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Talk:List of sovereign states

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Latest comment: 18 years ago by Dpotop in topic Why South Ossetia and Abkhazia and not North Ossetia and Chechnya?
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Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I would like to change the vertical "List by country" navigational box on the right of this page to a horizontal one at the bottom. Please discuss at Template talk:Lists by country. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 12:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Is Transnistria a sovereign state?

Latest comment: 18 years ago58 comments8 people in discussion

According to the Montevideo convention, a state should be able to establish relations with other states. Transnistria is recognized as a state by nobody. In fact, it is internationally recognized as a region of Moldova. Compare that with, say, Texas, which is internationally recognized as a part of the USA. Texas, too, has relations with other sovereign states, but not as a sovereign state itself. Dpotop 10:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

PS: I have also read the previous threads concerning Transnistria and Northern Cyprus. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Northern Cyprus is recognized by another sovereign state (Turkey), whereas Transnistria never has been. So, if you argue that "Transnistria is de facto independent", I say OK, but when you say "sovereign state", I say no: This notion is clearly defined, and the condition 4 is not met. Dpotop 14:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

PS2: As concerns other "international relations", take a look at Transnistria#International relations, and you will see that Transnistria is not capable of having relations with other states, unlike, e.g. Northern Cyprus. Dpotop 14:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

To Dpotop and other Romanian editors: Not only is Transnistria capable of having relations with other states, it is currently having these relations with other states. Last week alone, it signed 16 agreements with various government ministries in Russia. It also participates in status settlement talks with Ukraine, Moldova, USA, and the EU. It has an office of a permanent mission (the OSCE in its capital, Tiraspol. Some development organizations offer advice and / or funding, and try to influence policy. It receives official visits from numerous foreign ministries (recently: Sweden, Belgium, Spain). See the website of its Foreign Ministry if in doubt. It has names and pictures, and even includes details of signed agreements which you can download. Danida, from the Danish foreign ministry, is involved a program to deter human trafficking. In 2006, half a dozen countries submitted aid. Even the U.S. State Department paid for cargo of humanitarian supplies in mid-2006. - Mauco 15:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
If any type of international relation would be acceptable, then the USA states qualify according to Montevideo. And not only them, but also French departments and Romanian judets, which take part in European regions, etc. What Montevideo requires is probably international recognition of the state. In the case of Transnistria this is not the case. You talk about conflict settlement. But the Palestinian authority has participated in such talks, too. However, it does not qualify, because of territory (disputed, just like in Transnistria) and foreign relations (none recognized as sovereign, just like in Transnistria).
Again, note that I'm not disputing the "de facto independence", but the sovereignty, according to Montevideo and to standards applied to other states and statal entities. Dpotop 15:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I think you want Article I of the Montevideo convention to be something it is not. What it defines is more or less the de facto state. If you read the article on the Montevideo Convention, you will see that:
the first sentence of article 3 explicitly states that "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."
sephia karta 16:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I read that, but then what kind of relations are implied in the Montevideo convention by "capacity to enter into relations with the other states"? Is this the capacity to control its borders (Transnistria cannot do so, because Ukraine refuses it, asking Moldovan travel documents). BTW, Transnistrian passports are probably worthless, given that they are not recognized by other countries? Nope, Transnistria cannot enter into relations with other states. Dpotop 20:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Why exactly do we use Montevideo as our basis for the definition of a state? Assuming that Sephia karta and Mauco's interpretation of Montevideo is correct, then the definition includes a lot of places not generally considered to be sovereign states. As such, it seems clear that Montevideo does not provide a consensus definition of what is a sovereign state, and as such, we should steer clear of it, or at least of using it as our only basis for declaring whether a state is sovereign or not. The various "de facto" states ought to be listed separately. The current situation, where there is nothing to actually distinguish Abkhazia from Afghanistan in terms of their status, is unacceptable. john k 16:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Also, it's absurd that we list South Ossetia and not Palestine, which is recognized by dozens of countries. john k 17:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree with John. Only recognized countries should be in this list. The various "de facto" states, like Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, ought to be listed separately. We should create a separate list for them.--MariusM 17:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

What this list is doing, so that all will know, is to focus on Customary International Law. The Montevideo Convention is merely one expression of this. Montevideo is the norm, not the exception. It is one example of where customary international law was codified. But the same principles date back much further than the Montevideo Convention of 1934, and they have been re-affirmed again and after AFTER the Montevideo Convention (1934) as well. The European Union's Badinter Commission of 1991 used the same principles. Non-EU countries such as Switzerland apply the same principles. It is public international law, and principles which are valid worldwide. In contrast, the "only recognized countries" statement opens up a whole new can of worms. Which is not needed, since international law has already dealt with the issue. And this list follows the principles of international law. - Mauco 19:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Aren't you, somehow, picking the criteria that suits you? This list is made according to a given criterion: The Montevideo Convention. If you want to change the criterion, start another thread. My concern is the following: I believe that according to the Montevideo Convention, Transnistria should not be in this list. Dpotop 20:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
No, I am not picking the criteria which suits me. This is a stable version of the article, which you are attempting to all of a sudden change. The reason why the Montevideo Convention is highlighted is because it is representative of customary international law. You can of course attempt to change international law, if you want. But that is outside of Wikipedia's realm. - Mauco 21:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
This is not a stable version. The article used to either list Abkhazia, et al, in a separate section, or foonoted in a different type face. Now they are just listed alongside everything else. And, pretty clearly, whatever customary international law may say, this is not how these things are generally recognized by most people on earth. For instance, every makes of world maps that I am aware of does not show any of these countries (well, I have one that shows North Cyprus, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some showing Somaliland, but I'm focusing right now on the former Soviet entities). I think this list ought to give the conventional list of sovereign states that is generally recognized by people throughout the world. Any criteria that gives us Transnistria and South Ossetia is clearly not the conventional way to do this, because Transnistria and South Ossetia are not normally considered to be proper sovereign states. john k 14:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I am quite sure that the stable version of the articles does include them. I have edited here, on and off, for the better part of 2006 and have frequently referred to this list. If I recall correctly, however, the unrecognized states were listed in italics and had a footnote next to them. This is how it is done on List of countries, too. But their inclusion is part of the stable version, as I think that a check of the history log will show. Longtime editors might want to comment on this. - Mauco 15:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

What does "capacity to enter into relations with the other states" means?

