Talk:Godless: The Church of Liberalism/Archive 1
The Purpose of Talk Pages
I remind anyone who comes here that the point of talk pages is not to espouse a point or beef with the book or article, really, at hand. This is an encylopedia and while the talk pages aren't mean to be NPOV, using them to just make a point is not why they exist. Complain on a forum about the book or go tell your friends how awesome it is. Just don't do it here. --OMG LAZERS 22:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
'Tenets' Citation Requirement
The section discussion the 'tenets' of the book need a citation otherwise, they must go. Any volunteers? Citing the book would be simple enough if done properly. An online prof would be better. --OMG LAZERS 22:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Relevant Poem and Quote
So how does this poem apply to Ms Coulter's work:
First dentistry was painless.
Then bicycles were chainless,
Carriages were horseless,
And many laws enforceless.
Next cookery was fireless,
Telegraphy was wireless,
Cigars were nicotineless,
And coffee caffeineless.
Soon oranges were seedless,
The putting green was weedless,
The college boy was hatless,
The proper diet fatless.
New motor roads are dustless,
The latest steel is rustless,
Our tennis courts are sodless,
Our new religion--godless.
Or this quote from G. K. Chesterton :
"But the new rebel is a Sceptic, and will not entirely trust anything. He has no loyalty; therefore he can never be really a revolutionist. And the fact that he doubts everything really gets in his way when he wants to denounce anything. For all denunciation implies a moral doctrine of some kind; and the modern revolutionist doubts not only the institution he denounces, but the doctrine by which he denounces it."
"Thus he writes one book complaining that imperial oppression insults the purity of women, and then he writes another book (about the sex problem) in which he insults it himself. He curses the Sultan because Christian girls lose their virginity, and then curses Mrs. Grundy because they keep it. As a politician, he will cry out that war is a waste of life, and then, as a philosopher, that all life is waste of time. A Russian pessimist will denounce a policeman for killing a peasant, and then prove by the highest philosophical principles that the peasant ought to have killed himself. A man denounces marriage as a lie, and then denounces aristocratic profligates for treating it as a lie. He calls a flag a bauble, and then blames the oppressors of Poland or Ireland because they take away that bauble. The man of this school goes first to a political meeting, where he complains that savages are treated as if they were beasts; then he takes his hat and umbrella and goes on to a scientific meeting, where he proves that they practically are beasts."
"In short, the modern revolutionist, being an infinite sceptic, is always engaged in undermining his own mines. In his book on politics he attacks men for trampling on morality; in his book on ethics he attacks morality for trampling on men. Therefore the modern man in revolt has become practically useless for all purposes of revolt. By rebelling against everything he has lost his right to rebel against anything."
( Orthodoxy, Ch. 3) [1]
- Sounds like the sort of thing Coulter would say, if she were more eloquent (and a lot smarter) than she is. Chesterton, like C.S. Lewis, had little patience for people who used falsehoods to attack goodness. But both were far more polite than Coulter, who is so shrill and combative I wonder if she feels she's fighting a lost cause. --Uncle Ed 00:39, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Duplicated text from ID
This is identical to the 2nd paragraph of Intelligent design, except for the first word:
- The overwhelming majority[1] of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience[2] or junk science. [3] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[4]
No need to have the same text in two places. Better to link and/or summarize.
Anyway, what specifically did Coulter say about evolution? Shouldn't we quote the author before refuting her views? --Uncle Ed 17:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Motivation of critics
Cut from anti-evolution section:
- Coulter's reliance on controversial sources for science prompted critics of the intelligent design movement to analyze her claims.
Is this the reason critics decided to speak out? Her reliance on controversial sources? Who says it's this, as opposed to the usual reason that her critics simply disagree with her? --Uncle Ed 17:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- It said in the cites provided in the article you deleted: PZ Myers and Ian Musgrave. Try reading them before deleting them next time. There's about a dozen other critics of ID and dozens of Coulter who also say the same thing. FeloniousMonk 19:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Where in those cites? Can you quote them? Next time discuss the problems you see in other people's edits before reverting them. Please give me the same courtesy you demand of me. --Uncle Ed 19:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Can't you read on your own? Do you go to the library and demand that the librarian find the ref you need? Please, learn how to do your own research, complete research, not just skimming a page. •Jim62sch• 20:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What does this mean?
- restore accurate supported version. Ed's was highly POV and full of characterizations and misspellings
You frequently used the term "POV" as an adjective without explaining what you mean. Please explain, don't just delete stuff you don't like (as Dr. C. says). --Uncle Ed 19:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Describing PZ Myers as a "blogger" is evidence of Ed Poor's continued promotion of his "edit first, research later" program. --ScienceApologist 19:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ed, you're again resorting to edit warring. Are you sure this is how you want to contribute to Wikipedia?
