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Template:Prophets of Islam project
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The edit warring over the reference to Mahound
I created an article Mahound using the material that is the subject of a revert war in Muhammad. If a pejorative term is notable, then it perhaps deserves to be in its own article, rather than in the biographical article of the person for whom it is a pejorative. However, immediately after creating the article, it was speedy deleted. I discussed the matter briefly with editor ➨ ЯEDVERS, who stated regarding Mahound as a pejorative:
- "it doesn't appear to be true (I've worked with a guy called Mahound - and yes, that was the spelling, and yes, he was muslim in his heritage"
So, I would very much like to know what facts people may bring to bear on the subject beside the existing references in Hamlet, Dante, and Watt, Montgomery,Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. Oxford University Press, 1961. fromm pg. 229 [Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. Oxford University Press, 1961. from pg. 229.] --BostonMA talk 20:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- It should have been Mahmoud not Mahound. Is User:Redvers sure about that? --Aminz 09:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
User Embarkedaxis (talk · contribs) added these comments to my talk page; I think they might have some pertience here; whether or not his logic is good, (I don't know yet myself), he seems to at least have a point:
- Mahound term was used by one or two peoples so it doesnt mean that it is his name's variant. And it is already there in Non-Muslim veiw of Muhammad. So there is no point to keep this word in variant. People are villify by many people but that doesnt mean it is his name variant. Everyone know the defination of variant. And 2ndly some people add this just because they hate him and wikipedia policy is neutral. So i want to keep this article away from skepticism, So that both muslims and non muslims would not be offended. I hope you will understand
- -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 00:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree with both the factual assertion and the assertion made regarding the motivations of Wikipedia editors. The citations are William Shakespeare and Dante Alighieri, two of the most influential authors of all time. Their views and citations from their works hold immense value and are not to be lightly disregarded or removed. To downplay the citations, taken from works written hundreds of years apart from one another, is disingenous. --ElKevbo 01:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you ElKevbo, --Aminz 09:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree with both the factual assertion and the assertion made regarding the motivations of Wikipedia editors. The citations are William Shakespeare and Dante Alighieri, two of the most influential authors of all time. Their views and citations from their works hold immense value and are not to be lightly disregarded or removed. To downplay the citations, taken from works written hundreds of years apart from one another, is disingenous. --ElKevbo 01:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't necessarily have a problem with citing them; I'm just not sure it's relevant to this article. Do we really need this aside talking about alternate names for Mohammed? I'm thinking we should have another article named Alternate names for Mohammed; we're already experimenting on creating an article Mahound, which may turn into this. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 02:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- As long as there are appropriate links to any new articles from this one then I think that sounds like a good idea. This is clearly a very long article and continuing to break it up into smaller, more detailed subarticles is probably the only viable option if we are to retain a significant level of detail. --ElKevbo 02:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- As the quote stands, it's fairly short, is a reference, and doesn't say anything harmful about Mohammed. I don't think it's a problem at the moment. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 02:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The footnote was a *footnote* and short. People can refer to the article Mahound as well, but it would be good to have a summary of it here. I did the research and created the footnote. it was only a brief summary leaving aside other details. --Aminz 09:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- It should have been Mahmoud not Mahound. - Well that's a Muslim name too (e.g., Mahmoud Abbas, leader of Fatah). So our conundrum remains. But that information is important; we make have to change the article name. Do you have any online sources to back up the claim that the term wa used to villify? Because we do have some doubt on the issue.-Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 17:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- Searching google for the name Mahound, not referring to the prophet Muhammad, I came up with a company with the name Mahound in it, a prisoner with the name Mahound, Mahound Manzaloui, an author. Not very many. However perhaps enough to believe that Mahound is used as a perjorative name for the prophet. Also, google hits may not reflect the true frequency of the name. With regard to the question of derogatory use during the middle ages, there are plenty of google links to that. The Song of Roland refers to Muslims as worshipping an idol named Mahound, (as well as others). I'm just reporting in. --BostonMA talk 18:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- The sources makes it clear that Mahound was used by medieval Christians to vilify Muhammad. No doubt about that. Now, if it is also a name, then we should have a disambiguation link, saying:” For other uses of the term Mahound, see Mahound (disambiguation)." at the top of the Mahound article (as it is in the top of many articles)--Aminz 01:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Good suggestion. --Islamic 15:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- The sources makes it clear that Mahound was used by medieval Christians to vilify Muhammad. No doubt about that. Now, if it is also a name, then we should have a disambiguation link, saying:” For other uses of the term Mahound, see Mahound (disambiguation)." at the top of the Mahound article (as it is in the top of many articles)--Aminz 01:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Searching google for the name Mahound, not referring to the prophet Muhammad, I came up with a company with the name Mahound in it, a prisoner with the name Mahound, Mahound Manzaloui, an author. Not very many. However perhaps enough to believe that Mahound is used as a perjorative name for the prophet. Also, google hits may not reflect the true frequency of the name. With regard to the question of derogatory use during the middle ages, there are plenty of google links to that. The Song of Roland refers to Muslims as worshipping an idol named Mahound, (as well as others). I'm just reporting in. --BostonMA talk 18:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Pictures
Why are there so many pictures of people this article has absolutely nothing to do with (such as the modern 'scholars')? It looks very unprofessional. —Aiden 04:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- It looks good. Please have also a look at the New Anti-Semtism article. --Aminz 04:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- I concur that it looks quite unprofessional. --Nehwyn 14:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
this article is a disgrace, and extremely revisionist
There is hardly any mention of the long history of rape, murder, robbery and warmongering on Muhammads account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.156.49.1 (talk)
- If you supply reliable sources to this information, it would help your cause more than simply disparaging the current article. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 18:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- However, please remember that this is an article about Muhammad and not an article about world history after Muhammad's death. --BostonMA talk 19:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly. Please list, describe and cite sources for said description regarding Mohammud's career as a rapist, murderer, robber and warmongerer (if such is the case). Please remember to write the material in an encyclopedic manner and to use formal writing style, including properly grammar, punc;tuat-ion, and spallung.DocEss 19:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't forget ethnic cleansing. Arrow740 19:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Arrow740, without some sort of citation, your comments are without context and not very usefull. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 19:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I assume everyone working on this article already knows about the Jewish tribes whose men he beheaded and whose women and children he sold into slavery. If you really want a citation I can get you one. But shouldn't people working on this article have some familiarity with the hadith? Arrow740 20:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- All Hadith, or just the specific ones you choose to portray the man in the light you rather? --Irishpunktom\talk 20:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I assume everyone working on this article already knows about the Jewish tribes whose men he beheaded and whose women and children he sold into slavery. If you really want a citation I can get you one. But shouldn't people working on this article have some familiarity with the hadith? Arrow740 20:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's in Ibn Ishaq and al-Tibari, the most reliable biographies of Muhammad. Both contain hadith generally considered genuine. Why are you acting ignorant? Arrow740 23:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- BTW who exactly told you Ishaq & Tabari were "most reliable sources". Generally genuine...dude wake up . