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Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)

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Latest comment: 18 years ago by Ishu in topic Universal conventions
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New survey to clarify "use common names" guideline/convention

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is a new survey to clarify the meaning/applicability of the "use common names" guideline/convention. See WT:NC#Proposal: clarify meaning of "use most common name" guideline. --Serge 00:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Convention for Brazil

Latest comment: 18 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Hi, I'm the co-founder of the project "Subdivisões do Brasil" (Brazilian subdivisions) at Portuguese Wikipedia and the author of more than 5.000 Brazilian ___location maps (almost all used here).

I propose that we use the same rules for Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo without exception. The Brazilian states aticles must have a higher priority than their respective capitals. Sorry but my capacity to write in English is very limited. What I'm trying to say is: Rio de Janeiro should concerns the State of Rio de Janeiro and Rio de Janeiro, Rio de Janeiro (or Rio de Janeiro City) the city.

I really don't understand why this is an exception. I belive that is because this rule was simply based in current practice (check this) without any discussion (I don't find anyone). This convention should not be different from the other countries.

I'm saying this only now because this convention is generating a lot of trouble in Commons.

I hope we will be able to change this as quickly as possible.

Raphael.lorenzeto 14:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it was me simply writing down the current practice. I believe both exceptions are a wart; since when you say "Rio de Janeiro" or "São Paulo" it's ambiguous which one you are refering to (and it is usually disambiguated by the context), I believe it would be much more natural for both to be disambiguation pages, and the actual articles to be at (city) and (state). Answering to Talk:Rio de Janeiro (state)#Rename to "Rio de Janeiro", the principle of least surprise would not be violated (in fact, using a disambiguation page is much less surprising when you want information about the other page). --cesarb 00:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I'd leave these two as they are -- it seems to me that if we are going to bother with a separate rule for primary meanings, then it should apply here. In English, these terms apply to the cities absolutely overwhelmingly. The principle of least surprise certainly applies, in the same way as for any primary usage -- if I enter a term which overwhelmingly has a single meaning, and Wikipedia's not sure what I'm talking about, then I'm pretty likely to be surprised by that. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
The naming conventions on the English-language Wikipedia specify that an article is to be named according to the most common form used in English, or, lacking that, in the original language. Cities in English-speaking countries, and noticeably the examples given in the original message, usually already have it figured out, by having, for instance, "New York City" to distinguish from the state of New York, already incorporated into their names, or at least into the common usage — that is, this is not something we created ourselves, but rather it is reflecting the correct naming of those places. In the case of a Brazilian city such as Rio de Janeiro, and the state of Rio de Janeiro, there's no such usage in English, since they refer to the city as "Rio de Janeiro", and the same goes for the state. "Rio de Janeiro City" is not in use in any current form of the English language, so we would be making this up ourselves, which we cannot do. In cases like this, the regular form of disambiguation is to assign the main name ("Rio de Janeiro") to whichever subject is more commonly associated with it: in this case, the city; and use a disambiguated title for the other: hence "Rio de Janeiro (state)" for the article on the state of Rio de Janeiro. Furthermore, I don't see a need to create a disambiguation page for just two articles each ("Rio de Janeiro" and "São Paulo") . Redux 12:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Style used in local paper