I believe the entire problem lies in the understanding of this expression. My oppinion is the following: Transnistria does not have this capacity to enter into relations with the other states. Transnistria does not have the capacity to control its foreign commerce, as proves the Ukrainian requirement for Moldovan papers. And from what I know, Transnistria does not have the basic capacity of issuing de facto accepted passports (this is why every other Transnistrian as a Russian/Moldovan/other passport). Dpotop 20:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Apart from the fact that your characterization is incorrect, foreign trade, passports, etc are not mentioned in the Montevideo Convention at all and rarely enter into a consideration of statehood issues in international law. On the other hand, what is specifically mentioned is the capacity to enter into relations with other states. Here, not only does Transnistria have the capacity. It has actual relations. Last week alone, 16 agreements were signed with Russia. Agreements have also been signed Moldova, with Ukraine, and numerous with the OSCE who is a "conglomorate" which represents states only. The OSCE keeps a permanent office in Tiraspol, the capital of Transnistria. This is not original research. Sources can be provided for all of the above. - Mauco 21:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
So, what exactly does qualify as "international relation" as concerns sovereignty? Just about any piece of paper? But then, you have guerillas in Colombia that control their territory and engage in peace talks and hostage exchange with other governments. :) Are they sovereign? Dpotop 06:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Even a private company can sign agreements with a foreign government. Does it mean that private companies are sovereign states?--MariusM 13:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
No. The capacity to enter into relations is only one of four criteria which together form a principle in customary international law. The other three are population, territory and government. Transnistria meets these requirements. Private companies do not, nor do Colombian guerilla groups. - Mauco 13:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Can you describe something which does not, under your definition, have the capacity to enter into relations with other states? You seem to have diluted this principle to the point of near meaninglessness. I think what we need here is citations - some sort of textbook explanation of what this principle means would be very helpful here. john k 14:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Relations with other states would include official visits (where the head of a state is referred to by his official title by the government of the receiving state). Apart from their lack of the other three criteria of the Montevideo Convention, that is something which guerilla groups or private companies, to name the two extreme examples, can never obtain. - Mauco 15:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Well, mentioning self-styled titles is usual when dealing with breakaway/guerilla entities. I presume what you would need to show is actual official documents of another state signed by both Smirnov (or other minister), in his quality of President of Transnistria", and some other chief of state. Something that goes beyond the mere solving of the border conflict. Dpotop 15:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I am referring to an official statement (press release) of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs a foreign country which refers to Igor Smirnov as President of Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublica (the official name of Transnistria). This is a U.N. Security Council member. I can assure you that these things are not dealt with lightly and that this is not "usual" (as you claim) when "when dealing with breakaway/guerilla entities" (as you claim). You may want to provide sources to back up the somewhat novel theory that this is usual in international relations. Furthermore, I merely gave this as an example. There are numerous other items of evidence in the "capacity supporting" category, and I would most certainly also include international bilateral Ministry-to-Ministry agreements in that field as well. Last week alone, a further 16 of these were added. - Mauco 18:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I presume that by "member of the UN security council" you mean Russia. Well, I find extremely important that even the country that created and supported Transnistria as a breakaway entity (including militarily) refuses to recognize it as a sovereign state. Turkey, for instance, has recognized Northern Cyprus. For me, this means that there's no way Transnistria will be a normal state in the near future. Not even Russia openly supports its sovereignty. It's just another way to create a frozen conflict zone near the EU and NATO. Dpotop 19:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I hate to be harsh, but that is really a straw man argument. We are NOT giving sources as to whether or not Transnistria will "be a normal state in the near future". That is, frankly, irrelevant to this list. All we need to determine is if it meets the criteria listed by the Montevideo Convention. We are clear on the first three, and I have given five sources to document that it also meets the fourth. Not content with that, you now change the goal posts? Sorry, but the very same Montevideo Convention is also clear on the recognition issue, as are the sources which I have provided. So please just stick to the topic, and we can quickly close out this discussion. - Mauco 23:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Second question: What reliable source stated that Transnistria is sovereign?

