Talk:Human/Archive 26

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When Humans Became Humans

Latest comment: 19 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

(text below moved from article David D. (Talk) 13:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC))

An interesting Article that I read talks abot how the human mind began to devlop and change. Meaning that humans actually began to talk and creat things that they would be able to use. The Article also states that their needs became diffferent their needs gradually began to change because of new social conditions, enviromental change, or competition from non modern species. The only question that this aarticle asks is "When, and where, was human culture born?" They believe that 40,000 years was the turning point to human creativity.

A site that Archeologist found was the Blombos Discoveries because this is were they found tools that were finely polished. The archeologist asked themselves: While the tools had o be finely shined and? They believe they did this because they were depicting things they liked and did not like. And like always scientists have to find a phrase that represents their finding and it was symbolic thinking.

Reference:

Wilford, N. J., "When Humans Became Humans." New York Times 02/26/02: Pg. 1,5

Hmm.. thats abit deep for me... Sam Spade 20:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not endorsing it. I just thought it would be harsh to delete it outright from the main article since it seemed to be a good faith edit.

There will always be time to make improvements to the article. At this point I would advise to stay on purpose, do the final touches and submit to FAC. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 23:44, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. It's looking pretty good at the moment. You have dealt with all my initial concerns. I wonder if the invasive species category is a joke? Anyone know the history of that? I'm not sure if humans are regarded as invasive species. In my mind this usually applies to a species brought in from another continent in a more modern context. I would have thought humans migrated to all continents. 'Invading species' might well be appropriate ;) David D. (Talk) 23:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Evolution and Creation

Latest comment: 19 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Banno, it is probably true that creationism doesn't deserve its own section, the text that is there doesn't really say much. I'd have no objection to having it deleted unless radically improved. However, I can't see the justification of lumping it together with the evolution section. The evolution text is quite a good description of human evolution and so plonking a few general comments about creationism on the end of it, seems to me to be confusing and inappropriate. Ashmoo 05:06, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

How about a large scale rearrangement along the lines of below. I have moved the creation section from evolution into a lead section on origins in culture. This seems like a good transition from science to culture without losing any material. We could even expand the origins section without it looking strange in the biology section. Note I have not rewritten anything! I just moved the text around a bit. If no one objects i will go ahead and make this change on the main page. David D. (Talk) 16:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea. Do it. Then we can work on particular issues with the existing text. Ashmoo 23:22, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Biology

These sections cut for clarity!!

Evolution

The study of human evolution encompasses many scientific disciplines, but most notably physical anthropology and genetics. The term "human", in the context of human evolution, refers to the genus Homo, but studies of human evolution usually include other hominids and hominines, such as the australopithecines.

Biologically, humans are defined as hominids of the species Homo sapiens, of which the only extant subspecies is Homo sapiens sapiens. They are usually considered the only surviving species in the genus Homo, although some argue that the two species of chimpanzees should be reclassified from Pan troglodytes and Pan paniscus to Homo troglodytes and Homo paniscus respectively, given that they share a recent ancestor with man. [1]

Full genome sequencing resulted in these conclusions: "After 6 [million] years of separate evolution, the differences between chimp and human are just 10 times greater than those between two unrelated people and 10 times less than those between rats and mice." Chimp and human DNA is 96% identical

It has been estimated that the human lineage diverged from that of chimpanzees about five million years ago, and from gorillas about eight million years ago. However, in 2001 a hominine skull approximately seven million years old, classified as Sahelanthropus tchadensis, was discovered in Chad and seems to indicate an earlier divergence from the ape lineage.

Two prominent scientific theories of the origins of contemporary humans exist. They concern the relationship between modern humans and other hominids:

The single-origin or "out of africa" hypothesis proposes that modern humans evolved in Africa and later replaced hominids in other parts of the world.

The multiregional hypothesis proposes that modern humans evolved at least in part from independent hominid populations.

Human evolution is characterised by a number of important physiological trends:

expansion of the brain cavity and brain itself, which is typically 1,400 cm³ in volume, over twice that of a chimpanzee or gorilla. The pattern of human postnatal brain growth differs from that of other apes (heterochrony), allowing for an extended period of social learning in juvenile humans. Physical anthropologists argue that a reorganisation of the structure of the brain is more important than cranial expansion itself;
canine tooth reduction;
bipedal locomotion;
descent of the larynx, which makes speech possible.

How these trends are related and what their role is in the evolution of complex social organisation and culture are matters of ongoing debate.

