Talk:Belgium

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Dutch or Flemish

Is the language Dutch or Flemish? Even if Flemish is a Dutch dialect, shouldn't it be mentioned in the table?

Flemish is indeed just a dialect. Putting it in the table would also mean you'd have to 1) say Australian English, Canadian English, etc. 2) include other (major) dialects. The official language is Dutch, and is not different from the Dutch spoken in the Netherlands. In spoken language, the pronounciation is different, and there are different words, but it's rather like the English spoken in the UK vs. US . Jeronimo

Thanks. Danny

So what's your opinion on Afrikaans? --Brion VIBBER

Afrikaans is a completely different languages as it has its own grammar, a different vocabulary and its own literature. Afrikaans is clearly derived from Dutch and 'close'; speakers from one understand the other, more or less as German-speakers understand quite some Dutch and vice versa, or as the speakers of the various Scandinavian languages. Rudi

Now that's something different. When Dutch settled in South Africa in the 17th century, the kept their own language, Dutch. However, from that point, the two language evolved concurrently, and in different directions, especially after Dutch control in South Africa ended in 1806 or thereabouts. Calling Afrikaans a dialect now would not be true; it has become a language on its own. It is, however, still possible for Dutch speakers to comprehend the basic language, as many words and constructions are still the same. Jeronimo

Some more info: if you look at http://www.ethnologue.com , you'll find more linguistic details than I can offer you. You'll see that Flemish and Dutch are the same, though there is also a real language called Vlaams (=Flemish) spoken by only 200,000 people. But then again, several of the languages listed here would be classified by me as a dialect; then again I'm not a linguist. Jeronimo

The "Vlaams" Jeronimo speaks of here is more commonly known as "West-Vlaams" or West-Flemish. This is a Dutch dialect that is considered by many to have suficient different traits to be called a language separate from Dutch. AFAIK, it hasn't achieved any official status (yet). -Scipius

This won't change much to the core of the discussion, but to call Flemish a dialect is not really true in my opinion. It's rather a regional variety of Dutch. English speakers in the US, Australia, etc... would't think of English as they speak it in terms of a dialect either, would they? - Guy

Given all of this (and I am certainly no expert) and given that there is an article on Flemish, perhaps some way can be found to integrate it in some way. Danny

No, it's not a real dialect (per ethnologue), you're right. And neither are Australian English, etc. But then again, one would probably call the language spoken in North Brabant (where I live) a dialect, while it is really something between Dutch and Flemish. So it is just a matter of what to call it. Anyway, it would be fair to say that Dutch is an official language of Belgium. Jeronimo

I agree entirely. We just call it "Vlaams", partly to identify ourselves as being Flemings and thus different from the Dutch people. - Guy

The definition given in Netherlandic language is pretty accurate: "Flemish" in terms of language is a collective name for the Netherlandic dialects in Belgium. There is really no uniform Flemish dialect, as the dialect of Limburg can differ significantly from that of West Flanders, even though they may share traits that are not found in northern Dutch. Anyway, nice to see a Belgian show up, how do you like the new layout? -Scipius

It's a big improvement to have the same layout for articles in a "collection", such as countries. The same idea could be followed for other articles with a comparable "status" such as cities, famous people, etc... but I'm aware that's a hell of a job! - [user:G_from_B|Guy]]

There are two meanings of the word dialect, one is the official linguistic meaning, something like 'a child node in a family tree of languages'. In that sense, English is a dialect of Germanic, which is in turn a dialect of the Indo-European language. In that sense, Afrikaans is a dialect of Dutch.

I beg to disagree. This is only a rather theoretic definition. A much more pragmatic definition is that dialects are not formally defined; they don't have a proper grammar + vocabulary + literature. As such, dialects tend to gradually fade over in neighbouring dialects. There are no clear boundaries for the areas of each dialect. As such, dialects are basically mainly different in their spoken expression. Most people speaking a dialect will write 100% of the time in the standard language. As someone said below, a dialect is something ambiguous by nature. Rudi Dierick, 31 July 2004

The other meaning is an informal one, something like 'an un-language, a derivative of the "real" language'. Rudi Dierick