It also seems that this article includes parts that are in direct breach of WP:OR, looking more like an original research paper, than like a report on what reliable sources say. All sorts of debates took place here, as to which states are to be included, and which not, and some guys decided Transnistria qualifies according to the Montevideo Convention. But this is exactly what WP:OR is about: original research. Dpotop 20:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Empirical evidence is not original research. Anyone can read the Montevideo Convention. There is plenty of precedent for how to interpret it, too. Then you simply review the more than 200 sources of interactions at various levels with other sttaes and it is becomes clear as water that Transnistria meets the requirement. - Mauco 21:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I cite from WP:OR: It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source. Putting Transnistria here is exactly this. There's no source having have made the same analysis. Dpotop 06:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
You should also read WP:SYNT. Dpotop 06:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
SYNT is actually beside the point, in this case. But if all you need is an external source which tells you that Transnistria meets the requirements of the Montevideo Convention, then just say so, and lots of editors here can easily provide it. It is about as far from original research as you can get. - Mauco 13:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Alright, please do so. I'm particularly interested in what is said on whether any of these states "have the capacity to enter into relations" with other states, and on whether South Ossetia, at least, has a defined territory which it controls. This latter seems particularly dubious. So, anyway, citations please. john k 14:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I'd be leary of writing anything about South Ossetia since I know too little about this subject. I am quite familiar with Transnistria, however. They have several government ministries in place which a) have the capacity to enter into relations with other states, and b) actually do enter into relations with other states, usually in the form of agreements signed with their counterparts abroad. Would you like sources for a) or for b)? A should be enough, since that is what the Montevideo Convention is about. But numerous examples of B abound as well. (For instance, last week alone, 16 new bilateral agreements.) - Mauco 15:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I think that JohnK, like me, would like to see some reputable source saying explicitly that either:
  1. Transnistria is sovereign, or
  2. Transnistria meets the requirements of the Montevideo convention
That's all. Dpotop 15:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Here's what John said: I'm particularly interested in what is said on whether any of these states "have the capacity to enter into relations" with other states. - Mauco 15:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I'm sorry for you, but saying only this is not enough. Remember WP:OR, WP:SYNT. BTW: I indented your text. Dpotop 15:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for indenting my text. But what are we really discussing here, again? The better accepted theory of customary international law holds that the existence of states is a factual matter, and that recognition by other states or the international community can be no more than evidence of statehood or a display of willingness to establish a certain level of relations with the recognised state. Even the entities aspiring to statehood which are not formally recognised by other states do have rights vis‑a‑vis other states. For example, during four decades the state of Israel was not formally recognised by many Arab states; still, these states recognised that the territory of Israel could not be invaded by them. When in 1949 British planes were downed by the Israel airforce, the United Kingdom at once informed the Israeli authorities that they would demand compensation. The fact that the United Kingdom had not recognised Israel at that time was not considered relevant. Last, before the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) was recognised by Greece, that country did in fact recognise that de facto a state existed on the territory of (former) Yugoslav Macedonia; indeed, Greece even negotiated with FYROM in order to reach a settlement on the name and state symbols of that state. Within the past seven days alone, two incidents somewhat along the lines of these examples happened in Transnistria. - Mauco 15:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Could you give the sources you were talking about earlier, so that we finish this matter? Dpotop 16:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I'll deindent back out and give you some. - Mauco 18:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Most of these are not online. One of the most recent and most specific to this mater is «Отношения России и Абхазии: проблемы теории и практики» 19 декабря 2006 г. в Государственной Думе РФ which fortunately is online at http://materik.ru/print.php?section=analitics&bulsectionid=17055

It is a presentation by international law and international relations specialist K. Zatulin, head of the Institute of CIS countries, to the lower house of Russia (State Duma) in December 2006. The article reviews the four criteria of the Montevideo Convention, then states that "it is obvious" that Transnistria meets "at least three of four requirements." It then examines the fourth requirement, and concludes that "in fact, their capacity to enter into relations with other states is beyond any doubt."

If you have access to a good library, there are many more sources for this. Some of them, for starters:

  • International Society and the De Facto State' by Scott Pegg, Ashgate Publishing (1999), ISBN: 1840144785, pages 30 - 43
  • Fragmentation and the International Relations of Micro-states: self-determination and statehood by Jorri C. Duursma, Cambridge University Press (1996), ISBN 0521563607, page 122
  • De facto states: the Quest for Sovereignty, by Tozun Bahcheli, Barry Bartmann, Henry Felix Srebrnik, Routledge, UK (2004), ISBN 0714654760, page 112
  • I would also include The Sustainability and Future of Unrecognized Quasi-States, by Pål Kolstø, Journal of Peace Research, Vol. 43, No. 6, (2006) DOI: 10.1177/0022343306068102, of the International Peace Research Institute in Oslo, Norway, Pages 723-740, although it does not enumerate Montevideo directly. It does go to the heart of all four criteria, however, and sustains this (narrow) sovereignty argument.

It is interesting research and there can be no doubt at all that Transnistria and Abkhazia belongs on the list, but with the appropriate disclaimers and footnotes of course. I am less certain about South Ossetia. I know too little, but I will be glad to help anyone else with sources if someone wants to do more research into this. - Mauco 18:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I took a look on the source http://materik.ru/print.php?section=analitics&bulsectionid=17055 . You can obtain an English version (more or less good) using babelfish.altavista.com (you put in the web page and choose the Russian to English translation).
I see a single occurrence of "Dniestr Moldovian" in the text, and as concerns the 4th point the position is that it's debatable. Nothing new on sovereignty, I'm afraid. BTW, does someone know what this "materik.ru" is? Dpotop 19:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
As to the other sources, I presume "reputable" includes "verifiable", so I'll just wait for some other reputable editor to confirm reading them. Dpotop 19:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
So, Mauco, do you have some real source? Dpotop 19:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
The four books quoted are peer-reviewed academic works. They are more substantial than most of what floats around on the Internet. I am sorry that you want everything to be hyperlinked. But in my field, some of the best material is hardcopy and not always available online. - Mauco 23:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I am dubious of sources coming from interested parties. That a Russian paper states that it is "beyond doubt" that Transnistria can enter into relations with other states does not settle the matter for me. That it takes the other three points as "obvious," but feels the need to engage in an argument as to the latter (which is, I take it, what it says? If I've misinterpreted, correct me), suggests that, in fact, it is not "beyond doubt," and that people have, in fact, argued the opposite. I'd really be interested to see some general discussion of the issue of what it is that "capacity to enter into relations" means under international law. At any rate, whether or not these states meet the Montevideo definition, I still don't think they should be listed alongside the rest of the list. john k 21:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
John, that criticism is only valid for the online link. Are you able to check out the four Western academic sources? A good university library should be able to locate all or most of them. They are not interested parties in any way, and they back up our edit in full. - Mauco 23:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I will try to take a look, but there's no guarantee that I'll have time to do so. It'd be nice if you provided a paraphrase of the arguments these writers make about the "capacity to enter into relations" business. BTW, none of the sources you refer to appear to be legal sources - they all look like poli sci stuff, and I'm not sure that political scientists are qualified experts on the interpretation of international law. For instance, the abstract of the Kolsto book you mention, for instance, appears to be an analysis of the real, on the ground political and economic conditions of these states, not a legal analysis of their precise status. john k 19:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Don't know if I count as a "reputable editor", but I did give that source a try. First, Konstantin Zatulin is this guy, here. Second, in his report, he mostly focuses on Abkhasia, giving Transnistria a glancing mention. Third, he argues, that, since Transnistria does participate in conflict regulation talks (that also include Russia and Ukraine), that would, in his opinion, qualify as at least a basic form of relations with foreign entities.
The site appears to be a news aggregator (hosted by Zatulin's Institute of CIS (an NGO)), providing information concerning post-Soviet territories from a Russian point of view. In my opinion, Zatulin's report would formally pass as a WP:RS, although I'd personally prefer a more neutral, preferrably non-Russian source on this issue. --Illythr 22:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
The article is about Abkhazia. The points which are relevant to this discussion (Montevideo Convention in general, and the "capability" issue in particular) all cover Transnistria. They cover Transnistria specifically, by name, in the context. Not implicitly. Do not focus on Zatulin's nationality, please, but on his scolarly credentials in the field. He is the top expert in the State Duma, and the head of a very serious, respected organization which works professionally precisely in this field. He is probably the most qualified congressman to analyze these issues. - Mauco 23:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Reply