Latest comment: 18 years ago61 comments7 people in discussion

I noticed today that my local paper uses an interesting style for locations. They use city, state and for a few places, probably the AP list, just city. So cities are always listed in a larger font at the beginning of an article. This also has the effect of showing what they intended when they only use city. No confusion between city and state. Vegaswikian 19:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Yes, but again this is a local paper using a local habit, and one not necessarily understood by the international community. THEPROMENADER 00:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Your disagreement is not with this page, but with WP:MOS:If there is a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, use that dialect. If you can get consensus to change that, fine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I don't understand the original point, but I understand this even less. This isn't a dialect issue. Gene Nygaard 16:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
My understanding is that Vegaswikian is citing his local paper's datelines, which follow AP style, as a confirmation of usage for Tariq's proposal, Part II. Promenader then objects that this is not worldwide usage. If Vegaswikian is getting a paper written in American English, this is a dialect issue; Vegaswikian is citing an AE source, and Promenader objects because it is AE. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I don't think the "dialect" analogy flies either vis-à-vis the comma'd state disambiguataion - "habit" would describe it better. I don't object to it per se, but I do find that porting local habits to a media accessible the world over a bit narrow-minded : local habits are for locals, and understood best (voir "decoded best") by the same.
After a bit of thought, I think much of the problem would be solved if Wiki would adopt one form of disambiguation: this would eliminate all possiblility for confusion, as a reader would "get" the difference between article subject and disambiguation tool at most after looking at an article or two. Comma or parentheses, I don't care - but it has to be cross-board to be clear to all. THEPROMENADER 18:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Adding a person's middle initial, for example, might also be a form of disambiguation. Or the presence or absense of diacritics on letters. Or the addition of a word neither with a comma nor with parentheses. Or the inclusion of a surname, for all those wanna-be soccer stars who think that if they can convince people that they can get by with one name, that means they have made it big. Or lots of other possibilities. But city, state is more than disambiguation. That's why you run into opposition to these continual requested moves and other "votes" and the like. Gene Nygaard 19:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
And all those are preferred to parentheses; because they can be linked to without the pipe trick. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
No, because the person's middle initial - or second surname - or title for that matter - is still his name. The name of a state is nothing of the kind to a city - "State" is disambiguation and must be presented clearly as such.
The "pipe trick" argument is also a secondary justification/argument, and is on a technical detail that can be dealt with technically. Reader comprehension cannot be "fixed" the same way.
Excuses, but I have never requested any move of anything even remotely "City, State" - but I do see the method's shortcomings, and I have since a couple of months been trying to reason some sort of Wiki-wide solution - but it seems that the question has been in debate since so long, with the same players, that there are firmly-entrenched "sides" to this story now. The most opposition will be from contributors enjoying the "comfortable majority" of those comfortable with contributing in using their comfortably familiar local practices - this is Engish Wiki, after all. THEPROMENADER 20:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
You still seem to be a little confused. A name, as any good dictionary will tell you, is a term used to refer to something. For example , from Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1). Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/name (accessed: December 15, 2006): the first definition is a word or a combination of words by which a person, place, or thing, a body or class, or any object of thought is designated, called, or known. "Cit, State" certainly qualifies as a name for these places, and even as a common name (although perhaps not exactly the most common name). The crucial difference between using an alternate common name for an article as opposed to disambiguating with a parenthetical term is that with the parenthetical form, it is nearly certain that very, very few people who are not familiar with Wikipedia practices would try to find Springfield, Illinois by typing in Springfield (Illinois) -- but the converse is in fact a very common way to refer to that place. older ≠ wiser 21:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Hardly confused, so save that one, thank you : ) Stating the definition of "name" does not change the fact that "State" is in no way "City's" name - no matter the reason the name of the state is added to it. If anything, it is you who is confus'ing the issue in your reply - "common practice" ≠ "name".
Of course people would not write anything with parentheses - but this is an encyclopaedia, not a local newspaper or newscast. The form of disambiguation doesn't matter as long as it can be identified as disambiguation - local practices do not matter - and are not always understood - by those foreign to them.
With all due respect, I don't see finding any (mix of) argument(s) possible to justify the presence of an everyday local "common practice" as an international encyclopaedia convention to be in the interests of Wiki or its readers - as I've said before, it seems to have the contributor's own habits at heart. THEPROMENADER 10:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, but common practice is precisely one of the defining characteristics of a name in the context of Wikipedia. Wikipedia does not give preference to formal or official names. You continue to refuse to recognize that "City, State" IS a name for these places and is commonly used as such. Although you clearly disagree, I do not see any policy or guideline in Wikipedia that deprecates local usage in the way that you seem to be advocating. In fact, I think imposing such a top-down policy would be in many ways exactly contrary to how Wikipedia works. So long as the names are common English language usage and are easily recognizable by any person with a moderate fluency in the language, I don't see that there is any basis to object merely because it falls under your idiosyncratic conception of local usage. 14:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I think we're talking about your own interpretation of what a name is - and I don't understand how you can deny that the name of a State is not that of a City. What is "New York"? Well, to make a precision you're either going to have to locate it or add an adjective or some other description - but that doesn't mean that this addition becomes the locale's name - I don't see how the idea can even be considered as fact.
Wiki works the way it wants to - it some see a problem, they propose to fix it, and should consensus turn in favour of the solution, it becomes the "new Wiki way". Let's not discourage change on a suggestion of Wiki's inflexibility - it doesn't exist. On the other hand, if a majority of Wiki contributors originate from one country, chances are that whatever practice they choose will be consensus should they have to vote for it - so for English Wiki, there's no need to worry about change as long as everyone only worries about their own little corner - which seems to be the case here. THEPROMENADER 14:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
It is hardly my own interpretation of what a name is, it is both the dictionary definition of a name as well as established practice on Wikipedia. I don't see how you can deny that city, state is a common name for these places. If someone asks me where I am from, I usually say "Cleveland, Ohio". In context, THAT is the name of the place I am referring to. I don't understand what your point about inflexibility is. I'm not the one advocating for a single wiki-wide standard to be applied uniformly regardless of local practices. If there turns out to be a demonstrable need to change the naming conventions, then they will change. But you've not demonstrated any such necessity. older ≠ wiser 15:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Again, with all due respect - of course it is your interpretation. Of "word or group of words", you chose "group of words", and in a second degree of interpretation took this to justify "city, state" - and I severely doubt that the dictionary definition was written with this purpose in mind. "Niagara Falls" is a "group of words" that is a place name, and "Niagara Falls, New York" and "Niagara Falls, Ontario" are place names with added description/disambiguation. This couldn't be simpler.
You seem to be quite comfortable with the convention the way it is, as you seem to be willing to go to lengths beyond reason to justify it: this is fine, and no doubt you're in the majority, so again, no worries. On my end, I'm not looking for "inflexibility" : I'm looking for an unbiased method all can understand. THEPROMENADER 16:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Similarly, it is your own interpretation to consider that a form commonly used to refer to these places are unacceptable for the purposes of naming articles. I fail to see any logic in that. If you can unequivocally demonstrate that the current naming convention is in fact biased and poses actual problems for understanding, then you might have more traction with your arguments. The problem is that there is little demonstrable evidence supporting you position. older ≠ wiser 16:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
My answer to you was my stating the fact that Ohio is not the name of the city of Findlay - The name of the city is Findlay. It's hard to find a more basic and solid argument than that - and I stated this simple fact only an answer to your earlier propos; it is not in promotion of any idea of my own.

All the same, I wouldn't bother with the suggestion that I "don't have a case" with my critiquees - I think I made it quite clear that those promoting local habits as convention here are more concerned with comfort than function - but as I said earlier, I could be completely right and it still wouldn't matter. So no worries. All I ask is that we reason here, not justify.

