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Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not

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Latest comment: 19 years ago by CalJW in topic It's time for "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" to be renamed
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 Sections of this policy are currently under dispute: Crystal Ball, Wikipedia is not instructive

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Images of Saddam Hussein

There wasn't actually a decision to keep, it just languished on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Old for a long time without anyone deciding what action to take. Apparently the debate is now resumed at Talk:Images of Saddam Hussein. --Michael Snow 21:24, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is not a repository of recipe

Latest comment: 19 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Hi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWhat_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=4770834&oldid=4770819

On this edit, an editor added a policy. The problem I have with the addition is that I have no memory that this was ever clearly agreed by the community, quite the opposite as I remember quite well a long discussion on the topic and many mails. To me, it looks like a policy added by someone just because he supported it and because of the habit of a few editors like Gentgeen to get rid of recipes on Wikipedia. However, if there is an habit of a few bold editors, I do not think it is correct to put it as a policy as I did not see clear agreement for this. I would like to see the voting page where this was decided if this should stay here. Thanks SweetLittleFluffyThing 19:50, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Last discussions to show there is not a wide agreement on the topic :

A couple of mails http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-February/010882.html (optim)

If some one want to be bold and remove them, fine. But a rule should only be something most people agree upon, something over which people can be punished if they do it.

SweetLittleFluffyThing

So, now you unilaterally remove a clause from a policy that has been there for 6 months, and survived over 100 edits. From Policies and guidelines, Wikipedia policy is formulated for the most part by consensus. This consensus may be reached through open debate over difficult questions, or it may simply develop as a result of established practice. From the same source, Discussions sometimes also happen in IRC and on our mailing lists, but keep in mind that official policy must be agreed to on Wikipedia itself. Here's some discussion and established practice from the project itself, not some outside communications not all users participate in, and definatly more recent than last February --> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. Gentgeen 10:02, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
We need a non-policy guide, a compendium of areas in which it has been well established that there is simply no consensus, and none is likely to be reached in the foreseeable future. Debate on these areas is virtually guaranteed to be sterile. All actions in these areas are taken on the collective judgement of editors on a case-by-case basis on the particular article or portion of articles in question. Editors commenting on edits involving these matters ought to avoid making statement that imply that there is consensus or policy on them.
Three well-established non-consensus areas where it is clear that there is no policy include:
Recipes
How-tos
Articles about secondary, primary, and elementary schools
Dpbsmith (talk) 15:35, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Nod. I really agree with this comment you made. A non-policy guide might be a useful way to avoid tipping in these areas. You found exactly the right words. Thank you :-) SweetLittleFluffyThing

I completely disagree on your assesment about recipes. I will concede that there was no consensus to delete in February 2004, however, Wikipedia is not static. There has been nothing but consensus to delete since April 2004. Anthere, find some evidence that there is no consensus, or revert your actions in this matter. Gentgeen 00:53, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

  • Those seem (I haven't checked them all) to be references to individual VfD votes on individual articles, not policy discussions. I could list individual articles with recipes in them that went through VfD and were kept. That wouldn't show the existence of consensus, in general, just consensus that these individual articles had encyclopedic value. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:48, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There has been nothing but consensus to delete since April 2004. Anthere, find some evidence that there is no consensus, or revert your actions in this matter.

I digged up last opinions to report on current state of discussion on wikipedia-l on the matter

Opposed to systematic removal : *http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-January/036902.html (Jimmy Wales)

Favoring systematic move to wikibooks

Unclear

Interesting comment

Others talked on the topic, but I could not clearly see whether they supported removal of recipe or not.

There is NO consensus to delete. Clearly.

And there is still my proposition made here in october. Wikipedia:Recipes proposal. There was discussion here, and several people where either 1) totally opposed to deletion or 2) would favor keeping recipe of significant recipe from a cultural point of view. I agree there were also a couple of people favoring plain removal, but actually, in the page, they were a minority. While I agree some recipes were listed on vfd and consequently moved to wikibooks, you also forget all the cultural recipes on which there was no discussion whatsoever, but that you moved in all cases. Of course, since there was no discussion but just a removal of content, there is no link to show on vfd for all those articles.

While i recognise your position and respect it Gentgeen, it is not valid to say there is a consensus to remove all of them.

There is no such consensus. Sorry, but really, there is not. I would personally not object to removal of minor recipes no one has never heard about.

SweetLittleFluffyThing

I am in agreement with SweetLittleFluffyThing: there has never been a true consensus that recipes are always, under all circumstances, inappropriate on Wikipedia. There are a few who are adamant that they are not appropriate. There are those who are equally strongly opinionated the other way. I do not recall any forum in which a true consensus was established on this matter. If this rule survived on this page for 6 months, then all it is evidence for is that many established contributors don't check What Wikipedia is not for changes very often. I know that if I'd noticed such a rule had been added by someone, I'd have removed it too. I think most of us, for good or ill, read a page like this once, and then, once we understand what Wikipedia is for, we never go back and check again. —Morven 19:18, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

How about this rule: Wikipedia is NOT a portal for recipes. --Cool Cat My Talk 15:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

It sounds like we need a WikiRecipe site for recipes, then we can move any recipes from Wikipedia to there, and add links, rather than deleting the recipes. StuRat 18:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)Reply
We already have such a site. See Wikibooks:Cookbook. Any editor can transwiki a recipe over to the cookbook. Rossami (talk) 19:37, 7 October 2005 (UTC)Reply
Good, sounds like there is no probblem then, just move recipes there and link to them. I support this addition as long as it is made cear that recipes should be moved, not deleted. StuRat 19:54, 7 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not therapy

Latest comment: 20 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

I'm not sure exactly how to expand on it, but the phrase sounds good. It might even mean something significant. Any takers? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC)Reply

The Wikipedia community exists to write an encyclopedia. If you are disrupting the writing of an encyclopedia through problems that make you unable to work well with others, it is not the community's responsibility to allow the disruption to continue while you resolve your issues, sympathise as we might. In particular, Wikipedia is not chlorpromazine. — How's that? I'm thinking of it for the sort of disruptive idiot who is actually insane and considers it our responsibility to deal with that; we've had many real examples - David Gerard 8 July 2005 02:05 (UTC)
Would you be an example of such an editor? Your userpage (partly reprinted below) contains admissions of mental instability and your use of Wikipedia as a form of therapy. Perhaps you should consider banning yourself for the sake of Wikipedia. --FlatulentCorpulentDavid 05:00, 10 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
"David Gerard is an utter wikipediholic. ...
My wife foolishly directed me here and I became an instant addict. Like Barney Gumble having that first beer.
My life has been spent filling my head with unbelievable quantities of trivia and rubbish. Here's a chance to get some of it out.
As a recovering editor, I can't see a grammatical or spelling error without my red-pencil hand twitching. Wikipedia provides tremendous opportunity in this field."
Hi, Alberuni! One day you'll actually sit out your year's ban ... - David Gerard 23:08, 17 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
Why not? Contributing to a public work is certainly a therapy of sorts. A person should feel good about improving Wikipedia, and anything that makes a person feel better about theirself can be therapeutic. --Dan East July 8, 2005 13:55 (UTC)
Because what's good for them is not necessarily good for Wikipedia, See WP:ANI for another recent case - David Gerard 23:08, 17 July 2005 (UTC)Reply

For another example, I give you User:Amorrow, as anyone who's been receiving multipage rambling emails from him over the past few days will tell you. His page http://home.earthlink.net/~amorrow/wacky.html is down now, but it started with something like "I have recently been using Wikipedia as a form of therapy ..." It didn't work. - David Gerard 22:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)Reply


"Wikipedia is not a general knowledge base" is illogical

Latest comment: 20 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I think the overarching point of this section is to discourage trivia. The subheadings aren't really about "general knowledge" (eg What is the capital of France?) at all but rather about types of information which is deprecated as trivia and also about non-encyclopedic styles of content. The most mainstream Wikipedia articles like United States and William Shakespeare contain more "general knowledge" than things like travel guides and genealogical dictionaries. I don't think this subheading is helpful at all. I suggest that it is abolished, that the sub-subheadings below it are promoted, and that a further subheading is added along the lines of, "Wikipedia is not a repository of trivia. Information should only be added if may be of interest to a range of people." I think it needs to be short and sweet like that - we can't even say "broad range" because that would exclude specialist academic matter, and going into more detail would just open up all the other issues on the page over again. But the current heading should go because Wikipedia is the world's largest collection of "general knowledge". Virtually ever subject which might be asked about in a general knowledge quiz is covered by Wikipedia. The section simply doesn't mean what its title implies it means and at the same time the main point about trivia is obscured. CalJW 05:02, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, the title is misleading. ··gracefool |☺ 06:17, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I also agree. By most people's definition a "general knowledge base" is exactly what Wikipedia is. Perhaps the section should be "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information," which is a phrase already used in the section's introduction. - SimonP 14:38, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
The phrase is misleading. Coming from the B-road debate I would prefer something like "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of data". An encyclopedia is not a heap of data but a digest, it is data that has been distilled into information . 82.10.33.159 22:40, 25 August 2005 (UTC) Pilatus 22:45, 25 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
You're reading it wrong. It should read Wikipedia is not a general "knowledge base", rather than Wikipedia is not a "general knowledge" base. A knowledge base is anything that provides some form of information. General is used as the antonym of specific. I.E. if Wikipedia was a general knowledge base, it would not have a specifically defined structure for its information. However, Wikipedia does have a specific structure. It is that of a comprehensive encyclopedia about notable topics. Superm401 | Talk 23:39, August 25, 2005 (UTC)



