Talk:Holodomor
Quality
the rapid changes over recent days have made the article a holy mess. I think we should try to clean up the grammar and style very soon... Dietwald 14:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Bogus references snd quotes
I don't understand, how a quote by the former Politburo member Alexander Yakovlev about at least 5 million of the dead as the result of the Holodomor changed into "3-6 million" in the article, while still referring to the same text: [1]. This is nothing but original source doctoring. The source says one thing, but it says it in Russian, so the unsuspected English reader can be fooled into believing some editor's made-up data.
I would like to mention again the quote of the US Government Commission. Again, the sentence has been cut in half, crippling its meaning. I don't understand how someone could make this serious violation of Wikipedia policies for so many times. This is going beyond the scope of this article. We are lacking the support of a responsible administrator, unfortunately. Perhaps it's time to get some attention. I was hoping this could be resolved via dialog and consensus. I was trying to provide as many sources as possible, while the other side continues doctoring and deleting those sources.--Andrew Alexander 19:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
- Because the US government comission's quote is wrong, ethnically and geographically, and again factually (Don suffered more than Kuban) evidence for all this I have provided, moreover why put it in the lead paragraph, put it in the politisation or What is genocide, leave out half of it and I am alright with that.Kuban kazak 19:55, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
- I believe an honest arument would involve posting the evidence sources in the article. Unfortunately, you don't have them. The geography question has been resolved in this discussion above, providig you with multiple references, with you providing none. The "Don suffered more" was again just your own statement without a single source. This article is not about making arbitrary statements, it's about providing trustworthy sources and data. Deleting those sources is not the way to prove or disprove something. You know it, yet you continue doing it.--Andrew Alexander 20:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
- What are you talking about I provided none? Ask anyone from Ossetia or Balkaria where North Caucasus area ends, they will say their republic, ask anyone in the Kuban are they North Caucasus (despite the fact that in 360 degrees around them is nothing but level steppe). They will point and laugh their heads off. Whilst geographically prikavkazie may be correct but only to the terriotry south of the Kuban river. Yet the Kuban territory extends much northern Caucasus steppe than the river so what the source is saying that Ukranians lived only south of the river. In fact Balachka is herd more in the northern provinces, the south speak a more Russian based dialect. . Kuban kazak 21:32, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Right off the bat User:Kuban kazak goes and deletes 3 references on Kuban's famine in 1933: [2]. One is a quote from the US Gov Commission, second is the British diplomatic reports, third is an article from 1933 Daily Telegraph.--Andrew Alexander 20:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
- I did not delete the sources I moved them from the lead paragraph where they do not belong taking them as the comission's reports as the absoloute truth is unacceptable, and incorrect. The comission should not be taken as ABSOLOUTE correct, and should definetely not belon in the lead paragraph.Kuban kazak 21:32, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
- You have deleted and doctored several quote sentences during this edit: [3], yet you haven't provided any other reference except for a link to some Russian news website. I am not even sure how an article about genetic evidence of certain nose shapes and Russian last names in 2002 relates to the 1933 famine.--Andrew Alexander 23:18, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
- The census of 2002 clearly shows that none who considered themselves Cossacks chose to be Ukrainians,
- And could that be because of the certain events in 1933? And HOW does census of 2002 relate to 1933, any ideas, K.k.?--Andrew Alexander 21:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)--Andrew Alexander 21:04, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- Because by 2002 there was many more destinct people than in 1926, and it was not politically pressed to ignore cossacks as destinct people. Not all Cossacks are Slavic, you have Bashkirs serving in the Ural voiskos and Tatars in Astrakhan, and if the people chose Cossacks they had to specify their ethnic roots. None chose Ukrainian. So I say again how could events of 1933 determine the present outcome of us, Kuban Cossacks? If all Kuban Cossacks died in 1933 there would be no successors today right? Yet how do my family records clearly show linage including the migration from Zaporozhia to our current stanitsa. Orders from my anscestors (including 9 crosses of St. George) as well as pre 1933 photographs clearly show the opposite. Am I the only example, well go to any stanitsa, go to the HQ of the Great Krasnodar Voisko, read some of the original manuscripts.
- the census of 1926 shows that with the Dekazakated stanitsas it was impossible for the census takers to determine from the people were they Russian or Ukrainians
- Yes, it was possible, and the census takers did determine it, through linguistic tests. Yet, as they wrote, there was an order to disregard these tests and split the population equally. Is there something you disagree with here, K.k.?--Andrew Alexander 21:04, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- Look I am Russian and I can understand Ukrainian perfectely (except for the Galician dialect). The languages are not that dissimilar, I am sure that any Russian who never herd Ukrainian will get the main point. Yet read again when it said about reading Ukrainian, none could read it. Moreover the balachka is a mix of Russian and Ukrainian, its like Suzhik but different, and regardless where I speak it Moscow or Rovno, I am still perfectly understood.Kuban kazak 16:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- (in ethnical terms ie Veliko or Malorossians) since all in unison said they are neither, they are Cossacks. Do you want a copy of the 1926 census? Why not try to find it if it exists online. And the newspaper article is important since it proves that the genetic pool of the Kuban area does not match that of the other Ukraine, in fact it turned out to be the purest of all Russian territories. So unless you suggest that all Ukrainians that lived in the Kuban died in 1933 then I don't understand you, and even more if all ethnical Ukrainians in 1933 were Cossacks, how could you have Cossacks in every stanitsa today who show clear family linage to the original Zaporozhians?Kuban kazak 23:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
- Unless there are some problems reading, then you MUST understand everything very well, K.k.
- You just come here and write stuff based on no confirmed sources, except the one from the 1926 census, which contradicted you so bad. But what's worse, you engage in deletion and doctoring of valid sources and quotes.--Andrew Alexander 21:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- How did it contradict me.
Crediblity
The credibly bankrupt Robert Conquest is cited as a source for this imaginary "holocaust famine" of the Ukraine even though he and his ilk have habitually presented bogus figures of executions during 1937-1938 and the total population of the GULAG. The alleged deaths 7mn deaths in Ukraine during 1932-1933 is inconsistent with the conclusions of demographers Barbara Anderson and Eric Silver who when observing the data from the 1926 and 1939 censuses calculated that between 3.2mn and 5.5mn people died unnaturally throughout the SU. This period included 680,000 executions during 1937-1938 and 240,000 deaths in the Gulag starting in 1934. Sergei Maksudov, the much cited emigre scholar, revised his conclusion to 3.5mn premature deaths in during this period, 700,000 resulted from starvation while the rest were from disease including typhus, malaria, and cholera. In 1949, Naum Jasny crudely estimated 5.5 million deaths from famine. In 1961, he revised the toll to "perhaps a million" during the period.