As for the "understanding" angle, please see to the bottom of this subject. THEPROMENADER 16:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
You are interpreting "name" narrowly. A name is the term or phrases that people use to refer to something. "Findlay, Ohio" is a very common name that people use to refer to that place. I never claimed that "Ohio" is the name of the city of "Findlay". My claim is that "Findlay, Ohio" is a commonly used alternate name for the place. Sorry, but the only thing that you've made "clear" is that you don't like the practice. You say I think I made it quite clear that those promoting local habits as convention here are more concerned with comfort than function but I don't see that you've made that point at all. In fact, I find it just a little offensive that you make such an assumption. Yes, you've reiterated your opinions in this matter many times over, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. older ≠ wiser 16:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I'm interpreting "name" objectively. There's no reason to be offended, but your designation of "people" - meaning "those using the practice" - itself meaning "those in the U.S. - only proves my "comfort case"; no, I don't like the idea that a "local to local" habit should give itself more importance than a large Wiki readership that is not familiar with neither the locale nor local naming practice. Naming should be objective and precise without the addition of any practice that risks being lost on the reader. Is there anything wrong with wanting that? THEPROMENADER 18:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
< -- outdenting
Your claim of interpreting name "objectively" would almost be laughable, if it weren't so irritating. Your restriction of "people" who use such a convention as "those in the U.S." is demonstrably incorrect, thus making nonsense of your so-called "comfort case". Unfortunately naming is never an objective matter, especially when addressing cross-cultural concerns. I think the best that we can hope for is to name accurately without giving cause for offense or causing undue confusion. You seem to believe that city, state causes confusion, but so far this is little more than hypothetical confusion. Without genuine evidence that something is causing confusion, I don't see any good reason for overhauling a well-established and familiar convention. (tweaks, perhaps, but the core of the convention is sound, IMO). older ≠ wiser 00:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
In order for me not to be looking at this objectively, I would have to already have a fixed objective in mind - I do not. What I do observe, and this I have stated many times, is that local practices are best understood by those who use them, and that this does not bear the rest of Wiki in mind. Apply whatever adjectives you will to the result - confusion, misunderstanding - but the only thing that counts is that to foreigners, the formeost value anything "non-name" added to a name is disambiguation, and the "city, state" convention is not easily recognisable as even this.
My using the US is only an example - Canada and other countries do the same as I have mentioned many times before in even mentioning my hometown, the nec plus ultra of any city needing disambiguation. I still don't think that practices there are suitable for Wiki. But we won't really know for sure until we get the opinion of some non-US/Canada/whatever contributors, will we? I hope I have just taken care of that. THEPROMENADER 00:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
In order for you not to be looking at this objectively, all that is needs is that you allow your pre-existing biases to color your interpretation. Lack of objectivity is not solely outcome oriented. You are entitled to your opinion that to foreigners, the formeost value anything "non-name" added to a name is disambiguation, and the "city, state" convention is not easily recognisable as even this, but don't represent this as if it were demonstrated fact. older ≠ wiser 00:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
What pre-existing biases? Would you know that I supported before for a move to "city, state" (and even "community, city, state") before having second thoughts? What is Gauteng in Boipatong, Gauteng to you, foreigner? A country? A county? A province? A state? No, to the ignorant is just a container for Boipatong until they learn better. Until they do, the only role Gauteng has for them is to tell which city of Boipatong" we are talking about - or disambiguation. Is this not clear? Is this not objective reasoning? THEPROMENADER 01:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Well, I'm not sure what it is exactly, but objective reasoning is not what comes to mind. As I've indicated elsewhere, what difference does it make whether a reader knows what either Boipatong or Gauteng is. It does not only tell us which Boipatong is being referred to, for as you probably know, there is no other Boipatong. What Boipatong, Gauteng tells the reader is that there is some relationship between the two terms. Without any familiarity with the terms, the relationship between them is a meaningless as the terms themselves. But if it is common convention for that area to describe the place as Boipatong, Gauteng, then I don't see any reason why there should be any objection to a naming convention to specify it as such. older ≠ wiser 03:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
And I still don't get Vegaswikian's point. Is it just that he didn't know what a dateline is? It would hardly seem notable that some local paper follows what had already benn claimed ot be an AP guideline in that regard, and I'm totally baffled by his sentence "This also has the effect of showing what they intended when they only use city." Gene Nygaard 19:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
To tell you the truth, I didn't really get it either; that may have shown in my answer. I tried all the same to look beyond the details to the gist of the argument : its purpose of justifying a local practice. THEPROMENADER 20:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
It is hardly surprising that a paper gets a story from the AP, including the dateline, and prints the story with that dateline. Most newspapers do just that. And therefore the "local habit" stuff is just baffling. Gene Nygaard 22:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
And, as far as international standards go, most newspapers around the world follow similar practices, no matter which wire service or whatever they get the story from, don't they? Gene Nygaard 22:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Okay, I must still not get the gist of it. I thought the argument was an (albeit indirect) justification for "city, state" disambiguation. Just a thought - all newspapers are read locally, by the way - only extremely "big-city" papers are printed nationally, but even that is "local=same country". But okay, if I've missed the point, no point in pursuing it... THEPROMENADER 23:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Decidedly. There is the Herald Tribune - but even they use the local practices of their "local" audience - Americans abroad. Okay, okay... THEPROMENADER 23:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
My point was that the city is always in a larger type size then the state. Like city, state. So in these cases you know what the city is since it is in the same form if included with or without the state. If this is part of the AP sytle, then it has not been mentioned before. I brought this up since it shows that their sytle is such that it is always clear what the city name is by looking at it. If I used New York, here what would I be talking about? From the above in my paper that would be the state, the city would have been New York. I guess you could say that the style always dabs the city. Vegaswikian 00:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I was wrong here. They are only using CAPS for the city so it looks larger. Sorry for the misinformation. Vegaswikian 03:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
In either case, wouldn't you make it a whole lot easier on yourself if you just figured out that the city is the one that comes before the comma, so you didn't have to rely on the apparently bigger ALL-CAPS to figure out which is the city and which is the state? Gene Nygaard 08:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Furthermore, AP guidelines for the use in datelines are not particularly relevant. For that usage, readers already know, just from the placement at the top of the article, that this is a city (in rare cases, it might be some other geographical area like "Sahara Desert", especially if not a permanently populated place). However,

  1. That is not something we necessarily know when we look at the entries in a Wikipedia category.
  2. That is not something we necessarily know when we look at a Wikilink.
  3. That is not something we necessarily know when we look at "What links here"
  4. That is not something we necessarily know when we look at "Recent changes"
  5. That is not something we necessarily know when we look at "Related changes"
  6. That is not something we necessarily know when we look at "Special:allpages"

The standardized "city, state" format is one thing that will give us that additional information in many of these cases. Plus, it also narrows down the geographical ___location when the city is one which is not familiar to the reader. Both of those and others are reasons distinct from "disambiguation" in the common Wikipedia jargon usage. Gene Nygaard 15:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