Wikipedia is not an academic text - proposed addition

Latest comment: 19 years ago9 comments7 people in discussion

Wikipedia is not an academic text. Our readership is anyone in who searches the internet for English-language information. The style, language and approach of Wikipedia articles should be such that as many people as possible can understand them. Clearly they should be factually correct and academic subjects should be written about and be sourced from academic texts, but we should not replicate academic wording. Writing about a complicated subject in a way that the general public can understand it is a very fulfilling thing. Albert Einstein did it with his General and Special Theory of Relativity! So can you! jguk 10:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yes. Many of our scientific articles are inpenetrable to 99% of people. The 1% who can read them, probably have access to texts and journals - and they will be there first point of call, not an encyclopaedia. We should write to a level that people can actually understand... Dan100 (Talk) 22:22, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

The purpose of the introduction is to give a layman the general idea of what the article is about. For the rest of it, jargon and technical language are acceptable (within reason). →Raul654 22:41, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

But Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. Plus, we already have Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles, which is a guideline (not a policy) for a reason. WP policies don't regulate how content should be presented - that is up to individual editors. --bainer (talk) 02:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
This doesn't mean jargon shouldn't be used at all. Reading about it here helps by giving you terms to search for if you're doing more research on the subject. IMO we should use scientific wording if we can, but clearly explain it to the layman.- 131.211.210.10 12:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
I'm not saying jargon should never be used - just that it where it should be used we should think of the reader. This would mean not using too much jargon, and explaining in the article what the jargon means. I do disagree strongly with Raul654 - or maybe it's that I see "within reason" as a stronger requirement than he suggests. Maybe if we imagine our readers have the reading ability and background knowledge of a broadsheet newspaper we won't go far wrong, jguk 19:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
That attitude would have us excluding all kinds of information that Wikipedia currently (rightly) has. There are some things that simply require an awful lot of background material and the average reader will never understand without reading and learning all that background. While I agree articles should be made as accessible as possible, some subjects simply do not lend themselves to being fully understood by everyone. Numerous math and science articles would fit this description, and if you'd like an example try reading tensor. If you didn't already know what it was do you think that could be explained much better? The best that can be done is to give an approachable lead section, and try to give as much context as possible for technical terms. The only facet of an academic paper we should avoid, is not covering the background material anywhere, and assuming the reader understands all the jargon. If that's all you're saying for "is not an academic text", I'm ok with it, but the guidelines already say that. - Taxman Talk 19:41, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
It's really a very, very small number of articles which, with clever wording, will be inaccessible to laymen, and it probably is maths and science ones that would fit this exception - and then only in the more esoteric areas. The problem at present is that very many articles which do not need to be restricted to academics, are. We really should be encouraging people to write articles that everyone can understand. Yes, the line needs to be drawn somewhere, but that should be as far as possible in favour of making as many articles accessible to all as possible, jguk 19:57, 13 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
Well the way that needs to be done is the way it already is. A factually correct, but incomprehensible article needs to be edited for style and readability to improve it to a better state, that not only contains the juicy details for the specialist, but also is as approachable as possible to the uninitiated. As said before, that should involve the most accessible lead section the subject allows and the minimum use of unexplained jargon. Sure, we could add another section to this policy page to make that even more clear (even though it is in many guideline and style pages), but you have to reallize, every time we expand policy pages and add new ones, there is a cost to the rest. Ever expanding policy is just harder and harder to use. So instead of adding a section, how could this be integrated into the guidelines to make them all easier to undertand? That would be the ideal solution to your aim and accomplish it not only for articles, but also for the guideline and policy pages. - Taxman Talk 22:14, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with bainer and Taxman. Maurreen 05:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)Reply

If we adopt this, can we also get "WP is not a primary school textbook"? I'll have concise articles with the correct terminology hyperlinked for people who don't understand it, over wordy blathers full of colloquialisms and smart similes, any day, thank you. Sure, improve article style where you can, but without dumbing down or drawing out of the text. After all, there is simple: to point people to. Otoh, there is no academic:, so technicalities that we cannot put here will not be in WP at all. dab (ᛏ) 21:36, 17 July 2005 (UTC)Reply

I don't like this proposal at all. If an article is difficult, the remedy is to add an accessible introduction, not to remove the difficult material. Print encyclopedias have continuously dumbed themselves down to reach a high-school-student market, but we shouldn't. Take a look at the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica to see what encyclopedias were like before the dumbing-down process occurred. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

The way I see it, no information should ever be removed from Wikipedia because it is too academic or complicated or inaccessible. Instead, the information should be made accessible, by whatever means necessary. That may include linking to more basic articles, explaining terms as they are introduced, or anything else. If this causes the article to become too long, that's never a problem. Just use summary style to handle it. Superm401 | Talk 00:30, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I would make this "Wikipedia is not JUST an academic text", to emphasize that info of use only to PhD's is permitted, so long as an introduction is provided which is readable to the majority of people. As for the use of complex jargon, if it is the simplest way to describe a concept, it should be allowed. However, academics frequently use needlessly complex wording to explain basic concepts, in an apparent attempt to make themselves seem more intelligent. This should not be allowed. StuRat 18:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not CliffsNotes

Latest comment: 20 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I'd like some comments on the status of extremely detailed plot summaries like those at Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - Full Plot Summary and Harry Potter (plot). Is it worth having if it is too long to fit on the main page for the book or movie? James 23:03, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Transwiki to Wikibooks. Not here, not here. Summaries should tell someone, as briefly as possible and with minimal spoilers, what they'll get out of that book/movie/game/llama. GarrettTalk 00:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
A dust jacket will tell you what you might expect with extremely minimal spoilers. That is advertising, this is supposed to inform. I agree, there is a possible problem of telling someone what they did not want to know, but i think there is a greater problem of failing to tell them what they are here looking for. This is more a problem of organisation, rather than content. Myself, I looked at HP articles after reading the books, because I wanted to see what i had missed. I was rather startled to see the amount of long description deletion which has been going on. As with any article, the amount of input is likely to be proportionate to the amount of interest. Why is there still a debate about too much content on a non-paper encyclopedia? I would agree, a short jacket type introduction might be appropriate at the start of an article, but this is inadequate and needs an accompanying longer description, of a length which would make it a reasonable article by itself. I checked wikibooks, their own policies officially preclude hosting simple long plot summaries. Sandpiper 02:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

Propose renaming & split of "not a soapbox" heading

Latest comment: 20 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

"Soapbox" is a word that is not well understood by all English speakers in the sense that it's being used there. Also, there are items of two sorts in this list: outright propaganda, which is blatant abuse, and earnest critical thinking which is easy for newcomers to get into.

Since this page is an important reference for new users, which I am of, I suggest clarifying the topic by breaking up the section heading "Wikipedia is not a soapbox" into:

"Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought"

  • no original research / essays
  • not a discussion forum
  • no critical reviews

"Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine":

  • propaganda / advocacy
  • self-promotion
  • advertising

User:Bob2000

Please sign your posts on talk pages with four tildes (~). And why not just link to soapbox, which explains the idiom? —Cryptic (talk) 17:25, 22 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
A link will not solve the problem raised. The term is already explained within the section, and there is a link indeed. The problem is with the heading, which is cryptic (no pun intended). I must say that I don't find the beginning part of contributing to Wikipedia to be a very simple or enjoyable experience. In fact it's pretty discouraging. There's all these rules that you only know about after making the mistake--you provide another very good example: how was I supposed to know you've got to quadruple-tilde your messages to sign them? So as a newcomer, I view any kind of jargon in introductory documents as a roadblock to efficiency. Bob2000 18:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)Reply

Crystal Ball

Latest comment: 19 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion

I reverted a June change to the section that was not discussed here. Minor tweaks may have been lost in the revert. Superm401 | Talk 20:01, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

I added the paragraph below to the article before I noticed this section.

The above prohibitions are not intended to suppress discussion of current trends and tendencies and how they may affect future events. In particular the Wikipedia allows discussion about the arguments for and against whether developments and proposals will be successful provided that they are well grounded and sourced.

