Talk:Intelligent design

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Reminder

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A little reminder to use edit summaries. KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Support among scientists

Latest comment: 19 years ago20 comments14 people in discussion

Continued - moved from archive (post archival edit):

Well, since no one is willing to say that I should leave, let's address this issue. We should start by pinpointing the information. How many of that 120,000 were scientists, or, more properly, professionals and doctors. Or, perhaps, can another, more concrete source be found? This should be easy to do. The fact is that a majority of the scientific community do not credit ID as being science. What we need to find is a study supporting the fact by polling scientists on those grounds. --Optimus 19:23, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Not to hijack your point, Optimus, but does anyone know if there is a wikipedia page devoted to this? There's often great confusion over the meaning and nature of 'support' for and against Intelligent Design. I think the only way we will resolve it in the long term is by constructing a (fairly lengthy) section devoted to it on this page, or a sub-page, which can then be linked to at the start of the article. If we could focus on collating the sources on this matter (I can think of a dozen off the top of my head) we could get a solid article on the subject without cluttering the ID page and also resolving the 'vast/overwhelming' dispute.

One point I will make is that your query on how many of the 120k were doctors/professionals is very important, as it applies to ID as well. Unfortunately, many of the Discovery Institute's statements classify anyone with a phd as a scientist, and often marketers and theologians find their way onto the list. As such, I feel only a full page on the matter can extricate the true figures, determining who is a scientist and who merely has a phd in an unrelated area. --Davril2020 19:47, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

It's not as if phrases like "majority of the scientific community " are any more specific, it's a throw away, a buzzword, how do I or for that matter, potential wiki users, know what this "scientific community" is made of? What does one have to do to be a member of this "community"?--Petral 19:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

See scientific community --JPotter 19:53, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Which is linked in the article, btw. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

A problem with the usage of the term scientific community as defined here is that the linked definition draws a line between those scientists who classify something as pseudoscience and those who don't - thus automatically excluding any pro-ID scientists. I.e. 100% of the scientific community, by definition, regard ID as pseudoscience ant 21:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Which neatly mirrors reality... FeloniousMonk 21:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ok, to be in compliance with WP:NPOV we need to meet three key criteria:

A statement of fact about a majority opinion (check)
A link backing this as a fact (check)
A statement of fact about the minority opinion (check)

Can anyone please tell this editor(me) what the Real Problem is here? Are we still arguing semantics about an adjective? If so, "A clear majority..." and have done with it. I'm sure we can find a better link. Maybe we can give more than the one; even include an DI link if absolutely needed for balence. But if there isn't a larger problem, let's move on.

I understand that it's the DI's intent to show that a Cabal of sorts exists to keep out their ideas. Frankly, they're right. And that's the way it should be. The rules of the game were setup by Sir Francis Bacon. And until ID conforms with those rules, it's pseudoscience. Period. Darwin, Einstein and millions of others had to overcome the same hurdles. Why shouldn't Behe & company?--ghost 22:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Because they're special? Actually, you're right -- enough bytes have been spent on this topic already, it really is time to move on. Jim62sch 23:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Heh. My personal observation is that ID people are impatient and does really very lousy scientific work. Not only that - they really think this ID theory of theirs is on the same footing as Evolution? Sometimes, I really think ID-ers haven't a clue on just how important and significant evolution is. Sure, if we're talking about creatures that age very slowly, it's something that's not really important. However, God also created creatures which age very quickly - viruses, microbes, bacteria, etc. These mini-beasties are using Evolution against us. Our doctors and scientists on the front-line have to understand Evolution in order to fight and control these mini-beasties.

I thank God for Darwin. His work was really a revolution.

Apologies. I think I want out of topic there. I just wanted to show another reason why the scientific community likes Evolution and not upstart ID wanting to take Evo's place. Evolution, very very useful. Helps save lives. ID, very big waste of time and money. Gives me stomach ache. Judge Jones agrees with the big waste of time and money part, by the way.

Oh yeah. I also think that ID proponents like to be in the center of attention.Lovecoconuts 03:29, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I think it would be good to review the Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines

Talk pages are not for general chatter; please keep discussions on talk pages on the topic of how to improve the associated article.

Talk pages are also not strictly a forum to argue different points of view about controversial issues. They are a forum to discuss how different points of view should be included in the article so that the end result is neutral. Partisan debates do not align with the mission of Wikipedia, and get in the way of the job of writing an encyclopedia.

--Ben 05:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Actually you should review this Behavior_that_is_unacceptable_on_Wikipedia. If you change, tweak and/or strike out other users comments; you will be blocked. Is that clear Benapgar? - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 05:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

It is now. I will not strike out other user's comments, which is what I did. I will let them strike them out or even remove the comments themselves if they feel it is necessary. I hope they will review the guidelines and do this themselves.--Ben 06:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Why would they need to review it; when they did nothing... or perhaps I should say very little wrong. It's clear your grasp of policy is a little skewed and spotty to say the least. I fail to understand how Guettarda's opinion breaches Wikipedia:Etiquette. (which is logically valid btw, since its understood scientists generally don't like refuting, what they themselves consider pseudoscience) But of course its validity is not at issue. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 06:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I read what you have to say. I believe Guettarda was being condescending towards ID supporters when he said scientists "are forced to deal with ID," which to me suggests that ID proponents are causing scientists grief. While I'm sure some scientists feel they are "forced" to "deal with" ID, it is an unnecessary and impolite comment which Guettarda should have kept to himself, as it stereotypes ID proponents as brash and ignorant. I do not wish to, nor will I, respond any further. --Ben 06:37, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Guettarda, like all of us has a point of view. This is allowed, as is sharing it. It never got personal, it didn't get into the article.--Tznkai 07:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I've spoken to several scientists and at least one philosopher of science that are frustrated by having to deal with ID proponents, and the judge in the Dover decision was frustrated by them as well. I'm sorry that makes you feel persecuted, but it's a very widely held feeling. If you want to show people that ID proponents aren't "brash and ignorant," demonstrating knowledge, tractability, open-mindedness, and collaboration might be a better strategy than striking out comments or getting offended. When you're dealing with prejudices, you have to be careful so that in attacking the prejudice, you don't inadvertently confirm it in your opponents' minds. Dave (talk) 08:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

A BIG DITTO to Dave's post above. I've only known about ID about a month or so (maybe 2 months), and in that time - I have come to understand why a LOT of people are frustrated with ID and its proponents I may have patience for their ignorance but their arrogance is incredibly hard to take. You have to be a saint not to lose their temper with them.Lovecoconuts 09:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Lovecoconuts, you're not helping. Dave (talk) 09:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, Dave. I have no reasonable excuse for my outbursts except for having to keep a lot of frustration bottled up. Will just make use of a punching bag next time.Lovecoconuts 10:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Motion to add to the talk page intro

Latest comment: 19 years ago12 comments7 people in discussion

NPOV: Morally offensive views should be added to the list of NPOV rules that apply to this article because the description of morally offensive views could be applied to either side of the ID topic. --Optimus 20:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Covered under NPOV. While I applaud your efforts to make this talk page more civil, if we were to cite all WP policies which apply to entries made here, the talk page would be overlength before a single post was made (its getting close as it is.) KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The wording is "The sections of WP:NPOV that apply directly" so since my suggestion is indirectly applicative, I concede that it should not be added. (I never thought there would be a time when I needed to be more picky, but here it is!) Motion withdrawn. --Optimus 21:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ah, excellent point! I'll add. KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

(trying not to be hasty here) Question: did you mean apply to the article, or to the talk page? Perhaps we need a bit more consensus here - you're the first person to bring that up, but we've had hundreds of instances of the other specifics. KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:19, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'm unclear about why you think that ID should be seen as "morally offensive". Care to elaborate? Guettarda 01:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

If it's about making "you must be an atheist" insinuations, I'm in favor of it.

I've always been a believer in God, a Christian, specifically Catholic. Born and raised. I respect atheists and other religious denominations, but I have very little tolerance for "you must be a atheist" insinuations.Lovecoconuts 04:05, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Not sure if you're refering to any specific incident, but univited judgements on the strengths of one's faith are considered violations of WP:NPA and WP:Civility and as an aside, flies in the face of WP:DICK as well.--Tznkai 07:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The incident happened just yesterday. KC did some archiving and included that incident (I am very glad). Unfortunately, I learned just yesterday to use the "compare" feature to see new posts. Bad timing. Lovecoconuts 10:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The good news is that the Users involved in the incident seem to have moved beyond this. This is a normal part of the growth process for most editors. And we more experienced editors need to remind ourselves to assume good faith. I believe we can move forward.--ghost 20:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

(nods) Ok. That will be my mantra from now on - assume good faith, assume good faith, assume good faith.Lovecoconuts 01:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Mantras only work if you face east and are sitting on a carpet that has your atman and karma endowed upon it. Jim62sch 00:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

"Neocreationist" social, not scientific, observation

Latest comment: 19 years ago24 comments9 people in discussion

The introduction says "the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as neocreationist pseudoscience or junk science." Characterizing "intelligent design" as "neocreationist" is an observation which is out of context and should not be attributed to the "scientific community." I propose that this characterization be be attributed and moved into a sentence on its own. --Ben 02:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

No, is accurate. We can add sources if deemed necessary:

"Design Yes, Intelligent No: A Critique of Intelligent Design Theory and Neocreationism," by Massimo Pigliucci, Skeptical Inquirer (Sep/Oct 2001): 34-39 [1] Dembski wrote an answer to that one
"Intelligent Design Is Creationism in a Cheap Tuxedo", by Adrian L. Melott, Physics Today, May 2002
"Is Intelligent Design Testable? A Response to Eugenie Scott" by William A. Dembski [2] "Eugenie Scott is a physical anthropologist... arguments against intelligent design (which she refers to as "neocreationism")"
"Intelligent design: Constant Tampering by the Designer?" by Joe Meert[3] "The last point I wish to make is that neocreationism (in the form of ID) is simply a clumsy new device try and reintroduce religion into the public science classroom. "

