used in writing, and has no Grammar it is not a language to create a project for it, if we create this project, we will have a lot of failure projects like the Egyptian project. --أبو هشام السوعان (talk) 11:42, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It is not true to separate the dialects from the original language because of the existence of extraneous vocabulary or the difference of the pronunciation system. The people of sanaa use the classical Arabic language in writing, creating a special language for them is a big mistake and will fail.Philip.SY (talk)
  • Comment Well, this is the Absurdism! and lamentable moment in the history of our WIKIMEDIA :( -- صالح (talk) 13:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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