--Carl Hewitt 14:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Carl, as the box at the top of the page says, you must have consensus before making significant changes to a policy page. It is not enough to remove them when controversy arises. You have to have general agreement beforehand. Please leave this talk page section around for at least five or six days to see what people have to say. If there is general agreement or still no responses after that time, then it is more reasonable to add a paragraph. Those general statements apply for any change, and are not my take (except for the specific recommended times) but Wikipedia policy. Therefore, because policy requires consensus, I have removed the addition. My personal opinion on this specific change is below. Superm401 | Talk 23:40, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
I would rather it be rephrased as, "It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the success and future developments of proposals and protects, provided that discussion is properly cited. It is not appropriate for an editor to insert their own opinions or analysis, because of Wikipedia's prohibition on original research." What do you think about that? Superm401 | Talk 23:40, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that the above be ammended as follows:
"It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success or failure of future developments, proposals and projects, provided that discussion is properly referenced. It is not appropriate for an editor to insert their own opinions or analysis, because of Wikipedia's prohibition on original research."
Also I suggest that the top of the page be ammended to state that suggested changes must remain on the talk page for a specified time before editing the policy page. Otherwise it is just your say so that my suggestion must remain on the talk page for five or six days before editing the policy page.--Carl Hewitt 23:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
Carl, I like your version--I can't think of any improvements, and if nobody else chimes in during the next few days, I think it's close enough to Superm401's version that it could be added to the page as having consensus. It certainly reflects current practice fairly well, I think. As far as the 5-6 day limit, I think Super's comments (if you re-read them) simply suggest 5-6 days as a reasonable standard--he says "please" after all, not "you must". Perhaps a note should be added to this page. The rationale for his comment, which I hope you can understand, is that this policy page is often used in settling disputes. The most minor changes to the document may seriously influence people, since they come here and read the document, and assume what they read is policy. As a result, it's just standard wikipractice that, any time you want to edit or alter a page that is officially policy, the proposal goes to the talk page until you can get a few folks agreeing to it, and nobody disagreeing (in other words, consensus). Maybe that should be made more clear here. Honestly, it's a good habit to get into for editing any established page--usually, if I want to make a significant change to an article that is very stable (say a featured article), I do the same thing...posting the change to the talk page and inviting comment. It can be frustratingly slow, but it ensures that consensus prevails, and it avoids edit wars and hurt feelings pretty effectively. Thanks for the suggestion here--I really think you and Super have refined your idea into a solid addition to the page. Jwrosenzweig 00:05, 10 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for your comments.--Carl Hewitt 20:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
I'm fine with you're proposed changes, Carl. However, on second thought(I should have said this before; sorry), doesn't it sound a bit awkward to speak of a development succeeding? I normally would say "something devloped", or "a development occured", but not "a devlopment succeeded". Does anyone understand what I'm saying? It's a minor detail, but I'd like to work out a better phrasing. Can someone suggest a fix? Superm401 | Talk 01:25, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
What do you think of the following ammendment:
"It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, provided that discussion is properly referenced. It is not appropriate for an editor to insert their own opinions or analysis, because of Wikipedia's prohibition on original research."
--Carl Hewitt 02:40, 10 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
Great. Superm401 | Talk 03:00, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

An addition like the following has been proposed by Dpbsmith at the end of this article:

It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, provided that discussion is properly referenced. It is not appropriate for an editor to insert their own opinions or analysis, because of Wikipedia's prohibition on original research. Forward-looking articles about unreleased products (e.g. movies, games, etc.) require special care to make sure that they are not advertising."

--Carl Hewitt 01:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

  • Thanks. Sorry to have jumped in independently. You seem to be coordinating this, so... The most important thing to me is to have a special mention of a category of articles which present special problems, which you've done above. Can you think of some concise wording that expresses two of my concerns: first, all statements about the future are necessarily opinions and need to be handled as such (hence subject to NPOV, citing sources, etc.); second, forward-looking articles about unreleased products have a special danger, in that promoters have an obvious interest in publicizing such information; therefore much of the information publicly available about such products is likely to have originated from promoters and to reflect the promoters' POV. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:29, 12 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
Coordinating is probably too strong ;-) I share your concerns about categories of contributions that present special problems. However, there is only so much that the Wikipedia can do in policy statements. Fans and promoters is not banned from contributing to the Wikipedia. However they have to cite public sources. Also detractors and critics can chime in with other points of view.--Carl Hewitt 17:12, 12 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
Well, I have no problem with your wording above—"It is appropriate... no advertising"— and would rather have it in the article than not. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:32, 12 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
If you mean the most recent version proposed in this talk section, with the advertising sentence at the end, I'm fine with it as well. We should leave it up here for a while before putting it in the main article to give others a chance to look. Superm401 | Talk 03:46, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
I'm now adding it in. Superm401 | Talk 07:29, 22 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Proposed addition to "Crystal ball"

Latest comment: 20 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion
  • Information on unreleased products, software, games, or movies may be appropriate when the plans for the product are so notable that they are affecting many people in the present. However, promised characteristics or planned features should never be reported as if they were facts. For example, in 2004 it would have been inappropriate to state that "WinFS is the new storage system in Longhorn" or that "Wind turbines will provide 20% of the Freedom Tower's energy needs," despite official statements to that effect. Nor is it enough to quality such statements with words like "claimed" or "planned" or "expected." Instead, descriptions should be provided only when they can be backed up by citations from independent sources who have had an opportunity to examine the work in progress and can report accurately on what has or has not actually been achieved.

Thoughts? Dpbsmith (talk) 12:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Reply

    • I don't like it. It's valid to report the claim of what will be done. However, you can also include other sources' opinions that it will not be done. The kind of independent verification you specify is very difficult in practice. Superm401 | Talk 00:37, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
      • OK, how about:
Information on unreleased products, software, games, or movies may be appropriate when the plans for the product are so notable that they are affecting many people in the present. However promised characteristics or planned features should never be presented as if they were simple facts. For example, in 2004 it would have been inappropriate to write that "WinFS is the new storage system in Longhorn" or that "Wind turbines will provide 20% of the Freedom Tower's energy needs," despite official statements to that effect. It is necessary, but not sufficient to qualify such statements with words like "claimed" or "promised" or "expected." A positive effort must be made to insure that the presentation is neutral and not promotional.
I like it. Now, what you have at the end is basically a summary of the WP:NPOV policy. Superm401 | Talk 14:43, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
Dpbsmith (talk) 20:23, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
In it goes. I expect putting it in will generate some more discussion. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:11, 29 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
I've taken it back out. The second proposed version was only on the talk page for one day. Give it about a week. Then, you can put it in and no one will have any grounds to complain. Superm401 | Talk 18:03, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
OK. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
I think it is going too far and is unnecessary. The difference between "The tower's designers say that 20% of the Freedom Tower will be powered by wind turbines" and "Wind turbines will provide 20% of the Freedom Tower's energy needs" is not sufficiently important for this page. By all means offer such detailed advice on a particular page advising how to talk about expected future events, but on this a policy rather than advisory page it is a unnecessary addition to an already too long page. Pcb21| Pete 21:29, 29 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
Surely anything which is affecting many people right now is worthy of inclusion? How does that help to distinguish more difficult cases where some people might be affected now, or many people might be affected in the future? Or many people might be interested in something which has a better than 50/50 chance of happening, but unless it does no one will be affected? What about possible earthquakes in major cities? Very uncertain when they will happen. Certainly not on schedule. Might be considered important nonethelessSandpiper 02:25, 16 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

Talk pages

Latest comment: 20 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Sam, could you say what you meant with this edit? [1] Specifically, what kind of talk pages did you have in mind? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:39, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

I was trying to claify that disruptive WP:POINT based edits arn't allowed on talk pages of any kind. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 00:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
Okay Sam, sorry, I misread it. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:00, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Quite alright, have a good one. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 02:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'm still unsure what it's supposed to be stopping; could it be explained before being added? It looks very much like an attempt to change policy in order to help SS in his dispute with FeloniousMonk. Changing Wikipedia official policy as a move in a personal dispute is surely unacceptable, even if the change turns out to be OK on other grounds. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

Question

Latest comment: 19 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

There are a lot of promoting websites like google or Yahoo and aren't taken off? why is that. Template:Brett1

I don't understand the question, I'm afraid. Could you clarify? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

when you are writing a Article the Begining to get to get this site is no Promoting yourself, Websites or something i can not remember.but what i was trying to say was we have a lot of websites like google in Wilkipedia so i was confused on that.so if you could clarify this it would be appreciated ~Brett1

Articles about websites are allowed, but the site itself has to be notable. Most web users have heard of Google and Yahoo and their sites are significant in the history of the internet, so they get detailed articles. Websites like Slashdot may not be so well known but they are also significant. However, if someone just writes their own website, it doesn't become notable merely by existing on the internet. Anyone who then puts an entry on wikipedia is likely to see it nominated for deletion on grounds of 'vanity' (that is, imagining oneself to be more important than one actually is). Of course it would be ludicrous to suggest that the CEO of Google wrote the entry on Google because otherwise no-one would visit his site. Hope this helps. David | Talk 20:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

so does this count i will write this article if you say I can Seinor League Hockey -Brett1

no one has ansered me?

  • Speaking personally, my opinion is that if you write this article it will probably be nominated for deletion as advertising and non-notable, and deleted. This is because I don't see any obvious reason for putting in an article about this site other than to try to promote it.
  • If you feel the need to test this then be bold and create the article There's no other way to find out. Unlike traditional publications, there is no process by which we accept or reject articles prior to publication. If you go ahead, I strongly suggest that the article be at least two paragraphs long, and that it mention something about the site that makes it notable and different from every other fantasy-sports game. Can you cite a source that mentions it; for example, an article in a well-known print gaming magazine that calls it the best on-line sports game, or something like that? Any celebrities that have complained in interviews that they're not getting their work done because they spend too much time online playing Ice Hockey Manager?
  • WIth regard to "other" articles, they're irrelevant. There's no exact line between what's encyclopedic and what's not, so there's inconsistency about how borderline articles are handled. If you see an article that is obviously advertising, you should nominate it for deletion. Do not try to use borderline articles as a justification for inserting other borderline articles, or for expanding the borderline; it's like asking a judge to revoke a speeding ticket because the cop didn't stop other cars that were going faster. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy addition

Latest comment: 20 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

It was just a thought (briefly thrown around on IRC), but given the amount of wikilawyering I've seen going around (and increasing, at least from my subjective viewpoint), I thought it'd be simply to go beyond "bureaucracy" and get down to what people seem to throw policies and guidelines around for, not as procedural guides (which is what "bureaucracy" implies), but as things with force of law. Hence, "In particular, Wikipedia is not a system of law." Thoughts on this? Should it even be necessary as a reminder? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 14:29, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... makes some sense to me, in light of wikilawyering I've seen about things that should be so obvious as to not need a rule (I.E., don't put a VfD subpage up for deletion). Although, is there a potential downside, in advancing the "WP:IAR! WP:IAR!" defense of "Anything stupid's allowed, there are no rules."? The Literate Engineer 22:24, 14 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
WP:IAR perhaps needs to be expanded or commented on - it's like, two paragraphs, and too often misunderstood and abused as a mantra. As I noted on Wikipedia talk:Wikiblower protection, WP:IAR is not a license to moon everyone - it's a plea for common sense. That's not the same as saying there are no rules, it's asking that people resolve things by discourse rather than by rigidly adhering to writ-in-stone rules... and what the addition is about. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:41, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Structured lists?

