Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

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February 8

nunca jamás

what is the difference between nunca and jamás. I can't find anything other than they both mean never. Do spanish speakers have a preference?--God of War 23:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

From my understanding, jamás is more emphatic than nunca, thus it's used less. But you know, I am more likely to say es la casa más grande que jamás he visto (it's the biggest house I have ever seen) rather than ...nunca.... Also, you can use the phrase nunca jamás which means "never ever." --Chris S. 01:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

tha's right, 'nunca jamás' means 'never ever', but I don't think that jamás is more empathic than nunca because from my personal experience it's the other way around, nunca seems more empathic to me, and I also don't think that nunca is used less, I guess it just depends on the person...and about the house, yeah, in that case you should use 'jamas'. it's not a rule but it's more of a thing that you get used to with time.--Cosmic girl 20:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

By empathic, did you mean emphatic? Black Carrot 00:25, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

New York City dialects

Can someone please tell me the meaning of "He was givin' me the one-two look with his eyes"? --Ribsioli 02:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

My guess is that it alludes to a "one-two" or "one-two punch", which is a boxing term for a rapid pair of blows. So I take it to mean "He was looking at me like he wanted to punch me". --BluePlatypus 08:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

O RLY?

When someone says, "Are you busy?" and we respond, "No, not really." do we mean:

  • No, that is not true.

or

  • No, not very.
 ?

  freshgavin TALK    03:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I would say it usually means you are somewhat busy, but not too busy to be interrupted for some worthy purpose. StuRat 05:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Right ... but what I'm asking here is about the sort of dual-nature that the word "really" has. Technically it would mean the same as "truly" as the adverbial form of the word "real", but it also tends to mean something close to the word "very", as in "It's really tall!". It's not a critical issue but I'm just curious about the underlying (or original) meaning.   freshgavin TALK    05:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
"really" in this context is just a modifier to give emphasis, and in that sense it's rather disconnected from the use as an adverb form of 'real'. There's a trend in all languages that some words tend to go and become general emphasizing modifiers, and lose contact with their original meaning. I know a very clear-cut example from Swedish, "jätte" (giant), which often used in words like "jätteliten" (gigantically small) or "jättesmal" (gigantically slim) without sarcasm. (Unlike English terms like "fat chance!" which were originally sarcastic, although they're not always expressed that way longer). --BluePlatypus 08:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Nice examples. FRNKS!   freshgavin TALK    03:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Use of indirect object pronoun when speaking to a person in spanish

I hesitate to use the direct object pronoun when speaking to a person about any kind of interaction between us, even when there is no tangible direct object involved. For example: I would say 'Puedo ayudarle' not 'ayudarlo/la', or 'Le llamo' not 'Lo/La llamo' or 'Tan amable a verle' etc etc. I have seen this pattern, but some argue that a strict application of the direct object pronouns is correct.

Is my sense that the form used when speaking to someone really ought to be 'softened' to the indirect object misplaced or just wrong?

We need Cosmic Girl for this one really. In my experience part of the difference is regional. I learnt my Spanish in the north of Spain and it was always, always "-le" for a person but I've noticed in other places people use "-lo" with direct verbs. Jameswilson 23:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

ok, I'll try to answer this one, I don't know what the direct object pronoun is... but, It's A LOT more common to say 'puedo ayudarLO?' or 'LO llamo' o 'tan amable verLO' the other way isn't used much, at least here in Perú... but it's mostly used when speaking to someone you barely know and is in a somewhat 'higher status' than you, because of age or whatever... but saying things like 'puedo ayudarLO' as opposed to 'puedo ayudarTE' is already enough politeness, I think.--Cosmic girl 03:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

See leísmo. --Chris S. 05:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

arbiter and arbitrator

What is the difference between and arbiter and an arbitrator? We did look them up w/ wiktionary, but not quite satisfied. Thanks if you can help us...

My impression is that arbitrator is usually used in the technical sense of someone appointed to resolve a difference between parties in dispute. Arbitration, in a commercial context, is a recognised alternative to litigation. Whereas arbiter is, I think, never used in this technical, commercial sense, and instead refers to someone with the necessary taste, critical faculty or expertise to pronounce authoritatively on a disputed point. Both derive from the Latin verb arbitrari, to give a judgement. Maid Marion 13:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Both words come from the same Latin root. Arbiter originally meant judge, but could also be someone who witnessed a dispute between others. Therefore, in Latin, it could meen witness or umpire too. In some cases, the word is used to describe the organiser of something: arbiter bibendi is the master of the feast. This same root gives the deponent verb arbitrari, which was used in the narrower sense of judge, pass sentence or discern. From this verb is formed the perfect participle arbitratus, having judged. It is from this form that the English words abitrator and arbitration come. In English, I believe an arbitrator is one who facilitates arbitration: the non-legal, yet binding, resolution of dispute. However, an arbiter is anyone who has the final say in a decision-making process. However, the distinction between these two related words is not clear, and they are often used interchangably. --Gareth Hughes 16:14, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Education

please give me an explanation on what this phrase means:

"We dont need no education"

and please help me to understand why we need an edcation.

The phrase is a quote from "Another Brick in the Wall, Part II" a song by Pink Floyd on their album The Wall. As to why education is necessary, please read education. Angr/talk 15:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I can think of two good reasons why an education is needed:

  1. To know that contractions like "don't" contain an apostrophe.
  2. To know that "don't need no" is a double negative and that "don't need any" should therefore be used, instead.

Hope that I helped bring a bit of dark sarcasm into your world. StuRat 19:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

What you all don't realize is really how smart Pink Floyd is. I believe they intentionally phrased the lyrics that way so that the kids would go "Woo! Screw grammer! We dun nead no edumacation!" and the grammatarians would go "Tee hee, 'tis a doubling negativity! Little dos they knoweth that they are promotionizaling our causum!" and the only people left unhappy are all the foreigners that don't get either.   freshgavin TALK    03:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Hey! I'm one of those bloody foreigners and please don't tell me what I do or don't get! (Actually, I never looked at it that way, but that's not the point here.) DirkvdM 10:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
And it's foreigners who don't get either. Of course now you're going to tell me that was all clever and intentional, but I just beat you to that, so you'll have to come up with something different. :) DirkvdM 18:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I reserve my right to speak the modern language of Canadian youth! Either that or I blame the Australians!   freshgavin TALK    03:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
That band really had an activist streak. The lyric makes sense if you consider the next one: "We don't need no thought control." So it wasn't like they didn't need to be educated, but that they didn't need to have an education that was full of things they would need to unlearn later. -LambaJan 03:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Apparently we Australians have more influence in the world than we have been given credit for. Even quiet achievers appreciate acknowledgement, so thanks Freshgavin. JackofOz 07:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Don't take too much credit. I just live in a place where Ozzies are more numerous than my own kind their mannerisms are starting to seep into my routines. But you're welcome anyways. (And, as a Canadian, I'm proud to say anyways.)   freshgavin TALK    06:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
You must be mistaken, mate, we don't have mannerisms. It's all those bloody foreigners who have mannerisms, accents, idiosyncracies ...... Anyhow, I'll still consider you reasonably well educated despite this. Cheers JackofOz 06:50, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Thanks ; ).  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  06:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Semi-deponent verbs