KillerChihuahua^?!? 02:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

He's right. Determining creationism is the job for historians and political scientists, not phsyical scientists (the two may overlap). Its not a big deal, but its technically inaccurate--Tznkai 02:37, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

What I'm getting at is that it is outside the field of science to characterize like this. It does not matter what kind of pseudoscience it is; it's out of context here. Add it in after the sentence if you want, it should still mean the same thing. Though I think, in this arrangement, it reveals that it is a bit silly for to attribute this to the scientific community: "The scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience or junk science. Scientists also view intelligent design as a neocreationist concept."--Ben 03:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

actually, Id go with "The scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience or junk science. Also, in a recent court case, ID was shown to be a development of earlier creationist ideas." or something similar. No reason to make scientists the source of all decisions--Tznkai 03:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The major people who deal with (are forced to deal with) ID are scientists and philosophers of science. Most people who have expressed opinions on ID and sought to deconstruct it as neocreationist pseudoscience have been scientists, philosophers of science, and scientific societies. Who "should" do this is irrelevant to us - who has done it is relevant. Guettarda 03:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the point is/was being missed: whether or not one feels that the scientific community (a term that requires no parsing) should or should not classify ID as neocreationist is irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that they do so, is what needs to be captured. The purpose of any reference source is to provide the facts as they are, and that is precisely what the opening line as quoted above does. In fact, one could note that the IDists have no right to declare their "theory" as being superior to evolution as one could argue that they seem to not have the requisite knowledge to make such a statement, one that is, by-the-by, self-serving. Thus, Guettarda is correct. Jim62sch 12:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Noone is saying that a majority of scientists don't think that. I think the sentence confuses "notable source" with "authoritative source." Scientists in general are an authoritative source on science and the methods of science, and can be referenced as an authoritative source on pseudoscience. Not all scientists are an authoritative source when it comes to specifying a certain "type" of pseudoscience--"neocreationist pseudoscience"--based on its proponents, or characterizing the proponents of said pseudoscience as neocreationists. Those would be only sociologists and other social science people. That's why I was saying that it is out of context. It confuses scientists as an authoritative source and scientists as a notable source. What do you think of splitting the sentence up? This seems to me to be a very reasonable suggestion as it would help with context by separating them, yet still say the exact same thing, so I don't see there would be any problem with it. Personally, as I said I think it looks a little silly to say the majority of scientists say that it is a "neocreationist concept," but that's what being said anyway; it's just in a different order. I think, Tznkai, your suggestion is reasonable as well, though I wouldn't put it quite that way. If we can agree to at least separate them, then we can discuss your idea.--Ben 07:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

(I think adding in that scientists "are forced to deal with" ID is inappropriate Guettarda. I think you should review WP:EQ.)--Ben 05:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but Robert T. Pennock, a philosopher of science that testified at the Dover trial considers ID to be "neocreationist." His website refers to his "book about neocreationist attacks upon the evidential basis of evolutionary theory and of science."[4] That book has "New Creationism" in the title and is about ID according to the back cover, which you can view here. His other book is called "intelligent design creationism." Pennock is definitely authoritative. Dave (talk) 08:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I've added Pennock to the footnote. Presumably no one is going to ask that I find a sociologist that agrees as well? Dave (talk) 08:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

My point wasn't really about references though. I'm sure there are many references which describe ID as "neocreationist," I just think saying it is "neocreationist pseudoscience" and attributing both "ID is pseudoscience" and "the type of pseudoscience is neo-creationist" to the scientific community is mixing up the proper use of "the scientific community" as the (only, as far as I know) acceptable argument from authority on Wikipedia. I think it should be used when making a reference to the scientific community is to call something "pseudoscience", and that's it. Anything else should be quoted and sourced. I have some problems with simply saying "ID is a neocreationist concept" without getting a quote for it. This is as opposed to something like "The ID movement is a Neo-creationist movement" or maybe even "this is a concept developed by neo-creationists" which I would be more likely to accept, but one thing at a time. I think we should split the sentences up for starters, I don't see why anyone would object to that at least. --Ben 12:28, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Somewhere back in the archives was a long discussion on of Pandas and People (this discussion is also in Jones' ruling) that noted that creationist/neocreationist references were struck from the original edition and replaced with intelligent design. As this was a one-for-one swap, with no other wording being changed, the inference that A = B can logically be drawn and is, in fact, mathematically correct. Thus, the appellation "neocreationist pseudoscience" is applicable from that standpoint. And again, to echo Guettarda, whether or not one feels that the scientific community should have labeled it as such is irrelevant; what is relevant is the fact that they did. QED. Jim62sch 13:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

On the authoritativeness of Pennock: here [5] is a rather harsh review of his book, by an ID critic and a respected historian of (nominally creationist) geologists. Pennock misuses history rather badly, and I don't think he is the best source to be referencing. However, note that reviewer also considers ID neocreationist; I simply think Pennock is a rather politically biased and not completely trustworthy source.--ragesoss 09:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yeah. I think this issue doesn't require any more discussion. Dave (talk) 20:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Can you at least humour me and we can split it up into two sentences? If not, can you please explain why splitting it up into two sentences is a problem for you? --Ben 20:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I implemented Tznkai's suggestion. It seems to work well.--ghost 21:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

But I think the word "neocreationist" is better in a separate sentence (i.e. the example I gave). That's the main thing I am going for, it has to do with the writing, not the references. I am going to split it into two sentences and if anyone has a problem with it please say why it is no good in a separate sentence. --Ben 22:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Aside from adding yet another sentence to an already very long article, what does this bring to the party?

"An overwhelming majority[3] of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience or junk science.[4] Many in the scientific community refer to this type of pseudoscience as neocreationist pseudoscience and, in a recent court case, ID was found to be a development of earlier creationist ideas. "

In addition, the edit seems to be yet another reference to the "vast" discussion, which I thought that we had agreed, by consensus, to table. Saying "many", thus divorcing it from "overwhelming" is quite probably not accurate as every article I have read that was written by a scientist stated both points, often in juxtaposition. Sorry, but that edit is simply misrepresentative of reality, and it needs to be reverted. However, I will hold off a bit just in case someone can provide citations that show a substantive difference in the percentages, i.e., that the same scientists who view it as pseudoscience, do not view it as neocreationism. Jim62sch 22:42, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

You are free to edit it. I just don't think it is appropriate to say "neocreationist" there. I would like the line to say "the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as ~~neocreationist~~ pseudoscience or junk science." That's the only change I want. You can write something about the neocreationist aspects after it, I just think it is not the right place for it to be (as I have explained). I want it moved so it is separate. I don't want the meaning to change. Go ahead and edit it. --Ben 23:05, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

FM's revision works for me. Next subject please.--ghost 23:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

One down, hundreds to go. Jim62sch 01:30, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

There is a conjecture, Ben, that this is to draw attention to the concept of Neo-Creationism where the impulse by the majority scientific community is to simply call it pseudoscience. Endomion 22:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck odds are it is a duck. Jim62sch 14:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

Proponents definition of ID

Latest comment: 19 years ago53 comments11 people in discussion

The introduction says "Proponents say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life. [6]." However, in the citation, it is unclear whether the author is talking about intelligent design in the same way as this article portrays it. Indeed, the author uses the term generally, talking about "theories of intelligent design" (a characteristic type of theory) rather than "the theory of intelligent design" or "the concept of intelligent design" (ostensibly theories unto themselves). Could whoever added that in please explain? --Ben 02:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Sure. When scientists talk about ID, they use loose phrasing, because ID does not lend itself to accurate phrasing. There is no Theory of Intelligent Design, so they grab whatever handle they can to refer to the concept. KillerChihuahua^?!? 02:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Well, which handle have they really grabbed then? The teleological argument? Specified complexity? Irreducible complexity? All of the above? If it helps this is how I think of Intelligent design (from something I wrote before):

Intelligent design, generally speaking, is a reference to theories, and the collection of theories, which are attempts to prove the teleological argument. The argument is based on the philosophical perspective of teleology which supposes that there is purpose in nature—an organizing principle or design. Design is usually said to be the work of a deity. The argument is that this design can be observed objectively.

The three major arguments and theories which propose (and purport) to prove that nature was designed are the arguments of a fine-tuned universe, irreducible complexity, and—the latest theory—specified complexity. All theories attempt to provide evidence for the teleological argument. They are often regarded as fundamentally identical or extensions of one another.

And, more importantly, what exactly is the source for that sentence arguing? That the teleological argument can be a scientific theory? Because, if he is, that's what it should say. It would make it clear to the reader just what proponents are saying is scientific and sound a lot less like "here's proof that ID people are stupid" and more like "here's the idea that this is based on." There are not many scientists who would sign a petition saying "Teleology is pseudoscience" because it's an opinion and it's unprovable either way. This guy is just trying to prove that it can be a scientific theory, which doesn't seem as unreasonable as claiming "Proponents say intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life." which seems to be a lot of editorializing considering what I skimmed through in the article used as a source for this statement.--Ben 03:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Uh... You don't know about the Dover trial? ID people want ID theory of theirs in school (in science class) opposing theory of evolution.

Question. If ID theory not scientific theory, why ID people want it taught in science class?Lovecoconuts 03:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

See wedge document. Dave (talk) 03:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ah, ok. It took me a while to figure out what you were getting at Lovecoconuts (I think Dave's response should be a lesson to not just you but everyone that sarcasm is not the best way to get your point across). Yes I understand that many proponents claim it is a scientific theory, and that's what they are saying to get it taught in schools. That's pretty obvious, I know that. The thing is I think the reference provided here is very poor. It is an interesting reference to be sure, and from what I read it seems to argue that one can prove a teleological argument scientifically (though I found it quite convoluted and didn't read it all). So saying "Proponents say intelligent design is a scientific theory" is in line with the definition provide on Intelligent design. Good. However, expanding on that to say that Proponents say "ID stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life" is really stretching the point and creates a problem.