While little attention is generally given to humanities future evolution, transhumanism and eugenics involve the intentional crafting of that process. Nazi Germany made an organised attempt at selective breeding and the extremination of those they deemed inferior. The lebensborn program was one example of that.

Human extinction refers to the possibility that the human species may become extinct, either through its own actions (for example, because of pollution or the use of nuclear weapons) or because of a natural disaster. This is closely related to religious eschatology.

Intelligence

da Vinci's Vitruvian Man

see below: Human Consciousness

Most humans consider their species to be the most intelligent species in the animal kingdom. Certainly, humans are the only technologically advanced animal. Along with neural complexity, the brain-to-body-mass ratio is generally assumed to be a good indicator of relative intelligence. Humans have the second highest brain-to-body-mass ratio or encephalization quotient (EQ) of all animals, with the tree shrew having the highest [2], and the bottlenose dolphin very similar to humans. (Sharks have the highest for a fish; and the octopus has the highest for an invertebrate.)

The human ability to abstract may be unparalleled in the animal kingdom. Human beings are one of five species to pass the mirror test – which tests whether an animal recognises its reflection as an image of itself – along with chimpanzees or bonobos, orangutans, and dolphins. Human beings under the age of four usually fail the test.

Culture

File:Cavehand.jpg

Cave art

Culture is defined here as a set of distinctive material, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual features of a social group, including art, literature, lifestyles, value systems, traditions, rituals, and beliefs.

Culture consists of at least three elements: values, social norms, and artefacts. A culture's values define what it holds to be important. Norms are expectations of how people ought to behave. Artefacts – things, or material culture – derive from the culture's values and norms together with its understanding of the way the world functions.

Origins

Essentially every culture has its characteristic origin beliefs. Creationism or creation theology is the belief that humans, the Earth, and the universe were created by a supreme being or deity. The event itself may be seen either as an act of creation (ex nihilo) or the emergence of order from preexisting chaos (demiurge). Many who hold "creation" beliefs consider such belief to be a part of religious faith, and hence compatible with, or otherwise unaffected by scientific views while others maintain the scientific data is compatible with creationism. Proponents of evolutionary creationism may claim that understood scientific mechanisms are simply aspects of supreme creation. Otherwise, science-oriented believers may consider the scriptural account of creation as simply a metaphor.

Language

From top-left, "human" in English, Japanese, Traditional Chinese, Korean, Hebrew and Greek

Values, norms and technology are dependent on the capacity for humans to share ideas. The faculty of speech may be a defining feature of humanity, probably predating phylogenetic separation of the modern population. (See Proto-World language, Origins of language.) Language is central to the communication between humans. Some scientists argue that non-human animals are able to use language too, and that non-human primates are able to learn human sign language [3] [4] (pdf). Language is central to the sense of identity that unites cultures and ethnicities.

The invention of writing systems some 5000 years ago, allowing the preservation of speech, was a major step in cultural evolution. Language, especially written language, is sometimes thought to have supernatural status or powers. (See Magic, Mantra, Vac.)

The science of linguistics describes the structure of language and the relationship between languages. There are estimated to be some 6,000 different languages, including sign languages, used today.

various

Latest comment: 19 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

File:Old Hmong Man (Sapa Vietnam).jpg

Old Hmong man, Sapa, Vietnam

A man with a full beard.

First of all, regarding the above, nobody should be making major deletions prior to consensus. I've not worked on this article all this time to see it hacked to bits in a flurry of edits. Secondly, I think this hmong guy would look bad on the hmong page (where btw he is not present). WHEELER on the other hand is a key player on the beard page.

Pixel count or no, I insist on the highest quality for this page at this time. The new fetus image is very nice, I might add. Sam Spade 21:39, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Sam, the major deletion (rarrangement) that I proposed above is on this talk page for the purpose of reaching a consensus. I have not touched the main page. I take it you do not like the change since you say hacked to bits in a flurry of edits. What specifically do you find objectionable about these edits? Bear in mind that this paragraph will generate a lot of heat when it goes up for FAC. It is important to find the best compromise with regard to its ___location in the article.