In the period 1922-1928, a free market was in place for grain. In 1929, deliveries of grain to the cities decreased to 4.8mn tons from 6.8mn tons during the previous year. In the period 1928-1929, reaction to the revolution in the countryside included 1,300 riots while 3,200 Soviet civil servants were the victims of terrorist attacks. In this class war during which the bloc consisting of the rural masses and the urban working-class strived for the collective ownership of agriculture, the state from which these classes depended on, provided assistance to their cause by exiling two million of ten million kulaks to Central Asia and Siberia. This is what really took place. Food shortages resulted, but to assert that 7mn were somehow starved to death while an additional 10mn were deported to the Arctic circle is utterly preposterous considering that 6mn Ukrainians were murdered during the period 1941-1945. In 1913, the population of Ukraine numbered at 35mn; in 1940, it numbered at 41mn and remained unchanged in 1959. To summarise, a total of 2mn kulaks were exiled while a high-end figure of 3mn died prematurely during the period 1928-1933 from a combination of disease and the unrest that contributed to food shortages.
Wikipedia sucks!!!!
Pleae stop writing out of nowhere and edition war. Please read articles and works at the end of uk:Голодомор (especially by Kulchitskiy) (in Ukrainian). By the way tomorrow uk:Голодомор will become featured article of the week, although I was against. The article is not so good, but however I've copied something from Kulchitskiy to make it not so non-sense. Ilya K 16:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- I did not read Ukrainian version yet, but I will try to do so soon, but the your edit is by far the most neutral we had, so well done. Don't blame an international encyclopedia for this though, lets keep the lid on the kettle. А то тут некоторые (не будем пальцами показывать) так закипитяться.... Kuban kazak 16:27, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- Have read it (well scanned it) and I must say excellent piece of work.Kuban kazak 16:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Photos
I have tagged the images (Image:Holodomor1.jpg, Image:Holodomor2.jpg, Image:Holodomor3.jpg, Image:Holodomor4.jpg, Image:Holodomor5.jpg) with {{no source}} (rather than {{somewebsite}}, since no source is given - therefore nobody can work out the copyright). This means the images can be deleted after 5 days unless the source is given. Thanks/wangi 17:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Here is one source, from wiki itself.Kuban kazak 18:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks, I've updated Image:Holodomor1.jpg from there - although I've now tagged it {{unknown}} since we have source but the licencing is still unknown. wangi 18:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- Wangi, the images belong to the Ukrainian government archive: http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/index.php. There are many more on that website, some are very graphic. These photos are available for public distribution and being used by multiple online publications, e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4471256.stm. --Andrew Alexander 20:49, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Regarding image layout: I agree that the postage-stamp sized pictures were rather unrecognizable, but "decorating" the article with these un-captioned images of suffering seems a bit exploitative or at least insensitive to me. Why not arrange them back in the gallery with some captions which explain their relevance? —Michael Z. 2005-11-25 22:43 Z
- Following this logic, any image addition can be called "decorating the article" or even "exploitative". At the time the images were posted, it was known that the photos relate to the Holodomor, but not the exact circumstances of the images. --Andrew Alexander 22:50, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- But people would be hurt if you assume bad faith every time someone posts an image without a caption. I will provide better images and this time with captions soon. Please don't accuse me of "decorating" and "exploiting" next time.--Andrew Alexander 00:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
FYI User:Mikkalai has edited these images so they are again no-source etc - so if you know where the image is from then update the source/copyright info on them. Thanks/wangi 08:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- I assumed 70 years already passed since they were taken, so their copyright already expired. Is this incorrect ? --Wojsyl (talk) 08:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Not correct. It is unknown who is the owner of the images. If it is a Russian/Ukrainian/Soviet, no problemo. If someone else, it does not matter that the images are on the Ukraine gov website. The "source" does not mean the place where you found them. "My buddy gave me them and he found them in his grandpa's newspaper clippings" is a no-go. The source is the place where sufficient infor about (a) the content and circumstances of the photo and (b) ownership.
- So there is a more serious problem here, rather than copyright. For all I know, these pics may be photos of people dies from Dysenteria in Iran. Therefore unless the exact information will be provided who and when took them, sorry, they will be removed. mikka (t) 18:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Oh come on, be serious. Do you really think that whoever made the pictures of Holodomor victims would be revealing his name so that NKVD would get him ? This does not matter anyway, as whoever took them, the copyright expired after 70 years so it seems all right to assume they are PD (actually this is what the PD box says: "copyright expired"). --Wojsyl (talk) 22:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Holodomor Investigation Commission Unproven Bias
It seems strange that a piece of the summary of one of such commission, the US Government Commission, is moved away from the intro. The summary is very brief and supported by around 10 volumes of findings from over 200 witness and various documents. There was a similar investigation conducted in Ukraine around 1990, but its findings were hidden at the time by the Soviet authorities. There were some objections to calling a region in Kuban of 1933 "ethnically Ukrainian", but the objection was disproved by the editor himself, when he provided a text from the 1926 census report here. Another objetion was due to the fact that Kuban was disputed to be in North Caucasus, which was again disproved with references here. At this point there are no other significant references or documents that contradict the US Governement Commission findings. It must be noted that these findings are rather unique due to their independent nature. These findings can't be swept aside as "biased" since there is no proof of that has been presented. If there is such proof, please post it here. Please limit it as much as possible to actual references and links.
- "independent", "third party"... Are you naive or what?
- I am probably. Hoping desperately to hear some factual objections.--Andrew Alexander 00:31, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- I gave facts yet which come from research not from comissions that make mistkakes (as they did in the past.Kuban kazak 16:04, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- But this is beside the point. This is wikipedia's article, not USGov's. We have our style here. An intro is a summary. Quotations go where they are relevant, to support our article, not vice versa. mikka (t) 23:37, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- That's fine. I still would like to see some valid reasons the findings have been swept aside. If these reasons exist. Otherwise, any findings, witnesses, quotes, documents can be discarded for no reason at all. If Russia or some other country made their own investigations of the Holodomor, let's hear it.--Andrew Alexander 00:31, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
It seems that there are no other arguments except for "are you naive or what" by mikka. This is a last call. Unless people disliking the findings of the US Government Commission find more serious arguments, the finding will be quoted again in the intro. They appear important. Any reference of such depth must be posted in the intro because it would make the best definition of the Holodomor. I do include in this all the serious and reputable references, even if they may contradict the US Government Commission. This way the truth may come out instead of being lost in empty speculation.--Andrew Alexander 05:40, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- It's better to keep the intro as short as possible, i.e., one or two sentences in Plain English. On the one hand, a short intro is good for public relations. On the other hand, it is less likely to be subject of edit wars. Findings of whatever commission are supporting material and should be in the main text. And, indeed, noone is unbiased in this world. Sashazlv 05:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- The current intro looks empty. Compare it, for instance, with Holocaust or Armenian Genocide. No doubt that commission's findings should be quoted in full within the article body. However, the most important sentence or two must be in the intro due to the reason outlined above. Will it be reverted? No doubt about that. There are plenty of reverts going on in this article without a word on the discussion page. This discussion is a call to all responsible editors to provide their objections and references. The truth, however inconvenient, will be brought first into this article. It should not be hidden just because someone dislikes for some irrational and unfounded reasons. Otherwise, Ilya is right and "Wikipedia sucks", which can't be true.--Andrew Alexander 06:44, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- To me, the intro in Holocaust is too long. On the contrary, the intro in Holodomor is almost ideal. It succinctly identifies the subject (man-made famine), place (Ukraine), and time (1932-33). It also adds two main details: approximate number of victims and current legal status in some jurisdictions. For an intro, that's enough (others might disagree, but tastes differ). I would move the commemoration date somewhere in the main text: it's too specific and minor detail and, after all, it's a relatively recent innnovation.