Now, proponents do say that, but that's not what the reference is even about. The reference provided is a philosophical argument intended (from what I gather) to prove that the teleological argument is actually a scientific theory. The problem here is that I don't think all proponents actually believe that. Proving, say, Dembski's specified complexity conjecture would actually prove the teleological argument. In that case, Dembski's conjecture would prove it is a scientific theory, rather than it being philosophically argued as being one. There are two ways to get there. In Dembski's case, it ends up being a theory on the origin of life (as a combination of both specified complexity and the teleological argument--and of course Dembski actually being able to measure something), but in the case of the reference, it does not because the reference is only about the teleological arugment. Just because someone is saying that the teleological argument can be studied scientifically doesn't mean that a) it is true, and b) it explains the origins of life. The teleological argument is not necessarily anti-evolution. It could be Theistic evolution for example--the "complexity" of the universe can be measured, and so the God exists and designed everything, including evolution.

So the sentence is problematic because on hand, it is correct and referenced, and the other it is correct but unreferenced, but on both hands it's incorrect or ambiguous. It's like "shifting goalposts"--and I don't mean that as a negative comment to the writer, I am saying I think it is a mistake and a reasonable mistake, but I think it needs to be corrected to help people understand ID better and so there will be less consternation regarding the article. I don't expect you to get what I'm saying right off, but give it a try and please ask questions. I admit I might be missing something, I'm trying to explain the way I see it and why I think it's a problem, not lecture anyone. This is hard stuff (stuff I think could be avoided by rewriting the whole shebang to everyone's satisfaction, but a lot of people get all up in arms when anyone even so much as mentions it). --Ben 08:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ben says "The reference provided [tries to] to prove that the teleological argument is actually a scientific theory. The problem here is that I don't think all proponents actually believe that." I can't think of a definition of ID that doesn't include the teleological argument, and I can't think of an ID proponent that doesn't think ID is scientific. I'm not sure I'm following the second half of what Ben wrote very well, but would the problem be solved if in addition to including a reference to Behe's book, Darwin's Black Box, which argues not only that ID is scientific but that it's better than evolution in that a) it's true and b) itexplains the origin of life? I'll add it and see if that works. Dave (talk) 08:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

All "definitions" of ID include the teleological argument (see my own definition if you want to know why I put it in quotes, but its mostly besides the point). When I said "The problem here is that I don't think all proponents actually believe that" what I mean is that I don't think all proponents approach the teleological argument in the same way. They wouldn't necessarily agree with Meyers' "proof" why the teleological argument is scientific. They might instead think that Dembski's theory is "proof" it is scientific. They are two different approaches. One, Demsbki's, is contrary to evolution, the other, Meyers', is not.

So having another reference is good and seems to make everything ok. But now there is another problem. Which approach is the definition given here on Wikipedia? Let's see: the "scientific theory of ID" would be "certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent." That's the teleological argument right there. So which approach are proponents likely going for when they say "ID is a scientific theory?" The Meyers or Dembski approach? Well, it also says "as opposed to an unguided process such as natural selection" so it can't be the Meyers approach, because Meyers' approach is not contrary to evolution. So in that way, the Meyers approach isn't just out in that case--it's not even going to be part of the article at all (in fact, it should be discussed on teleological argument). Dembski approach it is.

But now another problem arises. Intelligent design doesn't explain the Dembski approach. One of the confusing factors is that "as opposed to an unguided process such as natural selection" is a correlation of Dembski's theory and Dembski's approach, not his theory itself, which is his theory of specified complexity. So really, saying "ID is a scientific theory" is saying "Specified complexity is a scientific theory, and a correlation of that is that evolution is inaccurate. In addition, the teleological argument is therefore a scientific theory because Dembski's theory is also a scientific theory."

It is much more complicated than simply putting "Proponents say that intelligent design is a scientific theory" and adding "a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life" because the teleological argument by itself does not exclude evolution (as I said before theistic evolution works), and because "Intelligent design" is defined on Intelligent design as the teleological argument with a correlation of a separate theory (Dembski's, Behe's etc.)--which also correlate in favor of the teleological argument--tacked onto it.--Ben 11:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

So, among your many posts over the last two days, are you saying that the Discovery Institute misrepresents ID? Read the following:

1. What is the theory of intelligent design?

The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

2. Is intelligent design theory incompatible with evolution?

It depends on what one means by the word "evolution." If one simply means "change over time," or even that living things are related by common ancestry, then there is no inherent conflict between evolutionary theory and intelligent design theory. However, the dominant theory of evolution today is neo-Darwinism, which contends that evolution is driven by natural selection acting on random mutations, an unpredictable and purposeless process that "has no discernable direction or goal, including survival of a species." (NABT Statement on Teaching Evolution). It is this specific claim made by neo-Darwinism that intelligent design theory directly challenges.

see DI Jim62sch 13:30, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

With respect to point 1, I was saying that what DI is saying does not fit: "not an undirected process such as natural selection" is stated as a correlation of the first clause, not a theory unto itself. Can we agree on that? If so, then from what theory is it correlated? As I said before, theistic evolution is compatible with "certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent." Evolution being the feature. Their claim that this is opposed to evolution does not follow--unless there are unstated theories and correlations, which is what I was trying to outline above.

My guess why they would provide a poor or incomplete definition is that it works well as propaganda. It seems to say the teleological argument is contrary to natural selection, when it is not. This, I think, helps to convince people that theism in toto is contrary to evolution, so people who take a teleological approach to their theist beliefs will think it is necessary that their beliefs are contrary to evolution and "get on board" the ID movement.

With respect to point 2, "Is intelligent design theory incompatible with evolution?" it depends on what your definition of Intelligent design is before you even get to the definition of evolution. So keep your points in mind until the first question is sorted out. --Ben 22:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yes, Ben's made this claim before in his unsuccesful and disruptive attempt to create a POV fork claiming this is not the 'true' ID article, but merely the Discovery Institute's idea of ID. Never mind that every single leading ID proponent is a member of the Discovery Institute and that ID, both the concept and movement, arose whole out of the Discovery Institute. Claiming otherwise is deny literally hundreds of statements from Dembski, Behe, Johnson, et al that ID is a scientific theory that is equal to, or is superior to, evolution/abiogenesis for the origin of life. FeloniousMonk 17:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Never mind that the definition of ID given by this article is a Discovery Institute quote. Endomion 00:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

And this is consistent with the definition used by the proponents of teaching ID within US public schools. If there are indeed, as some have asserted, different versions of ID, then it might be beneficial if those making the assertion were to create a sister article delineating the different forms that they feel ID takes/expresses. Otherwise, it is a mere assertion that has not been proven. As the old debating axiom states, "he who asserts must prove." Jim62sch 14:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

I find your claims I am engaging in some sort of conspiracy to "wreck the project" insulting. Also, you know you do not like me. Please do not follow me around trying to tell people I'm wrecking the project. It is disruptive. If you wish to restate your points regarding what I wrote in a less insulting manner then I can reply.--Ben 22:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I don't read that as FM accusing you of being part of a conspiracy, he was recounting history, and pointing out that DI is the site for ID ("follow the money" might be an appropriate quote here). Additionally, your accusation of virtual stalking, see "do not follow me around," is ludicrous as FM spent more time on this topic than most of us combined. Jim62sch 23:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ben, while FM's tone might not've been perfect, I agree that what you're hearing is the result of many, many such battles he's fought over time. Love thine fellow editor as thine self. ;-) --ghost 23:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

If my tone is terse toward Ben it is because he has caused a great deal of disruption and hard feelings among many of the responsible, long-term editors here with a sad history of personal attacks, including religiously-based personal attacks that have resulted in his being blocked twice, once for a week, and a user conduct RFC which is still active. His record establishes that he's a chronic malcontent and source of disruption. His constructive additions to this article have been negligible while his outbursts and attacks have been a constant source of strife for others here. Ben has rightly earned a permanent place on many admins WP:NPA watchlists, including mine. That is the reason for my tone toward Ben, it's the only one he responds to. FeloniousMonk 23:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Stop attacking me and stop disrupting the discussion. I will not be drawn into an argument. Use the talk pages to discuss the content of the article.--Ben 23:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ben, I'm sure you'll forgive me if I note, yet again, that FM was not attacking you, he was merely stating history. Additionally, allow me to note that your words ring hollow in light of that history. EOS. Jim62sch 01:34, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

It's similar to what Judge Jones did. ID has a very long history. (thinks assume good faith and makes plans to buy a dozen dark chocolate chip cookies)Lovecoconuts 01:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Distingushing Philosophical ID (TE) from the DI's Pseudo-Scientific ID

FM, several months back there was a conversation about if this article should have a 'big tent'. This would include the views of those like Deepok Chopra who publicly support the philosophical concept of a Designer, but not ID as science or public policy. That more philosophical view is completely open to Jim's points. It's the DI's framing of the issue that prevents more open thought. I support the big tent. I think that's what Ben's talking about.--ghost 21:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

If anything, that would need to be a separate section. ID as discussed here and in most publications focuses on ID's claim to be a science - in fact that was a large part of the Kitzmiller case. As I said before, (seems like an eternity ago), if ID presented itself as a philosophy, much of the discussion on this page would go away, but it doesn't present itself that way. Jim62sch 23:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

And that's where I disagree. ID doesn't present itself as anything. The Discovery Institute represents ID as science, and goes about framing the arguments in the US as such. There are lots of folks outside the US that discuss ID as something philosophical. Therefore, the article has a responsability of represent this opinion, even if it's a minority view among supporters (which, outside the US, it's not).--ghost 23:11, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Outside the US it is represented as a science. Jim62sch 01:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

There is only one concept that is widely recognized as "intelligent design." It's the one discussed in all the news articles, editorials, in the courtrooms and schoolboard meetings; the one that grew out of the creation science movement as a response to Edwards v Aguillard and now being driven by the Discovery Institute. Any variations thereof that claim to be ID as well are currently minority viewpoints that are worthy of mention in subsections of the main article, meaning Jim's right here. FeloniousMonk 23:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'm inclined to treat this like we did on the abortion article. Abortion includes miscarraiages, but everyone talks about induced abortion. Add a header about what ID means in a vacum, and then allow the article to focus on ID by DI, leaving a brief summary section and a link to a main article.--Tznkai 00:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Many moons ago, FM had an intro that did this well. He caught flack for it. The primary reason that there is only one widely recognized concept of ID is because the folks that are politicizing the issue are framing that way. I don't think the article should exclude minority views that the DI doesn't want people to hear about. Those views are just as valid as the DI's view of ID as science.--ghost 00:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Can you Copy and paste it for me?--Tznkai 00:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Revision as of 04:57, 20 September 2005

This article is about the concept of intelligent design. See also the teleological argument. For the associated social movement see ID as a movement. For the book, see Intelligent Design (book).