- The content you're pushing here is POV (and you and I know exactly that is and what I meant, so don't waste your time and mine), factually incorrect, imcomplete and full of misspellings. You may want to rethink your way of contributing, your being disruptive and trollish. FeloniousMonk 19:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- No, you and Joshua are once again resorting to edit warring. You know I can't out-gun you, and you refuse to explain your mass reverts. You know that Wikipedia:Mass revert is not a policy, but you act as though it is.
- Please discuss your changes! You can start by telling what you meant by "highly POV" instead of (1) refusing to discuss and (2) changing the subject to ad hominem attacks on me. I've asked you more than 1 dozen times to explain what you mean by this; I can't read your mind.
- Please explain this, and/or point out a factual error or misspelling. No need to revert the whole thing 3 times! Only edit warriors do mass reverts without explanation. --Uncle Ed 19:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Stop trolling Ed. You've become disruptive. FeloniousMonk 19:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ed, FM is merely being factual. Given that you've been on Wiki since December 2001, I'm pretty sure that by now you know what highly POV means, know that your edits did in fact fit that criteria, and know that you are engaging in trolling and disruption. Fortunately, SA and FM caught your POV edits before an unsuspecting reader believed that what you wrote was accurate. And that, really, is the key here -- stop thinking about Ed Poor, think about the average reader. •Jim62sch• 20:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Please stop changing the subject from my request to discuss your changes, and please stop making personal attacks. What "POV content" am I pushing? What point of view am I trying to make the article endorse?
- The fact that you refuse to answer proves that you cannot answer. You are simply making up ad hominem charges to support your own rv. Everyone sees through this. --Uncle Ed 19:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ed, you know you're not that clueless (as do I), so stop wasting your own time. Coulter says she turned to tutors in writing about evolution in the book: "I couldn't have written about evolution without the generous tutoring of Michael Behe, David Berlinski, and William Dembski..." Behe, Dembski and Berlinski are the leading ID proponents. All are fellows of the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. Intelligent design is rejected by the scientific community: The AAAS is the largest association of scientists in the U.S. representing some 120,000 members firmly rejects ID. More than 70,000 Australian scientists and educators condemn teaching of intelligent design in school science classes. More than 60 List of statements from scientific professional organizations reject intelligent design. the National Science Teachers Association representing 55,000 science teachers and administrators: "intelligent design is not science". The National Academy of Sciences says that intelligent design is not science. So ID is controversial and Coulter's reliance on ID proponents to tutor her on science and evolution means she's relied on controversial sources.
- Like she says: "I couldn't have written about evolution without the generous tutoring of Michael Behe, David Berlinski, and William Dembski..." FeloniousMonk 20:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- In other words, you admit you are pushing your anti-ID point of view into the Godless article? Thanks, I thought so, but that's not what I asked you.
- Now about my unanswered questions: (1) what POV do you say I am pushing, and in what way have any of my edits pushed it? (2) What factual errors did I make? (3) Any misspellings you'd care to point out? And why not simply correct them graciously instead of engaging in a mass revert? --Uncle Ed 20:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Ed, as explained to you on Talk:Creation-evolution controversy, it is up to you to list your proposed edits and rationale when there is a dispute and you wish to see a different version of the article. Your practices of editting the article and then, when editors revert your changes for various reasons, whining about "mass reverts" belies the fact that many editors have worked on an aritcle before you arrived and that you aren't owed an explanation to your satisfaction if you cannot provide an explanation of your own. I even demonstrated to you how to make a clear an concise explanation of your edits which you actively ignored. Pot calling the kettle black indeed! --ScienceApologist 20:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ed, are you intentionally missing the gravitas of this quote "I couldn't have written about evolution without the generous tutoring of Michael Behe, David Berlinski, and William Dembski..."? Besides, if Coulter can't write about evolution without the tutoring of those three pseudo-scientists, she wouldn't really be very bright to begin with, would she? But, as we all know, she is very savvy, and the reality is that she wanted to present a certain view, a very POV view of evolution -- the DI view. Like it or not, that needs to be clearly spelled out in the article. •Jim62sch• 20:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Analysis of Ed's changes
Ed
Coulter devotes approximately one-third of the book to criticizing evolution, which, Coulter brands "Darwinism." [5]
Blagger Arturick wrote: "Anyone going to read "Godless" expecting a hysterical, ignorant assault on Darwin's Theory of Evolution, replete with Genesis quotes, will be disappointed. Shockingly, she lays out a case against evolution that relies heavily on logic, information presented by scientists, and examination of the motives and history of Darwinian scientists." [6]
Blogger PZ Myers, to Coulter's claim that there is no evidence for evolution, points to the scientific literature that contains hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of articles about various aspects of evolution. He also argues Coulter has it backwards: The issue is not whether there is evidence that supports evolution, but whether there is evidence that is explained by evolution, since theories are explanations for data.[7] Myers also argues that readers should disregard her anti-evolution arguments on the grounds that she herself is not a scientist, pointing out that Coulter turned to tutors in writing this section of the book: "I couldn't have written about evolution without the generous tutoring of Michael Behe, David Berlinski, and William Dembski..." [8]
Original
Coulter devotes approximately one-third of the book to polemical attacks on evolution, which, in keeping with the religious right, Coulter terms "Darwinism." Admittedly having no background on the science of the subject herself, Coulter says she turned to tutors in writing this section of the book: "I couldn't have written about evolution without the generous tutoring of Michael Behe, David Berlinski, and William Dembski..." Behe, Dembski and Berlinski are all fellows of the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement.