In answer to an earlier question on this page, Gareth Hughes gives a link to the article on deponent verbs. Out of curiosity I followed the link and came across a reference in the article to semi-deponent verbs in Latin. Apparently they are active in form in the present, imperfect and future, but passive in form in the perfect, pluperfect and future perfect. I can't for the life of me think of any such verb in Latin. Could someone enlighten me please? Thanks. By the way, perhaps we also need an article on defective verbs, which I see we don't have yet. I could write it in relation to Latin, but if the concept is relevant in other languages it will need someone cleverer than me.Maid Marion 16:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I can think of two, and found two more in my grammar, (given in the present and perfect tenses):
  1. audeo (I dare) — ausus sum (I have dared)
  2. gaudeo (I rejoice) — gavisus sum (I have rejoiced)
  3. soleo (I am unaccustomed) — solitus sum (I have been unaccustomed)
  4. fido (I trust) — fisus sum (I have trusted)
--Gareth Hughes 17:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Thanks Gareth. I'd never really noticed that the perfect active forms of such common verbs as these are missing. By the way, on soleo you mean 'accustomed' rather than 'unaccustomed'. Maid Marion 17:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Ah, yes: thinking too hard! --Gareth Hughes 18:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Couldn't resist one final point. Checking this out last night in Gildersleeve and Lodge I found the four verbs you cite, apparently the only ones of their kind. But they also mention the reverse case: revertor is passive in form in the present, but 'reverts' (ho ho) to active in the perfect (reverti). Maid Marion 08:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I can't say I've thought that much about it, but I would have thought that it was a straightforward third conjugation in reverto, which my little pocket dictionary confirms — very odd! I also thought that, if we allow compound verbs to be counted, we could have the semi-deponents confidere and diffidere. --Gareth Hughes 11:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

surname

I am looking for anyone who might know something about the surname Mocio. We think is Polish but then we think it might have roots from somewhere else, as it is not very common in Poland either (one of us is Polish but can't find any information)and I can't find either. For example, if you seach for Mocio in an Italian website, you get results, but nothing really related to a surname. I can't find anything in genealogy websites either.

Anyone who might have an idea about meaning, origin, anything at all and solve the mistery?

thanks a lot :)

It seems Italian; when I google it some of the first results are for Stefano Mocio, the mayor of Orvieto. David Sneek 19:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

frontispiece

Can a frontispiece of a book be a quote or does it have to be an illustration?

I've found no references that say it can be merely a quote. But there's no reason why an illustration could not incorporate words. You could start off with a quote, illustrate the words, and that would qualify as a frontispiece. JackofOz 19:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

So, if I want to use only a quote and not an illustration, would I still put it where the frontispiece goes?

Yes, but you call it an epigraph, not a frontispiece. Angr/talk 20:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Hmm, this gives me another question: What do you call the title page that preceeds the title page? I mean when you have a page consisting of just the title (and possibly the author) followed by a more elaborate title page on the next page? I remember that there was a word for it in German, but what's the English word? Or does it qualify as a frontispiece as well? --BluePlatypus 06:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I think a frontispiece is by definition a picture. What's the German word? Angr/talk 06:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I think it's "half-title" (see here). JackofOz 07:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
As well as "bastard title" and "fly title". So many names, and I didn't know a single one! :) --BluePlatypus 07:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
"Schmutztitel" (dirt-title). --BluePlatypus 07:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Admissions of lack of omniscience lend a person a certain je ne sais quoi, BluePlatypus. JackofOz 07:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
My German dictionary glosses Schmutztitel as "half-title", so I think we have our answer. Angr/talk 07:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Lancelot

I know he's French, and I know his name is French, but I'm trying to translate the 'du lac' bit into Welsh. Since I don't know Welsh, I used a translator. Going from 'of the lake', I get 'chan 'r llyn'. Using 'du lac', I get 'unrhyw llyn'. Which is a better translation? DuctapeDaredevil 20:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

And is there any way I can crush it into one word, like Bedwyr's 'Bedrydant', 'of the perfect sinews'? DuctapeDaredevil 21:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Welsh often signifies possession by placing the words together: y gath yr eglwys, the church cat. --Gareth Hughes 21:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yes, but you don't double the definite article. It's cath yr eglwys, not *y gath yr eglwys. Angr/talk 06:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
But it's not posession. It's not Lancelot's lake, it's the lake he is from. DuctapeDaredevil 21:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I wouldn't count either of them as a satisfactory translation - "unrhyw llyn" means "any lake", and I can't figure how you got "chan 'r llyn" - you don't get consonant + 'r anyway, and do you really mean "chan", mutation of "can", a song? I'd say "o'r llyn" anyway... - Arwel (talk) 22:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Like I said, I don't speak Welsh, so I used an online translator. (Sorry, just noticed the last part. Thanks!) DuctapeDaredevil 01:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I agree with Arwel. If the machine translator gave you chan as Welsh for "of", it's completely unreliable. (Even worse than most machine translators.) "Lancelot of the lake" meaning "Lancelot from the lake" is Lancelot o'r llyn, while "Lancelot of the lake" meaning "The lake's Lancelot" (possession) would be Lancelot y llyn. Angr/talk 06:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Thank you! DuctapeDaredevil 21:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I think "Prince Michael of Albany" says in his book Bloodline of the Holy Grail that du Lac was really a mistaken form of del Acqs. I have no idea whether mainstream scholars agree with this, though. Ardric47 00:12, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Coming a bit late to this, two things. First, there is at least one (and possibly more than one) web-based English/Welsh translation program whose results have been causing hilarity on Welsh mailing lists and and weblogs for a while, to the extent that people were feeding it song titles for entertainment. This looks a very typical sample of its output. Second, Lancelot apparently has his own name in Welsh: Lawnslot! This is according to Geiriadur yr Academi, which is a big English->Welsh dictionary. (Alas, it offers no opinion on du Lac, sorry.) --Telsa (talk) 16:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