Intelligent Design (or ID) is the controversial assertion that certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Though publicly most ID advocates state that their focus is on detecting evidence of design in nature, without regard to who or what the designer might be, in statements to their constituents and supporters nearly all state explicitly that they believe the designer to be the Christian God.

Ain't History great?--ghost 00:23, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I don't think that handles the big tent attempt very well to be honest. Should we just be bold and try it, or go for a straw poll?--Tznkai 00:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Tznkai's idea about adding a header about what ID means is unnecessary and confusing. The current intro is accurate, complete and concise. It does not need to be rewritten. We need to accept and focus on a stable version, and this is best one yet. FeloniousMonk 00:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

No more straw polls. They're too disruptive and susceptible to misuse. FeloniousMonk 00:39, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

This is beginning to get out of control and is wandering into PC territory, which is not the same thing as NPOV. If one wishes to discuss the minority view of ID as philosophy, it might be best to write that article first and then link to it. Jim62sch 01:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Also, this idea of "Distingushing Philosophical ID (TE) from the DI's Pseudo-Scientific ID" no more than a specious variation on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. There's intelligent design, and there's the teleological argument. There's really no middle ground of some "Intelligent design that does not claim to be science," a "Philosophical ID." That's just the teleological argument. There may be people who find the argument from design appealing, like Deepak Chopra, but that's not a separate species of intelligent design, but rather it's just the teleological argument. Saying it is a separate species of intelligent design is original research. FeloniousMonk 00:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'll concede for the moment; we have better things to do. For the record, this small tent approach is America-centric. Perhaps a better distinction from TE in the intro is in order, but it can wait. As to stabilty, while I hold the same goal, I had to dig back several thousand edits to get to mid-September. Allowing for the recent decisions, the article is still less stable than it's been in months.--ghost 00:54, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

It's not necessarily US-centric. The DI and IDEA have formed international alliances and subgroups, especially in Australia, the UK, and France. FeloniousMonk 01:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'm going to bow out of this article as I clearly have style conflicts with other uesrs here. but TE and ID are very diffrent animals. Some of the world's most celebrated biologists are Theistic evolutionists, you should read the article. The telogogical argument is a straw man of TE, which is a position arrived at by varying means, not by any strict dogma--Tznkai 01:53, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yes, TE and ID are different. Period. Jim62sch 01:56, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, no kidding. I like TE way more than ID. I've already mentioned this before, but ID is sometimes confused as TE, and there are TE-ers who object to ID. Just google TE and ID and you'll find websites explaining that ID isn't good for TE and why TE don't like ID.

Like others here, I do not demand that a clear distinction between ID and TE is included in the article. I am okay to wait and see if there will be more people (like me) who'll mistake ID for TE.Lovecoconuts 02:01, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Many (most?) ID proponents agree that ID is a form of teleological argument, even if it is not precisely the same form as the TA has been historically. Even if they are trying to make a modified form of the TA so that it is scientific, it is definitely related to the TA. Therefore I think teleological argument should definitely be linked in intro (see my comment below). Natural theology is where the connection becomes more problematic; a teleological argument is not necessarily natural theology. What makes ID a form of creationism is that is natural theology for all practical purposes. But the teleological argument isn't necessarily an argument to God, so even while denying that ID is creationism, proponents agree that it is a form of teleological argument. --ragesoss 11:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yeah. I really thought at first that ID was something philosophical. Imagine my surprise when I finally found out it was being presented as a scientific theory (supposedly on the same level as Evolution) by its proponents.

Anyway, once I found out that ID proponents were trying to get their "theory" into science class, I was absolutely disgusted.Lovecoconuts 11:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ok, and that leads to my point (and yes, I did have one). I don't care a bit for the semantics or the acronyms (although I use them as shorthand). My point is that we, the editors, are not sufficiently listening to dissonant voices of other Users and anon editors.

The trap that we seem to fall into is that we discuss the subject using facts and references. But in doing so, it becomes easy to lose sight of the disconnect between those facts and the perceptions of other editors and readers. The dissonant voices are consistantly telling us, "The ID article is...." The temptation is to disprove them using fact or reference, at which point we think we can safely dismiss them. This does a huge disservice to the article. While this type of "Fundementalist" mindset is becoming pervasive in modern political discourse, it's undermining all our efforts. I want this article to be as stable as FM does, but is can't be until we as a community begins to embrace these voices, rather than refute them.

Moral: If someone is saying, "The article is (insert objection here)", we need to listen. Because from that person's perspective the article is in fact that way. Period. Even if the facts, figures and references eventually disprove that POV, it doesn't matter. We have an obligation to put ourselves in the other person's shoes long enough to see the problem they're trying to communicate, and then adjust things to correct it without undermining the integrity of the article. That's NPOV.--ghost 14:26, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

You're correct up to a point, but the objection really does need to be valid, and not a repeat of something we have gone over before (especially when the objection is raised, over and over, by the same person). Additionally, a misinterpretation of a part of the article by a specific reader does not necessarily signify a flaw in the article -- it may be a case of a person drawing an incorrect and unsubstantiated inference (sometimes willfully). Thus, saying that we need to "adjust things to correct it" is not an absolutely true statement -- it's dependant on the nature of the objection. In other words, I agree that a fundamentalist mindset leads on to miss the "shades of gray" that dominate reality, but there are limits to how many of those shades can, or should, be included. Jim62sch 14:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I disagree about a repeated objection needing to be "valid" in our eyes. If it is being repeated, then we failed to sufficiently listen and make proper adjustments the first time. Any one person's perspective is equally as legitimate as every other. In the case of a misinterpretations either: it's accidental - this gives us an opportunity to clarify the subject; or it's willful. A willful misinterpretation is appropriate to dismiss. We cannot help those that choose to live in D'Nile (a river in Eygpt). I understand that we must have limits. But if we intend to succeed in a stable article, we cannot continue to dismiss other voices. It is morally wrong and against the spirit of NPOV.--ghost 14:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

You're both right. Obviously, some people with intense points of view will find any article that doesn't seem to agree with them as POV, and they will lobby to include their POV. Such criticism says more about such editors than they do about the article. General complaints about POV are easy to make, but need to be substantiated to some degree before they can be taken seriously.

So, in my view, when editors are willing to do more than complain, I will listen to them. When they seem to be little more than trolls, I will try to ignore them. Anyone in between will be a judgment call. -- Ec5618 15:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ok, then let me verbalize a non-specific complaint that I have heard repeated time and time again for well over 6 months. "The overall tone of the article is POV..." When I first began to hear this, I viewed it as a non-specific complaint and dismissed it. The fact that we're hearing the same thing from different people over and over means that we're missing something key. And unfortunately, some of the best qualified people to communicate this to us have recently been driven off the talk page. So that leaves us to either fix it ourselves, or invite them back to help us.--ghost 15:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

(reduce indent) I could not disagree more strongly. That we hear this again and again means merely that we hear this again and again, it means nothing else. On Abortion, we have a continuous supply of editors wanting to change the terrible, terrible POV of the article to say all abortions are mothers murdering their children (including, presumably if irrationally, spontaneous abortions.) This reflects the strong POV of the critics, not that the article is POV. On Bigfoot it is even worse - OR and POV is being strenuously defended, and anyone who tries to keep to WP:V is attacked as a censor and evil. Criticism on fringe concepts is normal. Criticism on divisive topics is normal. Intelligent design is both. We should receive criticism if we are doing our job well, making the article NPOV guarantees criticism, especially from the 95% of American citizens who are scientifically illiterate. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:55, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

(Deep breath) I am trying to bring us in line with Wikipedia:NPOV - Avoiding constant disputes. (I stink at sublinks, sorry.) While I understand the need to accept a certain amount of criticism, we must also not adopt an "ivory-tower" mentality. When we do, we run contrary to the intent of the Wikipedia project. That 95% you descibe are equally empowered here to edit as they see fit. If we attempt to exclude them, they will make sure we fail. And this can be seen in the example of the complaint about NPOV tone. I am not suggesting we back off of fact. I am saying that we need to assist these other voices in communicating their concerns (they may need help), show them what steps are being taken to address their concerns and gently show them how to help us make it better. In recent days, we have not been succeeding in this.--ghost 16:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ah! I believe I comprehend. Similar to WP:BITE if I understand you correctly? KillerChihuahua^?!? 16:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yes. If someone takes the time to edit (especially if they've become a User), we should take this as a sign they care about the subject. They may be wrong, misguided or plain stupid, but a User being any of these things doesn't give us to right to dismiss that person out of hand. Quite the opposite; they're trying to tell you something. If we don't understand them and dismiss them because of it, the failure becomes ours, not theirs.--ghost 16:57, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, but I have a philosophical disagreement with that theory, I see it as mere enabling. NPOV is not a process of inclusiveness to the point of banality. I realize that this view in non-PC (it is not, however, non-NPOV), but, hey, I'm a big fan of Plato's Republic. :) Jim62sch 01:01, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I am more than guilty of biting a newcomer recently. Ever since I read that ruling of ID, I appear to have a adopted a very anti-ID stance. Some Pro-ID-ers' (I think willful) ignorance of the trouble ID has wrought as well as their (persistent) ignorance of the good Darwin's work has helped accomplish becomes increasingly difficult to be patient with.

