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Talk:Srebrenica massacre

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Latest comment: 18 years ago by Fairview360 in topic Unprofor

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Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 20:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

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Editing

Latest comment: 18 years ago31 comments6 people in discussion

Just a thought: it seems to me that this article about the Srebrenica massacre/genocide needs editing; it is far too long. Remember, these are supposed to by encyclopedic articles, not book drafts. Perhaps interested parties can remove the 'surplus' to a newly created article entitled, Background to the Srebrenica Massacre? Politis 15:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Politis, I don't agree with you about moving the Background to a separate article. First of all, in my understanding, articles should be about specific subjects, not about the background to specific subjects. Perhaps, though, it could be possible to have a separate article on the Bosnian War - eastern Bosnia or similar. Also, part of the challenge of writing a good article is to be concise for the benefit of the reader. Although the Background may be too long, I think that problem is more pressing in the main description of the massacre. Here it could be better to try to shorten and focus on the most important parts. But let's start at the top, with the Introduction and the Background.KarlXII 14:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


I think this sounds good. I'm not sure if it is possible thoug, given the very aggressive attitud of some of the editors here.KarlXII 09:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

[Big sigh] I know, that is why I am not offering to cut it back ;-) Can the current 'edit warriors' agree between them for a cut back? I mean, the article is about Srebrenica and the case for 'genocide' has been made quite clearly by the international community - even if many of us disagree and many of us are also aware of Serbian suffering, that is the situation and it must be respected. In any case, it seems to me that a generous compromise has already been achieve by excluding the term 'genocide' from the title of the article. Politis 12:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


How about deleting the Role of Bosniak forces on the ground section (I'm not sure how relevant it is), or at least summarizing it? Now it's just a really long quote from some UN publication/report.KarlXII 22:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


I checked just the first reference (for Federal list of missing persons) and found that the link, which claims to be to the Federal Commission for Missing Persons; "Preliminary List of Missing and Killed in Srebrenica"; 2005 , in fact appears to be to the site of some unidentifiable (it's all in [serbocroatian)] http://www.srebrenica-zepa.ba/srebrenica/news.php NGO.

  1. It is very difficult for someone who does not speak/read serbocroatian to evaluate this source and the organization which is behind it.
  2. It would be better to link to an authoritative source stating, in English, that the Federal list of missing persons contains 8,000 or so names.

Your thoughts?KarlXII 14:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Some comments concerning the participation of Serbian special forces units:

  1. is this information crucial enough to warrant a mention in the introduction? Would it be better placed and expanded on in the same section as that which deals with the possible participation of Greek and other volunteers?
  2. the reference refers to an article from March 2006 which recounts amendments to indictments against some individuals for allegedly leading these special forces units in connection with the Srebrenica massacre
  3. are there any other good sources regarding the participation of these units in the massacre?
  4. wherever the text is placed, should it be preceeded by an "alleged" or "possible" or similar wording?

KarlXII 15:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

The role of Serbia in the Bosnia war is quite relevant. The presence of forces from Serbia is indicative of the Srebrenica massacre not being an isolated incident but rather part of a larger dynamic and therefore belongs in the introduction. Fairview360 04:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


The introduction mentions that the Dutchbat forced "did not prevent the massacre" and cites p. 18 and 26 in the icty case. That wording insinuates that the Dutchbat soldiers could have prevented the massacre if they had wanted to/tried. This is not supported by the reference. A better wording would be "were unable to prevent the massacre".KarlXII 15:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

"were unable to prevent the massacre" is debatable. We can state with complete confidence the fact that the massacre occurred and that the Dutchbat mission was to preserve Srebrenica as a safe haven. The stated fact that Dutchbat soldiers did not prevent the massacre still leaves room for a discussion of what they could have actually done given what tepid support they received, etc. Fairview360 04:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Concerning the numbers killed, the introduction again uses the missing persons figure referring to the serbocroatian language NGO site (see my comment above). Wouldn't it be better to use the figures mentioned in the icty case:

  1. "experts were able to conservatively determine that the minimum number of bodies in the graves exhumed was 2028" of which "the majority of the victims were executed"(p. 80) and
  2. it then concludes by saing that "The Trial Chamber is satisfied that, in July 1995, following the take-over of Srebrenica, Bosnian Serb forces executed several thousand Bosnian Muslim men. The total number is likely to be within the range of 7,000 -8,000 men." (p. 84).