The overwhelming majority[9] of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience[10] or junk science. [11] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[12]
Coulter's reliance on controversial sources for science prompted critics of the intelligent design movement to analyze her claims. PZ Myers, to Coulter's claim that there is no evidence for evolution, points to the scientific literature that contains hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of articles about various aspects of evolution. He also argues Coulter has it backwards: The issue is not whether there is evidence that supports evolution, but whether there is evidence that is explained by evolution, since theories are explanations for data.[13]
- ^ See: 1) List of scientific societies rejecting intelligent design 2) Kitzmiller v. Dover page 83. The Discovery Institute's Dissent From Darwin Petition has been signed by about 500 scientists. The AAAS, the largest association of scientists in the U.S., has 120,000 members, and firmly rejects ID. More than 70,000 Australian scientists and educators condemn teaching of intelligent design in school science classes. List of statements from scientific professional organizations on the status intelligent design and other forms of creationism.
- ^ National Science Teachers Association, a professional association of 55,000 science teachers and administrators in a 2005 press release: "We stand with the nation's leading scientific organizations and scientists, including Dr. John Marburger, the president's top science advisor, in stating that intelligent design is not science
- ^ "Biologists aren’t alarmed by intelligent design’s arrival in Dover and elsewhere because they have all sworn allegiance to atheistic materialism; they’re alarmed because intelligent design is junk science." H. Allen Orr. Annals of Science. New Yorker May 2005.Devolution—Why intelligent design isn't. Also, Robert T. Pennock Tower of Babel: The Evidence Against the New Creationism.
- ^ National Academy of Sciences, 1999 Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition
- ^ Coulter devotes the last 80 pages to her full-scale attack on the theory of evolution and the utter dishonesty of what she calls the "Darwiniacs" Ann Coulter: Exposing Liberalism's Theology of Lies Phil Brennan, NewsMax.com. Tuesday, June 6, 2006
- ^ One More Time: Coulter, Godless, and Evolution Jun 12 2006 05:07 PM
- ^ Ann Coulter: No evidence for evolution? PZ Myers. Pharyngula, scienceblogs.com June 18, 2006
- ^ John M. Lynch in his Stranger Fruit science blog
- ^ See: 1) List of scientific societies rejecting intelligent design 2) Kitzmiller v. Dover page 83. The Discovery Institute's Dissent From Darwin Petition has been signed by about 500 scientists. The AAAS, the largest association of scientists in the U.S., has 120,000 members, and firmly rejects ID. More than 70,000 Australian scientists and educators condemn teaching of intelligent design in school science classes. List of statements from scientific professional organizations on the status intelligent design and other forms of creationism.
- ^ National Science Teachers Association, a professional association of 55,000 science teachers and administrators in a 2005 press release: "We stand with the nation's leading scientific organizations and scientists, including Dr. John Marburger, the president's top science advisor, in stating that intelligent design is not science
- ^ "Biologists aren’t alarmed by intelligent design’s arrival in Dover and elsewhere because they have all sworn allegiance to atheistic materialism; they’re alarmed because intelligent design is junk science." H. Allen Orr. Annals of Science. New Yorker May 2005.Devolution—Why intelligent design isn't. Also, Robert T. Pennock Tower of Babel: The Evidence Against the New Creationism.
- ^ National Academy of Sciences, 1999 Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition
- ^ Ann Coulter: No evidence for evolution? PZ Myers. Pharyngula, scienceblogs.com June 18, 2006
Analysis
(Since Ed has not chosen to explain his edits, I am forced to speculate)
Opening:
Ed changed "Coulter devotes approximately one-third of the book to polemical attacks on evolution, which, in keeping with the religious right, Coulter terms "Darwinism." to "Coulter devotes approximately one-third of the book to criticizing evolution, which, Coulter brands "Darwinism." [1]"
Presumably he takes issue with the term "polemic" and the phrase "in keeping with the religious right".
