Talk:Shotokan
heading MUST be descriptive
listen...logic is simple...
if one is lookin for ucb...i don think he'd like to see the heading UCB ??..
u got the point ??...heading MUST be descriptive... --Arvind Singh
Well, does Shotokan always have "Karate" followed afterwards? You may be right, but we want to be sure. UCB is not the common name and is an acronym, so it would be against the Naming conventions.--Jiang 00:46, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
from VfD
The article on Taikyoku nidan was recently proposed for deletion. As a result of that discussion, there was a strong recommendation to merge each of the very short articles back into this list until such time as this article grows so large that they must be split out. As individual articles, they were felt to lack the context to easily understand them. As part of a single list, they are more likely to be understood. Rossami (talk) 00:19, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Removed "Sensei litterally means 'previous birth'" 先生 literally means "teacher" in Japanese. You can read the seperate kanji as 'previous birth' but in the same way people interpret カラオケ to mean 'tone deaf' it is a misnomer. And literally was spelled wrong OkashinaSakana 09:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Trivia addition
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Ken and Ryu (of Street Fighter) also practice Shotokan? At this point there is only mention of some kid from SF3.
- Ken and Ryu seem to practice Ansatsuken
Can some1 give a list of illegal techniques in shotokan,example:gouges,chin breaking punch... I think 1 is called eitoji or something. Also,there is a double punch attack right. Batzarro 06:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
> 'Illegal' techniques are anything that get you disqualified in competition kumite such as an elbow strike (empi uchi). Excessive force also gets you disqualified. Most of the techniques in Shotokan can be used to do things like chin breaking such as the palm-heal strike.
Ching
Kata
I think that the kata should not be listed in the "beginer, intermideate, advanced" listing, but instead listed all together. This is because of the variation of what is an advanced kata from dojo to dojo. For example, I am accustomed to Bassai-dai, Jion, Jitte, Kanku-dai, Hangetsu, and Empi being brown belt (3rd-1st kyu) katas. However, according to our sensei, some of the black belt katas, such as Gankaku and Tekki-Nidan, are at a brown belt level of difficulty. Because of the differences between styles, I don't think we should specify the levels of katas any farther than 4th kyu. NeoChrono Ryu 18:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this. I am currently doing a project on comparing the differences in kata, and I notice that many katas that some dojos practice are completely left out of others. Many karate students I have talked to believe that certain katas are well above black belt level, while others from different dojos believe they are relatively beginner-level. This is due to the practice of the specific dojos, and it is inaccurate to rank katas based on skill. JoshRG 01:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I am including any relevant kanji and putting all the kata together. I think we should add an alternate kata name section. ron Southwick 03:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I put the kata in the order given in [Sugiyama, S.-25 Shoto-kan Kata (2005) ISBN 0-9669048-0-X ron Southwick 03:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
"Shoto" means "Short Sword" and "karate" means "empty hand". "Sensei" means "the one who has gone before"
That is the way I heard it from my 4th Dan wado karate teacher, who knows enough Japanese that he can understand it as long as the talk is about Karate. It makes sense, since the previous version (before 10:08PM EST (-0500) Feb 16, 2006) did acknowledge that "Shoto" trained his students. How could "Shoto" train his students if that was his name for his poetry, as the previous version had it? That doesn't make sense. "Karate" does not mean "open hand"; I was told it means "empty hand"; i.e., unarmed combat. "open hand" may come from the popular misconception that Karate is usually done with the classic "Karate chop", whereas if you take some Karate it will quickly become obvious to you that closed fists are used most of the time, which (not so obviously) protects the fingers -- my teacher remarked that every time he jams his fingers, he renews his vow to keep his fists closed.
Version dated 18:44, 23 February 2006 137.207.80.130, description: "Added back info removed to conform to a POV, without even the courtesy of a note in the talk page -- marked as POV. See the talk page, please.": It's only right in Wikipedia to present all the possible information.
Translation clarifications
Shoto does NOT mean short sword. It means something along the line of "pine waves". I don't know what sensei directly translates as, but the common usage is simply "teacher". Also, while the name karate does translate as "empty hand" this does not refer to a lack of weapons at all. Karate has always had a number of weapons used in it, and while they are of secondary importance today, this was not always the case. The first meaning of "empty hand" was actually to signify that you were without a sword, since this was the martial art taught to the common people, those who were by law prohibited from carrying a sword. This was actually a secondary meaning, the primary meaning of the term "empty hand" was derived from the Buddhist concept of acting without though, with an "empty" mind. So when in karate we train our hands (and the rest of our bodies) to act without though, we are using "empty hands".