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 01:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wake up and read the hadith and the early biographies of Muhammad. You might learn something about the methods that he used; he only started to become powerful after he started having people assassinated, starting with Asma bint Marwan. She was just a poet. Ibn Ishaq was the earliest biographer of Muhammad. His Sirat rasul Allah is the earliest extant biography of Muhammad. Also, according to the Islamic journal Renaissance, al-Tabari is "the father of Islamic History and one of the greatest historians that the world has produced." Arrow740 04:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ibn Ishaq is taken from Tabari, and Tabari's is a collection of the hadees and traditions of his era. He is not autorative as his collection gives equal weight to the absurd as the obvioulsy true. His is not Sahih, but as a historian he is brilliant for the era, using sources of every side of a conflict or divide. How much of Tabari have you actually read? Do you know how many witnes statements he collected? Do you treat all equally? --Irishpunktom\talk 12:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- No, Ibn Ishaq is primarily taken from Ibn Hisham. Ibn Hisham said that he censored some stories which he deemed to be too offensive to Muslims. This is why Tabari and other authors, who also recorded extracts of Ibn Ishaq's work, must be consulted for a complete biography. Ibn Hisham probably left out the story of the Satanic Verses, for one thing, but this is found in Tabari and in other places. Ibn Ishaq's work must be considered the most reliable because it was done closest to the time of Muhammad, and it was probably relatively complete; he did not censor to the extent he could have. Bukhari died over a hundred years later, when the concern over isnad had already developed in response to debates between Muslims. Arrow740 20:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- al-Tabari is "the father of Islamic History and one of the greatest historians that the world has produced.....Ibn Ishaq was the earliest biographer of Muhammad. ...agreed . But being old doesent mean most authentic . Deen is different from Vedic mythology . Unless an event is backed with unbroken chain of asnad , in which all links are authentic, it gets categorised as a myth . This is what differentiates Sirah from homer's odyssey. The aim of both these people was to gather everything that was available , & not to differentiate authentic from myth . Their works served & still serve as a library of events from which later scholars picked events that were Sahih according to their standards . Tabari recorded dozens of volumes of history in his life , out of which not even half is considered authentic by scholars , which they compiled as Sahih. While Ibn Ishaq, besides being devoid of authentic asnad is heavily based on "Israeliaat" (records originating from jewish sources) . You cant rewrite history according to your own whims. BTW asnad are not developed, as I said before, its not mythology . People base their lives on these events , & they like it to be very authentic . Just to let you know, the first part of your thesis is badly wrong. Learn to learn from learned people , & not from trolls on the net, otherwise you will keep on creating things like the new version of history, as above . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 21:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Now you're getting silly. Ibn Ishaq wasn't writing a myth like Homer, or recording ones like the early Vedic people. He was writing a biography. The Sahih Bukhari was compiled decades after Ibn Ishaq's work, and the Sahih Muslim even later. Sunnis choose to give precedence to these works for religious reasons. The concern over isnad did not exist in the early period after Muhammad. So in general, claims that hadith existing during Bukhari's time have good isnad are even more suspect than they otherwise would be. This is probably why so many of the hadith compiled at his time and later contradict each other. If you choose to trust your religion over logic, that's your choice. I'll trust the early biographers. Either way, there's not much more to be said about this. Arrow740 21:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- al-Tabari is "the father of Islamic History and one of the greatest historians that the world has produced.....Ibn Ishaq was the earliest biographer of Muhammad. ...agreed . But being old doesent mean most authentic . Deen is different from Vedic mythology . Unless an event is backed with unbroken chain of asnad , in which all links are authentic, it gets categorised as a myth . This is what differentiates Sirah from homer's odyssey. The aim of both these people was to gather everything that was available , & not to differentiate authentic from myth . Their works served & still serve as a library of events from which later scholars picked events that were Sahih according to their standards . Tabari recorded dozens of volumes of history in his life , out of which not even half is considered authentic by scholars , which they compiled as Sahih. While Ibn Ishaq, besides being devoid of authentic asnad is heavily based on "Israeliaat" (records originating from jewish sources) . You cant rewrite history according to your own whims. BTW asnad are not developed, as I said before, its not mythology . People base their lives on these events , & they like it to be very authentic . Just to let you know, the first part of your thesis is badly wrong. Learn to learn from learned people , & not from trolls on the net, otherwise you will keep on creating things like the new version of history, as above . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 21:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- No, Ibn Ishaq is primarily taken from Ibn Hisham. Ibn Hisham said that he censored some stories which he deemed to be too offensive to Muslims. This is why Tabari and other authors, who also recorded extracts of Ibn Ishaq's work, must be consulted for a complete biography. Ibn Hisham probably left out the story of the Satanic Verses, for one thing, but this is found in Tabari and in other places. Ibn Ishaq's work must be considered the most reliable because it was done closest to the time of Muhammad, and it was probably relatively complete; he did not censor to the extent he could have. Bukhari died over a hundred years later, when the concern over isnad had already developed in response to debates between Muslims. Arrow740 20:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ibn ishaq was collecting records that included both fact & fiction . Sunnis give precedence to authentic works because their writers spent all their life in differentiating fact from fiction . You can trust whatever you want to , but you arnt scholarly enough to rewrite history according to your personal standards . Cheers F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 21:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well if they managed to separate fact from fiction, Muhammad said some pretty funny things: , , Template:Muslim, , , . And also Aisha was both six years old and nine years old Template:Muslim when Muhammad married her, though both Bukhari and Muslim say she was nine when he first had sex with her. Arrow740 22:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- i don't think ibn hisham ever says he "censored" material which was "too offensive". all we have of ibn ishaq's sira today is guillaume's attempted reconstruction through alternative (and yes, later) sources. so no, we don't have the original. within the work itself, the poetry section especially is deemed as containing multiple forgeries. if you have read tareekh at-tabari you will see tabari stating that he did not seek to authenticate any report: he included them whether he considered them fabricated, weak or sound, so that people later would be able to analyse more closely upon more detailed investigation. even if we look at the methodology of ibn ishaq, in a number of instances he was non-committal, preferring to state the narration and its chain without deriving from it, or using cautious language such as "it is claimed" or "it is alleged". ITAQALLAH 23:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- The wikipedia article on Ibn Ishaq states that Ibn Hisham admitted that he did not include all of Ibn Ishaq's work in his presentation of it. I have read elsewhere that he left out material which he deemed to be to offenive to Muslims. I was under the impression that some of Ibn Ishaq's material was also included in Tabari's work, though that might be wrong. The fact that Ibn Ishaq was noncommittal in parts of his biography would make the rest of it more reliable, in my mind. Anyway I have some sources on Ibn Ishaq avaiable to me and I'll read them to see if modern Muslims are right to distance themselves from the Sirat Rasul Allah. Arrow740 23:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Asking for a citation is not ignorant, it is required here. Please be civil, it is not optional here, for more information read the WP:CIVILITY policy. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 00:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- He was acting as if he did not know which sources I was referring to. Thus, he was acting ignorant. Asking for a citation is not ignorant; acting as if you do not know what someone is referring to is acting ignorant. Arrow740 01:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Attack the arguement, not the arguer, please. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 01:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is in the article Muhammad#Muhammad_and_the_Jewish_tribes_of_Medina. Now whatever you want to add come with the sources and I might also help you to add that. --- ابراهيم 09:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is indeed there, albeit in a very onesided way. Str1977 (smile back) 13:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is in the article Muhammad#Muhammad_and_the_Jewish_tribes_of_Medina. Now whatever you want to add come with the sources and I might also help you to add that. --- ابراهيم 09:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Depictions