February 9

Schwa accent

I am trying to convert a document from plain text that has the following note. (Note: Weston's first "Titan" above had schwa accents over the vowels, the second "Titan" had macron accents over the vowels). I found what the macron accent was but I can find no reference to a schwa accent that could be put over a vowel. From all I see a schwa is ə. Here is the lines the note is refering to with the macrons added in: M. Van Gennep in his Rites du Passage, that the original form was Titan, 'White-clay men,' which later became Tītān, 'Giants,' and she draws attention to the fact that daubing the skin with white clay is a frequent practice in these primitive rituals. Any help would greatly appreciated the full text is at s:From Ritual to Romance/Chapter VII#ref_16. The paragraph follwing the 16th footnote.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 00:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

It will be a diacritic that marks a reduced vowel. The IPA letter /ə/ is used to mark a mid-centralised vowel that is often called a schewa. The mark is probably a breve: ǎěǐǒǔ. --Gareth Hughes 01:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
What GH has shown there aren't breves ‹˘› but carons ‹ˇ›.
Schwa with macron ‹¯›: ‹ə̄›
Schwa with breve: ‹ə̆›
Schwa with caron: ‹ə̌›
As for the “schwa accent”, Wikipedia says:
“A mid-centralized vowel is a vowel closer to the center of the vowel space than some point of reference. That is, it is closer to schwa [ə]. The diacritic used to mark this in the International Phonetic Alphabet is the over-cross, [ ̽].”
Hence, it would be ‹Tı̽ta̽n›.
“The diacritic for [centralisation] in the International Phonetic Alphabet is the dieresis, < ¨ >.”
Hence, it might even have been ‹Tïtän›.
However, I seriously doubt that all this current IPA usage is of any help, seeing that Weston died in 1928. Wikipeditor 23:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

February 10

Tone

The internet has caused us to be very demanding of the written language, and in English this seems to cause a lot of problems with tone because there don't seem to be very many effective and well known ways of communicating the proper tone in English. So if I want to tell a sarcastic joke and make the person I'm writing to laugh, I'll probably make them upset because unless they know me in real life and know I wouldn't say that unless I was joking. So people invented emoticons to pick up the slack, but they're kind of annoying and not always effective.

So my question is: Are there other languages where tone isn't a problem and written internet communication is a lot easier? And what are the best mechanisms built into in languages to communicate tone? -LambaJan 03:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I don’t think there are any natural languages or Constructed languages which would fit the bill, not even imaginary languages (certainly not Klingon, for example. I suppose you could point to Formal languages, but in the end they can only tell you that 1=1.
Whether in speech or writing, in any human language, words and their meanings are only a relatively small part of what is communicated. Tone, gestures, eye movements, pauses and hesitations, and numerous other signals convey not only THE message but a host of sub-messages as well, most of them unconscious. In turn, what the hearer/reader understands is influenced by an equally vast complex of conscious and unconscious, intellectual and emotional, experiential and intuitive expectation. That’s why data communications are so much simpler. --Halcatalyst 03:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, simpler, but more difficult because most of those cues that you mentioned are lost in the transmittion. Is there any language that even comes close to accomidating this? I suppose it wouldn't have been so necessary in the past... But it would be nice to know about now. At least to know what mechanisms have been effective in this regard. -LambaJan 04:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
There are languages with more explicit moods than English (e.g. Japanese). Maybe tone can be conveyed more easily in these. ᓛᖁ  04:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I kind of like the method used by one contributor here, fake HTML tags:

<sarcasm> George Bush is the guardian of our personal freedoms. </sarcasm>

StuRat 04:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply


Don't know if it can convey proper tone, but romance languages share many common words, these were collected and combined with an ultra simple grammar to produce < tada sound effect >Interlingua. And its very natural. No new constructed words are used.--Jondel 11:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
<sarcasmo> George Bush es le guardator de nostre libertates personal. </sarcasmo>
Some languages do use tone to do a lot more than we use it for in English, and in some writing systems (Burmese alphabet) these are marked. Other languages use grammatical particles (little words) to express shades of meaning that we cannot mark in English (this is especially true of some American languages, and borrowed in the constructed Láadan). In written English, we can use a number of features that suggest that the words are not to be taken literally:
  1. George Bush is the Guardian of our Personal Freedoms. (sometimes a bit too subtle)
  2. George Bush is the 'guardian of our personal freedoms'.
  3. George Bush is the "guardian of our personal freedoms".
  4. George Bush is the guardian of our personal freedoms.
You don't have to make your writing look like a markup language. --Gareth Hughes 13:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
The tonal languages use pitch to distinguish words, not to convey subtle meaning, as I believe LambdaJan was asking about. "Tone" is the speaker's attitude toward his/her subject matter or audience; it may be conveyed by word choice, as in
  • I am firm
  • You are stubborn
  • He is pigheaded
but more likely in non-verbal gestures, tone of voice, and the like. As mentioned above, there are also many ways to communicate attitude in writing.--Halcatalyst 16:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Dutch theme song

Anybody here know Dutch? I'd like a translation of a Dutch TV show theme song:

Je bent een bluffer, Je blijft een bluffer, Je droomt en bluft erop los. Je bent niet suffer Maar wel weel duffer Al ben je soms ook wel de klos. De wereld gaat niet goed Dus heb je een idee Hoe het leven anders moet, Maar hoe je ook bluft en doet, Het zit niet altijd mee.

[I made few minor corrections - DS]

KeeganB

You are a bluffer
You will stay a bluffer
You dream and bluff freely.
You are not more dozy
But a lot stuffier
Even if you're sometimes a sucker too.
The world isn't going well
So you have an idea
How life should be different.
But no matter how you bluff and act,
It isn't always going your way.
It doesn't make more sense in Dutch. David Sneek 07:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I appreciate the translation. KeeganB


There is, are?

Which is correct: "there is a man, a woman and a child in the buidling", or "there are a man, a woman and a child in the building"?