The problem with quite a few ID-ers is that in the first place - they are incredibly ignorant. Coupled with the tendency to act arrogant (I am right. You are wrong.) = Oh God. Give me strength. After seeing this happen again and again, I'm afraid I've started to adopt their attitude as well. It's like that's their preferred way of discussing things. Discussing religious matters is like that - this is so, this is not so, this is so, this is not so. No one will ever win an argument like that.

Anyway, I'll try as much as possible not to lose my temper, and I would like to recommend that perhaps the editors can come up with a "short" welcome statement to newcomers complaining about POV. Perhaps direct them to the Judge Jones' ruling? Or perhaps just inform them that the editors here *really* take care of the ID article and that loud accusations of POV this or that is really not a good way of getting things done.Lovecoconuts 05:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Enabling?: Yes, this stance is enabling. Like it or not, so is Wikipedia. I too love Plato's Republic, but this is not a republic, it's a true Democracy. And that means the the "unwashed masses" have as much power as any other User. Therefore the big-tent approach that I ask we take is more open, not just because it's better for the article long-term, but because in the end we have no choice. It has nothing to do with Political Correctness. Call it WikiReality.--ghost 20:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

Archival

Latest comment: 19 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion

I'm not sure who did what, but it is very pretty. However several active discussions were archived. Can we fix that?--Tznkai 02:43, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Which one did you want to continue? They are all in Archive 24. I suggest that you start a new section with the title of the discussion you want continued, with a continued from Archive 24 note, link to the old discussion, a brief summation (optional) then post your opening statement. I will do it for you if you tell me which discussion you wish to continue. KillerChihuahua^?!? 02:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The discussion about adding a distinction between ID and TE/EC is still in-progress. I'm waiting for input from TE/EC editors. I'm okay if the discussion just stays in the archive for now. (Makes things more neat) I'm going to wait until I'm absolutely sure such a distinction is necessary.Lovecoconuts 03:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Something has been added to the article concerning that - it was 4 editors, back to back. An anon, me, Tzn, and FM. Diff is here [7]. The anon added a God sentence, I edited to TE, Tzn tweaked wording, and FM moved to appropriate place in article. KillerChihuahua^?!? 11:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for informing me. It looks okay to me, and I'm glad someone else added the distinction. I actually prefer to never edit the ID article, for personal reasons. I will hope that can stop or limit confusion between ID and TE/EC.Lovecoconuts 11:50, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

My apologies. I thought you watched the article as well as the talk page, and assumed (very bad practice, that) you had seen it. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

No problem, really. As you have probably observed - I am a slowpoke contributor. I actually thought it take me at least a week before I would be adding the ID and TE/EC distinction.Lovecoconuts 12:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Normally, I would think at least a week. The anon's contrib was so close to what we'd been discussing, we took it in that direction. The process was more organic than it often is. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Marshill's list

Latest comment: 19 years ago33 comments7 people in discussion

I just discovered Marshill's list, and I'm going through it. There are some important concerns which have already beeen addressed. I am fixing other concerns myself as I go through. Here's what still needs to be done (in my opinion). If nobody else does this, I will, but I'd appreciate whatever help people offer. Any sections that were not yet written when Marshill wrote the subpage should be examined. This source is an example of how Marshill wants the article to look. It also has some useful arguments for both sides. Anyone that deals with one of these issues can cross it off. I think we could probably do all this in 24 hours, which would be excellent. Once these are dealt with, we should consult people and/or run a new straw poll. There may be other issues in the FAC attempt that I haven't looked at. Dave (talk) 10:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I honestly don't envy the editors who have to tackle the ID article.

I just have one suggestion. I think the Fine-Tuned Universe section is best taken up by a FTU editor/s. Took a look at the FTU talk page, several readers/editors are active here and there.Lovecoconuts 12:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

So, you want to accede to Marshill's desire to create an encyclopedic article as if it were a standard college debate? Additionally, I have some reservations about the other requests as well, and should like a bit of time to ponder them. Jim62sch 13:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Most of Marshill's objections were the product of a flawed understanding of the NPOV policy. Some of these have dealt with in the recent rewrite that arose out of the objections in the first place. Others were found to be spurious. Resurrecting them again after already having dealt with them was a poor idea; the article topic is contentious enough, and an additional straw poll is counterproductive. Straw polls are often a source of strife and should be used sparingly. Wikipedia's overarching goal right now of Wikipedia:Pushing to 1.0 and reaching Wikipedia:Stable versions is not going to be achieved by resurrecting divisive and disruptive straw polls, tendentious arguments made by ill-informed newbies and constantly rehashing issues considered settled by the majority of the editors. I'd archived this issue last night after two + idle weeks of little discussion and even less benefit. I'm re-archiving the list for those same reasons plus those given here. If Dave or anyone else wants to work from the list, it's available to them in the archive. They should not consider other editors here bound to follow suit in any way, though, as we'd already given it due consideration.

Also, structuring the article to resemble that article is never going to fly. It's supported by neither policy, convention, nor precendent. The article and its format is fundamentally unencyclopedia; it's a debate format, as mentioned before. FeloniousMonk 17:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'm re-adding the list of objections because I think some of them are perfectly valid. I did not include the ones that were a "product of a flawed understanding of the NPOV policy" in my list, which is why this one is so much shorter than Marshill's. Sometimes reading through "tendentious arguments made by ill-informed newbies" can be productive, when you separate out the legitimate issues from the illegitimate ones. The ID as science section and the debate section do need major work, (there's a TON of original research) and adding citations is always a good idea. The irreducible complexity and specified complexity sections don't say enough about the subject. I recognize that structuring the article the way Marshill wanted (a debate) won't work, and I wrote that on his talk page. But I was being deferential. I didn't include items in this list that appeared to already have been solved. Please assume good faith and that I knew what I was doing when I picked issues that still needed to be dealt with. I've shown myself to be a good WP:SPOV editor on this subject in the past few weeks, and even though ID is slimy, dishonest creationist pseudoscience, that doesn't mean that we've been writing a good article on it so far. Here's my list again. I hope people will take it seriously. Your opinion of "most" of Marshill's objections shouldn't matter, since these are only the good ones. Again, please keep in mind that I'm not trying to feed a troll, that I've shown good faith, good editing ability, and good judgment in the past, and that I believe that acting on these issues will improve the article. Dave (talk) 19:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

the "ID as science" section. It needs a lot of work, and I think that it's original research and arguably POV.
the first sentence of the Movement section needs a cite and possibly a rewording. Shouldn't be that hard.
the Movement section needs a pro-ID source and summary of their argument. Right now, it's only criticism.
~~The first sentence of the "debate" sentence needs a source (any source arguing against "teach the controversy" will do)~~ and an "opponents argue" or something comparable.
~~The "three issues" in the "debate" section should not be in list form and should not appear to exhaust the debate. It's original research.~~
~~Marshill wants a cite for the discrimination point. Shouldn't be hard to find one.~~
The three footnotes in a row should be separated. Putting a reference to the "wedge document" in the preceding couple of sentences will also help with another objection about references.
Specified complexity: I don't know enough about Dembski's case for it after reading that section. It needs more Dembski arguments. Adding a quote from Behe about irreducible complexity in that section is probably a good idea as well
~~We should add a reference for Fine Tuned Universe. My understanding is that some very prestigious physicists believe in it.~~

One puppy's opinion: harry491|Dave has no consensus nor even any support for any items on this list. The entire article has undergone 3 rewrites since the original list was made. Pick one, discuss it, and we'll examine the validity of the concern and how best to address it. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I can't believe you're all so worked up about adding footnotes (which is most of my bulleted items, if you'd bother to read the list) and adding better summaries of arguments made by IDers (which is most of the rest of them). These are very minor changes, with the possible exception of the science section (where the criteria for what is science need to be cited lest they remain original research). How about you pick a bulletpoint that you think shouldn't be addressed, and we'll discuss. I can't believe that suggesting that we add a quote from Dembski, a footnote from Behe, and a few references to the wedge document is stirring up such a shitstorm. Dave (talk) 20:05, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

worked up about footnotes? I am not "worked up" and I applaud useful and relevent footnotes and references. I disagree with rewriting the "debate" section, which I asked for you to bring to talk. You're talking about footnotes. There seems to have been a miscommunication somewhere. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Also, as a parenthetical note, we must have completely different definitions of "shitstorm." Civil discussion about how best to proceed with presenting information in an Encyclopedia article is most assuredly not mine. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Here's all I wrote about the debate section:

"The first sentence of the "debate" sentence needs a source (any source arguing against "teach the controversy" will do) and an "opponents argue" or something comparable." Something like this edit.
"The "three issues" in the "debate" section should not be in list form and should not appear to exhaust the debate. It's original research." Something like this edit, possibly with a two word rebuttal from DI, which is also quoted in the article.

EC apparently thinks the list makes it more readable, and that's fine. But what other people did, including deleting my list of ideas, reverting fairly minor edits on principle because they don't trust my judgment, denigrating my ideas because I happen to agree with 5% of the "tendentious arguments made by ill-informed newbies" on a particular subject, and accusing me of making massive rewrites without consensus seems way out of proportion, especailly when I'm an editor in good standing that has made lots of good contributions to this article in the past couple of weeks and over the summer.

The only place where there were going to be even moderately big changes was going to be the science section, because the list of "what is science" appears to be original research, as I wrote above. Dave (talk) 20:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Which makes at least two of us, which is why I pointed out to you that you did not have consensus or even support for your changes. Why waste effort and then complain when your badly considered edits are removed? Discuss here first. It is slower and more tedious, but if you want to write your opinion and POV alone you wouldn't be at WP, now would you? KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict)I encourage you to respond to the ideas on my list. If you and FM had done that instead of removing it and attacking me, we could have avoided all of this. The only responses I've gotten from either of you are the following (paraphrasing): "the list is bad, but footnotes are good."