This is ridiculous, there has been no consensus on if the depictions stay. If this goes on anymore, I'm going to request the page be full-protected, so we have to work out something. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 17:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- No need for pictures showing Muhammad. -- ابراهيم 17:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
To be honest, we've had quite a discussion about this above. I would suggest you read it in full, as other people have disagreed with you on this one. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 18:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- While there is no consensus either way, keeping the pictures is in line with wikipedia policy, standard practices, and manual of style, while removing the images is an exception to normal practices. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 18:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- We are not talking about Muhammad's picture, but about a fake cartoon image. That does not belong to an Encyclopedia. --Truthpedia 22:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- agreed. this horse has been long dead. Sparing use of historical artwork: yes. In-your-face, WP:POINT provocative insertion of images: no. Muslims have removed bona fide artwork, Islamophobes have added cartoons and "Mahomet" woodcuts, we try to keep the middle ground here. It is a good sign if people on both extremes of a debate disagree with you, it might mean you are close to NPOV. dab (ᛏ) 20:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- I concur with the position express just above, it seems a reasonable middle ground. --Nehwyn 11:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I see, I thought we were talking about regular pictures again. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 13:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Apparently, we are talking about regular pictures. --Nehwyn 14:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- I do not understand what you mean by regular pictures? There is not problem with pictures in general but only with picture showing Muhammad. --- ابراهيم 16:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- I daresay he intended "regular pictures" as historical artistic depictions of Mohammad not specifically made with the intention to offend, as opposed to the recent cartoons and some woodcuts, which are intentional puns. --Nehwyn 16:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I continue to marvel that this sickly stew of a discussion continues to boil on and stink up the house. Face facts: we will never solve this issue through discusion alone: Islammis will not ever accept pictures of Mowhamudd (they'll use an argument, however senseless) and non-Islammis will always want pictures (they'll talk 'til they're blue in the face and convince no one). What we need is to have the issue arbitrated.DocEss 16:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- DocEss, regardless of the current state of affairs, referring to Muslims as "Islammis" and Muhammad as "Mowhamudd" is uncivil. Please do refrain from such terminology and endeavor to maintain a scholarly approach when editing. Thanks. (→Netscott) 16:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oh Ok - I've seen it spelled so many ways I just go random now. An Islammis is a legit word - I've heard it all my life is is not meant as an insult.DocEss 17:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- There was no dispute previously and was peace for a long period. The article even have a picture of Muhammad but without face. Then came some people with picture and it started. --- ابراهيم 16:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well there's a dispute now! What is your solution? Remember, most people don't like being censored and will react strongly to attempts at censorship.DocEss 17:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a blog and not a soapbox. A good many edits are not suitable for an encyclopedia and are deleted. If you feel that this is censorship, and that it infringes upon your free speech, you might consider another venue as being more a suitable forum in which to express your opinions. --BostonMA talk 19:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Similarly, BostonMA, you might consider another venue as being a more suitable forum in which pictures of Muhammad do not appear, as encyclopedias do contain depictions of their subjects.Proabivouac 20:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Proabivouac, what encyclopedias do you read? I have a batch of Brittanicas from 1990 and what is notable is that the overwhelming vast majority of the articles do not have images. Also, an accoutable free online encyclopedia has no pictures either. Further, articles such Abortion, Coprophilia, Urolagnia, Vomiting, and others have no image, as it would cause offense. Wikipedia is not here to cause offense, its here as a method of spreading information. The fact is no-one knows anything about the image, except that that the guy preaching is the Prophet Muhammad. Is he actually preaching? It looks like a minbar, but can you be sure? Who, and this is so important, is he preaching to? And Why? Why is this occasion so important that Al-Biruni decided that he needed to illistrate the point in what was, and I seem to be the only one who knows the work it came from, a history book. This is obviously an important point in the sirah, the Shia pointy caps indicate to me that the image indicates a Shia POV on an event.. what event? Where did it take place? Will the people so insistant on the image being added, please, find out what it is that they are adding? --Irishpunktom\talk 20:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- "Proabivouac, most 'Pedias have few images." If WP has too many images generally, you've only made the problem worse by uploading a fair number of images yourself[1]; why not start by deleting those?Proabivouac 01:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- If any of my images caused the offense that this image does, I would. When did i say that Wikipedia had too many images? You said "encyclopedias do contain depictions of their subjects". This statement is false, as most 'pedias have few images of their subjects, and Wikipedia is rare in its excessive, by comparrison, use of them. Further, there are many articles void of images as inclusion of such images would, understandably, cause offense. At present this article has two images of Muhammad. One of which I know exactly what is happening, where it is happening, and roughly when it happened, the other no-one seems to know much about, and everyone agrees causes offense, and yet continue to bully others so as to ensure remains in place. --Irishpunktom\talk 14:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- "Proabivouac, most 'Pedias have few images." If WP has too many images generally, you've only made the problem worse by uploading a fair number of images yourself[1]; why not start by deleting those?Proabivouac 01:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Um, did I say that depictions of Muhammad should not appear in Wikipedia? --BostonMA talk 20:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Proabivouac, what encyclopedias do you read? I have a batch of Brittanicas from 1990 and what is notable is that the overwhelming vast majority of the articles do not have images. Also, an accoutable free online encyclopedia has no pictures either. Further, articles such Abortion, Coprophilia, Urolagnia, Vomiting, and others have no image, as it would cause offense. Wikipedia is not here to cause offense, its here as a method of spreading information. The fact is no-one knows anything about the image, except that that the guy preaching is the Prophet Muhammad. Is he actually preaching? It looks like a minbar, but can you be sure? Who, and this is so important, is he preaching to? And Why? Why is this occasion so important that Al-Biruni decided that he needed to illistrate the point in what was, and I seem to be the only one who knows the work it came from, a history book. This is obviously an important point in the sirah, the Shia pointy caps indicate to me that the image indicates a Shia POV on an event.. what event? Where did it take place? Will the