Both meanings of 'dialect' are useless and I would suggest that we refrain from using them, not from the POV of being politically correct (I personally hate PCness), but for the practical reason that the use of the word 'dialect' is ambiguous and that both meanings are not really useful in this discussion.--user:Branko

I guess the correct definition of dialect is "geographical variation of language" - then, everybody speaks a dialect: what happens is that some dialects assume the status of standard languages and so people start saying that who speaks the standard language doesn't speak a dialect and everybody else speaks a dialect, which assumes a degoratory sense then. Flemish is the group of dialects of the Neerlandese language spoken in Belgium. Both Belgium and Netherlands accept the unity of the Neerlandese language spoken in both sides of the border. The dialects of the language are a continuum which does not present a clear limit between what is Flemish and what is Dutch, I guess. The situation is similar to Catalan, which is called Valencian in Valencia, despite the fact that the language is the same and dialectal variation is also a continuum. Marco NevesMarco Neves

Are you sure about this? As far as I understood, Catalan as an idiom is clearly well defined, normalised and standardise"d, and, as a result, quite widely used in education. Flemish, on the contrary, is not used at all in education. Moreover, catalan has a vocabulary which in terms of its linguistic roots is quite different from Spanish; Catalan words having latin roots for 99%, whereas Spanish has some 60% latin roots, some 30% arab, and some 10% visigothic.

E.g.: 'city hall' is in Spanish 'ayuntamiento' (Arab roots) whereas in Catana it becomes 'casa de commu' (strictly latin roots). Rudi

In Flanders, or the Northern part of Belgium, there are linguistically four groups of Dutch dialects. The first one is the dialect West-Vlaams (mainly spoken in West-Vlaanderen). Then you have Oost-Vlaams (spoken in Oost-Vlaanderen). The third dialect is Brabants (spoken in both Brabant and Antwerp). The fourth is Limburgs (spoken in Limburg). The use of the word Flemish for all the Dutch dialects is linguistically incorrect, but is widely used. The official language as you all know is Dutch. The use of these dialects is nowadays declining among youngsters (mainly the vocabulary). But you can still hear trough the accent from which region a person is originating.

Contributed by a non-user, Bert.

Motto

I changed the english translation of Belgium's motto from "Strength lies in unity" to "Unity provides strength", but I wonder if that's a good move. PRO: my translation is closer to the originals (both dutch & french) and is not logically equivalent to the old english translation. CON: the old translation sounds better. -- FvdP 18:20 Sep 13, 2002 (UTC)

I'm the one who originally added the Dutch and English versions of the motto and I took it verbatim from a page on the first site listed under external links, you can find that page here. Make of that what you will, but I would certainly leave it up to a Belgian, if you are indeed one ;) Scipius 14:26 Sep 14, 2002 (UTC)

Being Belgian makes me no expert in translating mottos to english ;-) The link you provide is to the Belgian government's official site, so it's quite authoritative. But this does not mean that the translation it gives is the official translation -- there is perhaps no truly official translation. A bit of search on the web gives a large choice of alternatives: strength lies in unity - strength in unity - strength through union - union (unity) makes strength - in union (unity) there is strength - union (unity) is strength. Why not union makes strength ? (Union looks slightly more relevant than unity; makes is simpler than provides and is a litteral translation of fait/maakt.) -- FvdP 22:58 Sep 17, 2002 (UTC)

Like I said, I'd leave it up to a full Belgian ;). If you want my vote, I would say that the authority of the Belgian government should be enough, but if you insist on something more fitting, then I would go for "Strength through union". It just sound better than "Union makes strength" to my ears. Scipius 20:44 Sep 20, 2002 (UTC)

Brussels-Capital Region vs Brussels Capital-Region

Dhum Dhum (no "-" between capital and region in English)

I have used that because it is so on the site the Brussels capital(-)region. Can be wrong of cource. http://www.brussels.irisnet.be/En/Homeen.htm giskart 11:03 Nov 20, 2002 (UTC)

On the site, I read "Brussels-Capital region" rather than "Brussels capital-region"... It's not a capital-region, it's a region called "Brussels-Capital". (Same in french, I don't know in dutch). FvdP 14:12 Nov 20, 2002 (UTC)