I just have an impression that people forget that an intro is an intro and an article is not supposed to be a novel. Sashazlv 07:18, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- One more general thing/advice. If you want to send a clear message, think how to structure and pack information. The better it is structured and packed, the broader is your audience. That's why succinct intros are important for public relations reason. We are not writing articles here for ourselves. Sashazlv 07:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keeping an intro to one or two short paragraphs is very commmon in Wikipedia. The current intro lacks several important points. They include:
- the outline of geographical extent and severity -- where did it happen?
- the status of publicly available evidence -- how is it known?
- the premeditation summary -- who did it and why?
- Without any of this even mentioned it's hard to dive into the details. One must realize that not everyone is as well familiar with the subject and having a short outine in the intro helps. So please contribute something in terms of important references and facts contradicting the commission conclusions. An argument "it's great to have the intro very short" isn't exactly enough. There must be some substance.--Andrew Alexander 07:58, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- I actually find it a good comparison to Armenian genocide, it can be as well mimiced, due to similarity in situation with denial. I do not understand the big deal with that actual wording, but requiring it to be definitive while cutting clauses from it, would be irrational, it could lead to what you've seen as my first response, which I think now was incorrect.
- So why not you just write in your own words that the commision recognised it, and some more info, about recognition. I have WP:POPUP on and what I see come up as first 4 sentences in the lead is unsatisfactory.
- I've read up from the links in Ukrainian wiki, and the actual article it has good discussion about Kuban in the article, I think after the authors finish their FA chores we could ask them a couple of questions on improving this one. –Gnomz007(?) 07:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- I actually find it a good comparison to Armenian genocide, it can be as well mimiced, due to similarity in situation with denial. I do not understand the big deal with that actual wording, but requiring it to be definitive while cutting clauses from it, would be irrational, it could lead to what you've seen as my first response, which I think now was incorrect.
Very common does not imply good. Anyway, as I said, tastes differ. Do whatever you want. Sashazlv 07:59, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Meanwhile, all the serious Wikipedia editors participating in this article, please formulate what exactly can't be agreed on in the US Government Commission findings and why. Please keep it short and provide references. This will help in understanding the problem.--Andrew Alexander 08:10, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Kuban Kazak, you're repeatedly changing this paragraph:
- As independently confirmed by the US Government Commission on the Ukrainian Famine ([12]) from over 200 witnesses as well as documented data, the Holodomor was caused by the seizure of the 1932 crop by the Soviet authorities. It was also confirmed that "while famine took place during the 1932-1933 agricultural year in the Volga Basin and the North Caucasus Territory as a whole, the invasiveness of Stalin's interventions of both the Fall of 1932 and January 1933 in Ukraine are paralleled only in the ethnically Ukrainian Kuban region of the North Caucasus" (also [13], [14]). The Soviet authorities made sure to prevent the starving from traveling to areas where food was more available.
into:
- The US Government sent a commission to investigate Ukrainian Famine ([12], ([13], [14]]) from live witnesses and documented data. It concluded that although the famine went outside Ukraine's borders into the Volga Basin and the Don and Kuban steppes of Russia, yet the full extensiveness of Stalin's intervention in crop seizure was seen only in the Ukaine and the Russian territory of the Kuban. The latter it claims had significant Ukrainian population, although this has been disproved. ([15], 1926 census appendix 2b, 2002 census)
Please try to explain your changes in detail. Specifically why do you insist that the commission was "sent" ? What do you mean by this ? --Wojsyl (talk) 16:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- Can I second that, I particularly do not understand why he needed to delete The Soviet authorities made sure to prevent the starving from traveling to areas where food was more available. despite the directives of SNK.
- The sentance appears outside the quote, and if it is meant to come from the same source then grammatically it is a mess, which even more implies why the original statement needs modification. If it is a separate statement, then it serves no need to mentioned more than once (unless to point out specific detail) the point it makes is fully incorporated in the main article.Kuban kazak 20:42, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- I do not understand The fact of significant past presense of Ukrainian population in Kuban are claimed to have been disproved by some based on the following: (1926 census appendix 2b, 2002 census).. This is original research, no reason to include that, it can be used as heuristic to determine where to send horses, but no more than that.
- But, Andrew Alexander, I want to sound an objection to some POV in the statement about official policy of covering up crimes - I've never heard of such policy being official, this is pure POV. It may look obvious from not opening the archives, OTOH if it is that obvious, why write it at all.
- The Soviet policy of covering up crimes against humanity was fairly consistent and did not simply limit to hiding NKVD archives. It included public campaigns of desinformation, persecution of dissident historians and journalists. The policy was somewhat relaxed during "perestroyka", however, much of it was still in place. For instance, thousands of Holodomor testimonies gathered in Ukraine around 1990 were sealed from the public. Russia essentially continues on the same course. E.g., Baltic countries don't have much success getting Russia's acknowledgement of crimes against humanity on their territories. Official media often labels such requests as "anti-Russian". --Andrew Alexander 06:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- Such policy can not annonced officially, nor acknowledged without an international scandal. Until they give it up, everything else is allegations, even if it was by international community. At most if you can find evidence of such requests declined and write precisely that. I suck at googling so you do it. –Gnomz007(?) 07:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- The Soviet policy of covering up crimes against humanity was fairly consistent and did not simply limit to hiding NKVD archives. It included public campaigns of desinformation, persecution of dissident historians and journalists. The policy was somewhat relaxed during "perestroyka", however, much of it was still in place. For instance, thousands of Holodomor testimonies gathered in Ukraine around 1990 were sealed from the public. Russia essentially continues on the same course. E.g., Baltic countries don't have much success getting Russia's acknowledgement of crimes against humanity on their territories. Official media often labels such requests as "anti-Russian". --Andrew Alexander 06:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- Also layout, you moved the quote to the intro, sacrificing it in the body of the article, making the discussion around it constarained to the size of intro.–Gnomz007(?) 19:42, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- Kuban kazak wrote in the recent edit summary when reterting back to his version of the quote:
- "When sources are given, one has to remember that they are sources, and thus approach them as such. US governmet comissions made mistakes in past, that has to be rememvbered as well.) "
- Honestly, I am not sure what this means. Yes, source are indeed only sources. And yes, they can make mistakes. That's not the reason do modify external quotes.--Andrew Alexander 18:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- Unrelated as it is, it proved that potentially the credibility of the source is wrong. Also I personally think that instead of quoting directely it is better to present it in a third person style, which is why I modified it. I mean it is not a case of wether a source is wrong or not, it has to be presented as a source.