But you see, this is where my doubt lies - the "informative value" of "State" in "City, State" (or any similar form of "higher administration" disambiguation), especially in the question: who is it informative to? Answer: Those who know where "State" is. Thus this "more in formative" wisdom also has a dependance on those who "already know". I mentioned the example "Boipatong, Gauteng" on the disambiguation discussion page - what and where is "Gauteng"? But if the added administrative entity is treated as pure disambiguation, it doesn't matter. But it must be clear that the addition is disambiguation - and it is for this that I am for a single disambiguation method for all of Wiki, places and names alike. THEPROMENADER 16:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
What difference does it make whether one knows where "Gauteng" is? People who know, know, those who don't don't (and if they're at all curious, they can easily find out). Boipatong, Gauteng is as equally uninformative as Boipatong for anyone unfamiliar with either. The question in that situation would be whether it is common practice to refer to places in Gauteng with the comma method. If it is in fact common practice, then I don't see much problem with a naming convention that specifies that form. If that form is not in common use for such places, then the naming convention shouldn't specify that usage. But I don't know anything about the specifics of South Africa, so my perspective on that is entirely theoretical. older ≠ wiser 16:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
What difference does it make if they know or not? None - this is my whole point. Thus we should drop all "better informed" justification for the higher administrative term and retain only its usefulness as disambiguation.
What use to Wiki is a "local naming habit", especially to those who aren't familiar with it? I thought we agreed that it would be rather pointless to try to "inform" a reader through a title. All we want to know is which subject we're talking about - any "added extras" is just cruft as far as the uninformed are concerned. Yes, of course, once they are sure they have the right subject, they can find the rest in the text; wouldn't the proper and properly informative place for "how the locals say it" info be there? THEPROMENADER 17:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Any scheme of disambiguation--in the title--will always leave some doubt as to whether or not disambiguation is used--in the title. The article title has two main purposes:
  1. To give each article a name that is different from other articles.
  2. To help readers decide whether they have found the article they wish to read.
When readers ask questions like these (and those posed by Promenader), they can and should find the answers in the lead section of the article. That is the best way to let readers know whether to read the rest of the article--and to know for certain what is the name of the subject. --Ishu 17:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, Ishu. I'd like to add that imposing local traditions is not a clear way of informing the reader that "they've got the right one" - it is more an impediment than anything, especially if it breaks the trend set by the rest of Wiki's articles. The overwhelming majority of Wiki is using parantheses for disambiguation, and you can put anything (and as much as) you want between these, even commas, and the reader will still a) "get" that what he's reading is disambiguation and b) be clearly informed about "which one" he's reading about. If one wants the commas to become Wiki's "obvious disambiguation", then he's got the rest of Wiki to change.
In short, to hell with local naming traditions if they are cumbersome, conflicting and uninformative - clear subject designation should hold sway over all other preferences and practices. THEPROMENADER 18:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Oh, grow up and get over the notion that the only purpose served by this convention is disambiguation. It is not.
Furthermore, get rid of this silly figment of your imagination, that the "overwhelming majority of Wiki is using parantheses for disambiguation". Much of our disambiguation is done by other methods, and it is best when it is done by other methods.
We often disambiguate people by including a middle name or initial.
We often disambiguate by including diacritics on letters.
We often disambiguate many wanna-be soccer players, whose fans figure it would be a sign of their having it made big by trying to name their articles with one name, by including their surnames.
We often disambiguate by adding "Malaysian" in front of "Malaysian passport" or "United States" in front of United States Department of Justice.
We routinely disambugate lanugages such as "French" by including "language" after it as in French language.
And that is just scratching the surface as far as different methods of disambiguation go. Gene Nygaard 21:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
We disambiguate Department of Defense by spelling, and redirect Department of Defence to Defence minister. Gene Nygaard 21:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
First off, thanks for maintaining a civil tone.
Second off, it is obvious that I agree that only one part of the "city, state" convention's role is disambiguation. My whole point is that disambiguation is the only role the "city, administration" convention has that is of any use to Wiki - especially to its non-(locale in question) readership.
The overwhelming majority of Wiki disambiguation is done using parentheses.
The other means of "disambiguation" you cite are in fact nothing of the kind: People's middle initials are still their own name. Soccer player's surnames are still their own. Diacritics describe alternate pronunciations or spellings that are still the subject's own. if the article is on a Malaysian passport, then you will not name it passport, because Malaysian passport is an entity in itself. If the article is on the Department of Justice of the United States, it is not even conceivable that you title it Department of Justice. If the article is on the language that is French, it is only normal that you be precise and name the article French Language.
On the other hand, you cannot say that State in a City article is City itself - in this role, it is either a locator or disambiguation that may place or designate the city in question, but the addition is not the subject of City itself.
I don't understand why one would redirect an article on an entire department to an article on the sole office of its minister. THEPROMENADER 23:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Your comments reveal a profound misunderstanding of disambiguation on Wikipedia. Using alternate names IS disambiguation and constitutes a large part of how disambiguation is done. Parenthetical disambiguation is arguably the last resort, that is appropriate only when there is no other acceptable common name. For example calling something Malaysian passport would really only apply in contexts where it is necessary to distinguish it from passports from other countries. Without that necessity, it would be referred to as simply passport. And why on earth is it "not even conceivable" that one would title an article Department of Justice for the U.S. DOJ? There are countless examples of people doing precisely that (both in the U.S. and for entities from around the world). By the use common name principle, if one does not "know" in advance that there might be other things sharing that name, why should one assume that it needs to be disambiguated? Until someones recognizes to potential for ambiguity and presses to rename it or until some project with established naming conventions adopts the article, it likely would remain at the simpler name. When you parenthetically disambiguate, you virtually ensure that no one unfamiliar with Wikipedia disambiguation practices would select that term to search for and force them to go through one or more disambiguating links. Using an alternate common name enables some portion of users without prior familiarity with Wikipedia disambiguation methods to get it right the first time. older ≠ wiser 00:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Please do not accuse me of misunderstanding anything - I have made it perfectly clear throughout all my arguments (and that just above) what is or isn't disambiguation. Please - a Malaysian Passport is a type of an object in itself - this is a bad attempt at an example. Department of Justice is an object in itself - why would it automatically describe the U.S. Department of Justice? This is what's inconceivable. Don't other countries have a Department of Justice? I'm sure you get my point. Yet in light of the above, would you say that "city" is an object, and that "state" would be the type of that object? Not at all.
Nothing is clearer as disambiguation as the method in use for the rest of Wiki - parentheses - but I am not arguing only for this method - just a recognisable one, whatever that may be. I see neither fact nor objective in the "forcing" part of your parentheses theory - there is no reason why disambiguation cannot be clear. An "alternate common name" is only common to those knowing it already - this is what I mean by segregation. It should make no difference if the same disambiguating "common name" term appeared in the same way the rest of Wiki disambiguates - at least then it would be recognised as disambiguation - by everyone. THEPROMENADER 00:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
What you have made clear throughout your arguments is that you do not seem to have a very good grasp of either disambiguation or of Wikipedia practices in general. The parenthetical method of disambiguation is a completely artificial construct. Of course an alternate common name may not be familiar to everyone. So what? There are tens of thousands of articles in Wikipedia about which I wouldn't even be able to come close to guessing the topic based on the title alone. The purpose of the city name titles is not only about disambiguation. I think it is far preferable for an article to be at an alternate common name than at an artificial construct that no one would think to look for without prior knowledge of Wikipedia disambiguation practices. older ≠ wiser 03:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Again, hold the vague assertions of my "lack of understanding" - this is obviously not true, and a such assertion, as it points at nothing in particular, does nothing to help the discussion.
I've said dozens of times before that the sole sure value one can place on a term used for disambiguation is its ability to disambiguate - nothing more. We agree that it is pointless to count on the "informative value" of the disambiguation term.
Yet to present this disambiguation in a method differing from the method in use for the rest of Wiki, a method recognisable (as disambiguation) by readers already familiar with the method (or everyday common practice) and the places concerned is against the interests of the international media that is Wiki. Do I make myself clear?
As for descriptions such as "artificial construct" and "alternate common name" - both of these are based on the point of view of those already familiar with the practice you defend. There is neither "common" nor "natural" (as opposed to "artificial") for anyone unfamiliar with the places or terms used - there is the name, and there is disambiguation. That's it. THEPROMENADER 10:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
The practice of naming city and town articles with "comma state/province/county" meets the requirement expressed at the top of WP:NC of "...what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Some readers might find the additional information helpful some of the time (I do), but it doesn't matter if they don't. I think I understand your argument about wanting to use parentheses, I just disagree with it. As pointed out above, the preferred method of disambiguation is to find another name for the article to avoid needing to use parentheses (see Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Specific topic). Alternate titles without parentheses have been used many times in naming Wikipedia articles, but it is probably impossible to count (how would a tool identify that the example cheque is a disambiguated name for an article that could otherwise have been named check?). It would be fascinating to discover how many articles about places have a) comma, b) parentheses, c) neither to find out if your assertion is true, but as yet nobody has attempted to count them. A combination of WP:NC(P) and the "linking to those articles easy and second nature" leads to my preference for always using "comma state" instead of sometimes using it, depending on whether the author believes there to be a potential conflict. --Scott Davis Talk 11:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