It is confusing. I have looked for the English name here; http://www.brussels.irisnet.be When you put you're pointer on "Brussels" and do not click on it and wait 2 secondes you see "Brussels Capital-Region". I you click on it you go to http://www.brussels.irisnet.be/EN/Homeen.htm and there it is "Brussels-Capital Region". I think "Brussels-Capital Region" is the good one. giskart 15:12 Nov 20, 2002 (UTC)

Restore page, see talk Talk:Fleming ~~Giskart~~ Walter 15:13, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Inquisition

The paragraph about the Inquisition in Belgium is irrelevant and misleading. At the time, both the Netherlands and Belgium were one country under Spanish rule, which is not mentioned, and quite what effect the Inquisition had is not explained ("And, since Belgium was part of Spain at the time, it also had an effect on the local religion there") .. Yes, but WHAT effect?! "This led to the massacre of thousands of Jews, Protestants, and Muslims." - well, in Spain perhaps but not in Belgium/Netherlands, so why's it relevant? Spellbinder 07:51, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Small?

Is "small" POV? Should it be qualified by its area in bracket or rank in terms of area...? - Hemanshu 03:08, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Right, not NPOV according to me as well. Changed it. -- Edcolins 12:26, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

__________

I think that this remark is not true : "For example, a school building in Brussels would be regulated by the regional government of Brussels. The school as an institution however would fall under the regulations of either the Flemish government, if the primary language of teaching is Dutch, or the French Community government, if the primary language is French".

The "French" school buildings are not regulated by the bilingual (French-Dutch) Brussels-Capital Region's Government itself but are regulated by the Société Publique d'Administration des Bâtiments Scolaires, which is a public office dependent of the French-Speaking Community Commission (Commission Communautaire Française) at a time when the school herself as education service is regulated by the French Community Wallonia-Brussels (the French Community is the community of all french-speaking people, Brussels people and Walloon people together). I don't know about the "Flemish" school buildings in Brussels (regulated by the Flemish Community Commission - VGC-Vlaams Gemeenschapscommissie - or by the Flemish Community-Vlaams Gemenschap ?)

Note that the name of 'French Community Wallonia-Brussels' is only a very recent invention which, moreover, is unconstitutional. The proper, official name is 'Communauté française de Belgique' or its English translation (see also all legal texts on this).

The term 'French Community Wallonia-Brussels' is hotly contested by all Flemings (within and outside Brussels) and German-speakers as the term gives the erronuous impression that it refers to the community of all Walloons and all Brussels people, and, related with that, the equally wrong both Wallonia and Brussels are both French-speaking, whereas in fact it only refers to the French-speakers in Brussels and in Wallonia. Anyway, the German-speakers clearly don't feel Walloon at all; they deeply resent being 'dumped' in the Walloon region, and often put forward proposals to get out of it. One might conclude that the term 'French Community Wallonia-Brussels' carries a strongly political, partisan, and slightly imperialistic suggestion.

For or all these reasons, I feel this confusing and non-constitutional term is not appropriate for an encyclopedia as Wikipedia.

Belgium is a curse word

Belgium is a curse word in the radio series and US version of the The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. A famous fictional work.

It seems to be true but I am not very sure of this belongs in the article. Does anybody use the word "Belgium" in the US for a curse word? Walter 14:15, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC) (from Belgium)

Moved to a separate section. -- Edcolins 21:49, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

FYI, see List_of_fictional_curse_words and Fuck. Peak Freak 22:22, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rivers Nitpick

Latest comment: 21 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

As the major rivers Maas and Schelde are given, however these are the Dutch names. To my knowledge Scheldt is the official English name for the river, while the French name Meuse is used in English according to VanDaele. Anyone mind if I edit the right names in. (Also: Sinterklaasdag should be written as one word) First post here, so I thought it might be better if I didn't just barge in and change the main page. -- Jeroen H, 4 May 2004 (Belgium)

What you say is true, so it should be changed. Of course the Dutch and French names should be mentioned. Oh, BTW it's Van Dale. D.D. 20:40, 4 May 2004 (UTC)Reply

Demographics

Latest comment: 21 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Edits by Edcolins in black and edit by in blue (in order to be able to read through it)

I've just reverted edits by 80.200.12.186 who wrote that Dutch-speakers made +/-60% of the population while French-speakers made +/-40% of it. According to the Belgian National Institute of Statistics [1] (in Dutch) or [2] (in French), in 2000, there were 10.280.670 inhabitants in Belgium: 9,4% of them in the Brussels-Capital region, 58,0% in Flanders and 32,6% in Wallonia. It is however impossible to find exactly how many inhabitants of these three regions speak which language (there is no linguistic census anymore in Belgium).