Given that the icty document is probably the best/most authoritative source available, should't the article strive to use it's interpretation/wording/presentation of events as much as possible (as opposed to using those of native language NGOs)? KarlXII 15:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


In the intro. do we really need the concluding citation, or at least all of it? Since the intr should be about summarising the article, wouldn't it be enough to simply state that the icty judget it to be genocide? The judgement is covered in detail later in the article anyways.KarlXII 10:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

The ICTY citation aptly summarizes what happened which is exactly what an introduction is supposed to do. Fairview360 04:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

KarlXII, sorry for the delay. Your observations seem well researched across the web. The article needs to focus on what the title says. The plain fact as you are proposing, seem to me neither anti-Serbian, nor disrespective towards the Bosniaks. Perhaps you should go ahead with editing out some chunks, and hope that our friends understand the need for a fair and succinct article. Politis 12:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Politis and others, OK I will use the weekend to go ahead with the edits proposed above. I hope no one has any issues with them. I'd especially like some help with finding an official English languge source for the list of missing persons, or, even better in my mind, an updated reference which mentions the numbers missing. Until then I propose to use the icty figures although they are by now almost a year old.KarlXII 14:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
Making suggestions at 10:46 and then saying OK I am now going to engage in wholesale edits to the intro at 14:07 the same day does not constitute engaging in good faith discussions. 6 hours does not provide enough time to the editors of this article to respond. Fairview360 04:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
In reply to the points raised by Karl:
  • The "Role of Bosniak forces on the ground" section — I agree that it should be removed or rigorously shortened.
  • The federal list of missing persons — while we prefer English sources, the fact that this source is written in another language is in itself no reason to remove it; see Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Sources in languages other than English.
  • "participation of Serbian special forces units" — I agree that this needn't be mentioned in the lead section. Some more supporting sources would be useful, but it's not necessary to wait for a conviction. Regarding "alleged" or "possible": well, that depends; if most reliable sources agree that Serbian special forces did participate, then our language should reflect that. The role of the Scorpions has been discussed before, see Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive5#Scorpions from Serbia.
  • "Dutchbat forces did not prevent the massacre" — I don't think that this implies that Dutchbat were able to prevent it. It may suggest it to some people, which is why I prefer the formulation "… 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time, but their presence did not prevent the massacre." In any case, I think that the text "were unable to prevent the massacre" which you prefer is worse; this clearly says that Dutchbat could not have prevented it whatever they would have done, which is not supported by the references as far as I can tell.
  • the numbers killed — this was discussed at Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive8#post protected discussions and I think that that discussion shows that the range 7000-8000 mentioned by the ICTY is outdated.
  • the concluding citation in the intro — I agree that it shouldn't be there. I seem to remember that I said so but others disagreed. However, I can't find the discussion anymore in the archives.
Karl, I am very grateful that you posted this points for discussion on the talk page. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
This pattern of a lot of animated activity, apparently reasonable suggestions across a wide range of issues with a reference to issues that have already been well covered (eg 7,000-8,000 dead), and then wilful and rapid intervention to make contentious changes is rather reminiscent of Osli73. It's a very successful tactic for tying up a lot of other people's energy without being identified immediately as someone with destructive intent.
Back in the summer I worked my way over the whole article to see what suggestions might be worth making, because it is a bit sprawling and could certainly do with a bit of restructuring, but I lost the thread of it with the last round of onslaughts.
Jitse, I have to say that however legitimate you consider substantial revisions at fairly short or minimal notice to be, they do convey the impression of someone with an agenda. --Opbeith 22:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
What is reminiscent of Osli73 is using the argument that the article is too long as justification for deleting a few essential sentences in the introduction. That makes no sense. I believe Opbeith has accurately described Osli73/Karl12 as having an agenda. And, for the record, while we will all have our disagreements perhaps passionate at times, I believe Jitse is motivated by a genuine desire for fairness. Fairview360 23:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Jitse, thanks for the reply. My thoughts on your comments are:

  1. OK, let's remove the "Role of the Bosniak forces on the Ground section, or if someone cares to, shorten it considerably
  2. the main reason I brought up the reference is that I can't tell wether or not it really is the federal list of missing persons and the site it's on doesn't seem to be an 'official' one. I would prefer if it were possible to find a better, pref. English language, source. Maybe it would be better to find a recent English language comment on the list, on saying something to the effect of "the fed. list of missing persons contains some xxx names" and a date.
  3. about the special forces, see below
  4. I think your wording is better
  5. if "an estimated 8,000" is better, then let's say that. I just thought it would be good to use the icty judgement since it's such a solid source which can't be questioned, while the other figures are just quotes from newspapers and general media, which I imagine would carry less weight
  6. my thinking was that the citation just repeated what the text said so that it wasn't really adding information

Again, thank's for your comments. KarlXII 20:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Just 2c for "Serbian special forces units": I agree that it's too undue weight to be put in the intro. However, the "Serbian special forces unit" is a moot definition. Those were dogs of war sponsored and to a good extent controlled by Serbian Secret Service (SDB), funded partly by SDB but mostly by smuggling and looting. Only in 1996 they become officially incorporated in security system of Serbia, and at the time of Srebrenica massacre they were just officially "volunteers". I started expanding the Jedinica za Specijalne Operacije (bad name, I know) article, but if you can read Serbian, please read the extensive coverage in Vreme, referenced there, which covers all dark aspects of the Unit and its predecessors, from its roots, through the wars, to Đinđić assassination. Duja► 13:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Duja, thanks for the info. I know nothing about the Scoprions or wether or about their or the SDBs role in the massacre. I just felt that it wasn't something you would normally put into an intro. Better to develop this in a special section of the article if it is warranted.

Also, sorry about not following through with the edits over the weekend as promised. It is just that I've been busy elsewhere. I'll try to get to it soon though. KarlXII 20:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Reply




OK, here's my suggestion for a shorter introduction:

The Srebrenica Massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 [1] Bosniak males in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by the Army of Republika Srpska under the command of general Ratko Mladić. The United Nations had previously declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area" and 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time, but their presence did not prevent the massacre.
The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II and it is the first legally established case of genocide in Europe. In the landmark ruling "Prosecutor v. Krstic", the Appeals Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) ruled that the Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide.

Is there anything else we should add? Maybe something about the attempts to hide the bodies or about the excavations? I also prepared this text describing the massacre, but now I'm not sure where to put it:

Following the Bosnian Serb army's takeover of Srebrenica on 11 July 1995 an estimated 20,000-25,000 residents had sought refuge at the UNPROFOR base at Potocari, outside of the town while an estimated 10,000-15,000 Bosniak men had sought to escape to government controlled territory north of Srebrenica. While the women, children and elderly were sent on buses to government controlled territory while the men, including those captured from those trying to escape, were sent to various locations around Srebrenica were they were executed between 13-17 July. Following the massacre.

Your reactions, pls? KarlXII 10:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

OK, so I'm going ahead with the changes.KarlXII 00:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Fairview (and anyone else out there), I don't think it it acceptable to not participate at all in the discussion on the talk page and then revert the outcomes from that discussion by referring to some historical discussion. If you don't participate or give input, don't think you own the page.KarlXII 01:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

I fully agree. The article is not frozen, but constantly evolving, like the rest of Wikipedia. There has been a lot of discussion about it, which means that we have to be careful and not change too much, but there is no reason at all to prohibit any changes. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 02:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
Jitse, nice to hear that. I knew the article was sensitive to some but though that discussing changes on the talk page first and giving everyone interested in the article ample time to respons would be sufficient. I don't have the interest or the time to spend on petty revert wars with people who think they 'own' the article and that it is 'perfect' as is.KarlXII 02:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
So Osli73 and KarlXII both are a name plus a number, both have an interest in Sweden, both have an interest in the former Yugoslavia, both make the same arguments, and both want to delete entire sections of the intro, but we'll just ignore that for now. Let's just forget that extensive sockpuppetry has been the bane of this article. The wholesale deletion of portions of the intro are not justified. The only edit I see, that is something that was not fully discussed and agreed upon before, is whether the intro is going to say "at least" 8000 or "an estimated" 8000. I would agree with an estimated 8000 and will change it now. But there is no reason why editors who have worked on this article for sometime -- as opposed to transient sockpuppets -- should have to tolerate the wholesale unjustified deletion of accurate fully documented statements. Fairview360 03:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
Fairview, you cannot dismiss it like this. As I said, I agree with Karl comments, he justified the deletion, and you should be willing to discuss it instead of just stating out of the blue that it's not justified. I'd be very disappointed to learn that I'm wrong when I said that you would engage in discussion.
Osli and Karl may be the same, and they may not be. It does not matter. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 04:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
Jitse, I know that you are not a sockpuppet. If KarlXII is a sockpuppet about to take us down a road we have already traveled, then his being a sockpuppet is indeed relevant. But OK, I'll let that go and respond at face value, again, to what is being expressed here. Let's start with this statement from the ICTY which so eloquently describes what happened in Srebrenica and gives the context. Why would someone put so much effort into having it deleted from the intro?
"By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims [Bosniaks], the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the forty thousand Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity."
Please explain. Fairview360 05:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