So is her work "criticism" ("The action of criticizing, or passing judgement upon the qualities or merits of anything; esp. the passing of unfavourable judgement; fault-finding, censure." (OED[2]) or is it a "polemic" ("A controversial argument or discussion; argumentation against some opinion, doctrine, etc.; aggressive controversy; in pl. the practice of this, esp. as a method of conducting theological controversy: opposed to irenics. (OED [3])
Coulter has no background in biology, and displays a deep ignorance of the subject in her work. Not only is she not qualified to criticise the work, she also doesn't analyse it - instead, she borrows freely from other sources (attributed or unattributed). No, this isn't an "analysis", it's a "controvertial argument". Polemic is more accurate (and thus more NPOV) than criticism.
Ed move "Admittedly having no background on the science of the subject herself, Coulter says she turned to tutors in writing this section of the book: "I couldn't have written about evolution without the generous tutoring of Michael Behe, David Berlinski, and William Dembski..." Behe, Dembski and Berlinski are all fellows of the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement." further down the page and deletes "The overwhelming majority[6] of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience[7] or junk science. [8] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[9]"
This is information that is useful to the reader. The fact that she has no background in the subject and that she admits that she was "tutored" by Behe, Berlinski and Dembski is crucial to a fair and unbiased presentation of the information. This is useful information (from Coulter herself), and does not belong buried as a "critics say"
While it isn't essential (from the point of view of NPOV) to include the explanation of who these people are, it's very useful to the average reader who doesn't want to have to click through the links and read three articles, and then have to click through links on those articles to figure out what intelligent design is). So this is information useful to the reader.
Ed then adds: "Blagger Arturick wrote: "Anyone going to read "Godless" expecting a hysterical, ignorant assault on Darwin's Theory of Evolution, replete with Genesis quotes, will be disappointed. Shockingly, she lays out a case against evolution that relies heavily on logic, information presented by scientists, and examination of the motives and history of Darwinian scientists." [2]"
I'm not sure what he means by "blagger" means, but since Ed reinserted it I presume it isn't a typo for blogger. I'm not sure what makes him/her a reliable or notable source - presumably Ed will explain this.
He then replaces "Coulter's reliance on controversial sources for science prompted critics of the intelligent design movement to analyze her claims. PZ Myers, to Coulter's claim that there is no evidence for evolution, points to the scientific literature that contains hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of articles about various aspects of evolution. He also argues Coulter has it backwards: The issue is not whether there is evidence that supports evolution, but whether there is evidence that is explained by evolution, since theories are explanations for data.[10] In response to Coulter's citing of Jonathan Wells' arguments concerning peppered moth evolution, Ian Musgrave, argues that Coulter misrepresents the significance of the peppered moth experiments, makes a number of factual errors, and a "wildly ignorant misrepresentation of evolution."[11]"
with
"Blogger PZ Myers, to Coulter's claim that there is no evidence for evolution, points to the scientific literature that contains hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of articles about various aspects of evolution. He also argues Coulter has it backwards: The issue is not whether there is evidence that supports evolution, but whether there is evidence that is explained by evolution, since theories are explanations for data.[3] Myers also argues that readers should disregard her anti-evolution arguments on the grounds that she herself is not a scientist, pointing out that Coulter turned to tutors in writing this section of the book: "I couldn't have written about evolution without the generous tutoring of Michael Behe, David Berlinski, and William Dembski..." [4]"
Characterising University of Minnesota, Morris associate professor of biology as "blogger PZ Myers" is clearly misleading, apparently intentionally. It appears to be calculated to balance "blagger Arturick" with "blogger PZ Myers". Myers is a notable writer on the subject, and is well qualified to speak on the matter. This change is very misleading. Guettarda 21:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- All that to say that his edits were seriously POV? ;) •Jim62sch• 00:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Proving her theory
by editing this bage so biasedly in favour of views against this ladies views dont you simply further enforce her views? Proving that liberalism is just as fanatical as a religion. tsk, tsk. (an unsigned comment from Is04qoe (talk · contribs))
- Wikipedia can be edited by anyone. If you have something useful to add, let us know. --Zagsa 00:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Amazon listing
This is not a classified ad, and I don't think it's appropriate for us to be linking to the book's Amazon listing. I'm gonna go ahead a get rid that link, but if you all think its really alright to have that there, go ahead and put it back.B1oody8romance7 06:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Reading It Now
I'm reading this book now, and I must say that its Wikipedia article seems more like a collection of gripes from bruised victims than an article about the book. Shouldn't it maybe be renamed or something? Or at least if somebody voices criticism, shouldn't the criticism be preceded by a long quotation or an honest summary of what Ann Coulter said about the subject? Lou Sander 23:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Quotes