Thanks for the input, Illythr. As I explained a bit earlier in the discussions, I presume that such basic forms of "conflict resolution" cannot count for Montevideo. Why? Because even guerilla movements participate in peace talks (e.g. in Columbia), without being acknowledged as sovereign. Moreover, and as you noted, there is the fact that the source is Russian, closely related to the Duma. BTW, I found a very interesting source on the Transnistrian war on that page: http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?3165. Dpotop 09:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
BTW, it is interesting to see that Zatulin and the on-line Russian source provided by Mauco are very careful, and stop short of saying that "Transnistria is sovereign". They both talk about the Montevideo convention, say that "Transnistria has basic forms of relations", but do not say whether these basic forms qualify Transnistria for Montevideo sovereignty (they do not draw the conclusion that interests us). I find this to be a form of honesty. Dpotop 09:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I also don't know if you followed the threads I initiated here from the beginning, but let me again state that I am simply questioning here the sovereignty of Transnistria (according to Montevideo), not its de facto independence, which is unedeniable. Dpotop 09:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
My position is the following: There are currently no reputable sources saying that Transnistria is sovereign or that it satisfies Montevideo. Moreover, deciding here any of them qualifies as both POV (because there are sensible arguments agains) and original research. Upto now, Mauco didn't manage to present me with reputable sources contradicting it. Dpotop 09:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
He gave you five sources and some of them are scientific, it says ¨Cambridge University¨ on one of them, did you read the sources already? removing Transnistria from the list is POV because it directly denies the possibility that it is not a sovereign state, but including it with a footnote explaining exactly what's going on is neutral because it presents both sides of the story: it is considered sovereign by some criteria by some people but not by others, so the article as it currently stands does not endorse Russian POV because it includes a footnote, and if you think this is not sufficient, then add another, but just don't Transnistria to make the article reflect your POV that it does not comply with the rules for the montevideo convention. this is the same from the old Abkhazia discussion, you have maybe not seen it but it was solved a long long time ago Pernambuco 21:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
  • I don't have it with me, but I do have what is a reputable source which specifically addresses Montevideo with respect to Transnistria and clearly states that these criteria do not confer legitimacy as a sovereign state. The statement here and elsewhere that Transnistria is sovereign according to Montevideo (and examples cited) at best qualifies as the original research/POV of one person--which does not qualify for Wikipedia even if correct--which I hasten to add, it is not. (Also, the political analysis of any Russian official/politician/analyst is inadmissible as being totally partisan. And let's not get into the "consider the words, not the source" argument again.) With regards to Pernambuco's comments, the PMR is not considered sovereign by pretty much the entire planet of sovereign countries and not even by the country which has a vested geopolitical interest (Russia). People of opposing viewpoints arguing on Wikipedia does not mean "maybe it's sovereign, maybe it isn't, let's footnote that maybe it isn't, that's sufficient." Montevideo is relevant to "sovereignty" only when a government is recognized as legitimate--as Montevideo cannot confer legitimacy, it cannot confer sovereignty.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 05:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Montevideo and the so-called "frozen conflict" zones

From "Engaging Eurasia's Separatist States--Unresolved Conflicts and DeFacto States" by Dov Lynch, the first book I've come across that deals with Transnistria, South Ossetia, et al. in a cohesive fashion... Regarding "empirical" claims to statehood: "The classic definition of an entity that may be regarded as a sovereign state was set forth in the Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States of 1933. The Montevideo criteria are that an entity have (1) a permanent population, (2) a defined territory, (3) a government, and (4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states. The post-Soviet de facto states fulfill the first three of these criteria and claim to pursue the fourth. However, the empirical qualifications of the de facto state cannot make it legal or legitimate in international society. As [Scott] Pegg [academic expert in international relations teaching at Indiana University] argued, it is 'illegitimate no matater how effective it is'.... The de facto state claims both to be sovereign over its territory and people, and to be constitutionally independent of any other state. The key difference for the de facto state resides in its non-recognition. This status prevents it from enjoying membership in the club of states--the de facto state does not have recognized external sovereignty."

  • So, bottom line, is Transnistria et al are not sovereign because they are not recognized. Original research by Wiki editors protesting the "latest" A,B, and C "deals" (versus reputable, non-partisan, recognized expert academic sources) cannot change that.
  • From http://www.sgpproject.org/experts/dov_lynch.html: Dov Lynch has been Lecturer in War Studies at King’s College, London since September 1999. Prior to this, he was University Lecturer in International Relations/Russian Foreign Policy at the University of Oxford for 1999, and a Research Fellow at St Antony's College. He was also a Research Fellow at the Royal Institute of International Affairs, Russia and Eurasia Programme. He received a doctorate in International Relations from the University of Oxford (St Antony's College) in 1997, and a BA in Soviet Studies from Yale University in 1992. In 2001, he was invited to be a Research Fellow with the EU Institute of Security Studies. Dov Lynch is currently Director of a two-year project funded by the United States Institute of Peace called 'Exiting from Volatile Impasses: De Facto States in Euro-Asian Security.' His major publications include Russian Peacekeeping Strategies towards the CIS, (2000) and co-edited volumes on Energy in the Caspian Region (2002) and The Euro-Asian World: A Period of Transition (2000). He has also written Occasional Paper 32 and is writing a Chaillot Paper on Russian-EU Relations. Dr. Lynch’s specialties are EU-Russian relations, security developments in Russia and the former Soviet Union, as well as EU policies towards the region.