The section quoted by Fairview360 concisely and authoritatively explains why the massacre took place and its wider significance. That is why it remains central to the Introduction. --Opbeith 22:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Editing - the background

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Although the background to the massacre deserves to be properly explained, I feel that it can be done more concisely and with fewer sub-sections (which, if nothing else, just makes the TOC longer). Would anyone object to, or want to contribute to, a new, more concise version of the background section including the "Safe area" section? KarlXII 00:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Warning: KarlXII is probably Osli73's sockpuppet

Latest comment: 18 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

An analysis of KarlXII and Osli73's edit history strongly suggests that KarlXII is Osli73's sockpuppet. I believe it would serve the best interests of wikipedia if an administrator conducted a Usercheck on KarlXII and Osli73 as well as review their edit histories for comparison. If it is true that KarlXII is a sockpuppet, good faith discussions are essentially impossible. It is not realistic to expect legitimate users to attempt good faith discussions with sockpuppets. Fairview360 06:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Relevant decision by the Kosovo arbitration committee:
7) Ilir pz, Hipi Zhdripi, Vezaso, Dardanv, Ferick, Laughing Man, Osli73, and Tonycdp are placed on standard revert parole for one year. Each is limited to one revert per article per week, excepting obvious vandalism. Further, each is required to discuss any content reversions on the article's talk page.
Pass 6-0 at 02:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

You are more than welcome to carry our any type of investigations you would like. I know that you levelled the sockpuppet ackusation before and I ignored it but did forward it to osli who warned me about this article being sensitive. On the basis of this and of jitses suggestion I took extra care to discuss everything on the talk page. However, if this is the type of behavior which is going to characterise this article then I will focus my efforts elsewhere.KarlXII 08:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Simple question, KarlXII: what is your actual relationship to Osli73?

I've been tied up trying to sort out the havoc caused by a virus on my computer. A lot of my time has been wasted over the last three weeks by the various effects and repercussions. I'd hate to see the prospect of further time wasting by a reincarnation of Osli73 but I suspect that what I see developing is the same pattern of objectively reasonable comments serving as a Trojan horse for much less constructive interventions. --Opbeith 22:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

KarlXII is destroying Srebrenica Genocide article

Latest comment: 18 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Where are admins to protect integrity of wikipedia's encyclopedia? We can't let people who deny facts (e.g. who deny Srebrenica Genocide, or who deny WWII Holocaust) to participate in these topics, because they have nothing valid to contribute. They delete important facts of the case, and spam articles with discredited leftist-apologist make-believe propaganda. If they love Milosevic, Hitler, Saddam Hussein and other dictators so much, then they should move either to Serbia, Germany, or Iraq; and they would probably not be welcomed even there.

So, let this be final wake up call for wikipedia's admins to protect Srebrenica Genocide article from these vandals. Bosniak 20:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

OK, this does it. I have been nothing but polite and open about my edits on this page. Now I'm getting accusations like "sockpuppet" from Fairview and "love Milosevic" from you. What I do think the admin should do is to do something about the tone used and the aggression level here. And you, I'm going to report for slinging personal insults. As for F-view, I encourage him to investigate as his accusations are becoming very irritating.KarlXII 09:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Hi KarlXII, you should stop treating Wikipedia as your personal homepage where you can delete important paragraphs and vandalize article(s) as you see fit. Please go again and read what is wikipedia all about and stop destroying what has been built for the past 12 months. Bosniak 23:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Ivanisevic