(outdenting)
Apologies, but I find the WP:NC justification a bit of a stretch, as a) I don't think it was made to accommodate naming habits beyond the name itself (like added disambiguation or ___location) and b) the name of a State is not that of a City. Let's not even get into the "rule game" (god knows how many times we've been there before) as I could start digging up the same on my side (such as "shortest name possible", "disambiguate only when necessary", etc.), so let's just look at what we've got and how it works in relation to every article and every reader.
How does comma disambiguation make "linking to those articles easy and second nature"? For who?
I also wish there was a way to count comma vs. parenthetical disambiguation - adopting that in use in the majority of Wiki articles of course should be the one to choose - but I think it important for universal comprehension that there be one. In all evidence, parentheses have the overwhelming majority at present. THEPROMENADER 13:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
PS: I do agree that having some city articles at "city" and others at "city, state" is rather pointless - it negates itself (the city, state convention) and adds just another level of confusion to the above. The convention certainly would be better understood (by all) were it cross-board. THEPROMENADER 13:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

I did not suggest that "the name of a State is that of a City", and I don't think anyone else has either. I said that uniformly naming articles about cities and towns in the form of "City, State" is something that the majority of English speakers would easily recognise, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
Habits can be formed and unformed, and any consistent naming convention will lead to the habit of linking to articles using that convention.
A naming convention is as much style as disambiguation, so your question about "comma disambiguation" is already loaded to your point of view. The answer is that editors (who else can linking be easy and second nature to?) can be confident of linking to the right article in almost all cases without having to open the target and check. The "pipe trick" reduces the redundant typing. This allows an editor to concentrate on the topic they are writing about.
For the purpose of counting articles, it should be done for articles about places, not all Wikipedia articles. The naming convention for towns can transfer to people no easier than the naming convention for people (Firstname Surname rather than Surname, Firstname Middlename) can transfer to places. --Scott Davis Talk 14:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
(after ec) So much of this round and round seems to center on your refusal to recognize that "city, state" IS a valid alternate name for these places. You claim that the sole sure value one can place on a term used for disambiguation is its ability to disambiguate - nothing more. But that is your opinion and nothing more. You go on to state: We agree that it is pointless to count on the "informative value" of the disambiguation term. No, I agree to no such thing. All that I agree with is that with a term like Gauteng is as equally uninformative as Boipatong for anyone unfamiliar with either. For those who have some familiarity, it has some significance. What you appear to want is mandate a disambiguation method that makes an article title equally unfamiliar and difficult to find for everyone (that is, no one, without prior knowledge of Wikipedia disambiguation techniques, would think to look for a term with parenthetical disambiguation). What I advocate, is that by using an alternate familiar name, a large portion of those familiar with the name will be able to find the article on the first try.
You make the statement: "Yet to present this disambiguation in a method differing from the method in use for the rest of Wiki, a method recognisable (as disambiguation) by readers already familiar with the method (or everyday common practice) and the places concerned is against the interests of the international media that is Wiki. Do I make myself clear?" -- no, I'm afraid I am not able to parse this statement in any way that makes sense. Are you saying that the comma method is a method differing from the method in use for the rest of Wiki? Sorry, but that is not only incorrect, but patently ridiculous. Why is it against the interests of the international media that is Wiki to use article names that are easily recognizable to a very large number of readers? Why should we force artificially constructed titles on articles to satisfy some sort of ideological purity test in the name of correcting purely hypothetical problems for international readers? older ≠ wiser 14:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
You two seem to be entrenched into a justification of the present convention, even though I am not proposing/imposing any definite solution per se. All I am asking is the question: "is the comma disambiguation, in relation with practices used in the rest of Wiki, easily recognisable as such by all?" Yet none so far have even considered the matter in that light, answered only that the present convention is comprehensible to "a majority" (without even considering the question of a convention accessible to all) and have gone into a justifying-argument-searching draw-the-line defence of the convention existing. Perhaps this issue has come up many times before, or I'm asking in the wrong place. Anyhow.
  • "You claim that the sole sure value one can place on a term used for disambiguation is its ability to disambiguate - nothing more. But that is your opinion and nothing more."
No, it is fact. If the reader knows nothing about the identity or locale of the term used to disambiguate, that identity will only be revealed on a DAB page or the article itself. Until then, the only role of the disambiguator is to separate the article from other articles on other subjects sharing the same name.
  • "Are you saying that the comma method is a method differing from the method in use for the rest of Wiki? Sorry, but that is not only incorrect, but patently ridiculous. "
The comma has many uses in Wiki (titles, proper names), but the parentheses, save a very few exceptions, are used only for disambiguation and are easily identifiable for as such. Most disambiguation (and most all disambiguation that is not place names) in Wiki is done with parentheses. Go figure.
  • "Why is it against the interests of the international media that is Wiki to use article names that are easily recognizable to a very large number of readers? "
.. simply because it is possible to create a disambiguation that is recognisable to all. But here we don't even seem to be willing to even consider the question. "Hypothetical problems"? Let's not suggest that I'm digging up issues for the fun of it. THEPROMENADER 16:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
The answers to those questions are straightforward: the comma and the parenthesis are both widely recognized. Neither is recognizable to absolutely every conceivable reader. The comma will be more widely expected in this context (It is used for geographical names in Turkish, for example); whereas the parenthesis is used for disambiguation only when there is no alternate term, as there always is here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
(after edit conflict with PManderson) I don't think I'm "entrenched into a justification of the present convention", although I believe that the broad thrust of the US, AUS and CAN city naming conventions is much better than the UK one. I actually dislike the occasional three-level US article names for example.
The reason you have not got an answer to whether "comma disambiguation is easily recognisable as such to all" is that it doesn't matter, and is an unanswerable question anyway. You can prove it's not by finding one person who didn't recognise it as disambiguation. So what? At least part of the naming convention is style, which means it's not just disambiguation. Many readers will not recognise "Cheque" as disambiguation, either - that's the way it's supposed to be written in some variants of English.