In US English, "are" is correct. StuRat 11:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
'are' because you are refering to (plural) a man, a woman and a child. --Jondel 11:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I agree with that, up to a point. The verb in the expletive construction "there is/are" is governed by the subject that follows it. The subject in this example is not "a man", but "a man, a woman and a child". That is plural, hence the verb is "are". But there's the problem of euphony. "There are a man .." sounds ugly and takes effort to clearly enunciate, so most people would naturally say "there is a man .." or "there's a man ..", and only died-in-the-wool pedants would quibble. (These are the same people who would draw attention to the misspelling of "building" as "buidling".) To avoid the clash between theory and practice, it'd be best to recast the sentence. eg. "A man, a woman and a child are in the building". JackofOz 11:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Both are correct (from a prescriptive and otherwise POV). --Chris S. 13:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

  • Thank you, JackofOz especially, and I am not correcting the 'buidling' typo because correcting it might render JackofOz's parenthetical illustration slightly less pointed.
Frailty, thy name is written humour. This was an attempt at taking the piss out of myself to balance out the lofty academic tone I had adopted. It was not a swipe at your spelling. I had to borrow that reference to make the point that this was not a point I was making. (I think I'm getting into this linguistic quicksand too deep, so I'll just stop now.) JackofOz 01:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I prefer the verb agree with the closest item (agreement by proximity); "There is a man, a woman and a child in the building." Think of the sentence this way: "There's a man, there's a woman and there's a child in the building." —Wayward Talk 19:02, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

India-born, Indian-born

Could someone explain the difference, if any?

The first means 'born in India', the second means 'born an Indian'. I've never actually heard the first one used, but it would be a reasonably way to describe e.g. the British people born in India during the Raj. Markyour words 10:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Also note that "Indian" can be taken in the US to refer to Native Americans. StuRat 11:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

"Indian born" doesn't seem to make sense if you're claiming it means "born an Indian". If someone's born an Indian (ethnicity), they're going to die an Indian, or any other ethnicity. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

It can also refer to their citizenship. A person born an Indian citizen who later takes out Romanian citizenship would be correctly described as an "Indian-born Romanian". This would not suggest that they have ceased to be ethnically Indian because, as you say, nothing will ever change that. JackofOz 06:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

Ok, I've looked everywhere to see the pronunciation of pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis. I've used very ditionary at the library i could find. I'm geting kind of desperate. Please if you could help me I'd be thankful.

P.S. Don't ask me how I know that word.

As Sgt. Wojciechowicz on Barney Miller used to say when people asked him how to pronounce his name, "Just like it's spelled." Angr/talk 11:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Many problems become easier if they're broken into smaller, more manageable segments. Try this: pneumo - ultra - micro - scopic - silico - volcano - coniosis. JackofOz 12:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
You left out a no between pneumo and ultra. Angr/talk 12:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
The pneumo version is the one I've always known, and it gets 744 Google hits. But you're right, the pneumono version gets 26,000 hits. Which is all a bit academic now since we know it's a hoax word, so there's no such thing as the correct spelling (because if there were, that would make it a legitimate word.) JackofOz 00:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I hate long words like this that really should be two words. Pneumonoultramicroscopic is an adjective, and silicovolcanoconiosis is a noun. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious is the same way. There's no glue holding together supercalifragilistic and expialidocious. —Keenan Pepper 16:02, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Let's see: pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis --> pneu-mo'no-ul'tra-mi'cro-scop'ic-sil'i-co-vol-ca'no-con'i-o'sis, since the syllable emphasisis is presumably similar to that of the word components when used elsewhere in English. Coniosis means "Any of various diseases or pathological conditions caused by dust." So the word refers to a lung condition caused by very fine silicon dust from a volcano. It's good to know what one is talking about; probably the word has a valid use in medicine, grotesque and comical as it may seem to us laypersons. --Halcatalyst 16:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Not really, it is a hoax, but see pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis and longest word in English, too. Rmhermen 17:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as "a factitious word alleged to mean ‘a lung disease caused by the inhalation of very fine silica dust’ but occurring chiefly as an instance of a very long word." Note also that Keenan's complaint is right -- adjectives ending in -ic don't normally turn into prefixes without a change of ending. "Pneumonoultramicroscopicosilicovolcanoconiosis" would have been a more natural, or at least less unnatural, formation. But in fact -scopic- is really not contributing to the meaning anyway, and a scientist who was going to invent a word along these lines would probably omit it. Further, the order of the components is odd. "Volcanoultramicrosilicopneumonoconiosis" seems more sensible. --Anonymous, 02:04 UTC, February 11.
When you refer to the p45 article, you may realize that it was not a hoax. It was a funny hypothesis that made sense. Like poesis (poetry), you first imagine reality and then it becomes real. Hoaxes do sometimes. --DLL 13:41, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

What do you call...

Given that one collecting coins is numismatic, what would you call a collector of clean jokes or humor? Just curious--- Thank You- JAC, Pittsburgh, PA. USA

How about humorista? (modeled on turista) --Halcatalyst 03:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I looked all over for a proper Greek word for this, but couldn't find one. Roget's Thesaurus lists humorist, wit, wag, joke, jester, funnyman, quipster, tease, teaser, gagster, gag writer, wisecracker, jokesmith, ironist, satirist, lampooner, caricaturist, cartoonist, comic, comedian, straight man, clown, buffoon. —Keenan Pepper 18:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
If a Latin root will do, we can turn to ludicrous << L. ludicrus << ludus, a play or game, and add a Greek suffix to derive ludicrousmatic. Perhaps that will do? Or ludichrismatic, maybe? ..."annointed with fun," a glaringly awful Greek-Latin amalgam which might strike some people as funny, and has the added advantage of sounding somewhat parallel to numismatic. --Halcatalyst 02:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC) (forgive me)Reply
Actually, a collector of coins is a numismatist, so a collector of jokes might be a ludichrismatist. JackofOz 02:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Thank you SO much. being a "ludichrismatist" is perfect. Whether it is in Webster's yet or not makes no difference in my situation. Way too long of a story but, I just needed a viable word and you have come through for me. Many thanks to you Halcatalyst. The best definition for me personally (meaning as a person) is 'Buffoon' but that is yet another story. ;)

English,Chinese Learning

--HydrogenSu 16:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

我其实会说中文。可是我的中文不太好。我觉得数学比中文容易!我有很多中国朋友,他们在美国学习,他们没告诉过来我你写的字。对不起我说中文说

得糟糕!Dmharvey 15:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

It's ok. You've tried your best. Great. What you wrote have some grammar problem,like:
我其实会说中文。可是我的中文不太好。我觉得数学比中文容易!我有很多中国朋友,他们在美国讀書,他们没跟我說過你所写的字。对不起我中文说得很糟(糕)!
For the above,I've given you totall which will be better.
The word 糕 can be ignored. Keep trying and you'll improve in 中文!
Might:In Taiwan,早點=早餐. In Mainland China,people say 早餐,not早點. And saying "早上好(Good morning)" not 早安(said by Taiwaneses).