- With Kuban I suggest that the dispute is removed from this article and separately taken up elsewhere. This is my improved version:
- The US Government in (year) sent a commission to investigate the Famine ([12], ([13], [14]]) from live witnesses and documented data. It concluded that although the famine went outside Ukraine's borders into the Volga Basin and the Don and Kuban steppes of Russia, however only the Ukraine and the Russian territory of Kuban (which it claims had Ukrainian population, subject to controversy) (wikilink with the | to the Kuban Cossacks or create a new article etc) saw the full extensiveness of Stalin's intervention in crop seizure was seen. This suggests that the famine was genocidal against Ukrainians in particular and hence the US government officially recognises it as such. Kuban kazak 20:42, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- Let me get this straight. You're saying that because the Bush administration has been accused of lying about WMD in Iraq, U.S. government publications are to be treated as suspect? Or is it all U.S. sources? Does your determination just go back to the late 1980s, or all the way to 1776? —Michael Z. 2005-11-26 23:35 Z
- Not just 1980s, Gulf of Tonkin incident, secret bombings of Cambodia, Iran contra etc. but thats not my point all I am trying to point out is that a source should treated as a source, thereby avoiding lines like "as independentely confirmed" which is incorrect considering that it goes against NPOV, and remove the Kuban issue , you want to discuss my homeland create a new article and wikilink it from here. Kuban kazak 12:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
New Intro
Ok, I have tried to keep everybody happy with the new intro. I think there is no need to get the whole Kuban: Russian or Ukrainian? into the intro. Make a short reference to the problem in the text, and link it to a separate WIKI entry.
I think the Intro is still too long, but I also think that it has squared the circle a little.
Also, the quote by the Commission was way too long for the Intro. Nothing wrong with it as such, but it belongs later in the text. An Intro is an intro.
Dietwald 10:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Dietwald, your new intro was full of typos and pure nonsense. Sorry about that, but one can't just decide to slaughter the whole paragraph for no real good reason. The new one wasn't any shorter. It was simply trying to cut out proven facts and replace them with some unproven ones. I have nothing against you rephrasing the sentence of the US Government Commission. But it has to be done sensibly, with consultations on the discussion page. Let's see some real arguments with real references and quotes prior to editing please.--Andrew Alexander 10:40, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- allright, allright... I just thought i give it a try.... What I tried to do was include a little bit of everything from everyone. I think i have stated before that what i really believe is that the entire holodomor would not have happened if the bloody Soviets would have actually tried to stop the famine. I don't like the direction the article is going sometimes, but... I think i will retire from this article for some time.... Dietwald 11:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, here is the text is suggested:
The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор), or the Ukrainian Genocide ([1], [2], [3]), was the 1932–1933 man-made ([4]) famine on the territory of today's Ukraine, as well as the Kuban region. (also [5], [6]).
The death toll of the Holodomor is estimated between five and ten million people.[7] (The exact number of casualties is unknown due the fact that the relevant NKVD archives have not been made accessible to historians in general). This is repeated later on, do we really need to emphasize a point twice
The holodomor was caused by a number of factors, including weather conditions.(I suggest that in the near future we create a new heading based on Polish crop yields in Volyn-see Volyn section) However, the economic and social policies of the Soviet government are generally considered to have been the main causes. According to the US Government Commission on the Ukrainian Famine ([8]), the Holodomor was caused by the seizure of the 1932 crop by the Soviet authorities.
A second major factor contributing to the holodomor was wide-spread opposition to the policies of collectivization (Wikiling to Kulaks), which often included the deliberate slaughter of life-stock and draught animals by peasants.
In addition, the government seemed unconcerned with the effects of the famine on the rural population, as for example at the height of the famine, the USSR exported 1.70 million tons of grain in 1932 and 1.84 million tons in 1933 ([9]). The Soviet authorities also barred people from traveling to areas where food was more available.
At the time, the Soviet government attempted to keep the holodomor secret from the rest of the world. Only in the late 1980s did the Soviet Government admit that to the famine's existance but to this day the pertinent archives of the NKVD (later KGB, and today FSB) are still inaccessible to historians.
The Holodomor remains a poltically charged topic, particularly in many countries of the former Soviet Union.
The governments and parliaments of Ukraine, Argentina, Australia, Canada, Estonia, Hungary, Lithuania, the United States, and the Vatican have officially recognized the Holodomor as an act of genocide. In Ukraine, the last Saturday of November is the official day of commemoration for victims of the Holodomor.
Dietwald 11:52, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
My edits are in bold, on the whole much more better, I am uploading this.Kuban kazak 12:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- Enough to say that the actual death toll will probably never be determined. NKVD archives can just be mentioned later, and there are also other reasons: e.g, incompleteness and unreliability of Soviet records.
- Volhynian crop yields: is there any literature examining its relationship to yields in Ukrainian SSR or Holodomor which we can quote, or is the presumed indication of the comparison original research? Isn't it sufficient to quote one of the authors who has done much more peer-reviewed work on the question of the Ukrainian crop?
- I have asked our Polish colleagues to point in the right direction, I can't promise when but I will try to look into this one. (I am not saying now but maybe later)Kuban kazak 16:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- "The holodomor was caused by a number of factors, including weather conditions"—I have a problem with this wording. There was apparently a smaller harvest in 1932, but not bad enough to cause anyone to starve. This may have set the stage, or been a factor, but I don't think it's right to say that it was a cause of the Holodomor.
- "A second major factor..." was not merely opposition to collectivization, but also many other factors based on the nature of collectivization itself, including the gap in productivity caused by converting farms, the inefficiencies of newly-established and sometimes incompetently-run kolhosps (a large percentage of the grain they actually harvested was lost), the farmlands lying idle when no one was able to work them, etc., etc.
- "...the government seemed unconcerned..." seems only part of the story understatement. They actively prevented people from having food through confiscation and deterrence.