You are correct in that it is impossible to known the exact percentages for French and Dutch-speakers in brussels. However, given that Dutch and French are the official languages in Brussels, it is scientifically fully correct to take into account the widely shared estimates when discussing the languages spoken in belgium. That's why I expressly said '+/- 60' and '+/' 40'. Please, note that that estimate remain well below the official claims of the Flemish authorities. Of course, you will also appreciate that my approach does respect all scientific requirements, as well as the sensitivities of both groups involved. I really don't see why those carefully worded figures (as estimates) should be removed. That would only make the game of the French-speaking nationalists who radically want to remove all reference to the existence of Flemongs in brussels, and all links between them and the other Flemings.

Rudi Dierick, Etterbeek, 31 july 2004

So, any hint about the following questions? (with my guesses in brackets):

How many inhabitants in the Brussels-Capital Region do speak French (85% ?), Dutch (10% ?) or another language (5% ?) as their first language?

Scientific estimates speak of over 20% other languages, between 15 and 18% Dutch speaking and the rest French-speaking. However, more importantly, the notion of 'native tongue' is, as all scientists who studied this problem in general, extremely difficult for migrant populations in varying stages of integration.

Compare that with the 'biased' estimates from political sides: French-speaking nationalists setting the number of French-speakers at up to 90%, Dutch at 10% and all migrants being forcibly assimilated into French-speakers, compared with Flemish nationalists setting the number of Dutch speakers as high as 30% and even more.

How many inhabitants in Flanders do speak Dutch (92% ?), French (5% ? - inter alia in the municipalities with facilities) or another language (3% ?) as their first language?

Again horribly difficult to figure in a scientifically justifiable way. Please do note that the oldest minority language in Flanders is Juddisch (still spoken), followed by ladino (disappeared); other important minority languages (as far as still dominant for private use) are Italian, Polish, Turkish, Amazigh, Arab, Spanish.

As a second remark, one should insist on a more rigourous wording of the question: 'How many inhabitants in Flanders do speak ...' is completely useless. linguists and socio-linguists distinguish following dimensions:

1. Languages spoken with parents and/or brothers and sisters;

2. Languages spoken with other relatives and friends;

3. Languages spoken generally in public life (in casu: in Flanders, 99% of those speaking Polish, italian or Spanish at home use Ducth most of the time in public life);

...

on top of that, scientists also estimate mixed language use, e.g. how many percent of second versus third generation migrants from North-Africa speak their language of origing with their parents versus with their brothers and sisters. Even in these close family circles, the percentages are already significantly different (--> language most commonly used with older people versus with people of similar age or younger).

Rudi Dierick, Etterbeek, 31 july 2004

How many inhabitants in Wallonia do speak French (95% ?) Dutch (1% ?), German (1% ?), or another language (3% ?)?
(Bonus) How many inhabitants do have their father and mother speaking a different language (e.g. a French-speaking father and Dutch-speaking mother or the other way around)?

So (after combination) my guess for first language spoken is 54-55% Dutch-speakers, 38-39% French-speakers and 6-7% other (incl. German).

Here again, your figures are rather worthless as they mix up different categories. As such, I wonder what might be the relevance of your approach in the context of an encyclopaedic work as Wikipedia, given that encyclopaedia always want to respect minimum standards in terms of scientific validity of assertions. Rudi

-- Edcolins 10:34, 23 May 2004 (UTC)Reply

Link to Brabançonne

The link to Brabançonne doesn't show up normally in the infobox. Help needed... --Edcolins 19:42, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)

It's a problem with the Template function in Mediawiki, that used to work. Possibly/hopefully/likely/probably it will be fixed some day (see Template talk:Infobox Countries). -- User:Docu

Excellent.. thanks --Edcolins 20:14, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)

Question

If I click on the link "In detail" in the infobox, I jump to the editing page of Flag of Belgium and not to the article itself. Does anyone know how to fix this? RonaldW 20:20, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)