>Shoto does NOT mean short sword. It means something along the line of "pine waves".
-What is your source on that? My source is a karateka who speaks Japanese so well that he can understand it as long as the talk is about Karate. Please supply some kind of justification; it's not right to be removing information otherwise.
"I am often asked how I happened to choose the pen name of Shoto, which became the name of the new Dojo. The word shoto in Japanese means literally "pine waves" and so has no great arcane significance, but I should like to tell why I selected it." Karate-do: My Way of Life by Gichin Funakoshi page 85
-You might check the Wikipedia entry here on "shoto", which confirms that it means "The short sword." A samurai carried two swords, a long one and a short one. In the meantime, I'll ask a Japanese speaker who I see around the office here next time I see him. I ask you to please stop deleting information.
I quoted Funakoshi, what else do you want? Just because those kanji can mean both pine waves and short sword doesn't mean that's what Funakoshi intended. In fact you haven't supplied any evidence at all for your point of view, while I quoted Funakoshi directly. So now it's your turn to corroberate your statement before you start posting it. A kanji can have numerous different meaning. You need to provide evidence that this is what Funakoshi intended. Until then your opinion has no place in a Wikipedia article and I will remove it. Oh and Shoto wasn't the name FOR his poetry, it was the name he used for himself when writing poetry.
-You categorically stated that (copy and paste:) "Shoto does NOT mean short sword", but that turned out to be an alternate meaning. I don't suppose you can mistake the direct quote that you supplied above, however, assuming that you copied it correctly. I checked Amazon and the book does exist; in fact I may order it for my own interest and to check your quote -- and context. Accepting your quote on good faith (but pending verification), I've removed the POV marker and added a note and the book as a reference -- I hope I have copied the reference details correctly.
Fine, that works for me. But I stand by what I said. The "Shoto" in Shotokan does NOT mean short sword. Just because "short sword" and "pine waves" may be homonyms in Japanese doesn't mean that can pick and choose your definitions without considering context.
>The first meaning of "empty hand" was actually to signify that you were without a sword
Makes sense in terms of "unarmed combat".
No, you weren't necessarily unarmed, in fact most of the time you would use whatever weapon was available.
-Yes, due to the sense that if you didn't have a sword, you weren't considered armed.
Armed doesn't mean "having a sword", it means "having a weapon"
-It's a very valid sense that one would be considered unarmed if one wasn't allowed to carry weapons by the government, as during the Okinawan occupation, and had to make do with farming implements or whatever one could grab that was handy -- the presence of which could not be guaranteed.
No, I said you weren't allowed to carry a sword. I did not say you weren't allowed to carry a weapon.
This is rubbish. Before you post a “story from a guy who learned some Japanese” learn to read Hanzi, Kanji or Hanja. Also check the dictionary for the word “homonym”. The Kanji for Shoto is the answer to the story (松涛). The first character is (松). It means pine tree. The second character (涛) is a kanji variant of (濤), which means large wave. The kanji for Shoto, short sword is (小刀). The first character is (小), meaning small. The second character is (刀), meaning blade. No Japanese speaking person would make that mistake. Remove that unnecessary story because there is absolutely no basis for it.
ron southwick
Finally. Thank you ron for finally putting an end to this "short sword" nonsense. But I did use the word homonym correctly. Homonym - One of two or more words pronounced alike but different in meaning or derivation or spelling. As in "shoto - pine waves" and "shoto - short sword"
I do not know if It was you who put that story in. Did not mean to sound nasty. - ron southwick
No, my posts are the ones without a dash or bracket to start them off. With the exception of your post. - Matt
-I thought I would sign in with my user name to avoid further confusion. I do think it's very useful to put that story in, in order to debunk it, taking you people at your word, since I don't read Kanji and haven't read the Funakoshi book yet. But there are a lot of inaccurate stories going around about Karate, and it's important to flag and correct them. I'm putting it back in, clarifying it further to indicate that it is something that needs to be said, in order to be debunked. I don't think there should be any complaint about that.
-I'm glad you didn't mean to sound nasty; you could have fooled me.
