Talk:Brazilian jiu-jitsu
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Recommendations (First Draft)
The purposes of these recommendations are to:
- plan a layout and structure for the article to facilitate orderly and mutually agreed upon development;
- discuss maintaining a neutral point of view especial with regarding to other martial arts;
- improve the quality of the content;
- explain what Aesopian is going to be doing to this article unless someone gives him a good reason not to. ;-)
Note: Obviously, these are just recommendations.
If you disagree with anything writen here, you are in no way obligated to follow these recommendations; this is Wikipedia after all. I do ask though that if you do not want to follow these recommendations that you please leave a comment as to why. These recommendations were written with the best of intentions in the direction of following all standards and policies set by Wikipedia and community at large. Any and all comments on and changes to these recommendations are highly appreciated and encouraged.
Outline and Structure
Below is a proposed structure for the article. In this first draft, specifics and details were intentionally omitted to avoid overdrawing the scope of these initial recommendations. It is hoped that other Wikipedians will contribute to this outline themselves, adding and subtracting from it until a concensus agreement is reached on which sections are needed and which are not.
Expect this list to be modified and expanded in later versions of these recommendations, and feel free to make these changes yourself.
- Introduction
- History
- Uniform
- Grading
- Techniques
- General strategy
- List of techniques
- Training methods
- Drills
- Competition
- Rules
- Notable organizations
- Notable schools
- Notable individuals
- References
- External links
Achieving and maintaining NPOV
As with most martial arts, and maybe especially with Brazilian jiu jitsu, comparisons to other arts seem inevitable and cause the most violations of NPOV. The safest approach appears to be avoiding such comparisions, or keeping them relevant and to a minimum.
With our article however, there are several arts we cannot avoid as they have historical significance to the development of Brazilian jiu jitsu. These are judo, jiu jitsu and Luta Livre. Whatever is written about these arts should give their relationship to Brazilian jiu jitsu, any major events involving the two (i.e. major fights), how they differ on a technical level, differences between training methods, the difference of competition rules, etc. Special care needs to be taken to avoid personal statements about the superiority or inferiority of any of these arts.
Comparisons to other unrelated arts such as Tae Kwon Do are not really needed. It is the observation of the author that such comparisons usually serve no purpose other than promoting Brazilian jiu jitsu while devaluating the other art. If someone wants to know the differences between Brazilian jiu jitsu and Tae Kwon Do, they can read the article on one then on the other.
Don't take all this to mean that it is impossible to show that one art is better than another while still maintaining NPOV, but such decisions should be made by the reader after he has been presented with the facts and the arguments on all sides, not by opinionated comments of the authors.
Improving quality of content
Agreeing on a single spelling
As seems to be an issue with the word "jiu jitsu" anywhere you go, it has a half dozen different spellings. Within the article on Brazilian jiu jitsu itself, we have it written "Jiu Jitsu", "Jiu-Jitsu" and "jujitsu". Seeing as this is still up for debate in the jiu jitsu article itself, I don't know if we should make judgment on the issue yet, but I thought it would be a good point to keep in mind.
- What spelling would a Brazilian practitioner use when writing in his native language? Brasileira de jiu jitsu or something? Since this is an Brazilian art, I don't think it is important to use the correct Japanese spelling jūjutsu, that I'm advocating for articles related to traditional Japanese martial arts. Several other Wikipedians (see User:Chameleon's writings) maintain that since this is an English language encyclopedia, the most prevalent form in English should be used, but I'm not very keen on that policy myself. Especially in this case, where the supposedly "correct" English version jujitsu (or what was it?) is a historical misromanization. jni 15:18, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Pictures
Pictures of someone in uniform and someone in competition would be a wonderful addition.
Blame all this on Aesopian
These recommendations are entirely open to change and correction. Just have at it or and leave a comment, and I'll be happy to work it out with you. So you know, I am planning on reworking the article myself to agree with the recommendations as they stand now.
Thanks for reading. Thanks even more if you contribute.
Aesopian 04:40, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
History
Some important points in the history that are currenting lacking:
- Clear explainations of who Maeda was, what he studied and what he taught the Gracies. More information available at:
- Address the issue of Maeda actually teaching a form of judo.
- Clearer explaination of the development of Brazilian jiu jitsu as an independent martial art, such as Helio frailty and inclination towards ground fighting, and its history in Brazilian Vale tudo.
- Helio's fame as a professional fighter.
- Helio's fights against Japanese judoka Kato and Masahiko Kimura. Information can be found at:
- http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm (Near end of article)
- http://www.judoinfo.com/helio.htm
- Contention with Luta Livre
- The Gracie Challenge
- The creation of sport jiu-jitsu rules and competitions.
Aesopian 19:46, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Comments from inside article
Below is the content that was commented out of the article (with HTML comments). I'm moving it here so I don't have to worry about navigating between them while working on the page.
--Aesopian 19:28, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Comment: I would have just deleted the follow bit on Taekwondo, but I felt I would leave it until there is some agreement on the Talk page about handing this type of POV content. Aesopian
This is very different to many sport-oriented systems (WTF Taekwondo is the most often cited example for this) where the student is tested every few weeks and awarded their black belt in 1.5 to 2 years without ever testing their actual combat effectiveness against other fighters. This makes for the debatable practice within these styles of awarding black belts to children. In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, the belt is a ranking of a fighter's skill as demonstrated in head to head contests and tournament competition. (see also Kyokushin Kai karate)
A martial art by definition is the art of war. In war, the enemy must be dominated and in the end, stopped or eliminated. Playing tag for points is fine as a sport but in the end, a real fight does not stop for points to be awarded. A real fight rarely stops after the first punch or kick. In a real fight, the opponents will usually end up on the ground.
dead wrong and inappropriate (so much for the NPOV!), the whole tone of this entry is unprofessional and, sadly, gives credence to the "thug" stereotype that BJJ is stuck with, but I'll just comment out the outright inaccuracies for the time being
Both BJJ and Judo originated from traditional Japanese Jujitsu. Both are very similar with possibly the most glaring difference as follows. In Judo, the throws are emphasized. In BJJ, the submission is king. This is not to say there are no submissions in Judo or that there are no throws in BJJ simply that the training emphasis is different for both. Also, in Judo, a shoulder pin is a valid end of a fight. In BJJ, there are only 3 possible endings to a fight - knockout, physical damage rendering the opponent unable to continue, or making the opponent quit. This last option would only be offered to opponents in training or competition not in actual combat where the techniques would be applied to completion.
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a proven, combat effective martial art and may indeed be one of the last true martial arts in existence.
Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!
Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art
brazilian jiu-jitsu and/or gracie jiu-jitsu
i just added back into the article the recent deletion of the phrase , "also known as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (GJJ)" from the opening paragraph. in the early 90s when i first learned this martial art, it was always called gracie jiu-jitsu. it was not until it started gaining much popularity from the ufc and other ppv events that the more general brazilian jiu-jitsu term came into widespread use (among martial artist and fans anyway). i think it is important for an article about brazilian jiu-jitsu to mention that it is also known to many as gracie jiu-jitsu. at the very least it needs to say that this was the original name because as the article already mentions it was developed by and in the begining thaught mostly gracie family members. uri budnik 09:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I think it has grown past this exclusive moniker as other sources have contributed greatly to the development of the sport and art of BJJ. The article already references the Gracies as the originators in the history section. --Malathion 20:01, 9 July 2005 (UTC)