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

In the 'repository of links' section, the term 'topical list' was changed into 'structured list' and the link was changed from a guideline page to another page (created by the person making the change). I did not see a discussion of this edit. Is it actually backed by consensus? --IByte 23:35, 15 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'm not certain that it's a meaningful change, since either way I don't agree with making the exceptions. I'd like to insert a clause in here prohibiting all stand-alone lists of any sort, but I realize there's little chance of a consensus for that. The Literate Engineer 06:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

Majoritarianism

Latest comment: 19 years ago33 comments10 people in discussion

Perhaps a more apt title would be Wikipedia is not a Majoritarian Democracy, since the vote tallies are not totally ignored, Wikipedia could be considered a sociocracy, which is in itself, is an evolutionary byproduct of democracy, and is close enough to it to be considered a close cousin since both sociocracy and traditional democracy depend on the "will of the people", if only in different ways. Karmafist 22:39, 21 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

I think the page currently says it best. "Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy". It doesn't care what political structure it has, and doesn't waste time trying to define it or follow a particular method of decisionmaking. Instead, it just goes about its business, and that includes not wasting time determining its actual power structure here. I oppose any change to the page. Superm401 | Talk 00:10, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
It is stated in policy that "Wikipedia is not a democracy." Well, I am formally challenging that statement. When I looked up the word "consensus" on Merriam-Webster online, it has the word "unanimity" in its definition, which gives me the idea that a procedural action on Wikipedia, such as deleting an article or promoting someone to the status of administrator, must have the support of everyone—every single person—who renders an opinion on that action. If this were the case, much fewer articles would be deleted from Wikipedia and much fewer editors would see their candidacies for adminship succeed. Well, that is not the case here. It is very clear to me that procedural actions that affect what grand path Wikipedia takes do not need the support of everyone who votes on them in order for them to go through. Sorry, but I do believe that the community behind Wikipedia is indeed democratic.  Denelson83  02:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
Consensus does not require unanimity. Unanimous consensus does, for obvious reasons. According to the excellent American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, consensus means first "An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole." That certainly fits with the description of the page. I also agree that our opinions and positions are reached largely by discussion. Superm401 | Talk 02:13, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

The addition of "majoritarian" isn't needed. The line "Wikipedia is not a democracy" is intended as a simple statement about certain ways of behavior; it is not inteded to be following formal definitions used in political science. Radiant_>|< 12:07, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. Superm401 | Talk 19:51, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it is a simple statement, I think it is confusing- especially to those who are more familiar with the term democracy. The article Democracy (varieties) states that a "Direct democracy is any form of government based on a theory of civics in which all citizens can directly participate in the decision-making process."; Isn't this what happens in the wikipedia? Wikipedia is a directly democractic encyclopedia. I think we need a better name for this policy. Intangir 23:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
Also, where do I vote to change the policy name to "Wikipedia is not ruled by majority" hehe? Intangir 23:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

After the recent debate at Wikipedia:Votes_for_undeletion##Wikipedia:Conlangs.2FVotes, User:Kim Bruning deleted some text explaining how VfD does not constitute democracy in the strict sense because we don't go strictly by a majority vote. I think we should add back some text along those lines, modified to meet objections; something like:

Votes for deletion and votes for undeletion may seem to be a countexample; some argue that these should be called polls since the results of the voting (or polling) is not strictly binding.

Can someone else think of a better way to phrase that? --Jim Henry | Talk 20:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'd prefer to go back to a somewhat modified version of the "original" ; i.e.:
Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion, not voting. That is, majority opinion does not necessarily rule in Wikipedia. Various votes are regularly conducted, but their numerical results are usually only one of several means of making a decision. The discussions that accompany the voting processes are crucial means of reaching consensus. For example, a very important Wikipedia process is determining which articles are not encyclopedic and should be deleted from Wikipedia entirely. These decisions are made on the Wikipedia:Votes for deletion page. However, voting is only a part of the process, along with discussion through which Wikipedians work to reach a consensus.
What do you think about that, Jim Henry? Superm401 | Talk 20:53, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
That sounds good, but then, the original version sounded good to me too. Kim Bruning objected to it for some reason, which seems to have something to do with objections to calling this process "voting" when the results are not binding. I tried to rewrite it more briefly and in a way that addressed M. Bruning's objections. I'll wait till said user replies here to your proposed rewrite. --Jim Henry | Talk 21:00, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
The text was added by old hand Rednblu, who was trying to clarify things, but unfortunately made it more confusing instead. (sorry dude! ^^; ). On wikipedia, vote is shorthand for majority vote, which is certainly not permitted on wikipedia. A poll is an opinion poll, which is considered a nescesary evil. Kim Bruning 21:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
On Wikipedia, foo is shorthand for bar is always a recipe for pain. When we say vote, we should mean what it commonly means; if we want to say "majority vote", say "majority vote".
The reason why majority voting is not permitted on wikipedia is because it cannot be used to determine encyclopedic content:
2+2=5?
  • Support
  • Oppose
  • Support
  • Support
Accepted, 2+2=5!
(User:Kim Bruning wrote the above.)
It's simply incorrect that majority voting is not permitted. It may not be used often but is allowed and is used. Consider all of our elections(i.e. Board, Arbitration Committee...) as well as the Criteria for Speedy Deletion recently. Superm401 | Talk 22:23, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

What about this alternative text, then?

Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion, not voting. That is, majority opinion does not necessarily rule in Wikipedia. Various votes are regularly conducted, but their numerical results are usually only one of several means of making a decision. The discussions that accompany the voting processes are crucial means of reaching consensus. For example, a very important Wikipedia process is determining which articles are not encyclopedic and should be deleted from Wikipedia entirely. These decisions are made on the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion page. However, the results of this voting is not strictly binding on the administrators; they In closing debates, Administrators use the votes and comments to see whether a consensus has been reached and what it is. For this reason some Wikipedians prefer to call these procedures polls instead of votes.

Is that acceptable to everyone? --Jim Henry | Talk 21:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