Well, I didn't make any major edits, I did add a lot of footnotes, and I don't consider "you got that idea from Marshill so it cannot be implemented" to be a useful criterion. I told everyone what I thought would be improvements. Instead of discussing, my comments were deleted, my edits were reverted with an accusatory edit summary and no reason other than an attack, and I get lumped in with disruptive newbies. No one said anything like "I think the list is good" or "what do you mean by original research?" I'm not even convinced that people read much of what I wrote, because I don't understand how most of these could even be slightly controversial. When someone objected to a specific proposal, I relented, but you and FM chose not to do that. I still don't have any idea what you think about my ideas beyond "the list is bad but footnotes are good," after all this discussion.

Dave (talk) 21:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The reason no one got to the point of asking "what original research" could be because I just logged on. <--humour. Seriously, what original research?

Second, there is a good bit of history with Marshill -- it's already been discussed. In all hnoesty, the audience that found his suggestions to be of value was very, very limited. Jim62sch 23:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Making edits to the article directly aways carries the risk of reversion, which can usually be avoided by making a case for your edits beforehand. That's true. Obviously, not all edits need be discussed to the same degree or at all.

Your edits were fine, and most were not opposed. The only edit that was really opposed was your change to the layout of the list of ID debate issues, and that was because the issue had been previously brought to our attention by Marshill, at which point it was ignored. In many ways, the issue had thus been settled; as no-one had bothered to 'correct' this point, it was not considered relevant.

Duncharris reverted another one of your edits, but haven't objected, so I won't go into that. -- Ec5618 21:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Like I said, I had no problem with your reversion or with Dunc's because you two provided reasons for doing so. KC reverted me on principle. Dave (talk) 21:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I didn't, but I can see how you would think so. There is only so much room in an edit summary, apparently I gave the wrong impression for my reasons. My poor communication - apologies. My edit summaries are sometimes less than clear. Please verify in the future if I seem to be less than germane or reasonable in my summaries, ok? Thanks much! KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Also, one theme that I saw in this and other topics is the idea of outside forces setting an agenda for this (or any) entry. I have a major philosophical problem with that. First, if any people feel that way, they're more than welcome to join us. If they contribute, their efforts will be welcomed. Second, who are they to say what goes in a public effort such as this? No, this is more misguided 'Wedge' thinking at work. The editors need to define the article, based on Wikipedia policy. Not someone else.--ghost 21:28, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

people can still feel free to comment on my ideas. If I don't hear a reason not to, I shall continue. Dave (talk) 21:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

LOL. Dave, most of your edits are/have been fine with everyone. Just make me happy and ensure they're your edits, not someone else's. ;-) --ghost 21:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

But only as consensus permits, of course. FeloniousMonk 23:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Let's try one more time: "is there consensus for all of the changes I listed?"

The science section rewrite is vague. I cannot support what sounds like a complete rewrite with no idea of what will be done. That does not of course mean that I will oppose what you have in mind, merely that I am wondering what that might be. What precisely do you find to be POV? What are your thoughts on improving it? KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

<looks back at the article>. Actually, now that I read the section more carefully, I see that I missed something earlier. I thought that the big list (consistent, parsimonious, etc.) was original research, but now I see that there's a link for each one (or each group) in the section following the list. I'd like to find a way to make that clearer, to prevent people (like me, before I read more carefully) from wondering "says who?" when they read it (I'm not sure about the best way to do that, though. I understand the appeal of the list for readability and so I hope someone can suggest a good way to clarify things while making only small changes).

I'd also prefer that it be presented more as "the better a theory fits these criteria, the better science it is" rather than "the more criteria a theory fits..." because I don't think that anyone really uses a "checkbox method" like the current wording implies. As written, it's misleading for people that don't understand the philosophy of science.

I'd also be open to adding a few pro-ID sources to this section, so it's not a 10-to-1 ratio. For example, we could mention pro-ID petitons (while noting of course that they were much less successful than anti-ID petitions). I'd rather show that ID isn't science even if ID proponents get to advance all their best arguments rather than merely drowning the reader in anti-ID stuff.

At some point (i.e. not immediately), I think we should probably spin off part of the section, because I think that there's a lot more to be said (especially on the legal side) and because the section probably shouldn't get much longer than it already is.

Let me know what ya'all think Dave (talk) 00:18, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Again, the section is accurate, well supported, complete and necessary. Absent a compelling justification for a rewrite, or even more, yet another subarticle (this isn't a subarticle farm), it should be left as it is. We're not here to rewrite things willy nilly for the sake of doing it or to accomodate the objections of every passerby. I think we can all agree the goal is to create an accurate, complete and stable article, and fiddling with good content for no good reason does not move us toward that goal. FeloniousMonk 01:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Articles that are 60+ kilobytes, appear not to give the other side a fair hearing before (correctly) dismissing its claims, and subtly misconstrue the philosophy of science as a mere checklist don't help our other goals, like NPOV, readability, accessability, and accuracy. Dave (talk) 01:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

(reduce indent) Yes, why don't you go work on one of those articles for a change? I am sure you could be helpful. KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I guess I just assumed that personal vanity about the article's obvious perfection would take a backseat to making the article better and to collaboratoin. I hope you enjoy the ongoing flame wars that attitude will spark. Goodbye. If you ever need to reach me, use my talk page. I am unwatching this article. Dave (talk) 01:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I doubt that's the case. BTW, re the "checklist" -- more is the correct word, not better. We're discussing science, not philosophy. Jim62sch 02:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Guys, I think Dave is pretty new to the ID talk pages. I think he's just trying to help make it all better.

Dave, I've been watching this talk page for about a month (to 2, I think). The editors handling the ID article are under a lot of pressure, and I am quite amazed of the time and energy they had spent on this article. I am also not surprised if they feel stressed sometimes.

They really are okay with more help to improve the article, just do try not to do an in-your-face my-way-is-better-than-yours sort of thing.Lovecoconuts 01:47, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I apologise for my sarcasm.

This article is one of the most edited, and one of the, if not the, best referenced article(s) on WP. A great deal of work by a very large number of people have contributed to this article. I have no illusions that the article is perfect, nor, I think, does anyone working on this article. Perhaps if you were more specific in your concerns, discussed them here, and achieved consensus prior to making sweeping statements and edits, you would indeed find that, as L&C so kindly states, we are not unreasonable (not even the puppy.) As a recent arrival perhaps you have not taken the time to read the archives thoroughly. If you do, you may find that some of your concerns have been discussed, to the point of ad nauseum, and you may find that you are not bringing our attention to problems of which we were unaware, but rather dredging up issues which have been settled, and resettled, numerous times. If there is a way to improve the article, we are all ears. Blanket statements of POV and bad layout without specifics are generally not well recieved, as they are not helpful.

KillerChihuahua^?!? 02:12, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

What just happened? Did we lose Dave, or is this yet another example of an editor buckling under pressure? I, for one, do not mind Dave's input, nor do I see any evidence that others do. -- Ec5618 02:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

This will sound trite (OK, maybe it is trite), but tomorrow is a new day, and with the new day actions taken in haste are often repented and reversed. Relax, all. If Dave decides to return, he will be welcomed. Jim62sch 02:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I hope Dave will reconsider. Seriously, I think the reader-editors for the ID article do A LOT. And I'm not including myself, I haven't edited a single thing in the ID article. I think I continue to visit the ID talk page because I feel as though I should offer morale support. Is there any way to give virtual cookies in Wikipedia? I read Wikipedia for a long time, but it's only recently I've come to really and fully appreciate the work that Wikipedia editors do.Lovecoconuts 02:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

See my comments above.--ghost 14:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

teleological argument

Latest comment: 19 years ago17 comments5 people in discussion

I feel that teleological argument should be mentioned in the intro, as it is centrally related to ID. It is one of the very few wiki link in the disambiguation article, but is not mentioned until midway through the "origins of the concept" section. It could be added to the first sentence, right after concept: "...concept, similar to the teleological argument, that..." Or perhaps there is a more elegant way to do that. Or perhaps it shouldn't be done. Thoughts?--ragesoss 10:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I would say natural theology is also relevant, but that article needs some 'serious' work.--ragesoss 10:39, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Check the discussion/s above.

[[8]]

We're discussing on whether or not we should distinguish philosophical arguments for the existence of God as well as Theistic Evolution from "scientific" Intelligent Design.Lovecoconuts 10:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The primary difference is that ID is presented as a science and the teleological argument is philosophy. Once again, so long as IDists continue to present ID as science it needs to be treated as it is. (I do understand your point, and I looked over the intro, played with it, and don't see a way to get that in there while maintaining the the current "tone"...unless, of course, Judge Jones used the term in his ruling. That might be worth looking into. Decision ) Jim62sch 11:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yes, but science can be (or rather, is) based on philosophical ideas. See my comments above in the philosophy discussion; even ID proponents recognize the link the the teleological argument, even if they deny the link to natural theology.--ragesoss 11:23, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, science is from of natural philosophy. The problem with ID however is that it specifically targets Evolution. ID proponents immediately want *their* theory to be taught alongside Evolution. They even say ID is superior to Evolution. (shrugs)Lovecoconuts 11:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

So you agree, Lovecoconuts, that teleological argument should be mentioned in the intro?--ragesoss 11:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I am neutral about TA since I'm not very familiar about it, but concerning TE (Theistic Evolution) aka EC (Evolutionary Creationism), I prefer that a distinction between them and ID is made clear in the article. This is because I really mistook ID for TE the first time I heard about it. Plus, TE proponents are generally opposed to ID. I don't want people to think that TE proponents support ID.Lovecoconuts 11:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Actually, I think there is a fair amount of overlap between TE and ID among people ID proponents who aren't part of the "ID movement." The weakest versions of ID end up melding into TE. But I agree that for the purposes of this article, the distinction between TE and ID should be made explicit.--ragesoss 11:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The "weakest versions of ID"? We had this discussion a few sections up. There is only one version of ID. As for science and philosophy, yes there is a link in that science developed out of Greek philosophy, but it has diverged from philosophy by a substantial bit.