Transnistria is not sovereign. Montevideo, as argued here by Mauco and others, does not confer sovereignty on Transnistria; same for the other frozen conflict zones.

  • And no commentary would be complete without... "I dispute Mauco's source as partisan." And Mauco's usual "consider the words not the source." ("Do not focus on Zatulin's nationality, please, but on his scolarly credentials in the field. He is the top expert in the State Duma.") Anyone who is a deputy of the Russian State Duma cannot possibly be regarded as non-partisan.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
  • Forgot, dispute Mauco's (et al.) interpretation of his other sources as putting Transnistria over the sovereignty hump.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
  • And, all of us arguing over Montevideo and the sovereignty of states is the ultimate in original research; any articles of the sort claiming to list "sovereign but unrecognized states" violates No original research  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Unrecognized States

Latest comment: 18 years ago55 comments10 people in discussion

Last year it was Abkhazia and South Ossetia that people were removing. This year it is Transnistria that is being removing. Either way it is POV pushing as entries from the unrecognized countries are not being treated the same. Either all should be removed or all should be listed. Even if your interest/knowledge relates to one of the countries, you should be working on what the criteria of what should be listed on this page rather than just removing an entry. Many times when an entry is removed it usually looks silly as the top of the page, which has a count and description, is not updated - making the page inconsistent.

To me there are only three possibilities of dealing with this issue: 1) Remove all the unrecognized countries 2) Leave the unrecognized countries on the list but rename the page List of Independence Countries (or something similar) and remove reference to the Montevideo convention (Which seems to be a source of friction) 3) Leave the page as is

Until there is a consensuses on what to do here in the talk page, the page should not be changed. If it is, it will be reverted. -- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 14:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'm for option 3, personally; we already make it clear enough that they're unrecognised. —Nightstallion (?) 14:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Yes, of course, I agree 1000%, the list is very clear. it has the introduction, and the criteria, and if you look at footnote 1, you will see that this list includes de facto states, so the only question here is whether places like Transnistria are de facto states, and the answer is yes, so they can be included. The people who want to delete them, they would be ruling out the possibility that they are not sovereign states, but compare this to including them but saying the exact situation (that their statehood is disputed) and let the reader make up his own mind, that is the most neutral thing we can do, this is why the footnotes are there, and personal POV from someone who maybe is a Transnistria hater does not override WP:NPOV. Pernambuco 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
leave the page the way it is.


I'm sorry, but the proposal of Shocktm relies on the false hypothesis that the situation of all the unrecognized states is the same, and that we should either accept or reject them as a group. This is false. There is an obvious difference between entities such as Taiwan, Transnistria, and the Palestinian authority, and we should deal with them separately. The only common decision is the choice of the rules for accepting sovereign states. This has already been done (Montevideo Convention). Now, each of these unrecognized countries must be checked separately against the requirements. To put it otherwise: Don't be lazy, you can't create an encyclopedia through batch processing. Dpotop 15:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

This is a list of sovereign states and it is defined from the criteria in the intro, so the POV push to exclude some areas and allow others, it is not right, the only criteria is from the intro, and this list is not an extended mirror of United Nations member states, so be realistic and face the fact Abkhazia and South Ossetia and Transnistria and those places are currently de facto independent, so Wikipedia has to show the current situation, with accuracy Pernambuco 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

As concerns Transnistria, I gave here enough arguments showing that the information concerning it currently qualifies as WP:OR and WP:SYNT, and moreover this original research is POV. Why do you keep re-including it? And why do you do so while refusing to answer my concerns on this talk page? Dpotop 15:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

maybe it is that you don't understand the meaning of "sovereign", because "Sovereign" does not mean "recognized by the United Nations" or anything like that, read the introduction to the article and the definition of sovereign states from the Montevideo Convention Pernambuco 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Is this for real?! Did you at least read what I wrote? Where on Earth did you read "United Nations"? Do yourself a favor and read the posts before answering. What I'm saying here is that Transnistria does not comply with Montevideo. Dpotop 19:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
wiki-pedia can't ignore that these territorities do rule themselves, and are therefore sovereign in a practical way Pernambuco 21:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
But then, this article should not claim that the listed states comply with Montevideo (under Montevideo, self-rule is not enough to define sovereignty). I think that our misunderstanding comes from exactly this point: you think that the criterion should be "self rule", whereas I rely on Montevideo (which is the advertised criterion).
I am not particularly fond of Montevideo, but if we change it we need to clearly state what other criterion is enforced (maybe just our will, but I find this a bit arbitrary and conflict-prone). Dpotop 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

At List of countries and List of sovereign states, it is clearly written:The listing of any name in this article is not meant to imply an official position in any naming dispute. I understand both lists contain all countries which may be sovereign/ all territories which may be countries, including the ones with uncertain status. In my opinion, if we remove Transnistria from these lists, it is taking side. Dl.goe 19:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I cite from the article:
This list derives its definition of a sovereign state from Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention from 1933. According to the Convention, a sovereign state should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. The list includes all states that satisfy these criteria and claim independence.
As you see, the article claims that Transnistria satisfies the 4 Montevideo points. So, it's not just an arbitrary list. BTW: I dispute the fact that Transnistria satisfies point (d), and I claim that including Transnistria here is in breach with WP:OR, WP:SYNT, WP:NPOV. Dpotop 20:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
The thing is, wouldn't any country's inclusion here then be in breach of these guidelines? sephia karta 21:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Good question. I presume that very few states have had their sovereignty explicitly checked against Montevideo in a reputable source. In this case, the solution would be to find the good criteria, not including original research, under which we can create state lists. I presume the sensible thing to do is to take a look to places like the CIA factbook and the likes and list states from there. Or create a list of all states and autonomous territories and mark in several columns its status according to various sources. Dpotop 22:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