Almost. The final sentence is unnecessary semantics, and I twiddled one sentence with a strike, hope you don't mind. -Splash 21:28, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
OK, sound better. (I bolded the words you added to my text.) I agree the last sentence sounds a bit odd, but it seemed necessary to address Kim Bruning's objections to any use of the term "vote". Let's give M. Bruning a while to read this and reply before we modify the text on the main page. --Jim Henry | Talk 21:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
Wikipedia uses the term "vote". It is incorrect to say otherwise. As a matter of fact, the official name of our deletion mechanism is still Votes for deletion, and this page should reflect that. Otherwise, I like the paragraph without the striked portion and without the last sentence. Superm401 | Talk 22:23, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, you twiddled all the bits, except the bits that were actually confusing in the first place. As stated above, vote==majority vote==not permitted, poll==opinion poll==(bad, but what can we do?)
Some poll pages are currently called "Votes for" , this is confusing, and these pages are being moved.
Note that this is not a question of naming: votes and polls have very different objectives, and thus very different methods and applications. We have experimented with voting in the past. See if you can track down the old arbcom voting procedures. We've discovered that voting is typically a really bad idea. (see also: the (trivial) example above where an incorrect conclusion of fact is reached, based on vote-count).
People have suggested in the past that voting only in the wikipedia namespace would be an ok idea (Quickpolls, IIRC (inaptly named too!) ). That too was shown to be fallacious, as quickpolls style voting quickly colonised the main namespace, and had to be stamped out. Kim Bruning 22:24, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
How do you distinguish between a poll and a vote? I am unable to determine your criteria from context. As for VFD and other "votes" pages, no consensus has yet been reached to rename VFD. Please do not imply otherwise. Superm401 | Talk 22:28, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
OK, I give up. I see no way of reconciling the opposite positions held by Kim Bruning and Superm401. As far as I can tell Kim Bruning's position seems to be more of a fringe position -- I've never seen this vehement insistence on poll rather than vote before -- but until fairly recently I've been mainly involved in, you know, editing articles rather than policy pages (until the recent conlangs policy debate sparked by somone nominating a bunch of conlangs for deletion back in July). So I admit I don't know all there is to know about Wikipedia policy. Y'all hash it out. --Jim Henry | Talk 22:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
If you seriously think that Kim's position is "fringe", I am both desperately disappointed and rather surprised. Kim is absolutely correct: we don't do binding polls (called "votes") ever for wiki things (the only binding votes people comment on are the Arbitrator elections, which aren't - they just inform Jimbo of community opinion, who can then appoint whomever he wants to to the Committee - and Board elections, which are very much not a wiki process). The policy as I understand it (and helped form it) is that binding polls are banned on Wikipedia. Happy?
James F. (talk) 22:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
Absolutely not. There isn't anything anywhere that says polls are banned on Wikipedia. If there were, somebody would have pointed to it. You may understand it to mean that, but, well, yeah. The fact is, of course, that anybody can try to revise anythning at anytime. So a poll cannot really be binding. That doesn't mean they 'banned' in quite the sense you imply, however. -Splash 23:40, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
Feel free to read it as "binding polls are banned on Wikipedia [unless you know exactly why, and can defend to the hilt your violation of acres of policy and years of practice in ignoring this]", then. And for a policy page, see m:Polls are evil, obviously. No, it doesn't say the word "banned", because in general we used to expect our editors to show rather greater level of better judgement than we've learnt we are able to do so.
James F. (talk) 00:41, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
The Arbitrator elections are now binding votes(or elections). Jimbo does not select people using his judgement. The Arbitrators are chosen directly through voting. He has the right to dissolve the Committee completely, but has never used that right. Superm401 | Talk 23:28, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Look, I think of anyone I'd know about how Arbitrator elections are conducted. :-) You're wrong, FWIW, but this is not the place for this discussion. Thanks for your input, however.
James F. (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I apologize. You're probably right(given that you have been on the Committee, which I didn't know when I made that comment). You should explain it to me some time. However, there are still other binding votes, like for the CSD issue. Superm401 | Talk 00:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
No worries. :-)
James F. (talk) 00:41, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I don't see Kim's position as "fringe". Actually, it seems to me that Kim's position is most closely in line with both the official policies and the ideals of Wikipedia. If it is less vocally defended here it is only because it doesn't always occur to people that the sentiment is changing and that there is any need to defend it. Most of what I have to say is already expressed at m:polls are evil; I'm somewhat at a loss for what to say on top of that to make that position clearer. Our primary purpose is to build an encyclopedia. We are a collection of people who all have the nerve to think that we are qualified to do this, and have the intelligence to have our own ideas as to how this should be done. If we take differing positions it's probably with reasoning behind it that deserves to be examined and weighed rather than summarised in one word as "support" or "oppose" for weighing and discussion to take place, and thus I believe voting has no place on Wikipedia. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 22:50, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I agree that most issues should be resovled through discussions. However, Wikipedia requires and uses voting to resolve a small minority of issues, some of which are important. That should not be ignored completely. Superm401 | Talk 23:30, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, "fringe" was probably the wrong word. What I was surprised at was his insistence on avoiding any use of the word "vote", even for the opinions expressed in a non-binding poll (like "votes for deletion" and "votes for undeletion" and various policy discussion pages), -- even to the extent of unilaterally deleting a page that had the word "Votes" in the title. Can either of you suggest a specific rewording of the text that Kim wanted to delete, and for which Superm401 and I suggested an alternate version? --Jim Henry | Talk 23:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
How about: ...
Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. It is guided in editorial decisions by consensus, which is discovered through discussion. Attempting to short-circuit this through "polls", or binding votes, is highly unhelpful and is generally considered unwiki and bad practice. Consensus does not mean majority rule, and certainly does not mean plurality rule. For example, when a sysop is needed to close a debate, they will use the stated opinions and comments to evaluate consensus opinion, if there is any.
James F. (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I don't like that. Binding votes do exist on Wikipedia, and are appropriate in some instances. We should discourage unnecessary voting, but that version goes too far in condemning all votes and polls. Superm401 | Talk 00:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
They don't, honest. The CfSD debacle is a good example of why not.
James F. (talk) 00:41, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
The CfSD was a binding vote. You may wish that it had not been(which I can understand) or believe the outcome was a debacle. However, regardless, that is the form the decision took. On this page, we are trying to explain how Wikipedia is, rather than decide how it should be. It would be wrong to imply that Wikipedia never has binding votes when it in fact does. If you disagree with my assertion that it was a vote, please explain why. Superm401 | Talk 02:27, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
OK... but that doesn't address the fact that "votes for deletion" and similar processes look like votes to the naive user, or explain why they're not really votes and yet called such. Maybe eventually this will be a dead issue if "votes for deletion" is renamed, but that hasn't happened yet. --Jim Henry | Talk 23:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
Votes for Deletion is misnamed (they're neither votes nor is their deletion being discussed), indeed; consider this one step on the way to getting it fixed.
James F. (talk) 00:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I'd like to wait until Kim explains what he sees as the difference between the vote and a poll. We can work from there. Superm401 | Talk 23:28, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Kim meant exactly what policy distinguishes a vote is a binding poll, whereas we only have non-binding, "straw" polls. It's really quite simple. And BTW, Kim is a "he". :-)
James F. (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I think the desire to avoid even using the word "vote" is a valid one is we wish to avoid the idea that we are actually voting—there's currently a push to rename "votes for deletion" which has gained significant support, for example—as language does affect the way we think about things. I'll look at the text to see if I can come up with a better version. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 23:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I'm sorry to yell, but this point is being constantly ignored. WE HAVE BINDING VOTES!! The recent vote over criteria for speedy deletion is a prime example. Some of our votes/polls are not binding, but some ARE. We must say that in the WP:NOT page. Also, if you come up with a better version we'd be glad to consider it. Please don't add it unilaterally, though. Superm401 | Talk 00:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
We're "ignoring" you because you are incorrect. The CfSD "vote" is a prime example of why we don't have binding votes, ever.
James F. (talk) 16:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I don't think that the word vote necessarily means the same thing as a binding poll. Merriam Webster defines it as
"1 a : a usually formal expression of opinion or will in response to a proposed decision; especially : one given as an indication of approval or disapproval of a proposal, motion, or candidate for office "
Nothing about the definition implies that it must be binding. Furthermore, M-W defines poll as
" 4 a (1) : the casting or recording of the votes of a body of persons (2) : a counting of votes cast b : the place where votes are cast or recorded -- usually used in plural <at the polls> c : the period of time during which votes may be cast at an election d : the total number of votes recorded <a heavy poll>"
All of the definitions for poll specifically state that people voted. While straw poll is definitely a more precise word to use, the word vote is not wrong, only imprecise. (copied from Wikipedia talk:Conlangs/Straw poll) Intangir 23:35, 29 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I agree. You can vote in an election, binding referendum(to make up a specific term), or a straw poll. I would still like to hear what Kim thinks the difference between poll and vote is, but in the mean time what about something like the below, which might satisfy him. By the way, I don't like VFD as a name either, but we have to describe the way things are, not how we wish them to be.
Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion, not voting. Majority opinion does not necessarily rule. Various votes are regularly conducted, but their numerical results are usually only one of several means of making a decision. They are sometimes referred to as "straw polls" or just "polls" to further emphasize their limited authority in decision-making. The discussions that accompany the voting processes are often more important when reaching consensus. For example, Wikipedia decides which pages to delete on [[Wikipedia:<wait for name to settle> for deletion]] page, partially through polling. However, in closing debates, administrators use votes and comments to see whether a consensus has been reached and what it is.

--Superm401 | Talk 00:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Count me with the "fringe". We have recently fallen into the habit of "voting" (that is, binding votes decided by either majority or supermajority) and it has been destructive to Wikipedia in almost every case. As a community, we are now moving away from that bad habit and back to our wiki-roots of discussion and consensus-seeking. As part of this course-correction, we need to return the wording of this page to it's old wording and intent. Looking at the history, I see that this change was made in March and, as near as I can tell, was not discussed here first. I'm all for being bold, but I think a mistake was made here and should now be corrected. Rossami (talk) 03:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

for reference, the pre-March version of this paragraph simply read:
Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion, not voting.
Hm. This is more like it. If we must, perhaps a sentence clarifying the role of polls: "In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes." Mindspillage (spill yours?) 22:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
Yes, returning to the old wording would be ideal. I'd be happy with that wording to a supplementary comment, too, if people feel that it is needed, though to me it seems a trifle unnecessary.
James F. (talk) 02:13, 31 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I'd accept that, with the poll line preferably. Superm401 | Talk 02:27, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
Despite my being an anti-voting crusader I like the supplementary line myself (well, I guess I ought to, or else I'd just have been trolling ;-))—because polls are indeed conducted, all the time, and we might as well spell out for those who are wondering just what they are and how they should function. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:00, 31 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
And now you've implemented it. Good move. :-)
James F. (talk) 01:21, 1 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Not a democracy ? To me consensus and democracy are synonymous. If you mean that 51% majority isn't necessarily a "consensus", there are many cases where democracies require a supermajority, such as when changing a nation's Constitution. StuRat 17:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a blog / merge?

I see no particular problem with doing this. ¦ Reisio 07:58, 2005 August 24 (UTC)

  • I've merged this. Since "WP is not a blog" has hardly seen any edits, please copyedit, clarify and/or remove the section if redundant, as appropriate. Radiant_>|< 12:48, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No Instruction / merge?

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

While generally I agree that Wikipedia articles should not be HowTo's, I do not agree that the instructional parts of Condom and Wart are inappropriate. Condoms serve a very specific purpose which requires specific usage. The only problem with Wart is that the article "recommends" a procedure instead of merely informing of its existence as a home remedy. ¦ Reisio 08:15, 2005 August 24 (UTC)

Disagree with merge and with the object itself. — Xiong熊talk* 07:24, 2005 August 27 (UTC)

The 'no instructions' policy should be ratified as official policy before any merger takes place. Ingoolemo talk 21:49, 2005 August 29 (UTC)

  • Strongly disagree with making this change at this time. Weakly disagree with "no instructions" policy itself. The section heading, "Wikipedia is not instructive," seems to me to be almost an argument against the policy in itself. Let's try putting Wikipedia:How-to and How-to up for deletion first, citing the no-instructions semi-policy, and see what happens. It is very inappropriate for one policy page to prohibit something which another (and very long-standing) policy page encourages. Dpbsmith (talk) 09:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
  • I oppose the merge, on the grounds that some how-to content can sometimes be very useful even necessary for a complete discussion of a subject or procedure, beyond what No Instructions encourages. --Mysidia (talk) 13:37, 18 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors - but is that really fair for the minors?