I do agree with both of you about the need to differentiate ID from TE, and noting that ID may have been driven in part by TA. However, the opening section does not seem to me to be the best place to put it -- I'd really prefer to see the flow not disrupted. Let's see what other editors have to say. Jim62sch 13:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

"There is only one version of ID"? I'm not sure what you mean by that. It seems obvious that there are people who are ID proponents but who believe different things about ID. Some accept common descent, some do not. Some think design is only present in a cosmological sense, some (most) extend it to biology as well. They still hold to some version of ID because they think science can test whether or not aspects of the natural world are designed, but which aspects they think actually are designed varies. For those ID proponents who treat ID as an open question (but do think the question can be scientifically investigated), the difference between ID and TE could be as slight as whether or not God's influence on evolution is detectable (as both ID and TE agree that it is there). --ragesoss 13:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Sigh*. Deists. See america's founding fathers. Ronabop 14:40, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Precisely. Having raised that point elsewhere, I decided not to raise it again so as not to look like I was harping on it. Jim62sch 14:50, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

See Felonious' comment in "Proponents definition of ID" above (this way I won't have to reinvent the wheel.) If there are schisms forming within the ID movement itself, that needs to be a separate article. Jim62sch 13:39, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I agree with the general sentiment; there is a main definition of ID, it is associated with the Discovery Institute, and that's what this article needs to be on. There isn't really anything as coherent as a schism, but there are a wide variety of viewpoints among ID proponents beyond the Discovery Institute. At this point ID is evolving in different directions. I'm not certainly not suggesting a fork, or a reorientation of the article. I'm just saying there is a middle ground, and that not all ID proponents believe the same things.--ragesoss 14:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I disagree. The main definition of ID should be objective and academic, not taken verbatim from an advocacy website. See Fallacies of definition, particularily the "over-narrow definition."--Ben 21:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I don't think that definition is the proper one because it is on an advocacy website, I think it should be because that website is widely recognized by ID proponents as a valid source for the definition of ID, and is pretty much what the mainstream definition of ID is. However, I see your point about over-narrow, as some ID proponents would not include the "living things" part. It's a trade-off; the purpose of the article is to inform the reader about Intelligent Design, assuming no prior knowledge, so for something that perhaps has conflicting definitions, if there is one main one it should be listed first. "or" rather than "and" would be a broader definition, but because even the definition can be controversial, it is important to quote verbatim and reference as much as possible; hence, the DI definition of ID. The more I consider it, the more I think a section on variations of ID would be appropriate.--ragesoss 07:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

Fine-Tuned universe and Gonzalez

Latest comment: 19 years ago11 comments4 people in discussion

I'm suggesting that the following paragraps be added to the FTU portion of the article, as it better helps to explain the process:

NOTE: 10-43 and 10-34 are supposed to be exponential notation with the ^-43 and ^-34 being superscript. Unfortunately, I havent been able to figure that out yet...grrrr. Jim62sch 14:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

superscript uses the <sup> and </sup>-tag. -- Ec5618 14:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The process to which Gonzalez refers is known as symmetry breaking, specifically that which began 10^-43 seconds after the big bang. Essentially, the four known forces – weak and strong nuclear, electromagnetic (EM) and gravity – were unified in supersymmetry during a period known as the Planck Era (before 10^-43 seconds), but began to break apart at the instant of the big bang. Gravity, which is now the weakest of the forces, broke off first (10^-43 seconds), followed by the strong nuclear force at 10-^-34 seconds and the weak and EM forces shortly thereafter. It is this symmetry breaking that drove the formation of our universe, and guides the laws of physics. However, it must be noted that there appear to be an infinite number of ways in which the symmetry could have broken, a sizable number of which would have supported some type of life (though not necessarily that which is found on earth) and many of which would not likely have supported life.

In addition to the symmetry breaking of the four forces there was a separate symmetry breaking between matter and anti-matter, which annihilate each other on contact. Normally, one would expect them to be equal in distribution, but there was slightly more matter than anti-matter, meaning that not all matter could be annihilated. This excess of matter is what we see as the universe today.

It should be noted that symmetry breaking is accepted by most if not all physicists and cosmologists although very few are on record as regarding this as evidence of ID.

Most info from:

Parallel Worlds, Michio Kaku, Doubleday, 2005

The Elegant Universe, Brian Greene, WW Norton, 2003

Good stuff. However, it doesn't serve to ID article to have the full text here. Is there a good way to provide a reference and a link to it's appearence in the subarticle?--ghost 14:43, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Thanks EC, I appreciate your assistance! Jim62sch 14:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Not sure about the subarticle link. We'll see what others think. Jim62sch 14:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The problem I see with using it as a critique is someone saying one of the particular "infinite number of ways" was selected, not random, which makes quick work of this as a critique of the anthropic principle/fine-tuned universe. Consider adding this to the FTU article and not here first, and use a source which is outright arguing this--don't just source the facts you are using to create the argument. Putting it up as a critique is actually original research, but hopefully you can find a source that discusses it as a critique of AP/FTU--and hopefully you'll only use a source that discusses the particular angle above, because I think it's obvious people will bring it up. I think it would probably be helpful to the FTU article, but it needs more sources and more discussion. It also would be better if you don't just imply it is a critique, but that you outright state it.--Ben 00:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ben, the purpose was to explain, neutrally, what Gonzalez is discussing, nothing else. Period. In fact, the inclusion of an explanation of a blurb on symmetry breaking was suggested by a recently departed editor. Absent an explanation of what Gonzalez is talking about, the reader is left with a mystery. Jim62sch 01:12, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Err.. well then you didn't explain it very well. What's Gonzalez's take on symmetry breaking? You seem to have left that part out.--Ben 05:30, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I don't care what Gonzalez' take on it is as that has naught to do with it. What was being described as Gonzalez' argument is clearly symmetry breaking (whether he knows it or not), thus, a definition is in order. Hence, "the purpose was to explain, neutrally, what Gonzalez is discussing".

Another point -- the crux of Gonzalez' (and other IDists') argument regarding nuclear forces, chemical make-up, values of physical constants, etc., as stated on the page is different from the (weak) anthropic principal. In addition, the anthropic principal as defined on the page is a bit off. To quote Stephen Hawking, "The weak anthropic principal states that in a universe that is large or infinite in space and/or time, the conditions necessary for the development of intelligent life will be met only in certain regions that are limited in space and time. The intelligent beings in these regions should therefore not be surprised if they observe that their locality in the universe satisfies the conditions that are necessary for their existence" (A Brief History of Time)

Finally, the more I read that FTU section, the more I think it needs to be rewritten. So, Ben, why not put your writing skills to use and have a go at it?

(BTW, your claim that what I wrote was OR is invalid, it was "sourced research", which is, of course, permissible (if it weren't this whole WP project would go down the toilet.) Jim62sch 11:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I added what you wrote to FTU. Discuss it there.--Ben 21:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

First, nothing or no one gave you any right to move what I wrote anywhere. Had I wished for it to be there I would have put it there myself (that I had already begun the process by noting a need for symmetry breaking to be included in the FTU article is beside the point). Second, you are not the arbiter of what is discussed when, where or in what way. Third, your effort to become the Wiki-cop by issuing citations and arbitrary decisions on the proper content of this page exhibits a disruptive behaviour in keeping with your history. Masking the behaviour with the appearance of following the rules (to the point of nettlesome officiousness) does not change the tenor of the behaviour. Jim62sch 23:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Sue God

Latest comment: 19 years ago14 comments9 people in discussion

I've seen this suggested in New Scientist but and I'm planning to do it myself. Does anyone want to join me in suing God? I'm thinking of a class action law-suit. It's quite clear he failed to design me properly as I frequently get asthma. I also want to know why he failed to design proper DNA repair systems as I've known enough people with cancer to realise he's done a very bad job there as well. As for the blind spot in my eyes, it's quite clear that this a a shoddy and poor design. On that note, I'm also quite disappointed that this lazy bastard reused so many genes and various organs and systems. As for my cat, I mystified as to why he made it lose so much fur even during autumn and winter. I can understand the need to lose fur as summer approaches but losing fur during autumn and winter is shoddy design. All in all, it's quite clear God has failed to properly design me and the pets I keep and I think a class action law suit is needed Nil Einne 14:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

LOL. Thanks for the giggle, we need it.--ghost 14:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

While I love the idea, god has no currency to pay you with, so it's not a profitable venture. Oh, and he knew you'd think about it anyway. And that I would type this. Omniscience must suck.Ronabop 14:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

While he may have no currency (and giving everyone money would only cause inflation), he could certainly do a lot of good doing community service. He could help prevent forest fires, and clean up highways.

Though, come to think of it, I don't think god technically qualifies as a person (social security number? country of residence? date of birth? corporeality?) -- Ec5618 14:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Good luck serving legal papers on him. Bill Jefferys 21:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Assume that God exists and is a person, he's still not a citizen of any country, and thus not bound to any of our laws. Wait, why is this important? Oh right. As for the argument from poor design, you run smack dab into theological discussions on the meaning of infinite good and infite omnisience and causality--Tznkai 22:02, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

This isn't the right venue for stand up comedy. I found it funny, some people might not, but either way it's obviously not about improving the article. Review Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. --Ben 23:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

If I may momentarily serve as counsel for the defence (Devil's Advocate?), I would like to point out several key issues:

There is, nor ever was a warranty on your alleged Design.
Where there an implied warranty, it was voided long ago.
Although your Design my in fact be flawed, it is more likely that your complaints are due to negligance on the part of your Manufacturers. Take it up with your parents. You may qualify on certain Lemon Laws.
As to your cat, this may be taken as proof that this alleged Designer gets intoxicated on a regular basis.