people so insistant on the image being added, please, find out what it is that they are adding? --Irishpunktom\talk 20:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Similarly, BostonMA, you might consider another venue as being a more suitable forum in which pictures of Muhammad do not appear, as encyclopedias do contain depictions of their subjects.Proabivouac 20:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a blog and not a soapbox. A good many edits are not suitable for an encyclopedia and are deleted. If you feel that this is censorship, and that it infringes upon your free speech, you might consider another venue as being more a suitable forum in which to express your opinions. --BostonMA talk 19:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, in his defence I must say that Boston has never said that. [I do notice that he tends to side with the sensitive folk in any issue, though.] Irish: book-form 'pedias have few images because the costs would be astonomical, not to mention the weight of the books themselves. Be pragmatic: Wiki is a perfect forum for images in pedia format. Actually, I can't think of a better place for a pedia than the Web for that very reason: IMAGERY. What a resource we can create! And Wiki does have tons of images both lovely and grotesque, so that pillar of your argument crumbles too. Regrettably, I see we go round and round again with the any-argument-will-do-to-stop-the-Mohammd-images format of discourse.DocEss 16:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- The argument remains the same as it has always been. The image is offensive, is known to be offensive and serves no purpose. Wikipedia does not gratuitiously offend, and images that offend should only be included if they add to the information in the article. This image simply does not. It is an image of what? Muhammad is presumeably the man on what appears to be the Minbar, but that cannot be certain. No-one seems to know who anyone else is. All this image tells is is that there were depictions of Muhammad, several hundred years after his death, in Iran (Persia as English speakers called it). The fact is the image does nothing to improve the article. it illistrates nothing concerning the biography of Muhammad, because we know nothing of the context in which it was drawn. All it does is offend, and thats not why wikipedia is here. --Irishpunktom\talk 18:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- It does not offend me. And that argument (i.e,, "it serves no purpose") is invalid - pictures/depictions/images of people always serve a purpose: they satisfy the human need to put a face to a name.DocEss 18:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Images that cause offense tend not to offend ewveryone, that it does not offend you is of little relevence, the fact is that it demonstaratively offends people, that you are aware it causes offence, and in spite of that you continue to add it, without knowing very much else about it. There is absolutely no way of saying that is Muhammads face, futher there is no way of telling that that is Muhammad preaching, can you tell me with any form of source that Muhammad is not one in audience? --Irishpunktom\talk 21:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Round and round we go again. And agian this argument proferred above is fallacious. We don't know what Moses looked like either. Nor St. Peter, Constantinople, Buddha, etc. That doesn't stop us from depicting them. And why do we do that? Because humans have an uncontrollable, instinctual urge & need to put a face to a name. We are going to put Mohammed's face to a name and not feel bad about it.DocEss 21:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- If we include a picture here, we annoy some of our readers and contributors, and do not add anything particularly informative. We have a page devoted to depictions of Muhammad, and we link to it. I think including a picture here costs us more than it gains us. Tom Harrison Talk 22:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps; but WP:Profanity says that people getting offended is not a criterion. I've argued that this page offends more people than it helps; but again, the profanity guidelines say something else. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 22:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Um, the Profanity guideline states that Wikipedia does not avoid content merely because it is offensive. However, it doesn't say that offensiveness should not be a consideration. Rather it says the opposite. The guideline says that if an image is offensive, it should be included only if the absense of the image would make the article less informative, or if no suitable alternative exists.
- The page to which you refer has images which do offend people. However, please read this comment for an argument addressing the point of such images being informative, and thus appropriate for Wikipedia. --BostonMA talk 14:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
please use p.b.u.h after using the name "muhammed" (p.b.u.h)
i am surprised why not one single person noted this but the name Muhammed (p.b.u.h) should be followed by the words p.b.u.h or peace be upon him, or SAW, meaning sallahu allaihi wasallam. people wil be ill fated who do not do so at the time of resurrection. so if you could change the artilce accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tabraiz (talk • contribs) 19:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)}
- no. but I assure you other people have made the suggestion before. dab (ᛏ) 19:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- 1) Not everyone on this blue earth is Muslim, and not all of them believe in Muhammad's teachings. You cannot ask a non-Muslim to follow Islamic customs. 2)Where in the Quran does it mention 'pbuh' or "SAW"? ImKidding 23:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- removed the ensuing round of indulging in pointless provocation. dab (ᛏ) 11:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, one could always say it verbally instead of writing it. Secondly, when there are other important things you could contribute then why to give more priority to this. Still most of the article has no references (except only few sections). Many facts are not presented rightly or even not at all. I do not have time but if you have time then try to work on them. -- ابراهيم 11:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
POV masking as fact
The section on the Jewish tribes has some serious problems, the worst being its adoption of a pro-Muhammad POV in basically everything.
- When Muhammad came to Jathrib he was in no position of "allowing" or disallowing the Jews religious autonomy. Such a wording is a projecting later conditions back into an earlier time.
- The sentence "however, the Jewish tribes tended to resist both religious and political cooperation with the Muslims, and also cooperated with Muslim's enemies" is completely POV, blaming the victims for their own sufferings. And claiming that is referenced does not help, as just because Esposito explains and justifies it that way doesn't make it a fact, as which it is stated. Also, it belongs into its proper place which is the next paragraph which deals with the three Jewish tribes being attacked by Muhammad one after the other.
Therefore I restore the neutral version again. Str1977 (smile back) 12:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- You could use other references to deny what this reference say. But you cannot change meaning of present reference. By doing that you are writing your own POV. --- ابراهيم 12:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Dear Mr Faisal, I would suggest that you take some time and reflect about the nature of a encyclopedic article and about WP policies, especially WP:V but also WP:NPOV.
- An encyclopedic article is not simply a collection of referenced soundbites. If "Esp" has nothing more to say than "the Jews had it coming" he is out of place in this paragraph and can only be included in the article at all via "Esposito says the Jews had it coming". This view, BTW, is already included in the next paragraph. We certainly cannot write that Jews were "fatihless anyway" as if that were a matter of fact. We have here three Jewish tribes and three occasions of their being punished by Muhammad. The way you want to treat it is insufficent.
- And no, I have absolutely no reason to dig up other references. Even if the whole article were based solely on Mr Esp, it would still have to be in NPOV language. That was the problem I fixed. The issue here is not that I put in my POV (you have no idea what my view on these issues is) but that you want to have your POV stated as fact, using Esposito as a vehicle. Str1977 (smile back) 12:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Since my dear fellow editors dodge the issue, hiding behind "misrepresention of source" (as far as I can remember there were no quotation marks before) I have tagged the section as POV. Even if Mr Esposito says so, you cannot simply state the Jews to be traitors, especially not in general. Str1977 (smile back) 20:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC) ... and especially not twice. Str1977 (smile back) 21:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- No, it was not a direct quote before. I added this:
- Esposito writes, "However, the Jewish tribes, which had long lived in Medina and had political ties with the Quraysh, tended to resist both religious and political cooperation with the Muslims. They denied Muhammad's prophethood and message and cooperated with his Meccan enemies."