Latest comment: 19 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Well, for all you morons know it should be. Sure, you know how many hits you get everyday, but I'm sure you don't know how many of these hits are being made by minors. We're people too, you know, and just because we may not be able to vote or other such things doesn't mean we should be ignored here. --Wack'd About Wiki 14:28, 24 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'm a minor in my country, but I can moderate what I see myself as needed. I require no external bodies to censor themselves for me, and don't think I have the right to ask them to do so. I don't think Wikipedia should censor for anyone. To do so is POV. Superm401 | Talk 22:09, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
Are minors ignored here in the wikipedia? They shouldn't be. I don't know of any wikipedia policies that discriminate by age. Anyways, what does that have to do with censorship? Intangir 00:11, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I didn't claim I was discriminated against, or that censorship was discrimination. I did say that Wikipedia should not censor itself for me or other minors. Superm401 | Talk 00:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I was responding to Wack'd About Wiki :) Intangir 00:42, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
My apologies(I've been saying that too often lately...). I should have noticed that. I don't know why I didn't. Superm401 | Talk 00:54, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

I'm confused... Wack'd About Wiki, are you saying you wish that Wikipedia were censored for your protection? And, if so, is this because you actually run into anything on Wikipedia, that you weren't expecting, that bothered you? Dpbsmith (talk) 01:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I'm a minor, too, but I am (I hope) mature for my age, I can handle the stuff on here. But there's another aspect to be thought of: law suits. If a minor (read: an innocent 5 year old) was to see....questionable material, the parents might get angry. And yes, you can sue websites (*cough* Napster *cough*). Ideas and comments? HereToHelp 20:32, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

The statement does not mean that content allowed to stay on Wikipedia is not moderated at all. A great amount of content is ultimately censored, for example under the Neutral Point of View and Verifiability rules, certain language is not allowed to stay. Moreover, there may be censorship of content according to the desires of the community and editors of the page. The statement Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors is really a technical one.. we have no technical means available to censor content in a way that would be adequate to protect minors, without compromising the way the Wiki works (I.E. that anyone can edit the page); to effectively protect minors, EVERY edit, and EVERY upload would have to be approved by a human before it could appear on the site -- this would break the foundation principle, that any visitor can edit any page (and don't have to register). In the situation where anyone can edit any page, how do we tell if some piece of text or imagery is bad enough that it needs to be censored or not, because every user's community has different cultural ideas about what it is ok for minors to see, versus what needs to be hidden from them, different people will have different ideas of what we are claiming if we said Wikipedia is censored for the protection of minors -- in some cultures, it may be just fine for minors to see pictures of anatomy, they wouldn't expect this to be censored; in others, merely a picture with people in scant clothing, any appearance of distasteful language (even in say a quote, or article about the word), profanity would expected to be censored -- to respect other cultures, Wikipedia might even have to suppress certain political ideas and imagery as well as violent, gory ideas, sexual ideas, etc. By trying to or claiming to do any censorship, Wikipedia would be opening up a can of worms, possibly opening itself up to action, if the measures taken to censorship weren't drastic enough so that nobody could say the statement was a lie -- by offending any culture that finds something distasteful, which happens to not be censored, and by attempting to say Wikipedia is safe for minors, the result is probably a big mess.

To even attempt a censored edition of Wikipedia, it would need to be a read-only version frozen in time based on stable revisionins of articles, and careful review by some exceptional censors. (The ability to edit an article on the fly is something that has to be lost to achieve such a goal) --Mysidia (talk) 01:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

If they go looking for porn and profanity it's their own problem,not our's or Wikipedia's. Dudtz 9/29/05 4:26 PM EST

I believe we should provide some level of censorship for minors, such as banning hardcore porn links on an article on Deep Throat (the secret Watergate source). StuRat 17:47, 7 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Other Wikis

Latest comment: 20 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Shouldn't we make an article called What a wiki is not so we can describe the overall circumstances of Wikipedia and other Wikis? I mean, don't other Wikis have censorship? and are they not supposed to be link farms? --SuperDude 08:09, 26 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

It would be a good idea, but you really can't genralize. If it's out of wikipedia and her sister projects, even if it's inspired by Wikipedia, it can be anything, so long as it's editable by the public. HereToHelp 20:34, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Crystal ball section

Latest comment: 19 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

This was aggressively worded to favour deletion. In my experience, proponents of deletion who rely on this section in debates on an article very often lose. It did not reflect the balance of opinion revealed by votes. If we can have an example of one that (probably) would be deleted, we can have a more realistic illustration of what it likely to be kept. CalJW 23:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

Please do not add proposed changes so quickly. For a major policy page like WP:WWIN you should give several days for people from around the community to comment. Four hours doesn't suffice. Also, propose changes in specific terms, so that people know what they're discussing. Superm401 | Talk 03:18, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
Here it is the proposed amended part. It describes the actual state of play. On the other hand the existing section describes what deletionists would like to happen, but does not reflect the facts about the articles that exist or what happens when future events are put to the vote. There at least several hundred articles about future events in Wikipedia, but the existing section would make you thing there would only be a handful.
Future events are sometimes unencyclopedic, especially if they are unverifiable until they have actually occurred. In particular:
Individual scheduled or expected future events, should only be included if planning or preparation for the event is already in progress; or speculation is well documented, such as with the 2008 U.S. presidential election. Some events may be notable well in advance: 2020 Summer Olympics survived a deletion vote in 2005. The schedule as a whole may also be appropriate.
CalJW 22:31, 1 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
I'd keep the first part, but for the second just put:
Individual scheduled or expected future events, should only be included if the event is notable. If planning or preparation for the event isn't already in progress, speculation about it must be well documented. Examples of appropriate topics include 2008 U.S. presidential election and the 2020 Summer Olympics. A schedule of future events itself may be appropriate.
--Superm401 | Talk 21:37, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
What you put in the article is neither what you first proposed nor the modified version I suggested. You have to specify exactly what you're going to put in before you do so. I'm reverting the changes you made. Place further comments or exact proposals about the crystal ball section in the talk section above. This section will be removed in four days to simplify this page. Superm401 | Talk 03:41, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
It was somewhat more softly worded. Today, as so many days, a debate in which the crystal ball argument has been used is going overwhelmingly in favour of retention (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronald W Reagan Doral High School. It just isn't on to have a policy favours a hard line that fails to meet with approval over and over and over again. I'm restoring the section:
Future events are sometimes unencyclopedic, especially if they are unverifiable until they have actually occurred. In particular:
Individual scheduled or expected future events, should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place. If preparation for the event isn't already in progress, speculation about it must be well documented. Examples of appropriate topics include 2008 U.S. presidential election. A schedule of future events may also be appropriate.
As things are hardly ever deleted on this basis of this section, it isn't really a threat to Wikipedia's coverage of events of current interest. Conversely, as it fails to achieve the desired effect from the deletionist point of view, what is the point of insisting on maintaining a misleading version? CalJW 15:29, 23 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Some future events, especially natural ones, like eclipses or the return of Haley's Comet, are highly predictable and should be listed even if no "planning" for the event has yet occurred. StuRat 17:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

No blogs in pages, please!

Latest comment: 19 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

We need to revise WP:NOT to make it clear to everyone that Wikipedia is not a repository of links, images or other media! Just look at this diff for the Hurricane Katrina article and you'll see what I'm talking about. I don't mind having links to rescue relief wikis, lost persons message boards, but am I the only one who thinks this is excessive? --Titoxd 23:49, 1 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

  • Huh? You want to do something about policy because of one questionable link in one article? I think this falls in the "so fix it" category. Assuming the link is currently still there, and assuming you have good reasons for thinking it's inappropriate—not just because it is a blog, but because this particular link is irrelevant to this particular article--well, delete it with a reasonable edit comment and be prepared to discuss it on the article's Talk page.
  • I am personally very sensitive about the danger of linkspam, particularly linkspam to blogs, but you wouldn't get consensus that Wikipedia articles should never link to blogs (My position would be: What, never? No, never. What, never? Well, hardly ever...). And even if you did, it wouldn't stop people from putting the links in.
Sorry to interrupt, but a wiki-pet-peeve of mine is people using bullets * when they should use colons : to indent on talk pages. Sorry... had to get that off my chest MPS 15:18, 9 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia not tittle-tattle

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Should we say something that Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminat tittle-tattle about people's private lives? In particular, it is not in the business of broadcasting information about people's medical history which most people would regard as confidential, particularly any mental health problems they may have had, which if it was widely broadcast could possibly exacerabate their problems. PatGallacher 01:55, 2005 September 5 (UTC)

  • Absolutely not. Any information relevant to the article's topic and notable should be included. If it's not relevant and notable, people already know not to include it. Superm401 | Talk 03:05, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
  • This is already covered by Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. →Raul654 03:09, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
  • Also note that Wikipedia:Verifiability has an impact here. Confidential medical details are often, by the nature of the confidentiality, unverifiable. Uncle G 10:38:07, 2005-09-10 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a video game strategy guide

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I propose adding "Video game strategy guides." to the list under "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information", with a note that such guides are appropriate to create on Wikibooks. While informative articles on video games are appropriate( in some opinions, I realize this is also debated), strategies for getting through specific sections or beating certain bosses are not really encyclopedic information. What do other editors think? Specifically, does anyone have reasoned disagreement? -- WikidSmaht (talk) 05:10, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