The currently Montevideo criteria is imprecise, as it refers to which state is sovereign, but doesn't refer to which territory is state. It leads to paradoxes like claiming Transnistria is a sovereign state according to Montevideo, but it is not recognised by major powers that follow Montevideo convention(USA and EU). My suggestion is to split

  1. list of sovereign states in
    1. list of recognised sovereign states and
    2. list of territories with disputed sovereign state status
  2. list of states in
    1. list of recognised states and
    2. list of unrecognised states

The criteria may be:

  1. undisputed/recognised if all Big Powers recognised it
  2. disputed/unrecognised if at least one of the Big Powers recognised, and at least one didn't
  3. the criteria to determine Big Powers can be the Group of Eight Dl.goe 08:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
In addition to defining these objective criteria, we should also fix clear rules defining what is not original research. For instance, when talking about "territories with disputed sovereign state status", should it be necessary to have at least one source (not necessarily reputable) explicitly stating that the territory is sovereign? Dpotop 12:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
A prove that there is a dispute, that regional officials claim the territory is a sovereign state is needed to add a territory at that list.
But I have a second suggestion, with changes that are easy to make:
  1. We remove the Montevideo criteria
  2. We introduce This list also contains territories that claim to be sovereign states, but actually have a disputed status. At List of sovereign states and This list also contains territories that claim to be states, but actually have a disputed status. At List of states Dl.goe 19:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I'd say this solution is not good. The title of the list is "List of sovereign states", and most readers will not read the header of the page. So, readers will think that all the entities claiming sovereignty really are sovereign. BTW: most states have some claim of sovereignty, so why have two lists if we take your solution? :) Dpotop 21:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Indeed, I don't know any recognised country that in not sovereign, and I think we cannot speak about the sovereignty of an unrecognised one. Than we should have only
  1. list of recognised states
  2. list of unrecognised states.Dl.goe 21:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Why should recognition play such a huge factor? BTW Dl.goe, we already do have a List of unrecognized countries article. Khoikhoi 22:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Hi Khoi. The problem, as I see it, is that you do need some criteria for including states in this list. Criteria compatible with the rules of Wikipedia, which exclude original research. Several criteria have been proposed:
  1. The four criteria of the Montevideo Convention. As I and Sephia Karta noticed earlier, checking countries against these criteria (and especially international relations) qualifies as WP:OR and WP:SYNT, because there are no (reliable) sources explicitly stating the info (editors are forced to draw conclusions, which qualifies as WP:OR).
  2. Recognition by other states. Does not cover well states such as ROC, Transnistria, etc.
  3. ... (you name them)
After reading much of the posts here, my impression is that this article is and will definitely remain a nuisance. What we need are articles like: "Countries of the UN", "Unrecognized states", etc, and then a nice synthesis article that explains the relations between the various lists and the position of notable elements, such as ROC, Palestine, etc. Dpotop 23:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree list of sovereign states should be deleted, and list of states should be replaced by list of recognised states. Wikipedia cannot get involved in the recognition of one state; we cannot give sovereign state status to any country; all we can do is looking at international recognition.Dl.goe 23:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I completely disagree with the way this list is arranged. The countries that do not exist de-jure cannot be included in the same list as internationally recognized countries. You cannot equate breakaway regions with the countries that have all attributes of an independent country, including the ability to join international organizations and sign international agreements. And Montevideo convention is absolutely irrelevant here, it was signed by 19 American states and has no binding force to the rest of the world. There are more than 150 countries in the world, as is known. Grandmaster 06:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
The discussion here is not about the ratification of Montevideo (which is irrelevant to wikipedia), but on whether we can apply Montevideo to classify states, given that only few of them are marked as "satisfying Montevideo" in reputable sources. Dpotop 07:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
But why Montevideo convention should be used at all in this article as criteria for inclusion? My point is that you cannot use as a sole principle a convention which has no force outside of Americas. Grandmaster 07:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
My point is that Wikipedia is not submitted to international law. You cannot reject a criterion because most states don't recognize it. However, Montevideo must be rejected because no reliable sources (a Wikipedia criterion, this time) exist explicitly stating that states like France, Turkey, or Japan satisfy the Montevideo criteria. So the result is the same. But based on criteria which are meaningful to Wikipedia. Dpotop 08:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I think the criterion should be international recognition and de-jure existence. Listing every breakaway region as a sovereign state is wrong. Grandmaster 08:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
How about list of UNO members? It has a criterion that no one can dispute. Grandmaster 08:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Well, if you read the discussions on top of this page, you will see that "international recognition" has a problem: Depending on its definition, it rejects states such as ROC, Northern Cyprus, Israel, etc. Also, the list of United Nations member states already exists, so there's no point in creating an identical list here. In fact, there is no way you can create a List of sovereign states without original research, and this is forbidden on wikipedia. Dpotop 09:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
My oppinion is that we should remove this article completely (and maybe make it a link to Sovereignty). Then, we need lists of countries grouped on objective, easily-sourced criteria, such as: UN membership, recognized, Disputed international status, etc. Then, all these lists must be commented and put in perspective in the article Sovereignty. Dpotop 09:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I agree with that. This list has no reliable criterion and is POV and original research. Grandmaster 10:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I observe a trend here that I find very worrying, I believe some of you take the current set-up of this article for something it is not. Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention has been used for this article for as long as I've known this article to exist, and for good reason. It is not used because it contains a definition of the sovereign state that all states have agreed upon. Actually, states cannot be bound to follow any coherent theory of sovereignity, it is entirely up to their personal whims what they do and what they don't recognise. If president Mugabe of Zimbabwe so desires, his country can set up a "Lunar authority" tomorrow and recognise it as the sole sovereign government of the Moon. Or if Argentine and Brazil get into a row, they are free to no longer recognise each others sovereignity just like that. To this extent, recognition of other states is no more and no less than an opinion. Scientists of international law want to have a definition of the 'highest' actor in international politics (never mind international organisations for the moment), what they call the sovereign state, and for this they can't rely on 'international recognition', because, ultimately, that is based upon opinions only. In concreto: the scientists want to have a definition that correctly indentifies Somaliland as an international actor, because on the scene of international politics it acts, talks, walks independently from Somalia, which 'international recognition' considers it to be part of. And it just happens to be the case that the Montevideo Convention is most used for this definition. Who did or did not sign it is then wholy irrelevant, because Montevideo is not being used to commit or empower anyone, it is merely used as a tool for classification. That Transnistria is included in the list, does not grant it any rights, and it does not in any way guarentee Transnistria's continuing existence next week, it merely means that for all uses and purposes, Transnistria, at this present moment, acts independently. How then is the current approach not objective and NPOV?