Can everyone accept my assertions here? This was off the top of my head, but I believe I can find citations in my history books to support every one of these points. —Michael Z. 2005-11-27 16:27 Z
I'm sorry, but I prefer the earlier version before the last changes of Dietwald and Kuban kazak. Can you please explain your edits and not ignore my questions but try to answer them ? Until then I suggest we revert to the version of 10:19, 27 November 2005 and rework your edits slowly, step by step. --Wojsyl (talk) 16:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- The original edit has its flaws and I feel that there is no need to return to it. Modify this one, one step at a time. Kuban kazak 16:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
OK :-). First I'd remove the part mentioning poor weather condition as a factor. I've tried to find information on poor harvest in Volhynia in these years, but did not find anything to confirm it. I'm going to remove it until we have some respectable sources to support it. Until then it's a mere speculation. --Wojsyl (talk) 17:01, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- We don't need weather conditions, but there must some statistics on harvest yield, anyway until that arrives it is certainly alright to leave it out. Cosidering there that I have no concrete proof to that as well. Kuban kazak 17:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm also going to remove "...the government seemed unconcerned..." as it would imply that it was not a planned action but merely lack of concern. --Wojsyl (talk) 17:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- Well this is hard to disprove, was the famine deliberate or accidental and again until the real archives would not be available we can only make assumptions, It will be intersting to find this out in 2032/2033.
- While it may not be that Stalin or his lieutenants pre-planned a famine aimed at Ukrainians, I don't think we can deny that Soviet officials confiscated food from people who died as a direct result. It wasn't a simple lack of concern, it was an active role, overseen at a high level (e.g., Stalin's appointee Postyshev), with predictable deadly effect. —Michael Z. 2005-11-27 20:06 Z
More Evidence on Ukrainian Famine in Kuban
While the intro has been reverted by User:Kuban kazak, I will continue bringing here more real testimonies gathered by the US Government Commission. First some from the Kuban region.
- http://www.maidan.org.ua/holodomor/tom-II_html/SW19.html
- "In 1934 Russian settlers from Tambov and Voronezh came to area, and narrator learned that bread had been scarce, but available in those regions. Narrator states there was no famine in Russia, i.e., does not consider the North Caucasus part of Russia."
- "I know, one Russian, Andrey Makeyev went with his son to some field to gather some roots. They caught him, arrested, in prison they found out that he was a Russian and let him go home. Gave him some bread and let him go. ...Let him go home, then sent his son to engineer courses."
- This is just one witness, but worth reading to get a better idea of what was going on in Kuban at that time. It seems no wonder that User:Kuban kazak's grandfather didn't remember much famine. According to the testimony, there were big distinctions in treating Ukrainians and Russians in Kuban.
--Andrew Alexander 21:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
John Kolis- Very Ukrainian/Russian sounding name... Intersting I have never came across any Johns in Ukraine or Russia or indeed some of his speach:
- де boat-и стають, морські пароплави, Чорне Море. То 90 кілометрів від порту вони тримали кордон. Вlack армію тримали.
- Нова Економічна, то так називали ми. То при НЕПові було all right.Люди жили hарру, веселые, при НЕПОВІ. .
- А до 27-го року було життя all right. Що я пам'ятаю, жили happy, в кожну неділя, як осінь, кожну неділю люди п'ють, гуляють, веселяться, співають на вулиці. А молодь, special молодь, like me, soon they finish job – run down the street. Happy! But the... Так як ножем відрізали все.
- Well, я то тим не займався
But the most fundamental flaw in the article comes here: Від.: Я вам скажу: у моєму селі не було козаків. Бо то село, то є селяни. А козаки жили по станицях. У нас не було козаків.
Пит.: А як Ви жили з ними?
Від.: All right, all right. їздили люди один до другого, то не було ніякої різниці. Лише козак до революції, до революції козак мав 10,11 гектарів землі, а одного козака, не на родину, а на козака, 11 десятин землі мав. І він, як би сказати, він мусив бути завжди готовий як військовий. Він вдома, але кожну хвилину, що як тривога - він на коні. Він має, мусить мати свого коня, сідло, шаблю. Він завжди мусить бути готовий. Ото називався козак. Але то турецьке ім'я - козак. Турки назвали, по-турецькому "козак” а як перевести на українську мову - "розбійник."
Пит.: Ви сказали, що була школа в Вашому селі, так?
Від.: Ні, російська. Писалося все по-російському. Вчитель так казав, що як говориш "хліб," то пиши "хлеб." То ти говориш по-ураїнському, він не каже, що по-українському, але ти говориш оте "кінь," а пишеться "конь." Говориш ти "повозка," що кінь тягне, а пишеться "воз."
Proves that a) grammar was never taught in Ukrainian and b) this man is not even a Cossack.
Please don't give sources of people who can't even be consistent in the language they speak much less remeber anything. How does he know English- obviously they interviewed an emmigrant from the Kuban. Did they bother to go there? No. Did they bother interviewing many of our old people, who actually stayed and lived here? NO. You call this evidence? Would you like me to conduct an interview with some old people from our stanitsa and publish the results here? If that's what you call a source then I am dissapointed with you... --Kuban kazak 22:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- Ivan Koliš sounds Ukrainian to me. It does sound like an oral interview with an elderly emigrant—so what? I'm sure the nice Cossack veterans you cited might not be speaking scholarly Moscow dialect in a transcript either. I haven't looked at the report; do you how many interviews they conducted? How many were published? I suspect that foreign commissions about the man-made famine were not exactly invited to the USSR in the 1980s. I don't think that a) school-book literacy is a criterion indicating the veracity of Soviet peasants from the 1930s; in fact I would guess the point was to relate the man's word-for-word account, rather than cleaning it up and being accused of adding interpretation to his words, and b) why does it matter that he's not a Cossack? You haven't pointed out any real faults of the commission report. —Michael Z. 2005-11-27 22:39 Z
- Well I am even more impressed, they did not visit the actual territory of the former USSR in the 1980s but based everything on emmigrants, this is even better. I mean if you want to know about the eastern front of World War II you ask former Vlasovites or members of the SS Galicia or whatever. I mean there are people who claim to have seen UFOs...
- Like I said we speak Balachka, but we don't put english words into our paragraphs. If he is not a Cossack then unless you suggest that Ukrainians ie Malorossians ie non-Cossacks migrated to the Kuban separately from Zaporozhians then it is contradictory to the statement that some people here are insisting upon:
- a) Kuban Cossacks came from Zaporozhia (I agree, got manuscripts to prove it) b)The Zaporozhians were Ukrainians (geographically yes, ethnically the term did not exist then and they were not only Malorossian blood in the Sech, runaway peasents from all over Poland-Lithuania came down, there must have been as much Belarussians as there were Malorussians) c)Thus Kuban Cossacks are descendents of Zaporozhia (yes, partly, if you neglect the amount of war brides and interhost marriages that accumulated over two centuries) d)Thus Zaporozhians are Ukrainians (no, because Kuban was never called 'the Ukraine' and ethnically points b and c also counteract this).