- quoting directly from Esposito's book, since there seemed to be a dispute on which paraphrase was accurate. I do not mean the passage to say, "This is true", but "This is what Esposito says." Maybe if some other scholar has written otherwise, we can include that as well. Or, we could shorten the section and cover it in more detail on another page. Tom Harrison Talk 21:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- No, it was not a direct quote before. I added this:
- Since my dear fellow editors dodge the issue, hiding behind "misrepresention of source" (as far as I can remember there were no quotation marks before) I have tagged the section as POV. Even if Mr Esposito says so, you cannot simply state the Jews to be traitors, especially not in general. Str1977 (smile back) 20:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC) ... and especially not twice. Str1977 (smile back) 21:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- You could use other references to deny what this reference say. But you cannot change meaning of present reference. By doing that you are writing your own POV. --- ابراهيم 12:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- The view of any other academics I have seen so far are the same. In the case of Qurayza: Marco Scholler thinks they were openly, probably actively, were supporting Meccans and their allies; John Esposito thinks Banu Qurayza had negotiated with the enemy; and Welch states that Muslims "discovered, or perhaps became suspected" that the Jews were conspiring with the enemy. Watt is also saying something along these lines. --Aminz 22:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Some time back, I summarized the range of opinions given as, "Scholars differ as to precise nature of the Banu Qurayza's relationship with the Meccans, with some believing they were in open alliance, others that they had only negotiated with them, or that a relationship was merely suspected." I'm not sure why this was reverted. Negotiation is rather different than open alliance, and suspicion of subversion different from subversion, but Aminz' text presents these as continuation of a single idea. Moreover, calling Meccans "the enemy" is unnecessarily POV; they were only the enemy from one party's perspective. In any event, we must summarize wherever possible to prevent the article from becoming a quote farm; all the reader needs to know here is the range of scholarly opinion.Proabivouac 01:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- As your summary was giving the impression that scholars who believe that they didn't have the alliance with Mecca and those who believe that they had the alliance, were equal in number. Although, the later one is more widely accepted. TruthSpreaderTalk 05:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- We only have three cited scholars here. Of these three, only Scholler is saying they were allied.Proabivouac 05:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- With current content, atleast it is giving some extra information for the reader and summarizing would only save a few bytes. TruthSpreaderTalk 06:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- As you advance a new argument, do you now acknowledge that my edit was a fair and representative restatement of the cited passages?Proabivouac 06:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- as far as I remember (could be mistaken), you removed the academic POV that the massacre didn't happen. if not, sorry for irrelevant comment. --Aminz 06:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I did so because the article as reproduced (?) by JewsforAllah didn't cite its author, which I'm confident you'll agree was the right thing to do. Now that it's attributed, I'll take another look. It would appear to be a marginal view.Proabivouac 06:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- As I explained before (and the article says), Watt quotes this article and gives his opinion about it. Were it unscholarly, Watt wouldn't have mentioned it. Aside from these, the journal(JSAI) in which the article is published is famous.--Aminz 06:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I have no problem with Esposito's view being included and in fact it is already included in the following paragraph. There, it is also properly attributed, as the sentence starts "Esposito thinks that ..."
- In the upper paragaph it is implied that Esposito's view is factual.
- Also note that my objection to the former sentence has nothing directly to do with the Banu Qurazai. It doesn't talk about them but about all the Jews. If I am not mistaken the scholarly assessement is that the Qurazai either conspired with the Meccans or at least moved in that direction. But that says nothing about the two other tribes.
- Finally, the sentence "They denied Muhammad's prophethood and message" shows how pathetic Esposito's view is: does he really think this a complaint? Were the Jews in any way compelled to accept Muhammad as a prophet? What about the pact mentioned only a few words earlier?
- Good point, ST1977. If Esposito frames it in such a slanted way, we're not obliged to perpetuate his error. We must distinguish between an expert finding of fact and vacuous bias for which we've no reason to believe Esposito's more worthy than anyone else's. As for the pact, there was no "pact" - at least not one the Jews were invited to sign - only imposition by fiat. Nor were Muhammad and the emigrants welcome in all quarters. I will add this shortly, cited to Lewis.Proabivouac 17:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- The current wording is, all in all, unacceptable, and removing the POV tag without this issue being cleared up (whoever did it) is unacceptable as well. Str1977 (smile back) 11:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Now I have seen who did it: it was Aminz [2] with the edit summary "Muhammad and the Jewish tribes of Medina - now it is all attributed". This removal stems either from dishonest or lack of knowledge. I did tag the section for "POV" and not for "lack of references", hence simply putting references to the bits doesn't help. Goddday, Str1977 (smile back) 11:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is a strange concept that a section written with many references still is a POV. Yes it could be a POV of the authors but not in general sense. If you could find other authors then write what they say too. --- ابراهيم 17:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- You obviously still don't get it. This is not about WP:V but about WP:NPOV. You could add a thousand references and the problem would remain. Str1977 (smile back) 18:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- If anyone thinks a passage is POV, please prove it. That is, find an academic scholar who disagrees with Esposito. Proabivouac pointed out that there were no agreement between the Jews and Muhammad. That would contradict both Esposito and Watt. Watt asserts that there was "certainly" such an agreement in general between the Jews and Muslims. Won't believe that Lewis contradicts both Watt and Esposito on such a matter until I see it. I would like to thank Proabivouac for the approach he has taken. --Aminz 20:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Str1977, please specify exactly a sentence that you think is now presented as a fact but is a POV, or I will remove the tag --Aminz 21:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- There are actually two sentence that need attention:
- The first is the one about the "pact". IMHO it is onesided to portray it as an act of Muhammad's graciousness as per "allowing". I always thought that the Quran taught that there was "no coercion in religion". If that is true, how can it now become a mere allowance. But in this case, what references say is paramount, according to your last post, Aminz.
- The second is different: "However, the Jewish tribes, which had long lived in Medina and had political ties with the Quraysh, tended to resist both religious and political cooperation with the Muslims. They denied Muhammad's prophethood and message and cooperated with his Meccan enemies" - this is POV pushing (and even if attributed to Esposito, it is still his POV) that contrasts Muhammad's graciousness with "Jewish treachery" - claiming that the Jews resisted Muhammad politically from the get go. Given the previous sentence the fact that the Jews "denied Muhammad's prophethood and message" is completely irrelevant, as this was exactly what Muhammad allowed them to do. Finally, it is problematic that Esposito merely talks about the Jews in general. I guess that the Quraiza in fact did conspire with the Quraish (though I can hardly blame them after what had happened to their fellow Jews) but this sentence also implies the guilt of the other two tribes.