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Bosniak, earlier this year, I believe it was Emir Arvin (?) who submitted an extremely well argued and well documented account of Ivanesic and the genesis of Belgrade Centre for Investigating Crimes Committed against the Serbs. If you can find Emir's submission, it may help you document statements regarding Ivanisevic. Fairview360 01:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Hi Fairview, I will send you results of a research about chetnik "Mr. Ivanisevic" and his made up and overblown research about alleged crimes against Serbs. The research was made by another American girl, a friend of mine. Bosniak 06:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Unprofor

Latest comment: 18 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

F-view, what is your problem with the text (suggested by Jitse Niesen, not me)? Are you the admin for this page? Do you control who is allowed to add content and edit here?KarlXII 16:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Karl73, twice you have said that you are not interested in editing this article which tells me your commitment to this article is flaky. So why would I want to spend my time discussing this with a user who has only a fleeting interest in the article, who I still believe to be a sockpuppet or someone whose approach to this article is identical to Osli73 (a sockpuppy if you will), and who can't decide whether to stay or go? Your being a potential sockpuppet/sockpuppy is less relevant than your tempermental whimsical engagement. So what is it Karl73? Have you made up your mind? Which statements of yours are we to believe to be true? In any case, for the record, I do discuss my edits even with those I believe to be -- an opinion I am entitled to -- johnny-come-lately, should-I-stay-or-should-I-go sockpuppies.
I would be more than happy to discuss with Jitse -- an editor who has invested a lot of his time and energy in this article and has shown a long term commitment to its quality -- his preference for the intro reading "their presence did not prevent the massacre". My impression is that Jitse has a preference though he sees "they did not" and "their presence did not" as both essentially acceptable. Meanwhile, Jitse sees your suggestion as unacceptable. Jitse stated to you: "In any case, I think that the text 'were unable to prevent the massacre' which you prefer is worse; this clearly says that Dutchbat could not have prevented it whatever they would have done, which is not supported by the references as far as I can tell." But I believe we can agree that Jitse is perfectly capable of arguing for his suggested edits and does not need you as his advocate.
Lastly, your questions are clearly rhetorical and do not warrant a direct reply. -- Fairview
Fairview said on my talk page:

In the following sentence, I believe the antecedents of the pronoun "they" are both the UN and the Dutch peacekeepers. "The United Nations had previously declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area" and 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time, but they did not prevent the massacre."

This is certainly not how I read it; I think that "they" refers to the peacekeepers. I have no problems with the reading "The UN did not prevent the massacre."
We should be able to lift the ambiguity with a slight formulation. I change it to "The United Nations had previously declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area", but they did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time." -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Jitse, good job. That makes it clear that "they" refers to the UN. Fairview360 12:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Reply


Jitse, I disagree with your most recent edit. The problem ins't with wether "they" refers to the UN or the Dutch peacekeepers. Rather, it is that the sentence "They did not prevent the massacre" insinuates that they, wether it be the UN or the Dutch peacekeepers, could have but for some reason didn't chose to prevent the massacre. Although I am aware that there are those who believe this, I think a more neutral wording would be the one you proposed earlier:

"their presence did not prevent the massacre"

KarlXII 12:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

It is not an insunation. It is a fact. The Dutch troops pleaded for airstrikes. The UN leadership decided not to launch them. In the words of Kofi Annan: "No one laments more than we the failure of the international community to take decisive action to halt the suffering and end a war that had produced so many victims." Fairview360 14:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
"The Committee is convinced that by massive strikes along the southern road, the only road leading to Srebrenica, the UN and NATO could have stopped the offensive."
Report by the parliamentary committee on the events in Srebrenica
National Assembly (French Parliament)
http://www.msf.fr/documents/srebrenica/Conclusions.pdf
"A Dutch battalion of UN peacekeepers (Dutchbat) failed to prevent the killing of 7,000 Muslims when the town was overrun by Serb forces in 1995."
BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1921482.stm
“U.N. peacekeeping officials were unwilling to heed requests for support from their own forces stationed within the enclave, thus allowing Serb forces easily to overrun it and, without interference from U.N. soldiers, to carry out systematic mass executions…”
US Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe testimony
Researcher HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH/HELSINKI
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1995_hr/c951206l.htm