The bit about the sole sure role of a disambiguator is to create a unique title is true, even if the disambiguator is " (anthropologist)" - the term means nothing to someone who doesn't know what it means. I'm not sure I understand your point.
There are three main methods of disambiguation used in Wikipedia, and we appear to have agreed it is not possible to count their uses. I suspect that comma is by far the most common for articles about towns and cities. It is relatively uncommon as disambiguation (vice style) in articles about other things, again, so what? The comma notation and naming style is natural and easy to read for most English readers, moreso than parentheses.
I don't understand your last point, so won't attempt to answer. Please rephrase if you want a response from me. --Scott Davis Talk 22:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Apologies if my replies have not been the clearest - I have been attempting to mix my pointing out the usefuless of a "universal method" with answers to arguments seeking justification for the present method. And yes, there are many of the latter to answer to - I do think defenses are up here for one reason or another.
To tell you the truth: I don't know what the method in use for the UK is, so I can't judge there. I do agree with the dislike of three-level and "no level" disambiguation - these render the two-level disambiguation pointless and causes (further) confusion between disambiguating entities.
I do understand that commas are more "natural" for placenames for most English-speakers. My point is that, in this single media that is wiki, this comfort for this subject should perhaps not be the formost issue in titling articles. I would think that article-to-article comprehension (of method) should be more important, no matter the subject. I think parentheses are ugly (especially after "url_encode"-ing), but if it is the most obvious choice, than so be it. The same could very well be for the comma. All I'm promoting here is the usefulness of a single method.
THEPROMENADER 23:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
The UK uses "comma county" for pure disambiguation - they use just the city/town/village/hamlet name until someone points out the need for it to be disambiguated (see talk:Bath#Requested move for a current example). They also have confusion over the definition of "county" - it appears to be the current "ceremonial county", but that's not clearly expressed and agreed, and cities may have a "historic county", "ceremonial county" and "administrative county", and I think they can all be different, and the city could have been in yet another county for about a hundred years up to the 1970s.
I don't believe a "universal method" is possible for all Wikipedia articles - yes it would be possible to specify that there must be a term in parentheses in the title to distinguish a particular article from all others, but then the discussion would be about the appropriate set of terms, and under what circumstances - for example Springfield (city) is no more use than Springfield.
A wiki server is a tool. Wikipedia is a set of products built from the tool. This is the English Wikipedia, so we do not have to choose article titles that a non-English-speaker can instantly recognise, as long as English speakers do. As far as I know, the comma notation for city and town names (followed by a state, province or county) is universally recognised (maybe not used) by English speakers the world over. That makes it ideal as a naming convention for the English Wikipedia. It is purely a matter of individual interpretation whether one sees this as "disambiguation", "predisambiguation" or "style", and it is not really important to the project which interpretation is applied by any particular editor. --Scott Davis Talk 14:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yes, the UK and its "-derry"'s and hamlets parishes and official counties and ceremonial counties and "Greater" areas that are known as the City name... I don't think they could have a "city, whatever" convention even if they wanted to.
  • "yes it would be possible to specify that there must be a term in parentheses in the title to distinguish a particular article from all others, but then the discussion would be about the appropriate set of terms, and under what circumstances"
Exactly - and I saw that one coming. The thing is, if there is no more convention to follow and disambiguation is identifiable for what it is, one is no longer restricted in his choice of terms used for disambiguation. For example, one could put Springfield (Jacksonville, Florida) or Springfield (St. Croix County, Wisconsin) - the only restrictions would be using the least amount of terms as possible (already the case for the Springfield of St. Croix County (Wisconsin)) or none at all - yes, this is practically impossible for Springfield.
The reason I have been argumentative is not because of any urge to enforce change, but my astonishment that so few are willing to admit that the porting of the "English-speaking comma habit" to Wikipedia titles is a "comfort issue" more than anything - it's contributors taking what everyone already does in their own respective region and making it a standard here, more often than not for articles about their own regions of their own writing. Some even took offense at this propos.
I have nothing against the local practices themselves, but I hesitate at their lack of respect of each other - each convention was presented with its own well-being in mind, and no thought at all to the foreign reader or existing Wiki uses (other uses of the comma, etc). Non-English speaking countries not edited by "non-local" people get even less respect - actually, in a way, I don't think the language spoken should be a reason for differing treatment - all countries - andl all subjects if possible - should be treated the same. Is this unreasonable? THEPROMENADER 17:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
The thing is, if there is no more convention to follow and disambiguation is identifiable for what it is, one is no longer restricted in his choice of terms used for disambiguation. -- And you think that this is a good thing? Advocating for more unpredictability in names? I don't see how that could possibly be beneficial to anyone. The mind boggles. older ≠ wiser 17:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
<--------undenting

It might help if Promenader would describe some of the places where the comma convention does violence to the place naming. I think some examples were provided in the past, but I'll have to pass on combing the archives for them. An article like Mount Vernon, Singapore appears to have been created by a local who would be less likely to adopt the "American" convention simply because it was there. Australian articles appear to use comma disambiguation. Indian places vary (see Jaffrabad and Asola (parentheses) versus Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh and Belur, West Bengal). South African articles often use commas, such as Sandton, Gauteng, of course, and Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape. Obviously, non-English speaking places may differ, and I'm not familiar enough with them to comment much. But should the article currently at Saint-Denis, Réunion be at Saint-Denis (Réunion) or Saint-Denis de la Réunion as the article suggests? I don't understand French language or culture well enough to know whether it makes a difference. --Ishu 18:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Oh, wait--Promenader wants only parentheses for all disambiguation, right? In which case the place naming isn't an issue at all. All the same, commas don't seem to be confined to Americans. "Many" English speakers, maybe, but not only Americans. --Ishu 18:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