- "Liberals love to boast that they are not 'religious,' which is what one would expect to hear from the state-sanctioned religion. Of course liberalism is a religion. It has its own cosmology, its own miracles, its own beliefs in the supernatural, its own churches, its own high priests, its own saints, its own total worldview, and its own explanation of the existence of the universe. In other words, liberalism contains all the attributes of what is generally known as 'religion.'" [4]
- Though liberalism rejects the idea of God and reviles people of faith, it bears all the attributes of a religion. In Godless, Coulter throws open the doors of the Church of Liberalism, showing us its sacraments (abortion), its holy writ (Roe v. Wade), its martyrs (from Soviet spy Alger Hiss to cop-killer Mumia Abu-Jamal), its clergy (public school teachers), its churches (government schools, where prayer is prohibited but condoms are free), its doctrine of infallibility (as manifest in the "absolute moral authority" of spokesmen from Cindy Sheehan to Max Cleland), and its cosmology (in which mankind is an inconsequential accident). [5]
Would it be appropriate to add either of the two passages above to the article? If they are relevant, would it be better to add them as direct quotations from the Amazon Book Description (Editorial Review) or to summarize them? The latter would look nice with bullet points. --Wing Nut 14:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- I like 'em as they are, and I think it would be good to put 'em in. IMHO, one reason that there's so much "anti" stuff in articles like this is that there's a lot of work in finding and posting stuff that's actually in the book, or that summarizes it, while it's a flick of the keyboard to react to stuff that jabs one's sacred cows. Lou Sander 14:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- No, actually it's just that Coulter substitutes rhetoric and cyphers for broader understandings and ideas making any covering of her writing an exercise in decoding and providing balance by means of the majority viewpoints on those topics. Favoring the narrow viewpoint of the author here over the broader perspective flies in the face of the WP:NPOV policy. 02:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm reading the book right now, and it's extremely easy to read and understand. The author is very direct in making her points, and she's a master of logical argument. It shouldn't be a big challenge to put what's in her book in an article about her book. It just takes a little work. Lou Sander 02:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- Being easy to read and understand is not really the point. I've read it as well and representing her viewpoint in the article is not difficult. The issue is that in her book she demonstrably misrepresents many significant points and ideas, particularly about science. That requires balancing statements that represent the majority viewpoint, in this case the scientific community's. Considering she freely admits she relied upon for her understanding of science three individuals who have made careers misrepresenting science in the furtherance of their own religious pov, Dembski, Berlinski, and Behe, it's not surprising really. FeloniousMonk 03:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, by all means, place them in the article. FeloniousMonk 02:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Science and intelligent design
The last paragraph of this section is, IMHO, a solid presentation of the views of those who disagree with Coulter. Such things, IMHO, can legitimately be placed in articles like this. Here it is:
Coulter's reliance on controversial sources for science prompted critics of the intelligent design movement to analyze her claims. PZ Myers, against Coulter's claim that there is no evidence for evolution, points to the scientific literature that contains hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of articles about various aspects of evolution. He also argues Coulter has it backwards: The issue is not whether there is evidence that supports evolution, but whether there is evidence that is explained by evolution, since theories are explanations for data.[5] In response to Coulter's citing of Jonathan Wells' arguments concerning peppered moth evolution, Ian Musgrave argues that Coulter misrepresents the significance of the peppered moth experiments, makes a number of factual errors, and a "wildly ignorant misrepresentation of evolution."[6] James Downard criticized Coulter's favoring of secondary sources over primary sources, saying "she compulsively reads inaccurate antievolutionary sources and accepts them on account of their reinforcement of what she wants to be true."[7]
The next-to-last paragraph, however, doesn't refer to Godless, but to legitimate science's view of intelligent design. Here it is:
The scientific community[1] views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience[2] or junk science. [3] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[4]
While the shorter paragraph is well sourced, it doesn't have much to do with Godless, except maybe in a very indirect way. I think it should be deleted or, even better, moved to another article, leaving the much stronger next paragraph to present the views of Coulter's critics.
What do others think? (About the paragraph, please, not about the controversial Coulter or her views.) Lou Sander 22:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
- Since Coulter advocates for ID and ID proponents claim ID to be legitimate science while the scientific community rejects that claim, then the NPOV policy requires that both sides be presented: "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one." Also, since the scientific community says ID is pseudosience, WP:NPOV has a specific clause for dealing with pseudoscience, NPOV: Pseudoscience: "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." The paragraph is relevant and necessary and will need to remain in the article for it to comply with WP:NPOV. FeloniousMonk 02:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Is it possible to mention Coulter's POV in the article?