- 'denied Muhammad's prophethood and message' is NOT neutral because it speaks of 'prophethood' as a real object. We should say instead they didnt believe Muhammad's claim of prophethood. Not taking a position on whether it real which calling his claim his 'prophethood' does. all we know is that he said he was prophet and Jews didnt believe him.Opiner 06:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Didn't it occur to anyone how strange it is that the same bit, probably the same setence from Esposito was used twice as a reference for exactly the same issue. Why not repeat Watt all over the place.
- So, my proposal is that we first present the undisputed, unproblematic bits about the pact, then the also undisputed fact that Muhammed drove out two tribes and killed a third (with apologizing) and then cover the various scholar's views on these issues. Much of the problematic Esposito can be put there.
- Thanks Aminz for your cooperation. Str1977 (smile back) 21:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Will get back to your comment soon, but it is not merely Esposito who is saying that. Encyclopedia of Religion also repeats that. I should check with other sources as well. --Aminz 21:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- There are actually two sentence that need attention:
- It is a strange concept that a section written with many references still is a POV. Yes it could be a POV of the authors but not in general sense. If you could find other authors then write what they say too. --- ابراهيم 17:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- As I explained before (and the article says), Watt quotes this article and gives his opinion about it. Were it unscholarly, Watt wouldn't have mentioned it. Aside from these, the journal(JSAI) in which the article is published is famous.--Aminz 06:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I did so because the article as reproduced (?) by JewsforAllah didn't cite its author, which I'm confident you'll agree was the right thing to do. Now that it's attributed, I'll take another look. It would appear to be a marginal view.Proabivouac 06:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- as far as I remember (could be mistaken), you removed the academic POV that the massacre didn't happen. if not, sorry for irrelevant comment. --Aminz 06:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- As you advance a new argument, do you now acknowledge that my edit was a fair and representative restatement of the cited passages?Proabivouac 06:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- With current content, atleast it is giving some extra information for the reader and summarizing would only save a few bytes. TruthSpreaderTalk 06:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
(indent reset)
Remember, I object to such a general statement on the Jews and to place it in this passage, not to an dePOVed statement later. Since the passage where Esposito is referenced the second time also contains other views on this, his view can hardly be undisputed. Str1977 (smile back) 16:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- The recent additions by Aminz are interesting and valuable but increase the problem. We cannot simply state as facts the movements within Muhammad's psyche, especially not his shock on supposedly "a few theological arguments". Such a wording is extremely onesided as it (willfully?) omits the cause for the disagreement. The "theological argument" was Muhammad's claim of being a prophet. The content can clearly be salvaged and integrated into the text, further up (where we treat his coming to Jathrib and his not being accepted as prophet by the Jews, leading up to the pact). Str1977 (smile back) 18:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- PS. If you don't mind I will draw up the version of the section I have in mind:
- "When Muhammad was preaching in Mecca, he viewed Christians and Jews, whom he referred to as People of the Book, as natural allies sharing the core principles of his teachings, and anticipated their acceptance and support. Muslims like Jews were praying towards Jerusalem. [1] He was very excited of going to Medina where the Jewish community had long worshiped the one God [2]
- "Many Medinans converted to the faith of the Meccan immigrants, but the Jewish tribes did not, as they rejected Muhammad's status as a prophet.[1]It was a disappointment to Muhammad that he was not universally accepted. Still, some Jews engaged in conversation with him about their religion and their religious history. They talked about the serious theological disagreements among Jews and Christians. [2]
- "Professor John L. Esposito presents one common view, writing that when a delegation from Medina invited Muhammad to serve as the chief arbitrator for the entire community, Muhammad wrote the Constitution of Medina which specified the rights and duties of all citizens and the relationship of the Muslim community to other communities. The pact made between Muhammad and the Jews demanded the latter's political loyalty in return for religious and cultural autonomy.Cite error: A
<ref>tag is missing the closing</ref>(see the help page). - "After each major battle with the Meccans, Muhammad accused one of the Jewish tribes of treachery. After Badr, the Banu Qainuqa tribe and after the Battle of Uhud, the Banu Nadir were expelled from Medina with their families and what possessions they could carry with them. After the Battle of the Trench in 627, the Jews of Banu Qurayza were accused of conspiring with the Meccans; Qurayza men were beheaded, women and children enslaved and their properties were confiscated. [3]
- "On the fate of Banu Qurayza, another academic point of view is that Ibn Ishaq, the first biographer of Muhammad, supposedly gathered many details of the incident from descendants of the Qurayza Jews themselves. These descendants allegedly embellished or manufactured details of the incident by borrowing from histories of Jewish persecutions during Roman times. [4] Watt, a scholar of Islamic studies, however thinks that this argument "is not entirely convincing." [5] The majority of academic scholars think that the incident happened. Watt writes that "during the siege of Medina , Muhammad became anxious about their conduct and sent some of the leading Muslims to talk to them; the result was disquieting. Though Qurayza does not appear to have committed any overt hostile act, they had probably been involved in negotiations with the enemy." [6] Marco Scholler thinks they were openly, probably actively, were supporting Meccans and their allies [7]; John Esposito thinks that "the Jewish tribes, which had long lived in Medina and had political ties with the Quraysh, ... and cooperated with (Muhammad's) Meccan enemies."[1]; and Welch states that Muslims "discovered, or perhaps became suspected" that the Jews were conspiring with the enemy. [8]"
- Any thoughts? Str1977 (smile back) 11:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Str1977, the source says Muhammad was shocked. My conjecture is that it might be related to the following verse:
42:13. The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now). And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye can bear witness.
Regarding your suggestion, please let me find more information about the constitution of medina, and Jews and will get back to you soon. --Aminz 00:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Any objection to the recent version of the section? --Aminz 05:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- What is the recent version you are talking about?
- We can certainly include Muhammad's shock but in a non-endorsing wording - we cannot adopt Muhammad's stance of the oneness of religion (in the end, meaning Islam). Str1977 (smile back) 09:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Had a quick look into your additions: they bloat the section with off-topic information (mainly on the Jews of Medina) and with linguistic errors (e.g. the Medina). Neither does a treatment of disputes withing Jathrib belong here at all - it should be covered concisely in the Hijra section. Str1977 (smile back) 10:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Since others don't hesitate to edit this section, I think I might post my proposal as well.