--HydrogenSu 17:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply




You would never say "have some stuck" in any English, but would either say "have some trouble" or "get stuck". The phrase "advice in appropriate time" is also awkward, and you should say "quick advice", instead. Let's look at another one of your sentences:

The Chinese leader thought something hide in his mind:Wow......I don't understand what this tall white guy talking about in public.

That should be:

The Chinese leader thought to himself: "Wow...I don't understand what you're talking to the public about."

Also, it wasn't clear whether the "you" is the Chinese leader or the US President. StuRat 17:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
The Chinese leader is Hu. The US President is "who?". JackofOz 05:55, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
"Je vais chercher ___" means "I am going to look for ___". Ardric47 05:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • I feel that En. always exists some trouble in it and makes confusing. That is while people is going to express "You / Your" of some of you. (1 or more You?) .....Wound it be 1 or more?
If the same cases in French or in Chinese...etc--It's much better.
EX:
Vos calendiers ; Votre calendier ; Ton .... ; Ta.....
=Your several ones' cal.  ; Your.....
Not talking about 中文 here. 'Cause too difficult for most Westerns. --HydrogenSu 14:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
And-d what I critized was for "Languages", NOT LIKE ... do it for a "PERSON".--HydrogenSu 14:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

February 11

coëval

Any idea what this word means in the following sentence. I can't see how it means "contemperary" in this context. whose gardens were kept forever green by the streams from the neighboring hills, and shaded with the trees sacred to Minerva and coëval with the foundation of the city, — whose circuit enclosed--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 00:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

It means the trees existed when the city was founded. —Wayward Talk 01:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the quick answer. It is a rather obtuse way of wording, but obtuse seems to his style.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 03:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Missouri

Hi. Some time ago, I added a question at Talk:Missouri#Pronunciation about the pronunciation of Missouri. There were lots of non-IPA answers (i.e. ones that didn't really help me). The only proposed IPA was /mɪsˌsɚɹi/ and /mɪsˌsɚɹə/, both of which look kind of awkward to me. Could someone check these for accuracy, or provide correct ones? Thanks in advance. --Rueckk 12:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Done. Angr/talk 13:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Thanks a lot! --Rueckk 14:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

February 12

Chinese head dress

What is the name of the cone shaped hat worn by chinese workers especially those working in rice paddies?

I've always heard them called coolie hats. Angr/talk 15:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I associate those hats more with the Vietnamese than the Chinese. StuRat 21:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Language Academies

Why is that English speaking nations never bothered to create an institution for defining their language, like France?