  • I think it should be more general than that. No tutorials, video game or otherwise, belong on Wikipedia. →Raul654 05:18, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
    • I think video game strategy guides are a special case, though. First of all, "tutorials" has overtones of the above "no instruction" discussion. Also, "tutorial" has a specific meaning in video game terminology, refering to instructions or practice regarding the basics of gameplay such as play control and on-screen displays. Strategy guides, on the other hand, usually offer detailed walkthroughs and instructions for performing techniques and beating enemies and bosses. Regardless of the outcome of the "no instruction" debate, I would think we can all agree that strategy guides, as I've jsut defined them, are unencyclopedic. Am I wrong? -- WikidSmaht (talk) 07:05, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

For a few, out of the many, examples of how Wikipedia and Wikibooks are already being used successfully in combination for games:

Wikipedia Wikibooks
EverQuest EverQuest
Grand Theft Auto:San Andreas Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
Super Mario 64 Super Mario 64
Super Mario World Super Mario World
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
Medal of Honor: Frontline Medal of Honor: Frontline
America's Army: Special Forces America's Army: Special Forces

Uncle G 10:38:07, 2005-09-10 (UTC)

  • I agree. It would be possible to write an encyclopedic article about, say, a specific boss, but a strategy guide isn't encyclopedic. I'm not sure if I'm wording this well, so here's an example of each (with a character I'm making up off the top of my head; any resemblance to a real video game or character is purely coincidental).
Encyclopedic: "Colonel Affeschlüssel is a character in Attack of the Werkzeugkasten. Little about him is revealed in the course of the game, beyond his hatred for Schraubenzieher, the main character in the game, and his strange affinity for using bananas as projectile weapons. In the novelizations, however, much more about his past is revealed..." et cetera
Non-encyclopedic: "Colonel Affeschlüssel is the third boss in Attack of the Werkzeugkasten. His main attacks are a flying kick that hits high, banana projectiles that hit mid-section, and the leftover banana peels that come to life and bite Schraubenzieher's feet. The best way to get past him is to first disable his banana gun by clogging it with the peanut butter you found on submarine in level one." et cetera
--Icarus 00:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Truisms

Latest comment: 19 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

This was recently added to "not an indiscriminate collection of information." I'm moving it here because I don't think it's been discussed here yet. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Truisms. Wikipedia is not a place for stating the self-evident. Wikipedia is not a Brochure, Personal Improvement Book, Motivation Seminar, Examples Book, Infant's Encyclopedia, Collection of Philosophical Axioms, or List of Half-Baked Ideas. While it might be perfectly true that "setting realistic deadlines improves an employee's performance", statements of this type are unencyclopedic.

First of all, let me apologize for being so brash and not discussing this entry first! My motivation for including "Truisms" were a number of articles that were voted for deletion simply for being "unencyclopedic", but without further explanation.

A good example is the deleted article Moon Time. It went something like this:

Moon Time refers to the time experienced by a visitor to the Moon. Relativistic gravitational effects cause time to pass slower on the moon. Austronauts must adjust their equipment to adapt to moon time

After browsing through "What Wikipedia is not" I couldn't find any points that would have objected to this article, so I added "Truisms".

It may seem trivial to include this, but I feel the deletion process could be speeded up if users could simply quote the official policy "truism" in the AfD page. Apart from that, it's not always immediatly clear that an article contains truisms, for example when they are obscured by verbose mumbo-jumbo. I remember an article called "Communication Strategies" that contained a lot of elaborate truisms hidden behind business jargon. -- Klafubra 22:04, 13 September 2005 (UTC)Reply


My own comment: true enough, and a valid category of "true yet not encyclopedic," but I'm not aware of it's being a common problem. I don't think it needs to be in WP:WIN. I don't like the particular example, either ("setting realistic deadlines improves an employee's performance") because at least one academic study found that programmer productivity was twice as high when no deadlines were set as when deadlines were set. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:44, 12 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

I would agree to including this entry. It would cover many of the things seen in speedy deletions as well as some non-encyclopedic entries on VfD. No harm in telling users what is not a good article. - Tεxτurε 21:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

I oppose it. The page is becoming too long. This section, while intentioned, is as general as much the articles it criticizes. We're better off with the specific sections we have now. If something more precise needs to be added, suggest it. This is unnecessary. Also, sometimes Wikipedia is the place for stating the self-evident, like on Windows 95, which states that Windows 95 was released in 95. Superm401 | Talk 04:29, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
"like on Windows 95, which states that Windows 95 was released in 95". That's not self-evident in my opinion. The reader has many valid reasons to assume why Windows 95 might not have been released in 1995 - perhaps is was developed in 95? perhaps it was only intended to be released in 95? perhaps Microsoft chose some future date for marketing resons? etc. -- Klafubra 22:12, 13 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
  • Well, you know, 1.7, even though broken into 7 subsections, is still pretty explicit: Wikipedia Is Not An Indiscriminate Collection of Information. Yeah, there's seven specific examples, but there's still the 1.7.* to cover everything that's unencyclopedic or unnoteworthy. It's the catch-all. The Literate Engineer 01:32, 4 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wording issue (Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia)

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I had to read these sentences three times before I understood what they meant: This also means you don't have to redirect one topic to a not fully equivalent topic that is of more common usage. A "See also" section that states further information on the topic is available on the page of a closely related topic may be preferable. My suggestion would be: The availability of space in Wikipedia means that it is not necessary for a somewhat obscure topic to be redirected to another topic which, though of more common usage, is not truly equivalent. It may be preferable to supply a "See also" section on both pages stating that further information on a closely related topic is available. Chick Bowen 18:30, 13 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not instructive

Latest comment: 19 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

This is a rather unfortunate way of putting it. "Instructive" means "serving to instruct or enlighten; conveying information" — something that I thought we were meant to be doing... Perhaps "Wikipedia is not an instruction manual", or "Wikipedia is not a practical guide"? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 19 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

  • I propose the section be taken out -- it seems apppropriate that some Wikipedia articles do give what can easily be construed as advise or how-to information, that describe a process. Strong objection to the addition of this section. --Mysidia (talk) 01:27, 22 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
I agree, Wikipedia should be instructive, whenever possible. StuRat 17:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not a babysitting service

Latest comment: 19 years ago9 comments7 people in discussion

I propose adding the following section at the end of the "What the Wikipedia community is not" section:

Wikipedia is not a babysitting service

If you can't figure out how to behave civilly on your own and read and follow appropriate policies, there's no rule that we have to spend months trying to rehabilitate you. We're glad to welcome newbies and guide them around potential mistakes. But if you continue to break the rules or push the limits when you've already been called on it, don't expect us to continue to put up with it.

Jdavidb 16:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

There must be a more polite wording, but I agree with the general sentiment. --Icarus 17:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
I don't think this is necessary. We can tolerate the confused as long as they are not disruptive. Superm401 | Talk 19:45, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Oh, I mean a message aimed at the disruptive, not the confused. My point is some folks disrupt and then when they are called on it they like to drain resources by bogging people down in discussion about what they are doing is really appropriate or not. Some expect to be put on some kind of probation and then try to push the limits during that time. Jdavidb 20:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_bold covers it well. - Bevo 20:19, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Reply
Moreover, no one has to engage in any discussion that they think is a waste of resources. 205.217.105.2 22:24, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Noone has to engage in any discussions, but policing those who violate policies is still necessary. Such policing usually involves interacting with the violator to some extent. Jdavidb 23:06, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

WP:BEANS. -Splashtalk 23:30, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

I concur with Splash. I hadn't known about WP:BEANS; it's relevant here. Expression the above sentiment is very, very unlikely to have a positive influence on anyone's behavior. It is also not very concordant with assuming good faith and Wikilove. I tend to think we err too much on the side of patience and "babysitting," but better to err in that direction than the other. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy?

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Then why is there a position called bureaucrat? Dudtz 9/25/05 4:23 PM EST

I wondered about this one too. The neutral definition of bureaucracy is "systematic administration characterized by specialization of functions, objective qualifications for office, action according to fixed rules, and a hierarchy of authority".
I think we have this in WP, except it's a very "flat" hierarchy of users, admins, board, and Mr. Wales
Of course what they "mean" is the negative definition of bureaucracy as "a system of administration marked by constant striving for increased functions and power, by lack of initiative and flexibility, by indifference to human needs or public opinion, and by a tendency to defer decisions to superiors or to impede action with red tape".
I think it's worth clarifying the difference in the article, because WP does have self-administrating characteristics covered by the neutral definition of bureaucracy. (P.S. quotes are from unabridged.merriam-webster.com) -- Sitearm | Talk 04:57, 30 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Suggested addition

Latest comment: 19 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Wikipedia is not a repository of failed plans and might-have-beens. This could be an ancillary point to "not a crystal ball."