With regard to the Hmong man I like the fact he has wrinkles as well as grey hair and possibly missing teeth. WHEELER, while having grey hair, has relatively few wrinkles. If this picture is to represent 'old' then the Hmong man, or similar, would seem more preferable. David D. (Talk) 22:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I was trying to represent "human" "beard" and pleasing to the eye. That hmong guy does none of those. As per the proposed deletions, I oppose them in general, but would certainly agree to a lesser version. Sam Spade 23:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh the beard, i missed the point i thought it was supposed to represent old. Are beards even mentioned in that section? Wouldn't that be more appropriate in body image? With regard to 'deletions', i'm not sure which deletions you are referring to. Nothing was deleted, just rearranged. What is the lesser version you have in mind? Are we possibly missunderstanding each other here?David D. (Talk) 23:50, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

What is the fixation with the bearded man? :) The idea was to depict life cicle, from embryo to childhood to mature and elderly. I will keep looking for a better image. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 01:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

POV status

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Surely this page violates POV rules? After all, most (if not all) of us editing are humans ourselves. How about the view of dogs towards humans? Geese don't really count, they treat us with indifference.

Don't be so ruff on us. Dogs are people too!!! >;-o) — RDF ^talk 03:05, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I will ask my beagle what she thinks and report back, is hse says anything that is NPOV :) ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 05:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I should ask my dog... Don't tell her I said this, but I think she's slightly inbred

the cave

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

the "Plato's cave" illustration doesn't make sense. The human figure seems to be contemplating its own blurred shadow, which isn't what the parable is about at all. Plus, the concept is not even mentioned in the text, so I'm wondering what the image is doing here at all. 08:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I wondered the same, and wouldn't object if you deleted it. Sam Spade 14:53, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Mee to... I will delete.≈ jossi fresco ≈ 15:02, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Religious symbols

Latest comment: 19 years ago23 comments4 people in discussion

Various religious symbols

I prefer the original version without the Lotus. That version was carefuly rendered as a high-res duo-tone PNG file, suitable for print and it is better balanced. This new verson includes a low res image of a the symbol of Ayyavazhi, a Tamil monistic hindu sect. I propose to revert to previous version. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 15:01, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't have a strong objection, but I let User:Vaikunda Raja know, so he might be commenting shortly. As a general note, I'd rather have a superior image than high pixel content, when such a choice is necessary. Sam Spade 17:04, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Any number of symbols could be represented, and many are not. The way it looks now, the Ayyavazhi symbol appears to be emphasized, which is inappropriate. If that particular symbol stays, then it should be rendered in the same style as all the others. An equal number of symbols in each rows also is more balanced. I'd say remove one or add more. — RDF ^talk 17:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the lotus is over empahsised due to the different style i.e. not black and white but shades of grey. I also agree, for symmetry, that there should be an equal number of symbols per rowl. If more are needed then add an extra column or row. David D. (Talk) 18:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Comment: I'm actually surpried the swastika did not make it into the top nine religious symbols. It has avery interesting history, even before the Nazi's. May be this would be too controversial? David D. (Talk) 17:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Just like the languages depicted, this is nothing like a list of the "top 9". Its just a sampling of divergent styles. If we wanted this to be a "fair and balanced" list, we'd need to start over, and yes, the swastika would definitely be included. So would some sort of yoruba or other animist symbol maybe like this? ;). Have a look @ adherents.com. Sam Spade 19:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I shouldn't have used the phrase "top nine" since I was not meaning with respect to fair and balanced i.e. top nine religions should be represented. I was thinking more along the lines of most impact to society. The swastika seems to be used in many different religions, so with regard to balance it's probably a good one too. I have no strong opinion here, but I thought I would throw this out there since you are discussing this topic.

Off topic here, but did you think more about the creation evolution idea above (re: no deletions it's a rearrangement)? This will certainly come up again when it goes to FAC. David D. (Talk) 19:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

My comment about balance had nothing to do with "fairness or representativeness." Having a 3X3X4 image for an arbitrary sample of symbols is visually unbalanced and distracting. — RDF ^talk 19:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Comment:I too found uncomfortable when I placed the symbol of lotus due to the grey shade which makes it different. I didn't take it seriously. Sorry for that. But my suggestion is not to delete anything. I will give a black and white image of lotus in a day or two. If so, can we use 4X4X4 image order by adding two of them? In such case, I prefer image Swastika as David D. opinioned, as one and which one be the other? Otherwise which are the sumbols to be added? - Vaikunda & Raja