Perhaps they feel, as I do, that any attempt to define the language will ultimately fail, as languages evolve over time. It's quite similar to planning a city, versus letting it evolve naturally. Planned cities usually outgrow the planned area and continue to evolve naturally, as would any language. StuRat 18:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
A language is shaped by its speakers and writers, then defined, in a limited and very technical sense, by specialists (linguists, lexicographers, grammarians, etc.). In France the Académie Française, which did once arguably fulfil a useful function, now neither shapes nor defines the language and is largely ignored. In short, I think that if English-speaking countries felt the need for such institutions, they would have them. - Mu 19:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps because we fear people might enforce its rulings... --Gareth Hughes 19:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
French doesn't have a body for 'defining' it. The French academy makes recommendations (which few care about), and print dictionaries, but they don't define the language. Neither does a dictionary: definition is in usage. Linguists don't make up words to be included in a dictionary and used by the people. It's the other way around; people use words and the linguists put them in the dictionary. Most institutions don't even make recommendations, the Swedish Academy, heavily similar to the French one, are satisfied with awarding Nobel prizes, publishing dictionaries and a century-long project of creating an etymological one. But they don't even try to make recommendations on usage. That said, there are some instances where it's successful, as with the Icelandic language committee. Most European languages have had several official spelling reforms. English could certainly use one. Paradoxically, English is very liberal towards introducing new words, and very conservative towards spelling. Which makes for the massively inconsistent English spelling. --BluePlatypus 21:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Part of the reason for that is that the pronunciation of many words has changed over time (and continues to do so, and at a seemingly increasing rate). To try to keep pace with pronunciation changes by constantly altering spelling would not be a good idea. The inconsistency of English spelling is a part of the charm and challenge of the language, and moreover it keeps a lot of teachers and linguists employed. JackofOz 22:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
The opinions of the various national academies do carry a certain weight in society though. I remember a Spanish girl, who was being teased about her southern accent, replying that she was "permitted by the Real Academia" to pronounce "Z" as "ss" not "th" because she was from Andalucia and it was an officially-sanctioned regional variation. This was said spontaneously in the middle of a normal teenage conversation about something else entirely. So obviously she at least had been conditioned into thinking that these things matter. Jameswilson 00:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Oh definitely! Since the rise of modern society, up until the late 20th century, regional dialects all over Europe have been in trouble. Ranging from having low status ("You sound like a farmer!") to being banned outright (Franco's Spain). Institutions have played a very important role in helping increase the status of and promote dialects, as you point out one of the many examples of. But there's of course a bit of difference between an institution telling someone to be proud of how they speak and telling them to speak differently than they do. --BluePlatypus 17:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I disagree. The main problems in English are loan-words (which English alters the spelling of less than other languages, and I believe I can prove that), and the retention of archaic spellings from before spelling had been regularized. All languages have shifting pronunciation, so that's not a problem particular to English. --BluePlatypus 17:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
OK. Let's say we decide to reform English spelling to better reflect pronunciation. Next question: which pronunciation? There are so many local varieties of spoken English that it would be impossible to ever reach consensus about which is the "correct" one. To have a different spelling for each different pronunciation of the same word, would be a recipe for confusion far worse than that which obtains today. JackofOz 21:52, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
On one hand that's true; on the other, beyond wide spread and consistent vowel shifts and likewise consistent pronounciation of r issues, the major dialects of English are fairly consistent in broad pronounciation. If you largely take a pass on the fine details of vowels (since there are way more vowels in English than we have vowel letters to spell them) and leave the r's alone (since they represent one pronounciation, and where they are lost and found in other dialects is fairly predictable), you could devise a better spelling that better represents all major dialects of the English language.--Prosfilaes 22:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
But is there really a great desire for change? Really? I think that there is such a huge amount of intellectual capital invested in our love of words and their lore, that any serious impetus for change would be resisted very strongly indeed. I've read many proposals for revised spelling, but have never been attracted to any of them because, well, they just don't look right and they don't produce the right feeling in my breast - which is the best explanation I can give. Once a person has a reasonable grasp of any written language, they no longer perceive words letter by letter but as discrete word-units. Make any change to the "look" of those units - however well justified that may seem - and you're in for trouble immediately. A spelling such as "yoosij" (instead of "usage") looks foreign to me, and I have to consciously process the meaning before I move on the next foreign-looking word, which makes for a slow, unpleasant and tiring experience, exactly the opposite of how reading should be. So spelling reform is really only pandering to those who have not yet started to learn the language, to the complete disregard of the billions of people who already have. Think of the huge issues it would create, far worse than any issues it would seek to address. Would the whole of English literature need to be re-spelled retrospectively? If so, who would have that unenviable task? If not, we'd have 2 separate canons of writing co-existing, which would inevitably create "us and them" issues. There is a significant right-brain, emotional, gestalt component to reading, speech and communication generally, which is not commensurate with the entirely mathematical, logical, left-brain approach that some proponents of spelling reform advocate. JackofOz 23:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Now we're at the heart of the issue; people aren't happy with change. Responding to the non-emotional parts of your post...
It's true that those who know English know would have to relearn spelling, but that would be a one time event. Every child has to tediously learn the connection between the written word and the spoken word, in a way that's much more complex than any other language written with an alphabet, and those billions of children outnumber the current speakers of English.
Yes, the whole of English literature would need to be re-spelled; a respelling of the Book of Mormon in Deseret took a couple hours (John Jenkin's page) for a first attempt; I suspect a computer program could assist a human to do most books in a couple minutes. The only problems would be printed books and books that aren't in regular spelling. A successful conversion would convert everything in print and everything digitalized in a few years. Many libraries I've see replace large parts of their collection every few years; in a decade or two, many public libraries would have the bulk of their material in modern spelling. I don't think it would be hard enough to master two orthographies that there would be a significant us versus them.--Prosfilaes 02:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Language and communication is an inherently emotional subject. Ignore that at your peril. You're dead right - people aren't happy with change (and with a colossal change such as this, they would be well justified in their resistance). That is a major issue that anybody seriously contemplating this sort of project would have to think long and hard about. You're way ahead of me on the technical side of doing the respelling. The billions of people I mentioned are not just the people for whom English is their sole or primary language, but also the people for whom it is a secondary or other language, or who have learnt it to some degree but who use it only occasionally. They live in every country on the planet, and they would all need to be re-educated. Best of luck to anybody undertaking this project. JackofOz 03:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
But whatever figure you give for the number of people today, you have to figure that people will continue to be born and continue to learn English. And the people for whom it is a secondary or other language are the people who would benefit most, for whom it is the most troublesome to have to learn the spelling and pronounciation of every word seperately, unlike in Russian or German.--Prosfilaes 06:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
That's right. Look, I just think there is no case for anybody embarking on this. Inconsistency is not a reason for the sort of change I think you're suggesting. Humans are brilliant at tackling complexity and inconsistency. The law is a colossal minefield of inconsistencies, but our whole society is based on it. Language learners have to remember thousands of words and rules as it is, most of which have exceptions, so why is remembering these pronunciation-spelling disconjuncts a hugely greater burden? They're no worse than the verbs of motion in Russian, which still elude me. Even if there were a compelling case for spelling reform, the spread of English throughout the world means that the sorts of international cooperation you'd need would make Kofi Annan extremely envious. JackofOz 07:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
If you want an example of a centralised spelling reform, look at German spelling reform of 1996, an attempt to make the (also somewhat archaic) German spelling rules more consistent. The controversy has still not died away, and the result is a mish-mash between people using the old and the new rules. — QuantumEleven | (talk) 08:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Humans have a pain learning English spelling. Note how many adult native English speakers have trouble with spelling? Do you really think that learning 10,000 words of written English partially disjoint from spoken English is no big deal? Vocabulary is one of the hardest things of a new language. To be entirely honest, the US and UK could push it through together. It'd be just like metric and the Gregorian calendar; the big boys pick it up and everyone else has to follow or be left behind.--Prosfilaes 19:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yes, but that's normal. 10 years isn't that long in these terms. It takes a few decades for any such reform to reach full impact. And to answer some of the points above: Noone would have to re-learn spelling, because the new spelling would be more intuitive, since it'd be more consistent with the rest. As for burden: Why make things more difficult than they need to be? Should things be difficult for the sake of being difficult? I just don't buy the arguments. It can be done. It has been done. And English does have less consistent spelling than most languages. None of the counterarguments raised so far are specific to English. Other languages have local variations in pronunciation as well. Other languages have shifting pronunciations too. Other languages have inconsistencies too. But English has a singularily inconsistent spelling. So, please phrase any further arguments as "Unlike other languages, spelling reform can't be done in English, because unlike other languages English..." --BluePlatypus 11:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yes, they'd have to learn the new spelling, both the principles behind it, and to recognize it fluently. It has been done, but the major written languages, like German, have made minor spelling changes, and the languages that have changed scripts (which this would be almost as bad), like most of the Turkic languages, have had generally low levels of literacy and not a large body of widespread literature.--Prosfilaes 19:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • The German spelling reforms (a) seem to have been low in number compared to the task faced by reformers of English spelling and (b) were confined to 4 countries, compared with hundreds.
  • The Gregorian calendar hasn't been universally accepted, after 424 years.
  • Metric is a country-by-country thing (the USA, for example, is still holding out). Don't expect to change English spelling in only one country at a time. It's effectively the language of the world.
  • Nobody has suggested making things any harder than they need to be. Spelling and pronunciation of many words has diverged over time because the pronunciation keeps changing. That divergence has occurred gradually, word by word. Spelling reformers are about making massive changes in one fell swoop.
  • BluePlatypus, if your last sentence about phrasing was a request, I must graciously decline in order to retain my independence. If it was a command, I refuse. JackofOz 20:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I refuse to permit the world to hold my language hostage. Any group has the right to deal with their language as they will. If the US wants to change the spelling of their language alone, then we have that right. More realistically, the half-dozen countries that actually speak English natively--the US, the UK, Ireland, Canada, New Zealand, and South Africa (and arguably India)--can and should feel free to make any such changes and the rest of the world can deal. I don't see any difference between this and metric and Gregorian reforms. Yes, countries could hold out at their own expense, but the only major non-metric country is big enough to ignore the rest of the world.
You forgot Australia. JackofOz 10:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yes, USA or any country can change its spelling, so off you go then. I'll be the first to congratulate you if you can achieve what you're suggesting. But I wonder this: if the USA has held out about the metric system, why would she be so willing to embrace spelling reform? JackofOz 10:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yes, you've suggested keeping things harder then they need to be. There is no reasonable non-flag day solution to this.--Prosfilaes 04:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
That is a flawed argument, which I'll now formally dub the "Prosfilaes Proposition": Those who oppose an idea, no matter how ill-founded the idea may be and how sound the objections may be, are responsible for denying the alleged benefits of the idea to the intended recipients of those benefits. That doesn't wash with me at all. It is up to you to demonstrate this idea has merit. I remain unconvinced.
An abstruse statement like "There is no reasonable non-flag day solution to this" (whatever it means) is certainly no exemplar of the simplicity and ease of communication you seem to be advocating. JackofOz 10:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I have to ask, do any of you actually want to change spellings? I don't have any problem with a rousing theoretical debate, but I hǎv tū wǔndr ūaē ěnē nātiv spēkr wūd wǒnt ěē pyrlē fōnětik sistǔm. Even if the vowels were fudged, it'd look ridiculous, and I just don't see the benefit. Black Carrot 23:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
How can you say it would look ridiculous without even looking at it? I think writing English in Tengwar would look beautiful; it might be ridiculous, but that's a different matter. You don't see the benefits in making literacy in English vastly easier to obtain by children and students?--Prosfilaes 04:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