- Now what does this man tell us? a)He is not a Cossack (hence not a descendent of Zaporozhians) b) he was born on the Kuban (maybe) c)He considers himself to be Ukrainian (well you have me lost here?).
- Thus unless there is evidence that actual Malorossians, (not Zaporozhians), came to the Kuban (in the numbers that I am having thrown at me) then this waste of discussion space is justified (although I would like to see some concrete evidence, not singular emmigrant accounts.)Kuban kazak 00:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- I would like people to respond to the above. --Kuban kazak 01:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- It's hard to respond, because I am confused. You seem to be trying to prove that this particular interviewee's statements are suspect, or that a Ukrainian's opinion isn't important, or possibly even that he's not Ukrainian. I thought your aim was to show that the US commission's report is not a reliable source, but now I'm not sure. I haven't read the report, and I have no idea whether you're implying that it's entirely based on this one person, or only people just like him, or just picking at points to discredit the report. You are also saying something about Ukrainian education, the Zaporozhian ancestry of Kuban Cossacks, and SS Galicia, and the Gulf of Tonkin whose relevance I don't quite understand.
- Previous US governments slip-ups the latter was orchestrated as a prelude for war, and you say we have to be cautious about Soviet Government, what makes one think US government is better? -- Kuban kazak 09:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- We are not qualified to conduct a peer review of the report. If you have sources that discredit it, let's see them.
- 2002 cenusus, 1926 census, The genetic Study of Russian gene pool. Three concrete evidences, which contradict first hand accounts that are based on emmigrants (Will you take the word of former SS galicia or Vlasovites as absoloute truth?) --Kuban kazak 09:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Similarly, I don't understand where you're going with the whole demographics of Kuban issue. Many sources we've quoted say refer to Kuban as having a Ukrainian population, and I'm not sure we've seen any that actually contradict this. I understand that your personal experience is different, but we can't use that for this encyclopedia article. The census document you've quoted sounds very interesting, but you seem to be making inferences from it which, again, I don't think we're qualified to do. Because it's a primary source commissioned by the Soviet government, we should be even more cautious in using it. I have read other respectable sources which refer to the unreliability of Soviet census figures, so I don't think we should quote it without corroborating academic support or interpretation.
- see commnets above (and below)
- Well to be fair the argument over a petty quote has been going on for much too long, and certainly if anything belongs in the Kuban Cossacks page. --Kuban kazak 09:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Guys, please don't waste your time on original research. mikka (t) 22:57, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- Except for User:Kuban kazak no one is conducting original research here. Please read, "the only way to verify that you are not doing original research is to cite sources who discuss material that is directly related to the article, and to stick closely to what the sources say." User:Kuban kazak isn't citing anything here, he speculates and comes with his "evidence" from own granfather and wife. For him the way to prove that a person doesn't speak Ukrainian despite two pages of interview in Ukrainian, is to cite him remembering a Russian school with everyone speaking Ukrainian in it.--Andrew Alexander 01:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- And what about the 1926 appendix, 2002 census and the gene pool. Finally Balachka is not Ukrainian. This interveiw is rediculous though a man who can't even remember how to consistentely speak a language yet alone remember details of his school life. I am anything but convinced. What does my family have anything to do with this sorry excuse for a source? Kuban kazak 01:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- I don't know. In fact I don't know even why you keep reverting the article based own referenced "balachka".--Andrew Alexander 01:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Well...you got me. Let me tell you once and for all the dialect that we speak is SIMILAR to Ukrainian and Russian identically. It can be spoken in Moscow or Rovno with only a few changes in common volcabulary (eg Flag/Prapor, Dvorets/Palats, Chervonyi/Krasnyi by default the italic examples are preffered) it has no grammar (Literary Russian is taught and used everywhere, the only difference now is that teachers in schools teach in balachka, some stanitsas use the pre-1918 Grammar). Finally in cities: Kranodar, Sochi, Novorossiysk typical southern Russian accent is spoken (the same that you'll hear from Volgograd to Odessa). IF YOU ARE NOT CONVINCED THEN VISIT THE KRASNODAR KRAI AND FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF! Сколько можно уже одно и тоже повторять вать машу?--Kuban kazak 01:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- I don't know. In fact I don't know even why you keep reverting the article based own referenced "balachka".--Andrew Alexander 01:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- And what about the 1926 appendix, 2002 census and the gene pool. Finally Balachka is not Ukrainian. This interveiw is rediculous though a man who can't even remember how to consistentely speak a language yet alone remember details of his school life. I am anything but convinced. What does my family have anything to do with this sorry excuse for a source? Kuban kazak 01:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Here is another quote from the same source.
- "Q.: So how did you live with them (Cossacks)?
- A.: All right, all right. Visited each other, there was no difference at all among us. Only a Cossack before revolution had 10 or 11 acres of land..."
I am not sure if "no difference at all" means that Cossacks were also Ukrainian. But he confirms this when saying this next:
- "Russians say that Kuban is a Russian land. But they were Ukrainian, such, as they say, Cossacks, chased away Turks and settled there..."
Perhaps Kuban kazak could find his own sources to disprove this testimony. The 1926 census report seems to be corroborating Kolis:
- "During the actual collection of the census data nearly all could understand Podolian and even Volynian dialects. Reading Ukrainian was a different issue due to the letter И being read differently in Russian and Ukrainian"
This is precisely what Kolis is saying when describing his Kuban school:
- "Everything was written in Russian"
- And what does the census say? Unfamiliar words were read with the И pronounced in Russian, familiar words were sometimes read with И in Ukrainian and sometimes in Russian. Sometimes you had members of the same family reading differentely because they obviously have never seen Ukrainian text, even the old generations.
Here some more information from the Kolis testimony:
- "Q.: So how did it happen when they took away food?
- A.: The authorities ("komsod") went from house to house, searching for food. No one could hide anything. Someone tried, if there was a thick wall, tried hiding some grain in the wall. They found it there as well. They used some sort of pokes for that... Found it in gardens as well where people had hidden grain. Wherever there is a freshly dug ground, they used the same pokes. (In Russian) "Wait on arrest", sent people into jail for this...
- Q: So how often did they come?
- A: Came every day, checked what you've been eating, how come you didn't die yet... My sister and I had a little lentil left by my father, hidden over in the attic... One day some man came, looked at me and said that it's a famine yet I am still up. In a few days they came and said "So you eat, still alive?"... They swept everything clean after I returned from work."