- Coulter regards support for evolution as dogmatic, even unscientific, a point of view pointedly opposed by critics of her book.
- Does Coulter say that evolution is scientifically incorrect, i.e., does she make a "scientific critique" of it? Or does she consider support for it to be dogma? --Wing Nut 15:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Also, Coulter seems to be branding the theory of evolution as pseudoscientific, although no one in the scientific community supports her POV:
- There is no evidence that it is true. The fossil record contradicts it, and it is a theory that cannot be disproved. Whatever happens is said to "prove" evolution. This is the very definition of a pseudoscience, like astrology. [6]
- Of course, I'm quoting from a blog (which is quoting Coulter), so I don't know if this is really in the book. Can I put this in the article anyway? --Wing Nut 15:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- No, we shouldn't fall into the same trap as Coulter with secondary sources. Direct quotes from the book are better. FeloniousMonk 15:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- How about a direct quote from an interview?
- Cybercast News Service: Most people consider evolution to be a branch of science, or at least a scientific theory, yet in "Godless," you refer to it as a "cult" and a "fetish." What is your basis for calling it that?
- Ann Coulter: There is no evidence that it is true. The fossil record contradicts it, and it is a theory that cannot be disproved. Whatever happens is said to "prove" evolution. This is the very definition of a pseudoscience, like astrology. (Of course, I would say that. I'm just a Capricorn, aren't I?) [7]
- How about a direct quote from an interview?
Critique of Evolution
Full Disclosure: I've read the "cosmology" section of the book, and I'm kind of familiar with her arguments. I've also read Origin of Species, but it was a long time ago. I still have both books. Basically, I'm an open-minded skeptic about both evolution and "intelligent design," or whatever it is. I don't love Coulter and I don't hate her, and I try very hard to be fair to her. I think she makes strong arguments, and the other side does, too. I'm familiar with the concept of odium theologicum and I think it swirls around Coulter (is she a shiite or a sunni?). My opinion about controversial matters is that the article is about a book, and not about its critics (or even about the author). Nevertheless, the critics probably ought to be heard. This isn't their soapbox, though, and their voices should be subordinate to hers, even though their position is more respectable than hers, is well-stated and sourced, etc.
What I think this section should look like is this:
The heading, followed by a brief, fair description of what the author says in the book. (No "this idiot says, against all scientific evidence..." stuff, please. That comes later.)
Some number of subsections, organized by topic or by the chapters in the book. (My own preference is by chapters. There are three of them, and it divides stuff up nicely.) As much as is reasonable, the subsections should include quotes from the book. It's OK to have the outrageous ones, but they're only part of the story.
Response of critics, where the arguments for the other side are presented. It might start with a summary of the conflict between the notions of evolution and "ID," or whatever it is. Please, no strong words just yet. Then the response of the critics should come. It should be well-sourced (but I don't see any problems with that--her ideas have plenty of articulate published opponents). It would be great if it could be organized along the same lines as the above subsections. It can be as strong and as shrill as it ought to be. Whatever its nature, we should guard against the response being longer than the corresponding material about the book. It should probably be less shrill than the shrill stuff in the book, since it's from real science and doesn't need shrillness for effect.
That's just my two cents worth. Lou Sander 16:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- All of that sounds reasonable. It would help if I actually started reading the book, instead of looking up quotes on the web with a search engine. --Wing Nut 16:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Origin of Species has little to nothing to do with Coulter's actual arguments; as mentioned in the article already she conflates the current understanding of evolution, the modern synthesis, with natural selection, terming it "Darwinsim." If you fail to understand this simple distinction, I doubt your proposed rewrite will be particularly accurate. FeloniousMonk 17:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wingnut (accidentally) hits upon an important issue. While it's good to have a read a book about which you are writing, it's a little but incidental - we are supposed to rely on secondary sources, not primary ones. We need to keep that in mind. Guettarda 17:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Having thought about this, Guettarda is right, we are supposed to rely on secondary sources. FeloniousMonk 17:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The End of Faith?
Is this book written partly as a response to Sam Harris's The End of Faith?
There are a number of similarities between the two, I won't bother listing them but suffice to say they come at similar things from radically different points of view if what I've read about her book is corect - anything in the index about him? Anything specific? This book was written about two years after his, which made quite a splash itself, so it would make sense if she wrote about it. I may very well be wrong, though!