Fview, so you agree that it was not the Dutchbat troops who were unwilling to stop the massacre (and cannot even be taken for granted that they knew a massacre would take place prior to the Serb attack on Srebrenica)? I think the BBC quote pretty well presents the issue. I would be happy with that. KarlXII 12:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

To clarify, KarlXII now says he would be "happy with" the following statement from the BBC: "A Dutch battalion of UN peacekeepers (Dutchbat) failed to prevent the killing of 7,000 Muslims when the town was overrun by Serb forces in 1995." Therefore, if "they" refers to the Dutch Battalion, KarlXII would be "happy with" the statement "They failed to prevent the killing of 7,000 Muslims." Given that "killing 7,000 Muslims" is a massacre, KarlXII would presumably be comfortable with the statement: "They failed to prevent the massacre." Given that that statement conveys the massacre as being the direct result of the Dutch Battalion's failure, one would think that KarlXII would prefer the more forgiving factual statement: "They did not prevent the massacre." But no, KarlXII strongly disagrees with that statement. (memories of Osli73) Fairview360 17:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Article is a Disgrace

Latest comment: 18 years ago16 comments3 people in discussion

I cannot believe the blatant bias and inaccuracy of crucial sections of this article, and its disgusting attempt to make a Hollywood movie out of an awful event from the war.

Some significant faults:

1) The simple use of the word "Denial" (in section "Denial of the massacre") as opposed to "Controversy" has enormous negative connotations. Denial is used as a word often used describing one who wishes to not face the truth. Therefore, the article claims that the truth is: a certain number of Bosniak men were killed (~8000) and anyone who disputes this is in denial, or refusing to face the truth.

There is significant proof that disputes the numbers provided in this article, therefore, this is a "Controversy", not a case of fact and denial.

Instead of "Denial of the massacre", that section of the article should be named "Controversy Over Casualties" or something similar to that.

In addition, since these figures are disputed, the Srebrenica incident cannot be called the "largest mass murder in Europe since World War II". In order to give it such a label, one must know, without controversy, the number of people killed. If contesting figures (which are equally legitimate) on the number of men killed are considered, the incident ceases to be the "largest mass murder in Europe since World War II".

2) Close to the beginning of the article, there is a section on "Ethnic Cleansing". However, the "Ethnic Cleansing" which occurred prior to the incident at Srebrenica is blatantly ignored.

I am referring to the "Ethnic Cleansing" that took place in neighbouring Serbian villages, where Serbian civilians were "Ethnically Cleansed". (And not just the men interestingly...)

The number of Serbs killed during this act of "Ethnic Cleansing" may be equal or even greater than the number of Bosniak men killed during the Srebrenica incident. Since both figures are disputed, it is almost impossible to know. However, it is no more likely that more Bosniak men were killed, therefore, that assumption must not be made! (There is much evidence against it, this being an entirely different argument.)

This act of "Ethnic Cleansing" against Serbs in surrounding villages is referred to in a section close to the end of the (too long to be an encyclopaedia) article. This is a major error, since this act of "Ethnic Cleansing" was one of the primary causes of the Srebrenica incident.

To downplay it, and almost leave it out of the article entirely, is to ignore that Srebrenica was an act of retaliation and an attempt to end the numerous attacks on Serbian villages by Bosniak forces.

3) I could go on, but this article is massive and full of factual and organizational errors. To dispute them all would take far too long.

This article is a disgrace to Wikipedia. It should definitely not be removed, since it is an important historical event, but it needs massive alterations.

Stop The Lies 07:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Stop_The_LiesReply


Stop the Lies, although I can agree that this article is not entirely NPOV, the problems are mainly related to wording and which information is presented and how, rather than the information as such. Its things like saying "guerilla-style counter attacks" when describing Bosniak military operations and "offensives" when describing Serb military operations, describing Serb villages as "military bases", saying that the UN "did not prevent the massacre", etc. My comments on your issues raised:

==>Most media? Encyclopaedias aren't regurgitations of media claims, they are factual sources, meant to illustrate the truth regarding things such as historic events. That is why the fact that, (as you said) "it can be argued that the figure is higher or lower" is actually not beside the point, but rather, IS the point. Stop The Lies 11:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Stop_The_LiesReply