I hope this helps clarify things. I understand, Ben, but we all need light moment now and then. <;-) Happy New Year!--ghost 23:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Yes, we do need a light moment once in a while (all work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy)...and now I can't get that darned song out of my head..."What if God was one of us, Just a slob like one of us, Just a stranger on the bus, Trying to make his way home..." Jim62sch 23:57, 30 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The world would be full of pastel blues and depressing colors, and occasionally, God would slit his wrists. Err... Anyway is there a serious intent to put criticisms of design back in the article? That caused considerble chaos the last time.--Tznkai 01:56, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

You're a fan of entropy? :) Jim62sch 02:05, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Not with Intelligent Designs--Tznkai 02:12, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Einstein hypothesized two potential "designers", the God of Order and the God of Chaos. He chose the God of Order. Perhaps he was wrong. Jim62sch 02:36, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Thank God for humor. :)

By the way, I just want to add something which I think hasn't been mentioned yet, I think. You can't sue God because he created everything for free. Your case would be thrown out of court. It's like suing Santa Claus for defective toys made in China. :P

The delete is mine, Tznkai. Yah, I forgot to sign in. I think too much anger in it. I should have said something similar to Marshill a long while back. That's what I get for keeping things bottled up.Lovecoconuts 04:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Misguided in Catalunya

Latest comment: 19 years ago14 comments4 people in discussion

Alert! Those darned Catalonians just don't get it. From the Catalan article:

Els proposadors del disseny intel•ligent no prenen partit explícit sobre la identitat del o dels creadors o sobre els mitjans que van utilitzar per a dissenyar i després crear la vida, però són protegits per la majoria dels partidaris de la lectura literal de la Bíblia.

The proponents of intelligent design do not specify the identity of the designer or designers, or the means which were used to create life, but the majority of its adherents support the literal word of the Bible (re creation).

New ground is available to be tilled. Jim62sch 00:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

When will the hurting stop? -- Ec5618 01:23, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

When the universe ends in the big freeze... Jim62sch 02:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Please review WP:TPG and WP:TP --Ben 05:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Please review Wikipedia:No Irony Allowed and Wikipedia:No Humor Allowed. Shucks, those articles seem to be missing. --DocJohnny 03:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

I tried to find those articles, too. I even tried various searches like "Irony is Evil", and "Humor is a Satanic Plot", but, alas, no luck. Hey, wait! maybe someone on this discussion page will write the articles you suggest. How cool would that be? Jim62sch 11:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

Feel free to enlighten all of us as to how the inclusion of a discussion on a sister ID article is irrelevant. In fact, in looking at the sister articles, it may be possible to see alternatives for improvement of the English version of the article, or don't you agree that that is our purpose here? Jim62sch 11:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

You assume I was actually saying the "discussion on a sister ID article is irrelevant" and further assume I "don't agree that [improving the article] is our purpose here," instead of realizing I was commenting on what is clearly a quite unnecessary and offensive joke by Ec5618. I find that pretty disturbing.--Ben 20:23, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ec's joke was offensive? That in itself is funny. You might want to actually read the policies you post before posting them. The two cites you provided do not in any way relate to Ec's joke (which, to an onjective observer, would hardly appear to be offensive.) Jim62sch 23:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry, but what did I say that could cause offence? "Quite an offensive joke"? I'm sorry? Offensive joke? I have no idea how you could have possibly misread my comment to be offensive. I'll admit, it was jocular. Still, "When does the hurting stop?" was obviously in reference to the implicit suggestion that we should be expected to try to fix different language versions of the article. -- Ec5618 03:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

I'm reminded of one Farther Patrick Mulcahey, who would shake his head whilst intoning, "jocularity, jocularity, jocularity". Of course he, like Murphy Brown, Sponge Bob and Tinky Winky, is a fictional character, so I never attached any sense of gravitas to his words. Maybe we should all step back and reflect, then, on Mulcahey's mantra, jocularity, jocularity, jocularity, jocularity, jocularity, Om. Jim62sch 11:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

I note that the German wikipedia can get away with covering ID as a subsection in the general 'creationism' article, that the French, Spanish and the Dutch wikipedia call ID a theory (in the colloquial sense). The Catalan article is a nearly direct translation from Spanish (but who can blame anyone).

All other languages seem to cover all things related to ID (such as IC) in the main article. Such simple articles. Generally, the articles seem all right though, even if some seem to suggest that the bible is somehow involved in ID. -- Ec5618 12:08, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Now I don't need to look at them, I guess, you spoiled the plot! ;) Oh well, maybe I'll look at them anyway -- I was tied up on writing an article for what was once a stub for Kazimierz Zorawski. Jim62sch 13:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

I had to look...I skipped Dutch and German because Ec had them covered already:

Danish – idea/notion/concept; related to creationism
Esperanto – movement/belief; form of creationism
French – called a “series of arguments”/theory; large withering section on ID as pseudoscience
Norwegian – translation of Danish (or vice versa)
Swedish – theory; a form of creationism; large criticism section

Jim62sch 14:44, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The many names of ID?

Latest comment: 19 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion

I just learned that apparently ID has quite a few aka-s.

I know about the "sudden emergence theory" which was mentioned in the Dover trial. But what about "abrupt appearance theory," "initial complexity theory"?

I'm probably asking (hoping) too much but is it possible to make the intro something like this?

Intelligent design (ID) also known as the "abrupt appearance theory" and the "initial complexity theory" is...

My request for a clear distinction of ID from Theistic Evolution would be quite satisfied by something like above.

Again, just hoping. Others will probably have better ideas.Lovecoconuts 04:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

I don't think those other names are very common at all. And "sudden emergence theory," at least based on a quick Google (only 108 hits) is not explicitly the same as ID. The Dover quote talks about religion masquerading as science in general, and mentions creation science, ID, and sudden emergence theory together. But that does not mean creation science is the same as ID, or sudden emergence theory. They are different things that the judge was saying all share a common flaw. --Ragesoss

About sudden emergence theory - it's very recent. Apparently, ID people were already making plans to change the phrase "Intelligent Design" to "Sudden Emergence Theory" in that favorite book of theirs - ?Pandas and People? The prosecuter in the Dover trial showed drafts of a new edition of that book. That book is the #1 reference recommended by ID people for teaching ID.

Since SET is very recent, that's why I didn't include it in my proposed example intro. The other two theory names are apparently older than the ID name.

So the history of the term "Intelligent Design" goes something like this: Creationism - Creation Science - Abrupt Appearance Theory - Initial Complexity Theory - Intelligent Design - Sudden Emergence Theory.

Also, I just want to apologize in advance to the editors. I think I applying pressure to them as well. I think my stance is now similar to DocJohnny's - a while back, he suggested getting rid of the ID article and redirecting to Creationism or was it Creation Science.

I now actually think the editors are being a touch too "nice" about ID especially since a federal judge has ruled a very long scathing verdict on it. However, I'm not going to accuse the editors of being POVish though I think I will remind them that anti-ID people can also throw "POV tantrums" if the article becomes too "nice" about ID. Lovecoconuts 05:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

But a federal judge is not the final authority on this article or any other. Our responsibility as Wikipedians is present what different sides say about ID, while being clear about who says what (and thereby showing implicitly whose words have the most authority). So while the verdict is significant for this article as one of the most authoritative voices yet to weigh in, ID's existential status as right or wrong or science or pseudoscience should ideally not even figure into the way the article is written, as it is not our place to decide those questions. Our job is to identify the voices that are most representative and authoritative for each side, and try to keep the article as efficient as possible so as not to include every single minority voice to drown out the most significant ones. Yours in discourse, ragesoss 06:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

Ragesoss, I never said that a federal judge is the final authority on this article.

Actually, I have turned anti-ID because I have read so many opposing statements about it from many authoritative voices. I'll list them below:

1. Scientific authorative voice - For example, this particular idea of an intelligent design is being promoted by ID proponents as a scientific theory opposing the theory of evolution. --- The scientific community at large has denounced ID as being a proper scientific theory. It simply isn't.

2. Philosophical ID or Theistic Evolution and other variations of the philosophical argument of God's existence - Google for "intelligent design" and "theistic evolution" and you'll find webpages saying that ID is not good for TE and TE-ers opposed ID. Theistic Evolution is basically a philosophical standing that a belief in God can go hand in hand with science. ID, despite its pretense to be a scientific theory, is inherently anti-Science. ID proponents even want to change the definition of science so that ID can be considered as science. (has bad taste in mouth)

3. Legal voice - we have the Dover trial. This was very BIG news. I actually found out about this because CNN placed a red breaking news label on it when it came out.

4. Religious viewpoint - Catholics has spoken out against creation science and its variations (including ID), because creation science in particular was created by certain groups of Fundamental/Evangelical Christians to further their own brand of Christianity in science classes in public schools. Oh God. How dare they!

Another problem I now find really about this particular idea of ID is that its proponents pretend to speak for the beliefs of all religious people. Frankly, I find this ploy very irritating.

See? My viewpoint of ID is based on legal, scientific, philosophical and religious (authorative) opinions and findings about ID. Ragesoss, I think you're pretty new in the ID talk pages, but if you've been watching for a month or so (like I've been), you'll observe that quite a few ID proponents throw POV rants. That's in their right, because that's what they believe in. I also have that same right to thrown POV rants, but I'll do my best to not exercise that same right.Lovecoconuts 07:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry; I think I got mixed up between discussion of your personal opinion and discussion of what the article should be.

Yes, I am new the to ID talk page (and I appreciate your patience). But I've read quite extensively on the subject and been invovled with it in one way or another for several years. My personal list of problems with ID is considerably different from yours, but certainly no shorter. And while I don't agree with ID either, that is irrelevant to how this article should be written. But I still have some NPOV issues with this article. Yours in discourse, ragesoss 08:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

No problem, really. I can understand why you would be concerned since I more than appear to have bias opinions about ID. I can only assure you that my feelings on this matter will not be relayed to the article because I have sort of made a promise to myself to never edit the ID article. I currently have too many upset opinions about ID.

I remember at least one contributer who said that the editors should present a more or less "nice" npov of ID. I'm okay with being nice about something, but this is something which has caused a considerable amount of problems. I was especially upset when I read about a Catholic student who was labelled an atheist for accepting Evolution but not ID.Lovecoconuts 08:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Reply