World records and firsts

Two questions below. Jay 19:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

  1. A world record according to the article is the "best performance in a certain discipline". If a person did something unique in the world for the first time, would that be a world record ?
  2. Words corrsponding to best - fastest, highest, busiest, longest, shortest, etc. - would come under the umbrella word "superlatives". What similar category would the "first" words come under ?
1) Yes, but perhaps a somewhat meaningless record. To be a record it of course has to be recorded, so the word does imply that it has to be something worth recording, something someone cares about. 2) "First" doesn't have a superlative form because it's not comparative. It stands for itself: You can't be "more first" or "less first". So "first" is an absolute adjective. --BluePlatypus 21:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
1) Hasn't World Record lost the literal meaning of "recording" that you've mentioned and come to mean a recognition of abilities and events as the definition suggested ? 2)Oh ok, I omit the words "similar category". What general category would the word "first" come under, if I go by Wikipedia:categories naming ? Jay 22:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
"First" is an ordinal number. Angr/talk 22:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
If the word "record" has lost its meaning in that sense, give an example of a record which isn't recorded? (Impossible of course, since you'd be recording it in doing so) But there are record-books specifically for these things.. and in most people's minds being in "the record books" is what makes a record a record. --BluePlatypus 17:50, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Crackers

From whence comes the term "Crackers"? As in Georgia Crackers, or those little square things we eat?

The edible crackers are so called because they can be cracked, unlike bread. For the people, see White cracker#Etymology. —Keenan Pepper 23:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

"Should salt-free saltines just be called ines ?" StuRat 06:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

For ever and ever.

One frequently hears the expression "for ever and ever", especially popular in Catholic prayers. Why the redundency? The only explanation I can think of is that one forever would be forever in time and the other forever would be forever in distance. Any body have any other thoughts on the subject?

IIRC, in Catholic prayers it's usually a translation of Latin in saecula saeculorum, literally "into ages of ages". Maybe whoever first translated it into English decided to mimic the repetition of the Latin word by repeating an English word. Angr/talk 22:28, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
It's a form of emphasis; the theological meaning can be taken as "beyond the ages," that is, eternal. As a religious formula, the expression is similar to Jesus' admonition to forgive "seventy times seven" = always. --Halcatalyst 01:50, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
The repetition also occurs in other languages, it's not just an English thing. JackofOz 01:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

bio-poems

what about them? СПУТНИКССС Р 23:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Oh, buy, oh, buy my poems: a penny a line! --Gareth Hughes 01:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
sp: biro-poems? --Gareth Hughes 01:03, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Something by a Confessional poet? --Halcatalyst 01:43, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

February 13

organogram, organigram

Anybody knows anything about these words?

This was the very first hit on my Google search. JackofOz 05:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I would have thought 'org chart' was preferred. That's the wording always used in Dilbert. Black Carrot 22:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yes, that's short for an organizational chart. StuRat 00:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

leg-eating

We have words such as carnivorous, omnivorous, icthyophagous etc. Can anyone suggest a plausible similar word that might mean 'leg-eating'? DJ Clayworth 16:50, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Well, one could make up the word crurivorous, I suppose. Google does not show the existence of that word, though. Angr/talk 18:09, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
'Tis a fine word, and will bear repetition. =P —Keenan Pepper 01:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Actual existence isn't an issue here. I just need something plausible-sounding. Thanks. DJ Clayworth 22:43, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I was going to suggest podophagous, or podivorous (even though it's mixing roots, it does have a nice ring to it), and found a Google hit to support it, but then i checked it and it turned out to be "arthro-podivorous" and i was disappointed. I did find this great site though, so all's well that ends well. СПУТНИКССС Р 23:21, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
If you'd rather it had Greek roots, I think skeleophagous is the way to go. Angr/talk 07:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I think podivorous will do nicely. Thanks to all. DJ Clayworth 18:22, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
"I asked my friend if he was podivorous, and he admitted that he was a bit of a 'leg man'." StuRat 00:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Grumble. Should be pedivorous. —Keenan Pepper 03:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Or crurophilous [1] JackofOz 03:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

February 14

"Summer Reunion"

Some friends and I want to name a reunion we're planning for this summer, and we'd like the name to mean "summer reunion" (or something along those lines) in a foreign language but also be aesthetic and relatively short. Any suggestions, polyglots? ;-) Thanks, anon.