No, Promenader "wants" an identifiable method - meaning "one" - for disambiguation. He has no preference, and has stated before that he thinks parentheses practical - but ugly.
If I was to indicate a French city "French-style" (as in a French newscast), I would say Crotelles, dans le département d'Indre et Loire; this is meaningless to most people foreign to France and its geography. "City, State" is the same to they, by the way. Yet I'm sure (as experience has taught me through my contributions to the Paris (et al) articles) that native French-speaking Wiki contribution is much larger than English-native contribution to French Wiki - and I'm sure the same applies for most other languages. Thus I think we should pay a little more attention to other cultures and methods - in our own presentation of ourselves. THEPROMENADER 18:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
OK, but what I should have asked for is a "French-style" article title. Saint-Denis, Réunion, Saint-Denis (Réunion) or Saint-Denis de la Réunion, to give one example. --Ishu 18:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Other examples: Chemistry

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Perhaps we might review Wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry) and the IUPAC naming guidelines for chemical compounds.

Naming chemical compounds has some similarities to settlement names such as:

  1. Very few people know about chemical compounds except for people who know about the conventions before coming to Wikipedia (e.g., chemists and others with specific education/training).
  2. Chemical compounds are governed by several different formal naming conventions.
  3. A very small portion of chemical compounds are known by true common names (e.g., Dioxin, LSD, Acetic acid), which serve as the article titles for these compounds.
  4. Other common names such as Baking soda redirect to a more technically correct title.
  5. A very large number of compounds have article titles such as Bromotrifluoromethane, Benzo(c)cinnoline, or 1,8-Bis(dimethylamino)naphthalene that are unambiguous yet also meaningless to the vast majority of readers. (See List of organic compounds and List of inorganic compounds for many more examples.)
  6. Context and audience are key considerations for the level of specificity. More specificity is required when the context (a dinner table versus a chemistry lab) requires it.
  7. Additional contextual elements (e.g., Chirality) are added when necessary but are often left out of common names (e.g., Glucose).

One significant difference is that chemical compounds already have a set of accepted international naming conventions (external to Wikipedia). It is common to give the name of a compound according to several conventions to resolve ambiguity. Places (settlements) do not have a single convention, and it is not common to list a place name according to multiple conventions. Another important difference is that compounds do not have multiple namesake compounds (e.g., York, Portland). One last difference is that there is no food fight over chemistry naming conventions at Wikipedia.  ;)

This is also another example of the use of parentheses (and commas) in article titles that is not disambiguation, at least in the Wikipedia sense.

So long as there is a "reasonably" consistent method of disambiguation, it matters little what that method is. The Wiki preference is to use disambiguation that has more correspondence with "common" usage as possible, and then to deviate when necessary, generally following common usage disambiguation. Finally, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry) specifically references Wikipedia:Deletion policy to state "Don't worry, redirects are cheap." Maybe we can chew on this instead. --Ishu 16:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Universal conventions

Latest comment: 18 years ago15 comments4 people in discussion

(new heading for ease of editing, and subject has evolved) ThePromenader above appears to be proposing that all disambiguation in all language wikipedias should follow a common convention regardless of the topic of the article, and that English-language conventions should not be applied to a globally-accessable wiki.

My question (since ThePromenader's user page has four babel boxes on it) is "How do other language wikipedias deal with these problems? There must be similar difficulties in other languages, especially the ones spoken in multiple countries.

I also note that there is no problem whatsoever with 'porting of the "English-speaking comma habit" to Wikipedia titles' within the English Wikipedia - there could be a problem forcing English-language conventions onto the French or German Wikipedia, but we're not trying to do that. I attempted to raise a discussion to standardise the naming of settlement articles across the entire English Wikipedia (see /comma for all cities) and it was clear that the most people who responded did not even wish to extend English language habits to English-language articles about non-English-speaking places. --Scott Davis Talk 22:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

LOL - thanks for the special section. But you know, I haven't even really paid much thought to how other languages deal with the problem. As for an international media such as Wiki, all solutions should be the same - the treatment should be adapted to the media and its readership. Unless of course we are dealing with a very, very limited language that is not shared by other countries... but then I can note that Japanese treatment of pages on certain cultural subjects (that I am familiar with) are quite appalling... but that is another debate. Here we have a Wiki where not only many contributors write articles particular to their own country in their own language and traditions; Most probably because of English Wiki's popularity (voir: "majority"), there are also a large number of contributors who are not native English-speakers creating articles (off the top of my head - Mumbai). This, in my books at least, is an even higher motivation to "think large".
No there is no "problem" per se with the "local tradition" "conventions" - let's just say that, from an extra-cultural point of view, it doesn't look very serious. Wiki as a media should be behaving as a whole so that any reader, from anywhere, can find any article about any place with the same method. Wiki is perhaps one of the world's first chances at a "World Encyclopaedia" written from a "world point of view" - to tell you the truth, I'm quite enamoured with that idea. The thing is, for it to be seen as a solid and unique media, methods used within have to be constant cross-board. Otherwise Wiki looks to be a place where every contributor, with nary a thought to the traditions of other cultures (especially those of their readers) carves a little corner of their own. THEPROMENADER 00:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I believe the convention is that each language Wikipedia may name and organise articles in a manner that makes sense in that language. I don't know where to look for that guideline/policy though. Interwiki links allow readers to easily swap languages and find the equivalent article. I note that about 8 of the other language links for Mumbai have names similar to Bombay rather than Mumbai. There are at least two languages that appear not to believe there is a need for disambiguation of Springfield (eu:Springfield and sk:Springfield). Other languages appear split about 2:1 between Springfield (Illinois) variants and Springfield, Illinois variants. --Scott Davis Talk 01:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I did say though that my questions never even touched on how other languages deal with similar problems (or if they even have them) - I've been looking particularily at English Wiki articles and its treatment of the same/exposure as a whole. English Wiki is by far its most popular and most mediatised version.
Perhaps again I wasn't clear - by "ethnic corner" I meant "within English Wiki." THEPROMENADER 01:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Wiki as a media should be behaving as a whole so that any reader, from anywhere, can find any article about any place with the same method. This anticipates that multiple sets of searches should lead to the same point. For example, Springfield, Illinois and Springfield (Illinois). In which case the particular disambiguation method is less important than the fact that two different searches end up in the same place. For "settlement" article titles, this discussion seems to come down to what constitutes "second nature" as suggested in the policy WP:NC:
  • Parentheses disambiguation, used most frequently in Wikipedia, or
  • Comma disambiguation, used by many people and in many places, but recognized by even more people when disambiguating places. --Ishu 05:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
With the above you are essentially saying: "Most of Our people understand our way of doing it" - I think I already mentioned my thoughts on that above. Here I am proposing the creation of an "all people recognising one way of doing it" method. THEPROMENADER 17:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, I almost agree with you - I meant actually that it would be best that Wiki adopt a single method that would become recognisable (hopefully) from the first time it is seen, so that the reader would know what to expect in the next title read if the same method is seen again - but there's no reason both possibilities can be covered - think "correction" - if they redirect to a single method. THEPROMENADER 05:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