- Some additions by Aminz on the issues between Jews and Muhammad can be included right after the setence that talks about their discussions. However, refrain from statements that reasons were "on hand". Since there exists no communique by the Jewish tribes on why they rejected Muhammad, we cannot make such a statement unless ALL scholars agree that this is "on hand". Str1977 (smile back) 14:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- I will restore these "Jewish reasonings" minus those that are definitely problematic:
- the one about Abdallah b. Ubbay. (who BTW has an article called Abd-Allah ibn Ubaiy - courtesy would have required to provide a link to that, most notably since it does not support what you wrote)
- contradictions between Quran and the Bible - there was no Quran at that time.
- The passage starting "The Qur'an, met these criticisms ..." is, apart from the wrong comma, completely arguing the Islamic POV and goes way beyond the topic. The statement that "undeniably" Abraham was not a Jews is problematic as it is misleading (even when not supplemented by the Islamic statement that he was a Muslim, playing on the ambiguity of that word.
- Str1977 (smile back) 14:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- I will restore these "Jewish reasonings" minus those that are definitely problematic:
- Had a quick look into your additions: they bloat the section with off-topic information (mainly on the Jews of Medina) and with linguistic errors (e.g. the Medina). Neither does a treatment of disputes withing Jathrib belong here at all - it should be covered concisely in the Hijra section. Str1977 (smile back) 10:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- You wrote, contradictions between Quran and the Bible - there was no Quran at that time, well! Quran was revealed in 23 years, hence whatever portion of it had been revealed at that time, is under discussion.
- Then you wrote, Abraham was not a Jew, is problematic as it is misleading. This statement is asserted by a verse of Qur'an ([Quran 3:67]) and secondly even Jews would agree that he wasn't a Jew, as Israelites were identified by Israel (Jacob) and not Abraham (although Israel was also from children of Abraham, just like Muhammad claimed to be Ishmaelite, also from progeny of Abraham). TruthSpreaderTalk 15:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- To address these points:
- If we say The Quran we immediately associate the book of that name or the Islamic revelation in its entirety. If individual revelations are referred to, then use a different wording, to avoid confusion to the reader.
- If you read carefully I did not say that "Abraham was not a Jew" was wrong but problematic as it is misleading. What the Quran says is completely irrelevant in this matter. Abraham is not a Jew, since that means either a descendant of his great-grandson Judah, or an inhabitant of the kingdom of Judah, or descendant of his grandson Israel, or a adherent to the religion of Judaism. But nonetheless, Abaraham is the patriarch of all Jews. He was not an Arab and he was not a Muslim in the sense that he adhered to the religion historically founded by Muhammad. We should not use this as cheap trick insinuations. That was all my remark was about.
- Str1977 (smile back) 17:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- To address these points:
"The enemy"
Can we all agree, at least, that to refer to Mecca as "the enemy" is unacceptably POV?Proabivouac 06:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Why? Could you please explain? That Quraysh were enemies of Muhammad is the Point of View of all scholars, isn't it? --Aminz 06:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but it is likewise the view of all scholars that Muhammad was the enemy of the Quraysh. We cannot pick one or the other to designate as "the enemy" even if our sources do so.Proabivouac 07:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see. we can then say "his enemies"? how is that? --Aminz 07:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- What's wrong with 'the Meccans?'Proabivouac 07:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Muhammad declaired himself as a religious leader and fought against enemies of God (at least he proclaimed), and this stance is normally taken seriously by scholars. TruthSpreaderTalk 07:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Muhammad didn't just declare himself a religious leader. He proclaimed himself the Messiah. Think about how this combined with his penchant for pillage would have impressed the Jewish Meccans. Frotz661 17:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- As long as it is in a quote or put in quotes (together with conspiring or whatever the accusation is) I don't see a problem with using "the enemy". Str1977 (smile back) 16:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. Using quotes like that is decidedly informal whereas Wikipedia strives to use more formal language. Therefore, it should instead be something like "...conspired with (Mohammad's) enemy...". Those should be square brackets. I don't know how to keep the Wiki engine from rendering them. Frotz661 22:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- As long as it is in a quote or put in quotes (together with conspiring or whatever the accusation is) I don't see a problem with using "the enemy". Str1977 (smile back) 16:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Of course, a quote must not be altered, but we should paraphrase and summarize where possible, instead of dumping long quotes. In this case, what can be wrong with, 'The Meccans?' Using 'the enemy' invites us to adopt the emigrants' perspective as a component of apology: the Jews were conspiring with the enemy, so naturally they had to take action.Proabivouac 16:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Sure, I merely opined that I don't see a problem in using it once, but of course there are equally correct alternatives that might even be clearer.
- The point above talking about "fought against enemies of God" is clearly not tenable as "the enemy" in question here is clearly the tribe of the Quraish controlling Mecca and no other "enemies of God". Str1977 (smile back) 18:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Muhammad didn't just declare himself a religious leader. He proclaimed himself the Messiah. Think about how this combined with his penchant for pillage would have impressed the Jewish Meccans. Frotz661 17:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see. we can then say "his enemies"? how is that? --Aminz 07:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but it is likewise the view of all scholars that Muhammad was the enemy of the Quraysh. We cannot pick one or the other to designate as "the enemy" even if our sources do so.Proabivouac 07:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I think saying "Muhammad's enemies" is perfectly fine. Of course, they were Quraysh plus their nomad allies. But there is a reason why the source says enemies: because according to the pact, Jews shouldn't have supported Muhammad's enemies, not specifically Quraysh per say. So, saying "Muhammad's enemies" is not only better, but it is more accurate. --Aminz 23:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- There was no "pact;" it was the unilateral imposition of Muhammad and the emigrants (Lewis "The Arabs in History" (reprint) 1993: 39.), which may accordingly be summarized as, the Jews were warned, not that they agreed to anything at all. Nor do your cites show any scholarly consensus that the Jews were supporting anyone; of three, one suggests that they were negotiating with them and the third that the relationship may have been only suspected.Proabivouac 07:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The cambridge history of Islam says that a delegation from Medina, consisting of the representatives of the twelve important clans of Medina, invited Muhammad as a neutral outsider to Medina to serve as the chief arbitrator for the entire community, to solve their disputes. They promised accepting him as judge among them, The cambridge history of Islam. Muhammad drew the pact in order to solve the disputes. What do you think about that?
Also, please point me to a particular sentence that you dispute. What additions do you suggest? --Aminz 09:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
From Lewis' "The Arabs in History", page 39:
An Arab historian has preserved for us a series of documents, giving the embryo constitution of the early Medinese community. In the words of the chronicler, 'Muhammad wrote and issued a writing among the Muhajurun and the Ansar, in which he made an agreement with the Jews and concluded with them a treaty confirming them in the free exercise of their religion and the possession of their goods, imposing on them and conceding to them certain conditions.' The document is not a treaty in the modern sense, but rather a unilateral proclamation. Its purpose was purely practical and administrative and reveals the cautious, careful character of the Prophet's diplomacy. It regulated the relations between the Meccan immigrants and the Medinese tribes, and between both of these and the Jews.