How about "Estival Festival" in Latiny English? --Gareth Hughes 01:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I like that! But if you prefer "aesthetic" to "esthetic", then you may also prefer the spelling "Aestival Festival". If you move to French, you can get the same meaning -- still a festival or fair rather than a reunion as such -- with similar repeated letters, but no rhyme: "Fête d'été" (pronounced like "fett-day-tay"). --Anonymous, 02:56 UTC, Feb. 14.

Greek/English word overlap.

In English, "Right" can refer to both the direction (Opposite left), and the idea ("Correct", "Ideal", etc). My question is: Is there any word in Greek, or more importantly a common word that can also do this? Thanx 68.39.174.238 02:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

That relationship is present in many languages. I think the Greek word ορθος (orthos) is what you're looking for. —Keenan Pepper 04:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
That was a rather orthodox answer. It's ironic that left frequently has a much more sinister meaning: [2]. StuRat 00:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Cantador

I've checked a number of Spanish dictionaries and there is no definition for cantador. I think it's a variant of cantante but I'm not sure. Anybody know the meaning? KeeganB

From "cantar" ("to sing") you add the "-dor" making it an occupation and you get "cantador" ("singer"). --BluePlatypus 11:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
My not too big (Prisma) Spanish - Dutch dictionary has the following translations (trans-trans-lated by me into English): Cantante: singer, Cantador: street singer, 'songsinger', Cantaor: flamenco singer, singer of Andalucian folk songs. 'Songsinger' is a literal translation. It suggests a more casual singer of easy tunes. The variation with the dropped 'd' is a consequence of the way the language is pronunced in southern Spain. DirkvdM 12:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Ah. I retract my last answer. I thought he was asking what "cantador" meant, but now that you point it out I realize that it's this subtle difference between 'cantante' and 'cantador' that KeeganB was after. --BluePlatypus 12:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

It's the first time I ever hear the word...maybe because it's spanish from spain... but it seems like its meant to mean singer but the way a child who is learning to speak would say it. --Cosmic girl 14:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

on discourse analysis

Dear Sir: I am writing to inquire if notes about Brown and Yule's book (1983)'discourse analysis' are available in your website. I am now preparing an exam about discourse analysis and I would like to read some introduction notes to the book. Since that book is often chosen as a textbook, I wonder if there are notes (e.g. summary or lecture notes) on that book available on the internet. I tried to search for them on the Wikipedia but I failed to find any. Could you please give me some information about how to get them if you happen to know it?

Thank you for your attention to my inquiry.

Your faithfully, Luise Tsai

Sorry, we don't have notes about textbooks here. This is an encyclopedia. We do, however, have an article on discourse analysis, if that helps. Angr/talk 22:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Dr. vs Dr

Does the contraction of Doctor have a period? If it makes a difference, I live in the southern United States. Black Carrot 22:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

In the U.S. (northern as well as southern), it does. In British English, it does not. Angr/talk 22:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I would expect that only female doctors would have a period. :-) StuRat 23:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Unless they were (pregnant/prepubescent/menopausal/sterile/freakishly skinny). € = ) Black Carrot 00:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I haven't run into a prepubescent female doctor since I was prepubescent myself. StuRat 05:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

A related question. I read a grammar rule in a dusty book a few years ago related to periods and abbreviations. The rule was that the period is only used to represent missing letters. For example, it is not used in Doctor since the first and last letters are present (D****r). This rule allows the differentiation between Fr. (FRiar) and Fr (FatheR). Does this grammar rule have any substance (in British English at least, since that what I try to speak)? --Commander Keane 06:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

There are missing letters in both the 'Doctor' and 'Friar' cases. Are you talking about missing terminal letters?
If that was ever a rule, it has certainly gone by the board now. The abstruseness of the distinction would escape all but the most knowledgeable grammarians. Whether a period is used at the end of an abbreviation comes down to style. Fr and Fr. could both mean either Father or Friar nowadays. JackofOz 07:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
It certainly was, and is a rule in British English that contractions that end in the same letter as the original word do not take a contraction. It isn't just relativley uncommon words such as Dr and Fr - the much more mundane Mr and Mrs are also covered by it. Has it gone by the board now? Well, it may not be widely known but, at the same time, there is still awareness of it in certain circles. Publishing houses are aware of it and often include (and explain it) in style guides. In my experience academics (in the UK) tend to be aware of it and call themselves Dr rather than Dr. with a full stop. The rule is straightforward and regular - but probably has no bearing on US usage. Mattley (Chattley) 09:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

The Oxford Style Manual on the subject:

Oxford Style Manual (2003), 3.2: Punctuation. Traditionally, abbreviations were supposed to end in full stops while contractions did not, giving both Jun. and Jr for Junior, and Rev. and Revd for Reverend. Handy though this rule is, common usage increasingly fails to bear it out: both ed. (for editor or edited by) and edn. (for edition) end in a point; Street is St. with a point to avoid confusion with St for Saint. —Wayward Talk 09:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

February 15

Four and Forty

Does any one know when and why we stopped using the U in Forty? I believe that it was still in use in the late 14th century with Geoffrey Chaucer's Canterbury Tales..

Fourty was displaced by forty in the 18th century. That's a pretty vague time period, I admit, but the best I can do at the moment. JackofOz 00:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Apparently, the "o" and "ou" spellings co-existed for a while. Shakespeare spelled the word "fortie" in Coriolanus. -- Mwalcoff 04:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Siddham script

I want a font for the Siddham script. No luck on google. Where should I be looking? deeptrivia (talk) 02:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

One of the external links in the article is http://www.omniglot.com/writing/siddham.htm which has a link that supposedly includes Siddham in their Mojikyo fonts package. - Taxman Talk 19:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

right and left

Looks like you forgot to ask a question. Try the search box. —Keenan Pepper 05:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Which, interestingly enough, is on the left.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  06:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Oh wow. Maybe that's why they were confused. =P —Keenan Pepper 15:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Spanish ao

Seeing the word "cantaor" made me curious: When Spanish speakers drop the "d" in between vowels, are the wowels still pronounced seperately or are they made into a diphthong? For example, is it can-ta-or or can-taor? KeeganB

They'd still pronounce it as three syllables. (can-ta-or). And the d is sort of dropped but not all the way dropped, sort of. I don't know how to describe it. Proto||type 13:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Well, Spanish d is often changed from a voiced dental plosive to a voiced dental fricative, and it may be even further weakened to some kind of approximant consonant. See Spanish phonology. —Keenan Pepper 15:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Translation

Hi, Can someone please translate the following sentences in German?

Eternal glory awaits you, enlist (in the army) today.

Thanks a million!