Evolution as dogma
- "It's very important for the liberal clergy to force small school children to believe in a discredited mystery religion from the 19th century -- evolution -- in order to prepare them to believe in the nonexistence of God, one of the main goals of the American public education system." [8]
This is Coulter's POV, not mine. Why delete it (twice) from the article?
Her point is that Liberalism (which she regards as a "religion" or "church") uses government schools to indoctrinate schoolchildren into atheism. Shouldn't readers know this is her political belief about Liberalism and its support for evolution?
If someone disagrees with her, shouldn't we balance her pov with their pov? --Wing Nut 14:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe you should read the edit summary that KC used when she removed the quote. Using long quotes to illustrate AC's position isn't the same as writing an encyclopaedia article about the topic based on secondary sources. Quotes should be used sparingly, and should used to illustrate a point, not to make a point. Find a secondary source that discusses AC's position, and reference it while discussing her position. Don't stick a quote in and say that you are presenting her POV. That isn't how you write an encyclopaedia article. Guettarda 14:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, okay. I was wondering what was meant above by "secondary sources". --Wing Nut 14:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
"Creatonist arguments against evolution"
Some edits to this article seem to characterize classic arguments for evolution as arguments against it. From the article:
To back her opinion, Coulter refers to examples used in long-standing creationist arguments against evolution (emphasis mine), such as Galapagos finches, the peppered moth, Piltdown man, Archaeoraptor, Haeckel's drawings, and the Miller-Urey experiment, presenting them as flawed, discredited, or made-up evidence and stating arguments to support her case.
The importance of the arguments cited is in their longstanding use as arguments for evolution, not in their recent citation in arguments against it (follow the links and see). IMHO, citing them as the latter distorts the meaning of the sentence, which is that Coulter backs her argument by citing flaws in important arguments for evolution. Maybe someone can find a way to fix the problem. (One way would be to delete the word "creationist" and to replace "against" with "for.") Lou Sander 16:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- The term you're perhaps looking for is examples used in support of evolution which are critiqued by opponents of evolution. --Wing Nut 17:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- All of the listed subjects are primarily used by creationist polemics. Within the scientific community there's been little need for arguments for evolution or compelling examples thereof for many decades; evolution has been widely accepted as a valid theory since long before the 1940's. Meaning these haven't been used as significant arguments for evolution in the last 50 years or so. FeloniousMonk 17:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- If ever. Guettarda 17:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Fel, you might be stretching things. I have been seeing most of the listed subjects as examples of evolution all my adult life. One of Coulter's objections to them is that some of them are still used in textbooks today, even though possibly no longer valid. Also, when she plainly states them as arguments for evolution, it isn't quite appropriate to twist what she is saying by inserting words that distort it, or that editorialize her arguments with arguments from the other side. (Also, Miller-Urey was from 1953.) Lou Sander 18:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Aren't we getting a bit off-topic here? Coulter's main point is that Liberalism (or possible materialism itself) is tantamount to a religion; and that powerful political forces are spreading it; in other words that atheism is beating religion at its own game.
- Whether it's legitimate for Liberals or Atheists to do so isn't really the question. Coulter simply asserts they are doing so. And the only reason she brings up the Theory of Evolution is that it's a "religious" doctrine spread by liberal "clergy", i.e., public schoolteachers.
- If anyone (other than Wikipedians) is arguing against Coulter's position, such an argument would be relevant: a denial that Liberalism is akin to religion; or a denial that arguments for evolution are dogmatic. --Wing Nut 19:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wing, I don't think we're off topic. The topic is the twisting of plain words by inserting anti-creationist material where it doesn't really belong, where creationist arguments were used only peripherally if at all, etc. Lou Sander 22:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Lou, Piltdown man used in textbooks? How many schools do you know that use pre-WWII textbooks? Guettarda 21:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Um, that's why I said "most." Chapter 9 features detailed discussions of the history of "all" of these examples as "proofs" of Darwin's theory, of the subsequent scientific discrediting of "many or most" of them, and the recent (21st century) use of "several" of the discredited ones in scientifically respectable journals and textbooks. The book does not assert that Piltdown man is used in the 21st century, but cites it as something that the scientific community once embraced as proof of Darwin. Lou Sander 22:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- That's called equviocation. We don't use equivocation writing an encyclopedia, and we're certainly not going to find equivocation or special pleadings compelling for altering content here. The passage in the article is accurate as it is written. FeloniousMonk 22:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Fel, you could help us all, and especially me, by pointing out the equivocation. The passage is "accurate," but it uses words and ideas unrelated to the subject or thrust of the main ideas of the passage. In doing so it alters the meaning of the passage and twists the ideas of the author. (It's not very professional to do that, IMHO.) Coulter uses the topics referred to in the sense that they were long used to prove Darwin; she's not in any meaningful way promoting the ideas of wacky creation scientists. Lou Sander 22:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- That's called equviocation. We don't use equivocation writing an encyclopedia, and we're certainly not going to find equivocation or special pleadings compelling for altering content here. The passage in the article is accurate as it is written. FeloniousMonk 22:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Um, that's why I said "most." Chapter 9 features detailed discussions of the history of "all" of these examples as "proofs" of Darwin's theory, of the subsequent scientific discrediting of "many or most" of them, and the recent (21st century) use of "several" of the discredited ones in scientifically respectable journals and textbooks. The book does not assert that Piltdown man is used in the 21st century, but cites it as something that the scientific community once embraced as proof of Darwin. Lou Sander 22:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like you two are talking past each other. I'm guessing Felonious objects to Coulter's book because Coulter sides with design theorists against evolution. You and I (or is it just me?) see Coulter as branding support for evolution as tantamount to religious or anti-religious dogma.