I do understand what an uphill battle implementing a universal method would be. The thing is with a media such as Wiki, where volunteer contributors submit articles of their own choice using their own methods decided by themselves, is that there is going to be a certain amount of contributor "me" in each submission - this is only to be expected. But this "me" stretches way beyond locals using locally-recognisable practices to name articles about towns from their own country - "river" affectionados have "their" way of titling articles (river tributary as both locator and disambiguation - between parentheses); "highway" amateurs have their way of doing things (not only with little thought to the existence of other countries, but also bridging several methods of disambiguation/designation), and I'm sure there are other "special to interest" examples that have nothing to do with placenames.

I suppose in hearing the above facts one could through his hands in the air and declare: "Oh, well, I guess Wiki will always be that way; one can't very well ask volunteer contributors to contribute in a way they don't feel comfortable with." Yet in spite of this I still do think that a universal method is possible, but before that can happen, a fundamental change must take place: contributors must think of Wiki as a whole, as for now its methods, qualities and criteria are splintered into a myriad of "special interest" groups, each with its own criteria, quality and methodology. I find this phenomenon to be an odd one as, since contributors rarely pay little heed to subjects outside of their own interests and knowledge, they are often not aware of such differences; yet to the reader, whose unpredictable origins and interests are not limited to the same criteria (the same reader may return for several different subjects), these limitations do not exist. So, in short, the contributor is rarely aware of Wiki as a whole, but the reader often is.

I suppose that this is indeed the wrong place for discussing such things. The above did indeed develop with second thoughts about the "City, State" methodology (after an initial show of support), but seems to have moved beyond. In any case, a "solution" for the "city, state" convention will never be reached by quibbling over details here; contributor awareness (and interest) must grow first as a whole. Yet where would be a place best suited to bring this up? I have yet to see (as corny as it may sound) a "Wiki as a whole" section. THEPROMENADER 17:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

The absence of a Wiki-as-a-whole section is probably a good thing: meta is the closest available approximation. In what language would we conduct it?
Even English WP has very little covering it as a whole; and this is also a good thing. With the exception of a handful of universal policies, Wikipedia grows bottom-up, and is inconsistent; see WP:POINT. Universal practices must evolve, with genuinely universal consent, or they are unenforceable; indeed, there's no way for any central bunch of pontificators to ensure that every editor knows of their decrees (the closest I can imagine is putting it into the edit screen; and even that doesn't work). Uniform disambiguation is neither possible nor desirable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Again, I've never spoken "inter- language Wiki" - my concerns are with only this - most popular, and most regarded - English Wiki.
LOL - again, your own arguments for your own conclusions. You are again speaking from a comfortable contributor point of view. Imagine if you had the chance to contribute an article to the Encyclopaedia Britannica. I'm sure that you'd pay much more attention to how your article "fits in" in regard to other articles and protocols. That sort of criteria does not yet exist here, so you need not worry. THEPROMENADER 18:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

[Edit conflict]

Promenader is proposing the creation of an "all people recognising one way of doing it" method. I simply do not believe that there is any such thing with an entity as large as WikiPedia. Hard copy general-audience references are restricted in the total number of topics, so they don't have problems with naming of "uncommon" molecules and "less well-known" places--which are left to be covered in specialty references, which have their own conventions. With the smaller set of topics, it's easier to have single ("universal") conventions for article naming.
Once you have a "universal" reference (e.g., WP), having universal conventions becomes much less viable. And the technology of redirects and web servers makes it unnecessary. So long as there is both general structure and "local" structure within topics, there is no danger of anarchy or chaos. Redirects easily bridge discontinuities in naming by allowing multiple search paths a single article.
At the risk of Wikilawyering, I'd like to break down the WP:NC nutshell:
Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize: Even if we allow one-country, one vote, the comma convention appears to satisfy this requirement, since it conforms to what people use outside of Wikipedia. On a strict count basis, which search term is more likely: Kansas City, Kansas or Kansas City (Kansas)?
with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity: I think it's unreasonable to assume that a completely naive reader is the "most likely" reader of a given article. It makes far more sense to structure article titles for readers who are "vaguely familiar" with a topic. After all, who is more likely to be searching for places in the US? People in the US or people outside the US who are completely unfamiliar with US naming conventions? Deviating from conventions familiar to a majority (if not most) readers increases ambiguity, however slightly.
As a side note, I hope we agree that Use the most common name is in the service of "most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity" and that this does not mean the reverse, namely the article title should unambiguously call out the common name of the topic.
Most actual readers and users will be familiar with and "comfortable with" the US naming conventions. Those unfamiliar with the conventions may search using a DAB page, or maybe even the parentheses DAB, but it will hardly be impossible for them to find the articles. On the flip side, I believe (but cannot prove) that using a non-standard convention for placenames (in the US and probably elsewhere) in WP will make it harder for most actual readers. At a minimum, I doubt that using parentheses will make it easier for readers than it already is. --Ishu 18:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
What you are citing is (again) 'a majority of locals understand their own method (style) of designation/disambiguation'. If you are not interested in any higher level of 'universal understanding' (that the WWW is), then you have nothing to contribute to the debate that I have proposed. THEPROMENADER 18:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I disagree with your proposal. I assume that disagreement is a legitimate contribution to your debate. --Ishu 18:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yes, but what do you disagree with? That all should be understood by all? Then we can rest assured that you are happy with Wiki as it is. If I am a maverick (at present), then so be it. THEPROMENADER 19:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I disagree that it's possible for anything to be understood by all. I am not happy with Wiki the way it is, either. --Ishu 19:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
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