4 x 4 x 4 including the Ayyavazhi would be OK if we get a B&W image (please email it to me and I will add it to the source png file), but I would advise against the swastika. Too many negative connotations (and who whats more negative connotations associated with religion?). We could include a pagan symbol or other. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 01:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Using a swastika is a BAD IDEA!!! The most common interpretation of this symbol worldwide is Nazism. This is TOTALLY UNACCAPTABLE for an unexplained, tangential image about a hodgepodge of religious symbols. — RDF ^talk 03:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I knew it might be controversial but it is not TOTALLY UNACCAPTABLE . It would have been one of twelve small symbols. Do think it's totally unacceptable to go into a church and see swastikas on the organ pipes, in the stain glass windows on the brasses? Most people don't find it absurd they find it surprising, until they find out that the swastika, in fact, has a very long and peaceful history before it was hijacked by you know who. David D. (Talk) 04:18, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Guys, let's forget about the swastika. In an article about Humanity, to display a symbol that is commonly associated with genocide, is of really bad taste, to say the least. And I don't care about the symbol's beautiful origin. We are working toward taking this article to FAC, not to open a can of worms. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 04:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

The swastika is the primary religious symbol of the Jains, a prominent religious symbol in all vedic religions, and an important geometric design in nearly every culture. It should defintely be included. I like encyclopedias because they don't bow to political correctness or controversy. If I wanted that, I'd read the newspaper ;) As soon as I was able to read I was scouring any encyclopedia I could get ahold of for shocking info (like that the swastika is a religious symbol, which is why the Nazi's chose it, they were calling themselves aryan, remember?) Sam Spade 11:45, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Sam, that's a great sentiment. I'd love to see how you express it here: Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 October 3#Category:Charismatic religious leaders. — RDF ^talk 15:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, see here. I wasn't too eloquent, but its harder for me to get fired up about benny hinn types than ancient religious symbols. ;) Sam Spade 17:05, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Sam. — RDF ^talk 19:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Considering Plato's cave got cut for goofy artwork and and no linkage to the text, I'm still a bit mystified why a symbol of hatred and genocide has such strong supporters in a survey article, but hey, who am I to judge? Maybe "Inhumanity" should just have its own section. — RDF ^talk 19:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not strongly in support of the swastika and my support is certainly not because of it's link to genocide. I just thought if we are going to have upto twelve religious symbols, the swastika represents one of the more interesting and well known ones. Of course it comes with a lot of baggage but unfortunately that is the reality of humanity and human nature. The ape is an aggressive, territorial animal. This page on humans does gloss over that fact, so maybe your suggestion of an inhumanity section, while tongue in check, is not such a bad idea. The omission of the nastier side of human behaviour could be regarded as POV on our part ;) As Winston Churchill says "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it". David D. (Talk) 20:47, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Firstly we need a section on government, including all those facts we lost w the template. See my CIA section below. Sam Spade 20:55, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

My comment was sarcastic, but I agree a section based on Category:History / History - Category:Government / Government would be an important addition. — RDF ^talk 21:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's the Black&White Image of Ayyavazhi's symbol(Image:Ayyavazhi .Lotus.png. And in the case of Swastika, as Sam opinions, if it was the primary symbol of Jains, and as David in the beginning says, "It has a very interesting history, even before the Nazi's", Nazism is not the problem here. Also as Sam later says, may be Nazi's chose it from a previous source. We won't care about the later. I says, Just add it as a symbol of Jainism.- Vaikunda & Raja

Thanks for the Ayyavazhi. I will add it to the original. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 21:40, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Please put back the Celtic cross. If you must remove something, how about the maltese cross, or that neo-pagan symbol? Or we could simply make it bigger... Maybe 4X4 or 5X5. Sam Spade 15:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I have no problems in replacing a symbol with another one. But before I do so I would want to underdstand the rationale for your request. (Freom my perspective this image is only a "sample" of symbols with a very obvious wikilink to the list of religious symbols article, so it is no bug deal) ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 20:20, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

CIA.gov

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This website has alot of info which this page should offer, now that the template is gone. The world. Sam Spade 19:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

humor

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Sam Spade 12:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

intro

Latest comment: 19 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

User:JWSchmidt has suggested on my talk page that:

A concept current within the scientific community is that human evolution occured in response to a need for long distance running. Humans are said to be one of a short list of animals with such a capacity.

in the intro be changed to:

Current evidence indicates that bipedal locomotion appeared during human evolution before the large human brain. The origins of bipedal locomotion during human evolution and its role in human brain evolution are topics of on-going research.

or something similar. Thoughts?

Sam Spade 14:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Any wikilinks apply? — RDF ^talk 19:45, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I added some links, trying to cover tha same ground as before (introduces evolutionary origins of our species). --JWSchmidt 23:49, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Looking good! ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 03:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)