As for the guideline against own research, for the cases under discussion, criteria 1-3 of Montevideo are only a matter of straightforward checking of facts. Criterium 4 seems also to involve only the observation that e.g. Transnistria has missions to Russia and Abkhazia and that it is party to the peace negotiations with Moldovia. If these are not diplomatic relations, then what are they? If one wants to claim that checking whether a state satisfies criterium 4 constitutes original research, then one needs to present an alternative hypothesis as to what criterium 4 might mean other than the obvious, namely a state is capable of having diplomatic relations if its diplomats can talk to other state's diplomats. As long as we don't know better than that this is in fact the intended meaning, I don't see any original research. This comes on top of the fact that sources have been provided that confirm that Transnistria does in fact satisfy Montevideo. (One state that may not have satisfied criterium 4 may have been Somalia, when it didn't yet have a government.)

I don't see the problem with the current approach. sephia karta 11:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

The current approach is the best by far, it has been that way for a long time from what I can see from the page, then for the countries that should be excluded, there are other lists, for instance there is the list of United Nations member states and the 7 de facto states can not be there, if you want to see a list that excludes them, then go there, but do not deny the reality and Wikipedia must show the reality, that some places are currently de facto independent and de facto sovereign rulers within their own borders Pernambuco 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Well, the mere fact that you decide what is and what is not "international relations" is by definition original research, more precisely synthesis work (cf. WP:SYNT). Dpotop 11:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
BTW: Why do you want to have this article, that is qualified by many as POV? Why not have the clear lists of UN members, recognized states, states claiming sovereignty, etc, and then explaining the differences between them, and the particular cases in an article? This is possible without infringing on WP:OR and WP:SYNT, and it allows the special treatment of each special case, thus avoiding the POV accusations that are bound to happen when considering all these cases equivalent. Dpotop 11:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I can see how you find that this article violates WP:Synt, but I've yet to see any reason why it should violate WP:NPOV. The present article already starts out with a break-down of states acording to recognition, and this can of course be elaborated further still. sephia karta 15:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
From what I know, I would say that Transnistria is not sovereign. And for two main reasons: 1. The borders of Transnistria are still conflict lines, quite different from the actually claimed land, and likely to change if the balance of forces (most notably the Russian involvement) changes. 2. The only international relations Transnistria concern peace keeping talks (any guerilla group, such as FARC does this) and the relation with its Russian protecting power. So, saying that Transnistria is de facto independent and claiming sovereignty (over some territory) is OK. Saying that it is sovereign is POV. Not even the Russian sources provided by User:William Mauco do not draw this conclusion, but let it to the reader. But let's cotinue this discussion on the Transnistria page. Dpotop 15:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
My point all along is that sovereign is roughly the same as de facto independent. It just so happens that is what sovereignity means in international law. sephia karta 22:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I understand your point very well. I could even argue the same in an original article. My point is that on wikipedia we cannot use juridical arguments, just reliable sources. Dpotop 09:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
The artice on the Montevideo Convention mentions that the EU and Zwitserland follow a similar approach, except that their definition requires only a territory, population and a political authority, and this is sourced. There would be no research required to verify that the "de facto 7" satisfy these criteria. What is it that you exactly want reliable sources for? That this is the international standard? sephia karta 10:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
So let's follow the practice of both EU and Switzerland and not recognize Transnistria, South Ossetia, etc as sovereign. :) Unless you can find a source where the EU or Switzerland recognize the sovereignty of the two countries (Otherwise, it's WP:SYNT: The EU says A, some other source says B, and from here we deduce C). Dpotop 12:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Don't take me bad for being the devil's advocate, but I think that in its current form the article is going to attract criticism. We have to find something to make this article acceptable to everybody, according to wikipedia rules. Dpotop 12:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
BTW: May I ask why you want to have a list including both well-recognized states and states claiming sovereignty? Deciding when some state enters the list will always be difficult. Dpotop 12:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
no, i do not agree, it is easy, just use objective rules. for example, the three conditions from Switzerland and USA or the four conditions from Montevideo, the last is what this article uses, it says so right in the introduction of the article. Then find the sources to back it up, and that is all, the argument is over Pernambuco 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
BTW2: If you really want to keep this list, rename it into "List of states that are sovereign or claim sovereignty", and then it's OK. Dpotop 11:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Actually, it might not be such a bad idea to rename the article to avoid confusion, but I'm still convinced that the "de facto 7" can objectively be established to posses factual sovereignity.
I saw that you are convinced, and there are many like you. But there are many against (me, on Transnistria), and there are no reliable sources stating that the 7 are sovereign. Renaming the list would simplify things for everybody. Dpotop 15:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
How about simply "list of states"? With the introduction roughly as it is now, there would be no confusion as to what states are recognised and what states are not recognised.sephia karta 22:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
First of all, the introduction must change, as we saw that Montevideo cannot serve as an inclusion criterion (not enough sources). Second, the definition given to state on wikipedia includes sovereignty. So, I think that just saying "list of states" is not OK. BTW, I think I found the best criterion for organizing this list: The relationship with the UN states. How many states are not in the UN but claim sovereignty? Few, I guess. Dpotop 09:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
But I don't understand why this convention should be used as a criterion for inclusion in the list. Looks like an original research to me. Grandmaster 11:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I agree with Grandmaster. Most of the countries which face separatist problems are not signatories to that convention. It is not an universal agreement and hence cannot be used as an universal criterion.--Kober 12:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
You don't understand. Wikipedia is not bound by international law. Read my answers to Grandmaster several lines above. Dpotop 13:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I agree that wikipedia is not bound by international law, but why exactly this particular convention, signed by 19 American states in 1933, was selected as a criterion? Who says that sovereignty of a state should be defined by this convention? It's OR. Grandmaster 13:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
On Wikipedia you can use any convention as long as you find reputable sources to document its use. So, the question is not "Why Montevideo?", but "Do you have sources explicitly saying that states X and Y satisfy the conditions of Montevideo?". Dpotop 14:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
the sources are on this page, there are five of them, including ¨Cambridge University¨ so this is all that is needed, it satisifies the conditions for inclusion Pernambuco 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
To Dpotop, I'm not sure I understand your point. This is meant to be a "list of sovereign states," but it defines sovereign state on the basis of Montevideo/declarative theory of statehood. But there's no clear reason why this should be our definition for the purpose of this page. We could alternately base it on the constitutive theory (probably a bad idea), or perhaps only list countries that more or less meet both the declarative and constitutive theories. That being said, I would agree that the declarative theory seems like the better way to go, if we are to choose, and we ought to be clear on what the declarative theory precisely means, and whether things like Transdnistria and South Ossetia really qualify. To Pernambuco: various sources have been listed. Nobody has yet cited what they actually say about the question at hand. The sources seem largely to be ones on political science, rather than international law, at any rate, so the extent to which, even if they did weigh in on this specific question, they should be considered reliable remains open to doubt. But, in any event, simply listing a bunch of titles, without any explanation of what they actually say, cannot possibly resolve a debate. john k 18:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Suggestion