Cap j 09:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
To even NOTE that story is wrong. That is like saying, "My Grandma say's TaiChi is better than MMA, so we should note it." This is not even a Karate "urban legend" hence is does not belong in a, hopefully, scholarly document. If it is a classic myth story, like Pinan/Heian means “peaceful mind”, which it does not, then it should be included. I think we should remove it all together. I do like the rewrite at the top, good job on that.-ron southwick Southwick 19:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. So far I know of ONE person who thought that Shoto meant "short sword" and that doesn't justify it being mentioned, especially since it now seems certain that this is incorrect. On another note, what does Heian mean? I also was under the impression that it meant peaceful mind. - Matt
-Just because you haven't heard the story, doesn't mean it's not a Karate urban legend that is out there. I got it from my (3rd Dan at the time) Karate teacher, for whom I have a lot of respect, due to his technical excellence and great personality. Partly due to those reasons, he had helped create about a dozen or more black belts under his instruction by the time he was a 4th Dan (probably more by now), and I am sure there are up to that many people repeating his story, and more repeating the repetitions. The story seems to make a lot of sense, so much that the "Pine waves" story sounds totally out of left field without the documentation. It is stories that seem very believable that make the most persistant urban legends. You may find other people changing the introduction in astonished disbelief of the "pine waves" story. A little repetition never hurt, especially since it gives a chance to add your information about the different Kanji pictograms.
-It should be agreeable to everybody that possibly useful information (correction of popular misconceptions) should not be removed from a public encyclopedia. Doing that might be considered vandalism and I may have to complain to more senior Wikipedians.
-At least try to keep your edits clean if you must continue reversing my additions. This last time you left off the period in the introduction and left the "Notes" header unused, in addition to your first reversal -- that makes your changes look more like vandalism. You'll note that I look back at my edits and correct typos.
First, this is not a “flame war”. This is about the facts. The facts are that Funakoshi, himself, in Karate-Do: My Way of Life, p. 85 sets the record straight. If you have not read that book, then you should not post here. Second, if you cannot speak/read/write the language then how do you really know? I have shown you what the Kanji says. I understand your respect for your friend, that does you credit, but the burden of proof is on you. If you can show “one” piece of documented evidence, from a reputable source of this story, then including it might be appropriate. If not, then it is hearsay. If you read the instructions on what you should post here then you would know hearsay is NOT evidence and is frowned upon. I think you should inform the higher ups because they would not allow it posted. I will continue to remove it until you show evidence. That is not anything against you. This is a knowledge base, not a rumor mill. Debate is encouraged. - ron Southwick 05:16, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
-I was not claiming that hearsay is evidence. If you will read the note carefully you will see that it says quite clearly that the story is hearsay. How can you mistake that? It is a useful function of a public encyclopedia to correct "urban legends", and this is so specialized that you won't find it on Snopes. It would help if you would quote the help page that you are referring to (use two pairs of '[' brackets), although it is not relevant to this because I made no claim that hearsay is evidence. You might read the page Wikipedia:Staying_cool_when_the_editing_gets_hot -- see point 7. at the top. Also, on Wikipedia:Wikiquette, "Principles of Wikipedia etiquette", second last point, it says "Avoid reverts and deletions whenever possible". You will find advice liberally located throughout the Wikipedia help documentation saying not to "edit-war". Not only was my contribution placed in this article first, it was built up from information provided by you and others. Edit-warring and repeated deletion is very much frowned upon. If you think something is *so* objectionable, then you can put a "POV" stamp at the top or elsewhere in the article (use two pairs of '{' braces around it) and the article will be flagged as under dispute. But please do not delete my content and then do that -- my contribution was there first before you came along and the correct thing to do is dispute it, not edit-war over it. Even Matt said (above) he didn't really have a problem with it after I changed it to correction of an urban legend (he put "Fine, that works for me", above). I am not creating a "rumor mill"; I am *correcting* the rumor using information supplied. I don't think it's appropriate for you to be laying down conditions under which I can post here -- you continue to mistake my note as being an assertion rather than a debunking of the "short sword" story when you say "if you cannot speak/read/write the language then how do you really know?".Cap j 23:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC) (The following note was added while I was writing this long paragraph).
CapJ – I would remind you of the protocol here. I refer you to the following information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability If you cannot back-up your story, how is it of any use to anyone? If your friend is a ranked Karate person and does not know this information then you as a student should be worried. I am willing to listen if you can simply give some proof. ron Southwick 23:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
-once again you are failing to understand that I am helping to *clear up* the story, not perpetuate it. Cap j 23:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
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ron Southwick 00:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
-Ron, your sanity is now in question. Once again you are failing to understand that I am helping to *clear up* the story, not perpetuate it.