Literary reforms
We know that Qur'an is widely considered the most perfect example of the Arabic Language, largely agreed that the Qur'an represents the standards by which other literary productions in Arabic are measured [3]. Is something like "literary reforms" defined? Does reforms means influence? If yes, then Qur'an has been very influential (e.g. Arabic grammers were written based upon the qur'anic language). --Aminz 07:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ghamidi and Islahi normally use extensively Pre-Islamic Arabian language in their exegesis and put a lot of emphasis on The Importance of Classical Arabic. Similarly there are two interesting articles written by Al-Tabari, which might be helpful:The Qur’an and Pre-Islamic Arabic 1:5-6 and Does the Qur’an Contain Non-Arabic Vocabulary? But I think the most relevant article would be from Prof. Mustansir Mir on The Qur’an as Literature. (Mustansir Mir's "The Qur'an as Literature," Religion and Literature 20 (1988): 49-64) TruthSpreaderTalk 07:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- There are many other articles, which are available at:[4] written by Mustansir Mir. That might also be helpful. TruthSpreaderTalk 08:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Muhammad, --Aminz 08:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
A discussion that was pending while awaiting the assistance of a mediator was archived. I have moved the discussion to Talk:Muhammad/Depictions in case we want to continue the discussion there. Alternatively, feel free to move it back onto this page (i.e. Talk:Muhammad). --BostonMA talk 13:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Book not scholarly enough?
Would someone please explain why a book such as this one: The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion, by Robert Spencer, does not deserve to be listed as a book critical of Mohammad and Islam. Not scholarly? The only other work listed as non-muslim/critical is a dry history text from some 140 years ago. Removing mention of the book, calling it "unscholarly", sounds rather POV to me. Frotz661 09:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- See Regnery Publishing for the reason. As it says for itself:Regnery Publishing, located in Washington, D.C., is a publisher that specializes in conservative books that they characterize on their website as “contrary to those of 'mainstream' publishers in New York. TruthSpreaderTalk 09:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Carl Ernst, an academic scholar of Islamic studies, states that the Regnery Publishing, a subsidiary of Eagle Publishing and considered by many a leading conservative publishing company, is 'promoted and supported by right-wing organizations, who are perpetuating a type of bigotry similar to anti-Semitism and racial prejudice.' --Aminz 09:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
So what? The book is non-Muslim AND critical, so that makes it eligible, right? --Vladko 15:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Absolutely no! The criticism should be from scholarly literature, otherwise Muslim wikipedians would bring their own proselytizing literature and we will finish up with nothing. And this is according to WP:RS. TruthSpreaderTalk 15:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Using that book as a reference might be problematic but listing it under books "critical" of Islam is not. The distinguished professor didn't impress me very much with his arguments. If REgnery is 'promoted and supported by right-wing organizations' we might keep that in mind but to exclude them is not the right thing as long as articles like "Criticism of Christianity" consist out of material from sources that would have to strive for a long time until reaching up to the level of Spencer. Str1977 (smile back) 16:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that Spencer falls short of the standards we should be applying here, but how much more so does The Sealed Nectar, which several editors have absurdly defended as a reliable source.Proabivouac 17:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Spencer has few academic credentials, and none at all in relation to islam. judging a book exclusively by the POV of an author is not something you're in a position to do as an editor determining its reliability. this point has, of course, been made to you several times i believe. you seem satisfied with echoing the same content dispute anywhere and everywhere, but unfortunately seem averse to resolving it amicably on the relevant talk page as was requested from you a month ago (and repeatedly on occasions since). don't you think it's reasonable to just resolve the dispute instead of prolonging it? ITAQALLAH 13:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- The phrase in the title "the World's Most Intolerant Religion" tells it is a mere POV itself and there can be nothing scholarly about it. Links to such books can be provided in a seperate section marked "Links critical of ...". But then again, knowing the state of affairs these days, there would be thousands, if not millions, of such links. Would you put them all in? If no, how would you chose?Hassanfarooqi 14:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- But that is exactly what we are talking about. Listing among others books critical of Islam - yes, the book is POV by wiki-standards, but so what? Str1977 (smile back) 15:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This book has no merit in an encyclopedia in any way. Please close this obvious discussion. Just waste of time. --Aminz 23:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Why? Because you say so? Please don't let us fall back into former, unproductive, uncooperative, arrogant behaviour. Str1977 (smile back) 09:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
There is no place in wikipedia for Islamophobes (according to Prof.Carl Ernst) like Spencer--Aminz 09:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Says who? There is a place (though it might be a "special place"), even for Islamophobes in WP, just like there is a place for Christianophobes like Richard Dawkins and others. And the "distinguished professor" is not in the position to define with authority who is Islamophobic. You are basically saying that one POV needs to be totally excluded because proponents of the other POV say so. Str1977 (smile back) 10:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Spencer has no degree in Islamic studies whatsoever. his M.A. degree was in the field of early Christianity'. It is not only Ernst who says that Spencer's scholarship and interpretations of Islam are fundamentally flawed - that he supports preconceived notions through selection bias - that he lacks genuine understanding. His books are not academic. We are supposed to mention academic POVs not Islamophobe's POVs. --Aminz 10:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Again this notion that only academic books might be mentioned. I don't dispute that this books might be highly problematic and don't suppose to use it as a source for controversial stuff (though I see that The Great Esposito is just as bad in a different way, degrees or not) but your notion has no support in WP policies. Str1977 (smile back) 15:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Link for Criticism of Muhammad has been added
I see its going to be hard for some people to leave the link Criticism of Muhammad on this page. Well guess what? It will stay here. If you have an issue, discuss it here and explain why this link should not be here. ALSO keep in mind that the Criticism of Islam link exists in Islam. Good luck in trying to take this link out but sorry, it will stay in. --JohnsAr 01:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Please vote
Please give your vote there Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Third_holiest_site_in_Islam. Be careful about your vote and before voting read the article (other than introduction) and see the disucssion too. Also see the Al-aqsa article too (that already exist). --- ابراهيم 16:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- ^ a b c Esposito, John. 1998. Islam: the Straight Path, extended edition. Oxford university press, p.17
- ^ a b Encyclopedia of Religion, Second Edition, Lindsay Jones, Muhammad article, ISBN 0-02-865742-X
- ^ Esposito, “Islam: the straight path”, extended edition, Oxford university press, p.10-11
- ^ W. N. Arafat, "Did Prophet Muhammad ordered 900 Jews killed?", Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland(JRAS), pp. 100-107, 1976.
- ^ Watt in Encyclopedia of Islam, Banu Qurayza Article
- ^ Watt in Encyclopedia of Islam, Banu Qurayza Article
- ^ Qurayza article, Encyclopedia of the Qur'an, vol. 4, p.334
- ^ Welch in Encyclopedia of Islam, Muhammad Article