--Andrew Alexander 03:41, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Fair enough how about the fact that when in 1878, after the destruction of the Turks in the Balkans, over two Thousand Kuban Cossacks which participated in the campaign, upon their return via Novorossia, they paid a visit to their native homeland of Uman and Zaporozhia. Here is what an original manuscript written by the Eskadron Commander Ataman Viktor Parenko:
- Much has the land changed compared to what our forefathers would tell us, the open steppes have all been settled the people, poor malorossian peasents that once saw us as their last hope now lived a fulfiling life. Not like on the Kuban, where the Circassians would occasionally came down for a raid, this place awed me with its tranquility. Yet the people did not, frequent fussing and complaining about petty things I would have expected, such has been the case with our old ancestors. Yet what struck me the most was the way they refused to believe that we were the original kazaks, the kozaks which they saw leave their land only three generations ago. It was bitter trying to explain to them, that we are the original descendents, for they were certain that the Matka (that's how they called Matushka Empress Ekaterina) fully destroyed us or sent as bait for the Turks. I tried explaining that it was not destruction, it was an opportunity for those who wanted to live a full life of power and freedom (like we Cossacks always lived) then all was required to cross the mighty Don rivers and go and conquer new frontiers, I remember how my grandfather described when he first saw the mighty Caucasus mountains, when they first met the Terek Cossacks and mounted their first combined raid against Circassians). But he said not all came to continue our sacred way of life, some remained, stubborn Kozaks he would say that were lazy enough to avoid the horse journey east and south yet not lazy enough to raise their successors to endlessly complain about daily life and blame it on the extinction of the Kozaks. I tried to offer them to come and visit our land to see that nothing obstructs the will of the Cossacks in their old Russian glory. None chose to listen to me, for they were so convinced that it was an impossible task arguing with them...Perhaps it should be such that those who we thought were our people now see us as foreigners, in that case our home is the Kuban, not Ukraina. This account is published fully in a book by historian Valeriy Panfilov on the war of 1878. Most of it includes detail of orderly campaigns, this was just something extra that the author added.
- sigh
My revert: some other users polished the artilce over time, as I stated I liked the layout, better hack at this version than do reverts. Also I do not like the original research by Kuban Kazak, it is pretty much pointless until he publishes an article in press with his findings it can not be included. Source is source, but interpreting it is original research.–Gnomz007(?) 05:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- You want me to publish an article, I can do that, but then what will be the point if you, like the commission people will base everything upon emmigrants fairytales, and ignore the perspective on life from the Kuban. And please Kazak not Kozak.--Kuban kazak 09:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- I do not want anything -it is a prerequesite to have your interpretation included in the article and not removed as original research.–Gnomz007(?) 14:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- As I see currentely, under no way will Andrew Alexander amongst others will ever try to rethink his convictions. I mean Galileo was also despite having concrete proof unable to convince stubborn church people. Nevertheless the Vatican did eventually aknowladge its mistake, and I am a patient person... Anyway in the current state of the article I can compromise, if anyone wants to continue this dispute please Kuban Cossacks.--Kuban kazak 17:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
title
- I never knew that my fellow countrymen were such bickering little schoolgirls (not omitting international presence of course) In reference to your latest comment Kuban' Kaza4ok, the accents of Odessa and Volgograd vary greatly to someone brought up there. theres no need to get so worked up about it. Anyway i wanted to ask about the url for this page; it says holodomor, but uh holod means cold, not hunger. in translite it would be golodomor would it not? after all, in both ukranian and russian its written as Голодомор, indicating a hard Г, which sounds similar to the 'g' in good.
- Well I am sorry I never new that we had such countrymen as well, and who might you be? The president? Have you ever been in Rostov or Odessa? Have a listen to how people pronounce Gs there my little nurserygirl. Kuban kazak 09:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Plus, "Of direct relevance to the "holodomor" word is the cliche "morit' golodom", i.e., make someone to die by depriving them of food, i.e., "holodomor" is actually a correctly constructed noun for this verb phrase. Mikkalai 19:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)" that simply made me laugh since you can see mikkalai using a g instead of an h in his 'cliche' trancription. So? What about it? Could you please consider writing the term appropriately? ~~Dmitri Vakhrameev~~
- My guess is Romanization of Ukrainian, see scholarly romanization–Gnomz007(?) 03:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Mikkalai wrote in Russian: "morit' golodom". You may continue to laugh. Good for your health. mikka (t) 06:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Cold is холод (kholod); hunger is голод (uk: holod, ru: golod). —Michael Z. 2005-11-28 06:08 Z
Reverts with Deletions
The last revert -- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holodomor&diff=29456695&oldid=29456631 -- deleted a photo. While people may continue reverting for irrational reasons, try to preserve whatever was gained new prior to going back to a previous version. Moreover, please provide references BEFORE putting some new statements in. There is no excuse for deleting other people external sources. I already tried to ask everyone for at many days to improve upon the US Government Commission quote. It was again rudely deleted with no explanations.--Andrew Alexander 06:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- There is no reason to put US opinion into intro. This is wikipedia's article, not Uncle Sam's. Your photo contributes nothing to the topic. Happy people existed always and everywhere. The place of external sources is in "external links" section. US quote is present in the text below. mikka (t) 06:40, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Here is another revert: "no inline ext links and qoutes in intro. Intro is summary of *our* article, not f USGov". Perhaps, this point is not clear, but the articles isn't exactly "ours". It can't have any original research as underlined many times here. Yet people want to erase external links and quotes? But for what reason? To make this already very heated debate even more so? Erasing external references is an act of vandalism in this case. It serves no purpose but to make the topic controversial. Hope people with cool minds could reconsider. If anything, MORE external links and quotes of reputable sources are needed, not less!!!--Andrew Alexander 06:43, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- It serves the layout, there is nothing you have to prove inline in intro, you can add references below, what you are doing is taking the article text and pulling it up several paragraphs, it ends up in a messed up article. There is nothing irrational in that. –Gnomz007(?) 06:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Please explain in the article the purpose of the pic of happy kolkhoznik woman. So far it sits irrelevant to any text. mikka (t) 07:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Mikka, I wish you would positively contribute to the article, instead of disrupting it, removing refs, or other contents. --Wojsyl (talk) 07:35, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Totally agree. I can't understand the urge for removing the references. We already have huge arguments almost for every word in that intro. The only way to "calm" some people down was to provide direct references for them to read it instead of instantly reverting everything. Now we're back in the same situation. People can't find references supporting their version, so they delete other references. How long will this continue?--Andrew Alexander 16:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
And yet another revert:
- Holodomor; 16:54 . . Mikkalai (Talk) (rm refs from intro. Intro is text summary. A reference for the intro is the article text itself.)
The problem is, I can't even get to working on the text references because the intro is getting reverted all the time by the people inserting their own text with no supporting sources. Is that an official style guideline of Wikipedia to delete all the ext. references from intros? Why is it necessary to do this? <unsigned>
Intro
I am repeating once more:
- It is against wikipedia rules to put external links into text body. There is a special section for them, known as "external links".