-it is useful to those who heard the story and need some additional information. Since even my reasonable explanation of this is being ignored, I am once again disputing this article. Please do not delete contributions without going through the protocol and getting all input. I have flagged this to the Wikipedia community and I am contacting my source (although that is actually beside the point, since I don't need *support* for a story that I am helping to *debunk*). User:Cap_j 01:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
RULE NUMBER 2 - 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. Can you verify your story? No? It does not belong here. ron Southwick 01:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
-You are shouting, which I find rather rude, as well as your initiation of an edit war, and the way you are ranting and being short and rude with me. Once again you are failing to understand that I am helping to *clear up* the story, not perpetuate it. However, perhaps a reason for having contacted my source is that maybe I need support that the "short sword" story is a story that is out there. Cap j 01:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
-once again, please stop the edit war while the page is under dispute. You shouldn't be deleting peoples' contributions. Take another look at the article about keeping a cool head when the editing heats up. Cap j 01:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
CapJ, Sorry if you think I am shouting. That was just an edit problem. I am trying to show that this information has nothing to do with Shotokan Karate. When you first entered that info you stated that it was true. After others have pointed out, which you argued about, that you were wrong you now still want your invalid information on this page. Why? You have changed you view? I am not attacking you personally but this is just due to the fact that you and your friend do not know about Shotokan Karate. If you were to do a bit of research you would have found the answer to this very quickly, even without my kanji explanations. I am not saying that you did not hear this. I find it unfortunate that your instructor would say this when it is so widely know. An edit war is not what I wanted. I, as any editor should, just ask for documentation. If you can supply it, according to the rules, then it might be interesting. Let me suggest another option, why don’t you start a Karate Urban Legends topic. I would be more that happy to help you compile and debunk these myths and misinformation. If we work together we might do some damage out there. What do you think? ron Southwick 02:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
-But you still re-deleted the whole note for about the sixth time today instead of first discussing it and working on it as noted in Wikipedia:Wikiquette, "Principles of Wikipedia etiquette", second last point, as well as the "Keeping cool article" point mentioned above. How am I or others supposed to do research on it when information that might clear it up keeps getting deleted from the first place I would look: Wikipedia?
>When you first entered that info you stated that it was true. After others have pointed out, which you argued about, that you were wrong you now still want your invalid information on this page. Why? You have changed you view?
FOR GOD'S SAKE, MAN, I ACCEPTED YOU PEOPLES' KANJI AFTER YOU SHOWED IT TO ME, WITH ONLY ONE PROTEST THAT THERE *HAD* BEEN AN ALTERNATE MEANING TO "SHOTO". FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS (since Wed. March 1st) I HAVE JUST BEEN TRYING TO ADD A CLARIFYING NOTE TO PREVENT FURTHER CONFUSION. And yes, *I* am now shouting. Congratulations. (Mon March 6th, AM).
>There is no story to clear up, it is ignorance. First debate is encouraged. YOU have to show evidence that there is something here. Show me a reference that backs up your story. Will you answer that? This is the debate. Leave the page alone until you show your point. I am listening. ron Southwick 00:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Aside from your arrogance, which I go over on your User talk:Southwick page (it is ludicrous to start an edit war and then lecture *me* that "First debate is encouraged" -- there is a note on the Alerts page that both of us have violated Wikipedia policy), you admit that there is ignorance out there, but you start by saying "There is no story". Your second phrase may not actually contradict your first, but if you admit that there is ignorance out there, why not let the debunking stand? There's nothing wrong with preemptively correcting something that looks threatening, and the "shoto"-"short sword/pine waves" homonym is confusion waiting to happen, even if you haven't heard that it has already happened. Cap j 02:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
As an example of where this preemptive clearing up of possible confusion is useful, back in early September 2005 last year, I was prompted to again wonder what a "chaise lounge" was, when I noticed it mentioned in news articles about New Orleans. Was "chaise" a decorative pattern, like paisley? Wikipedia cleared it up by explaining that the correct term was "Chaise longue" and that the "lounge" use by many English speakers was due to ignorance. From my knowledge of French, I immediately slapped my forehead, and went "Of course!" -- "chaise" means "chair", and "longue", of course, is "long" (although one has to watch that assumption between French and English that words that seem the same mean the same -- famously, "sensible" in French means "sensitive" in English, and francophone people who seem to speak English perfectly can really throw one for a loop by saying "sensible" when they mean "sensitive".)