I voted and recently commented on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy which I expect, unfortunately, will go no consensus. George Lucas verifiably said he wanted to make a trilogy of sequels to Star Wars. He now says he won't and there is absolutely no plan for it. So why do we have a page entitled "The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy"? The person who created the page wants to describe what they believe the non-existent movies would like if they were actually made. I really find this unbelievable. Marskell 21:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Well, personally I'd like to see any verifiable information on the subject provided in Wikipedia. The editor's summary of the purpose of the article is atrocious and invalid under the "no original research" rule, among others, and the existing title breaks naming conventions ("Star Wars sequel trilogy" would be better, but we could probably do even better than that). Phenomenons such as "the virtual sequels project," which last I checked appeared to have aborted, could be included as well. I'm not sure a separate article is really the right way to do it, though. Jdavidb 22:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)Reply
Yes, a seperate article is not the right way to do it, which was my thought in posting the above comment. Of course it could be included on Star Wars speculation or even George Lucas. Despite OR and despite crystal ball it's getting keeps: I'd just like a formal rule to point to. Do you agree with adding the above? It could be useful in general. Marskell 09:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

But where and/or under what title? The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy does not exist anymore than the Al Gore Presidency exists. I'm not saying don't mention, I'm saying don't give it a page. Marskell 13:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Another proposed addition

Latest comment: 19 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Expanding on some thoughts in the talk page for Wikipedia:Importance, how about this?

-- begin proposed text --

Wikipedia is not an arbiter of importance or taste

Wikipedia is not an arbiter of importance or taste. We are not in the business of determining the worth or merit of a topic to society. We are not a Social Register. We do not exclude topics based on the belief that they may be considered controversial, offensive, politically incorrect, low-brow, pseudoscientific, or apocryphal (although when we do cover such topics, we will note controversy where it exists, as required by NPOV). Nor does Wikipedia exhibit a preference for high art over pop culture, Beethoven over Britney Spears, or museums over monster trucks. We are concerned with compiling the knowledge and experience of all mankind, regardless of social status.

While we do occasionally reject articles due to lack of importance, this is done to exclude such things as vanity and self-promotion. Any real-world topic which is encyclopedic, verifiable, and which is (or was at one point) of demonstrable interest to some segment of humanity, is appropriate for Wikipedia.

-- end proposed text --

Comments? --EngineerScotty 18:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

I agree that "Wikipedia is not an arbiter of taste," and the specific examples you give in the first paragraph are true and well-chosen.
I have a problem with saying that Wikipedia is not an arbiter of importance.
By your own showing, Wikipedia must be an arbiter of what is "encyclopedic." Whatever that means.
And you say a topic must have "demonstrable interest to some segment of humanity." Well, that means we must indeed be arbiters of whether a topic is of some interest to "some segment of humanity." If that's not "importance," I don't know what is.
Now, what do we mean by "some segment of humanity?" You dodge this. The topic of a vanity biography is of enormous interest to "some" segment of humanity, namely one person, and in most cases of "some" interest to that person's couple of hundred personal acquaintances.
If we are going to exclude vanity biographies, and verifiable descriptions of the five fire hydrants located on East Brewster Street, Harvey, North Dakota, and individual articles on the astronomical events expected to take place in the years 2619, 2620, and 2621—and I happen to think we do—then, by golly, we have to be "arbiters of importance."
So, while I endorse the first paragraph and think it might do some good, I think the second is yet another failed attempt to cut the Gordian knot of "notability/importance" and is better omitted. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2005 (UTC)Reply
I agree; add the first paragraph, and not the second. As a preference, I'd prefer removing "Wikipedia is not a Social Register". First of all, it detacts from the style to have a "Wikipedia is not" within another. More importantly, the statement is mere repetition, and seems to implicitly condemn Social Registers. It's not that important, though. Superm401 | Talk 21:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)Reply
When it comes to "cutting the Gordian knot of importance/notability", guilty as charged. :) I have no objection to keeping vanity articles out, and such. Regarding articles on North Dakota fire hydrants and astronomical events six centuries hence (and other such trivia), the biggest factor excluding those is likely to be a lack of editors willing to write such articles, except possibly as violations of WP:POINT. At any rate, when such things occur, I have no problem with excluding them. However, it seems that the level of notability which is required in order to filter out vanity, useless trivia, etc. is often used to filter out subjects which are arguably notable (not vanity, not trivia) but only of importance to a particular region or subculture. (WP:MUSIC is a good example; it practically demands that a band be nationally noticed before being deemed "notable"; I can think of many well-established, well-known regional acts that wouldn't qualify for inclusion under WP:MUSIC. Maybe I should go take it up there). I'd like to find ways of lowering the bar, to include more regional/alternative material, while still finding ways to keep out the true rubbish. And my bias is to err on the side of inclusion. --EngineerScotty 22:07, 5 October 2005 (UTC)Reply
I think the bar is, if anything too low on many topics. In any case, whereever we set the bar, i think some level of notability is essential to an encyclopedia article. Wikipedia:Notability proposal is an attempt to make this explicit. It would amend WP:NOT to say that wikipedia is not for articles about non-notable subjects. DES (talk) 23:24, 5 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Notability proposal

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Wikipedia:Notability proposal is a proposal to explicitly make "notability" a requirement for Wikipedia articles, and to explicitly include "lack of notability" as a reason for deleting articles. Please visit Wikipedia talk:Notability proposal and express your view on the proposal. DES (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Page of images serving as a visual index?

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I would like to get input from some more Wikipedians on this topic which may have wider implications. There is a discussion in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Images of castles which refers to the page Images of castles. The Images of castles page is a collection of castle images sorted by country with links to the appropriate pages for each castle. The page was nominated for deletion on the grounds that it is a collection of images. I and a few others feel that such a page actually serves as a visual index which provides value added information in terms of improving the ability of a user to find the appropriate page they desire. In this case, a castle can be found if you know what it looks like but have no other information (e.g. name or ___location) to allow a search string-based search. It is possible that other such indices scattered throughout Wikipedia would be extremely useful.

Does anyone know if there have been any discussions about the use of such pages? Do others feel a visual index is a useful thing to have? Hilmar 11:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not on a deadline

Latest comment: 19 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

I added this section because it comes up from time to time; I didn't seriously think anyone thought Wikipedia was on a deadline; but it was reverted. I'm putting this here for discussion so the dissenting voices can name a date. Demi T/C 14:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

If you think everyone already knows this, why does it need to be on the page? As someone said, that's needless "instruction creep". When I reverted, I wasn't disputing whether it was true, but rather whether it should be enumerated. Wikipedia isn't a pizza, but we're not going to say that because it's obvious. Superm401 | Talk 17:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not on a deadline. But remember what wikiwiki means. And remember that the first impressions we give to new users matter, so don't suppose that saying "we're not on a deadline" is carte-blanche to allow rotten articles to fester. -Splashtalk 19:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Clarification of "not paper"

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Earlier on this page, someone points out that part of the "Wikipedia is not paper" section is confusing. And it is. I've tried to clarify by pointing out that Wikipedia content is always encyclopedic, but not necessarily exactly what would appear in Britannica or World Book. Right now, the explanation of this section really only has to do with article length and depth, not with subject matter. The second paragraph deals with subject matter is opaque. I tried to make it less so by adding:

Another way of stating this precept is that Wikipedia is not (only) a general encyclopedia; it can also be a set of specialized encyclopedias.

Demi T/C 20:46, 13 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

I think we need to be careful with the language. Wikipedia is foremost a general encyclopedia, but it is also a specialist encyclopedia in so far as it doesn't conflict. This is usually possible because wiki is not paper, but it should be considered when we decide how to seperate up articles, how we write intros, etc. Kat and I have discussed this a number of times.. I'll come back and propose some more language after my flight, and perhaps after talking to her some more about it. --Gmaxwell 21:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)Reply


What is Wikipedia??

Latest comment: 19 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Question and proposed answer:
Well sure it's an online encyclopedia. But why? What is it's purpose? Well the best use I've seen of it was David Morgan-Mar[2]. In his Irregular Webcomic[3]. Whenever he has something he wants to explain to readers like a complex mathematical principal or something, he adds a link to the appropriate wikipedia article. I've hear it said by users that wikipedia is not in fact an encyclopedia. I think a section like "What Wikipedia is" would do well here for the benefit of new users. Olleicua 13:49, 14 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

See Wikipedia:About, Wikipedia:FAQ, Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers, and especially Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia is so great. Superm401 | Talk 23:26, 14 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, I added those links to the see also section Olleicua 21:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Censorship

We should start a new edition of Wikipedia:

Proposal application: 

-Language:English
-Theme:Censored for the protection of minors
-Identity code for new edition:Enc
-Things to be censored:
--Swear words:
---Code for censorship (Swear word=----- ----)
---Ass=$$@
---Bitch=317)#
---Fuck=6!(3
---Nigger=^1663R
---Shit=$%)7
--Pornography and nudity will be blurred unless there is some graphic censorship applied.

--A way to censor condemned words shall be to automatically substitute them with random symbols.

Some minors are utilizing an encyclopedia, but censorship may be needed for some audiences.

(unsigned comment from anon)


It's time for "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" to be renamed

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have already had the tone of this section moderated, but I now think it needs a name change. People continue to use it on articles for deletion, and it continues to be heavily rejected whenever the topic is of any substance and significant information is available. Current nomination Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ottawa municipal election, 2006, which relies on this clause, has been rejected by all eight people who have commented on it so far. The phrase is needlessly provocative, and its main effect seems to be to give people false hope that doomed nominations have a chance, thereby creating frustration and ill feeling. I suggest it should be retitled: "Wikipedia is not a repository for unverifiable speculation about the future" The introduction should be made more positive along the lines of "All forward looking articles must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred."

This isn't going to change the outcome of any votes, but it should reduce the number of pointless nominations and cut down on any resulting ill feeling. Even with the text of the section softened, the attention grabbing title misleads would be deletionists about what the consensus really is articles about the future. The number of articles about the future is in four figures, but some people still seem to think that this section implies forward looking articles should automatically be deleted. They are being misled by the title. CalJW 15:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

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