- Please provide a reference for this rule. Thanks.--Andrew Alexander 17:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- An intro is the summary of the article, and its only reference is article body. If you put external references into intro, this means that the article sucks and you have to expand it to justify what you wrote in the intro.
- This is exactly the case. And unless you let other people work instead of deleting what they found to use in the article, it's very hard to continue. I feel that the argument is not with the references, but with the content itself.--Andrew Alexander 17:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
These are matters of wikipedia style and please no accusations here. I contributed to wikipedia about Soviet poltical repressions more than all of the rest of wikipedia. mikka (t) 17:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Now, please contribute to this instead of deleting other people work.--Andrew Alexander 17:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Please do. Mikka, nobody's denying that you contributed to wikipedia a lot and I'm sure we all appreciate it. But what you're doing now is counter-productive. If you feel the body of the article can be expanded please do, instead of crippling it. If you think the reference is placed incorrectly, move it to its right place instead of deleting it. Try to contribute positively. There's enough mess in the article already without your recent reverts, which I'm sorry to say are destructive. --Wojsyl (talk) 17:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Will you please review what I am deleting instead of listening to the annoyed rant of a man whose single purpose is to drive a certain political agenda so that who is completely deaf to what other people say? It was explained to him twice at the talk page that he is putting into the intro an extensive quotation which is already present in the body of the text. So there is no "crippling" here. mikka (t) 18:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- I am not against you fighting my "political agenda". But fight it with references and quotes. Not with deletions of my references. --Andrew Alexander 21:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to add these references for Wikipedia's style guidelines: Wikipedia:External_links and Wikipedia:Lead_section. Nowhere does it say that intros are forbidden to have external links.--Andrew Alexander 18:11, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Please read the style guedilines you quote carefully, the section with a very noticeable header "How to link". mikka (t) 18:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- Would you please read it yourself? Here, I will quote it for you: "There are two basic formats for external links..." and then "The second format is for sentences or paragraphs that require specific references. This form of link can be placed in the body of an article at the end of the relevant sentence or paragraph."--Andrew Alexander 18:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- OK I stand corrected. It was titled "Citations" and I didn't read to this place. Also, this is a recent addition. Half a year ago there was a strong drive agaist spreading links all over the text. The main problem with external links is that they die without warning. And the experience on clicking a link only to find it it dead is quite annoying.
- Anyway, please notice that this refers to a specific case: to indicate the source of a quotation, not to confirm every second word of the article. mikka (t) 18:40, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- No, you're wrong again. It says, "However, because links often die without warning, use of more complete citations are recommended." That's all it says. It doesn't say that you have to use external links for quotations only. You can use it for related words, expressions, or ideas.--Andrew Alexander 21:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- "Recommended" what? "more complete citations", not "more external links". External links are hightmare to maintain: you have no control neither over its current content nor over their life at all. You live only today; you want to prove your point today and it does not bother you that tomorrow all your links go dead and first best your enemy wil say that you misquoted or forged them, and you will have no proof. Why is it so difficult to undertsand? mikka (t) 00:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
- No, you're wrong again. It says, "However, because links often die without warning, use of more complete citations are recommended." That's all it says. It doesn't say that you have to use external links for quotations only. You can use it for related words, expressions, or ideas.--Andrew Alexander 21:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
External links should be at the end of the article. But there are different acceptable styles for references, and one is to link the citation in the text; which sure may be useful in this article about a controversial topic. In the cases where it's possible, it would be better to have a numeric reference link to the references section, where there is a full citation possibly linking to an external web site. Listing a reference at the bottom is better than just having an unqualified link to an external source.
The ideal situation stylistically would be to have all details and references in the main body, with the introduction being a summary of the text. Of course this is difficult to achieve with an article which is somewhat controversial, and actively edited.
But the big picture is gradually settling down into a pattern here; there's light at the end of the tunnel. I suggest we work towards removing citations from the intro and having all or most references listed. —Michael Z. 2005-11-29 01:09 Z
"This is a summary of our article"
And this is exactly what I tried to avoid by putting actual references in the intro -- silly revert wars. The article hasn't even been started being cleaned up from the mess of personal opinions and unproven statements. To "rely" on that article, especially with a few editors tending to change its text right under your feet without a single reference, it extremely hard. I was trying to "peg" more or less each "controversial" (or claimed to be) statement with references. This way we can rely on something stable instead of being jerked around by reverts and deletions. Why is it so hard to get something that should be natural in any encyclopedia writing -- stable and gradual improvement of the relied upon sources? Is that because people simply don't want any reasonable and agreeable text here?--Andrew Alexander 22:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- To be fair quotes do not belong in lead paragraphs, especially third party quotes, although I agree that the edit wars are rediculously silly, I still think that its better to have a neutral third person opinion rather than direct number-links "polluting" the article. It may not be the rules, but no sensible encyclopedias do that, put third-party quotes into historical articles. I mean at the end of the day it has to sound professional as well. Check the Ukrainian version. Well done to those people. They have managed to sort out all their problems and avoid direct references in the lead. -- Kuban kazak 23:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
To add to this. I am truly puzzled at how to approach writing this article. If I build it up gradually, with references, then Mikkalai would revert it because it's "their" article and references are "not allowed" in the text. If I write it off-line and then upload it, then it will also get immediately reverted because it's "theirs" and can't be changed at once. There are no reasonable responses to a bunch of source provided on the discussion page. At this time I am ready to launch a complaint because any good faith attempt to contribute to this article's objectivity have been blocked for some personal reasons.--Andrew Alexander 23:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- What's wrong with you, man? Your U.S. commission citation is in full in the text! I am pointing this to you here for the third time! Cool down. Also it is "our" including "you"; sorry, English language does not have this exact pronoun. "Our" meaning "wikipedia's", not Ukr Gov nor US Gov nor Encyclopedia Britannica. mikka (t) 00:41, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
- Hey I have as of the way things stand currentely have no objections to constructive, informative additions. I would like the named users to explain their actions as well. Kuban kazak 23:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Third Party quote in the Title?
I am still not convinced that there is a need for a third party quote in the title, for the following reasons:
- Quote is a US gov Commission
- US gov Commissions made mistakes in past
- This commission, from what I gather, never went to FSU (please correct me if I am wrong)
- It should not be treated as the absoloute truth, which damages the NPOV position of the article
- Although no rule states that third party quotes cannot be given, it is not common in respectible encyclopedias
- Such as Britannica, Encarta etc.
- The quote is repeated further down in the text
- Encyclopedias definetely avoid having that.
- The Ukrainian version of the article, which now has a featured status avoids having such quotes.
Maybe its just me, but I think that there is a lack of professionality in structure of the article. -- Kuban kazak 00:53, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that such a quote belongs in the body of the article, and the intro would be better as a summary.