I'm afraid you are mistaken. The core policies of Wikipedia are clear that Wikipedia should only reproduce statements of other sources and that we do not strive to find the truth. For instance, Wikipedia:Verifiability says: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" (emphasis in original). -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • largest mass murder in Europe since WWII: regardless of wether the number killed is 7000 or 8000 the massacre certainly was the largest in Europe since WII. This is also how it is typically presented.KarlXII 10:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

==>Once again, how things are "typically presented" are of no importance to an encyclopaedia. The truth is what is relevant. ==>If the number killed is slightly under 2000 as some sources claim (while providing evidence), then the 'massacre' ceases to be the "largest in Europe since WII". The fact that this cannot be disproved is a legitimate argument for the removal of such an arbitrary phrase. Stop The Lies 11:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Stop_The_LiesReply

There are very few reliable sources that claim a number under 2000. As Wikipedia:Neutral point of view says: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • ethnic cleansing: apart from the fact that the takeover of Srebrenica and the following massacre are examples of ethnic cleansing themselves, ethnic cleansing taking place prior to the June 1995 deserves to be mentioned in the article since it provides background to understanding the massacre. It is relevant background information.KarlXII 10:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

==>Agreed Stop The Lies 11:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Stop_The_LiesReply

  • ethnic cleansing of Serbs: I believe ethnic cleansing of Serbs in the Srebrenica region prior to the massacre is described in the article, as it also provides relevant background information to the massacre. Its relevance should be pointed out, since it is an often used explanation for the massacre (especially by Serb sources, but also by some 'western' media - again, remember that Wikipedia is about conveying how an issue is usually presented, not about original research).KarlXII 10:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

==>Yes it is described. However (1) The section is too small when compared proportionally to the rest of the article (2) Portrayed as a controversy when there is sufficient evidence to state it as fact (more in fact, than there is to state the Srebrenica massacre as fact) and (3) it is placed at the end of the article, a MAJOR error. The section should be placed close to the front, not only because it occured before the Srebrenica incident, but because it is the primary cause of it. Stop The Lies 11:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Stop_The_LiesReply

  • deniers: here I only agree to a certain extent. Yes, not all those who disagree with the "over 8000" number should be dubbed "genocide deniers". Certainly, there are those who absolutely deny that any massacre took place at all. To me, "Genocide deniers" is a label applied to a group by its opponents in a debate, and therefore POV/inappropriate. Better to describe the debate which has taken place (and maybe still is taking place) regarding the massacre. Maybe under a heading like "Srebrenica massacre debate".KarlXII 10:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

==>There are 4 different takes on the Srebrenica incident: (1) It happened, and the numbers claimed by this article are correct (2) It happened, but the numbers stated by this article are incorrect because they do not have sufficient supporting evidence and are, therefore, arbitrary (3) It happened, but the numbers stated by this article are incorrect because they have been proven lower, and (4) It did not happen. ==>As one can see, there are two cases where one can argue that the figures presented are incorrect, yet that same person fully agrees the event took place. Going by other Wikipedia articles containing controversial topics, an (in my opinion) appropriate, neutral, and objective heading is commonly: "Controversy Regarding ___ " or "Controversy Surrounding ___ " etc. Stop The Lies 11:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Stop_The_LiesReply

Remember, Wikipedia is about presenting the common understanding of an issue, rather than original research (truth) about it. KarlXII 10:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

==> I disagree. What is the point of having facts presented, when they may not be facts at all but common fallacies or mass misconceptions? Stop The Lies 11:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Stop_The_LiesReply


Stop The Lies, again, the point is that Wikipedia is not the place to 'set history right'. It is not about 'original research' but about the common view. However, if there is a considerable minority view, as in this case, these should also be presented (in a NPOV way). All major sources use the 7000 to 8000 killed figure, state that there was considerable ethnic cleansing (on both sides, but primarily of Bosniaks). Many sources site it as the largest mass murder in European history since WWII.
What I think is wrong with the article is that it in many cases is POV in its selection of the facts and how it presents them.KarlXII 12:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
  1. ^ In its August 2001 judgement against Krstic the ICTY states that "The total number is likely to be within the range of 7,000 -8,000 men" (see para. 84 of ICTY Trial Chamber Judgement "Prosecutor vs Krstic"; in July 2005 Bosnia's Federal Commission for Missing Persons published a provisional list of 8,106 persons that went missing and/or were killed in and around Srebrenica in the summer of 1995, the composition of the list is discussed here
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