I suggest that the note in question be shortened to simply say:
"1. Not to be confused with shoto meaning "short sword"; confusion about the derivation of "Shotokan" may occur otherwise. The Kanji for shoto, "pine waves", is (松涛). The first character is (松), which means pine tree. The second character (涛) is a kanji variant of (濤), which means large wave. The Kanji for shoto, short sword, is (小刀). The first character is (小), meaning small, and the second character is (刀), meaning blade. Any literate Japanese reader who saw "松涛" would not mistake it."
Note that I'm even saying "may occur", not "*is* occurring" (for which you insist on documentation), because it is too early and I have not yet heard back from my Karate teacher as to the origin of the story. I don't suppose you can object to the inclusion of *this* note, can you? If so, how? I think it's useful to repeat the Kanji here even though it's at the top of the article and in the shoto article; it's a good idea to bring them close together for comparison.
I'm glad to see that you are making some useful additions. Perhaps you might consider the writing *I* could have been doing instead of all this back-and-forth defending one little miserable note that I wanted to add. Cap j 05:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Even adding a clarification as you wanted to Cap j would not be appropriate. You and the person that told you are the only ones to be confused. That's like an encyclopedia getting a letter from a confused non-english speaking person, then quickly printing: "Ate - past tense of the verb to eat. Not to be confused with the number eight like this one non-english speaking person did." The two "shoto's" don't use the same kanji (you could say they aren't spelled the same) and you and the person that told you appear to be the only one's who have ever heard of this. It deserves absolutely no mention at all in my opinion. - Matt
-This *is* an English encyclopedia, not a Japanese one; at least we *are* in the English area here; we *are* on the ".en" pages here. It is certainly appropriate; I have noticed a book, for example, going over the "false friends" problem between French and English for French speakers learning English, pointing out that "sensible" in French means "sensitive" in English, for example. This is about people speaking a certain language *in* that language, making notes *for the benefit* of those *in the same language* about a *different language*, not writing to an encyclopedia in the *different language* asking for help for *English speakers*. Your logic doesn't match. After giving my example of how useful the "chaise lounge" correction was, I am somewhat at a loss as to what logic would convince you. Well? What would??
>The two "shoto's" don't use the same kanji (you could say they aren't spelled the same)
How do we know that unless we are shown the kanji as I want to do in the little note that I suggest above? (I am very tempted to start shouting here -- you can consider that the previous sentence is written "full caps"). And I was finally actually reduced to shouting -- scroll up to see the "full caps."
How am I or others supposed to do research on it to learn the truth when information that might clear it up keeps getting deleted by you people from the first place we would look: Wikipedia?
How can you deny that the homonym constitutes confusion waiting to happen? Why isn't that logic enough to justify a clarifying note??
Ron said he wanted word from *one* other person. Now *you* are saying that would not be enough. What *would* be enough for you, if logic isn't enough?? I have explained that this is a good 4th-Dan karate teacher (by now) who has helped to create about fifteen black belts (and I have even attempted to contact him as of yesterday, for that matter). Do you need confirmation from every student at his dojo? Do I have to contact every black belt he has created, most of whom have long since moved away, possibly starting their own dojos, and repeating the false story to *their* students, that the story has been repeated to them?? Once again, why do I need further documentation to make a note preempting *possible* confusion??
I repeat, perhaps you might consider the writing *I* could have been doing instead of all this back-and-forth defending one little miserable note that I wanted to add, containing clarifying information that *you people* provided. See the huge section above that is grown out of this. Aren't you being just a little petty about one miserable little clarifying note? Cap j 06:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
It's obvious you're just coming up with any silly excuse you can to continue the pettiness. Is this the honorable way you people are taught to behave in your respective styles of Karate? Cap j 09:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you go over to the Chaise longue article and delete the clarifying note there, on the grounds that it is a clarification for English speakers? Why don't you go over to the library and rip pages out of the Encyclopedia Britannica? Cap j 09:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC) (I was restraining myself from asking that last one for the past day or two, but the last bit of pettiness from "Matt", there, did it).
Pine Waves
I don't see how this information holds any real relevance to shotokan. If the community insists that the information should stay in the article, I at least ask that it be slightly revised so that it flows together with the rest of the writing better. NeoChrono Ryu 16:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Well I think it's important information, but you're right that it could flow better. Maybe in a history section or something. Matt
Shotokan Today
This section was from the point of view of one organization of many. It is limited in scope and HEAVILY biased. This section requires a thoughtful summary of the formation and history of the JKA in Japan up unil the death of Masatoshi Nakayama and then people have to take responsibility for writing about the subsquent splits.