I see these as two separate issues:
- Coulter says evolution is a sort of dogma, spread by the "Church of Liberalism".
- Felonious says Coulter's getting her info about science from design theorists, and that they are wrong, i.e., not good sources of science information.
Does this help clear the air here? :-) --Wing Nut 14:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've been thinking about this controversy, but haven't got the specific solution yet. That won't be hard if there's agreement that it really is a solution. I think an important factor is that some material from the book was put (by me, maybe, not realizing what I was doing) into the middle of a section on "Science and intelligent design," which is an articulate critique of some of that material. Much better, IMHO, would be if there were a separate section about what the book says, followed by sections that critique it. That keeps both sides separate, and avoids confounding their arguments. The stuff Coulter says is notable and has merit. Its rebuttal has merit, too, and there's a lot of weight behind it. Keep 'em in separate sections, and readers can make up their minds. Lou Sander 14:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Expand on this statement
"The mainstream scientific community discounts the allegations, such as Coulter's, that the modern evolutionary synthesis lacks scientific rigor, is based on a tautology, is without experimental or physical proof or that it "disproves God." The claim that modern evolutionary theory lacks rigor is emphatically rejected by the United States National Academy of Sciences which says that evolution is one of the most thoroughly tested and confirmed theories in science."
Isn't the above statement a little tautological, modern evolutionary theory is true because so-and-so says it is true? Couldn't we put in specific counterexamples refuting Coulter's examples that she places in her book?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.180.56.241 (talk) 03:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- The first reference is to Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition (1999), which lays out their refutation of creationist criticism in detail. Is that not sufficient?--RattBoy 09:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
"media" note
Is it worth noting the coverage at http://www.nowpublic.com/controversial_ann_coulter_theory_embroils_wikipedia_over_racoon_gas_debate ? (on the talk page, I mean, not the article) -- nae'blis (talk) 16:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Crichton and urban atheism
Perhaps the long quote from Crichton could be summarized, leaving behind a single sentence with an internal link. Should the link go to Michael Crichton, to Radical environmentalism or both? --Uncle Ed 19:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Coulter on evolution
Here's what a reviewer (a secondary source) said:
- For liberals, evolution is the touchstone that separates the enlightened from the benighted. But Coulter neatly reverses the pretense that liberals are rationalists guided by the ideals of free inquiry and the scientific method. She exposes the essential truth about Darwinian evolution that liberals refuse to confront: it is bogus science.
- Writing with a keen appreciation for genuine science, Coulter reveals that the so-called "gaps" in the theory of evolution are all there is -- Darwinism is nothing but a gap. After 150 years of dedicated searching into the fossil record, evolution's proponents have failed utterly to substantiate its claims. And a long line of supposed evidence, from the infamous Piltdown Man to the "evolving" peppered moths of England, has been exposed as hoaxes. Still, liberals treat those who question evolution as religious heretics and prohibit students from hearing about real science when it contradicts Darwinism. And these are the people who say they want to keep faith out of the classroom?
- Liberals' absolute devotion to Darwinism, Coulter shows, has nothing to do with evolution's scientific validity and everything to do with its refusal to admit the possibility of God as a guiding force. They will brook no challenges to the official religion.
I think some of this "attitude" should be in the article. Supporters of evolution will, of course, disagree with the bogus science slam. Go ahead, take all the space you need to rebut her claim. Just let her make the claim first, before you rebut her. That's all I ask. --Uncle Ed 20:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Err, isn't it already there? The "Science and Intelligent Design" section makes it clear early on that Coulter is dismissing evolution as bogus science. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me the article makes Coulter's views pretty clear. The review is hilarious, though - "keen appreciation for genuine science" indeed. Friday (talk) 21:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)