Latest comment: 18 years ago6 comments6 people in discussion

Is there any way we can try to make some distinctions here? There's the 192 UN member states and the Holy See, which most everyone agrees are sovereign. There used to be more non-member states that everyone would agree on, too. Switzerland, for instance, wasn't a member until 2002. The Germanies didn't join until 1973, and the Koreas until 1991. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not a member between 1992 and 2000, but at present, there don't seem to be any clearly recognized sovereign states, besides the Holy See/Vatican City, that are not UN members. It's also worth noting that there have also been clearly non-sovereign states that have been UN members - India was a member from 1945, for instance, as were Ukraine and Belarus, but not the other former Soviet Republics. But at present, the UN membership list seems to more or less adequately mirror the list of states that everyone considers to be sovereign. The only problematic entity on the list, I think, would be Somalia, whose de jure government is almost entirely powerless.

I would suggest that the ROC falls into a similar situation with some of these other places that were, usually for political reasons, not UN member states, but nevertheless were generally considered to be sovereign. The ROC not only has complete physical control over the island of Taiwan, but it has done so in a completely stable manner for nearly the last 60 years. It used to be recognized by many more countries than it now is, and was once a UN member state. What changed was not so much its status, but the UN's desire to include the PRC. The ROC is clearly in a much stronger position, state-wise, than any of the other de facto states we are discussing.

Palestine and Western Sahara are rather awkward entities. They're currently not listed, but both are recognized by many other countries, and the latter, at least, controls some of the territory it claims. Palestine also kind of controls territory, but that's actually a lot more complicated, in that the PA is only indirectly connected to the PLO, and it is the latter that is the internationally recognized organization of the Palestinian State, or something. But it might make sense to list these entities in a separate section of the list.

The other group of states, the de facto states that are completely, or, in the case of North Cyprus, almost completely, unrecognized, are more problematic. North Cyprus, which has existed for decades, and is recognized by Turkey, might be a somewhat stronger case. So might Somaliland, which seems to not only be functional, but to have developed independently of outside agents. I would suggest that these probably more or less qualify under Montevideo. But even for these, I'd suggest a separate section would be best.

The ones in the former Soviet Union seem to be pretty clearly the most dubious of all. The fact that Armenia doesn't recognize Nagorno-Karabakh, and that Russia doesn't recognize Transnistria, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, seems especially problematic. These states are not entities which, on their own, control the territory they claim. They are states that are propped up by outside armies from countries that don't even recognize them. More broadly, and this applies to North Cyprus, too, I think the fact that these are states propped up by outside militaries makes their sovereign status all the more dubious. I've asked this before, and never gotten a proper answer, but if this were the 80s would you all be advocating listing Bophuthatswana and so forth, without comment, in the lists of sovereign states? I think that would be deeply responsible, and I think more or less the same thing applies here. I'm not opposed to listing them on this page, but I am opposed to listing them, without comment, alongside the rest of the list. Doing this is not a stable thing which the list has always done. It is something which has happened relatively recently. I would prefer discussing the dubious cases in their own sections. At a minimum, there should be footnotes, and possibly a different type face. john k 19:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think I understand your concerns, let me share some of my thoughts.
The SADR and Palestine
Unles something has changed, the SADR is actually currently included, exactly because it does control some parts of the Western Sahara. The State of Palestine is not included, because the Palestine Authorities are a different entity, they do not currently claim independence. Palestinian statehood is one of the ingredients of the conflict and there is talk from time to time about declaring the Palestinian State. If the PA were the Palestinian State, there would obviously be no need for that. The Palestinian State as it was declared in the Eighties is, I would say (without too much knowledge about the issue), an empty legal construct devoid of factual control over any people or territories and does thus not meet the criteria of the Montevideo Convention.
Independent South-African homelands
I've thought about these and I think would actually have included these if they still existed. If you read the article about the Transkei, it sais that between 1978 and 1980 its ties with South Africa had actually been severed over a territorial dispute and that it withdrew (or at least announced to) from a non-recognition pact. Despite the obvious asymmetry in power, this sounds like the mutual dealings of two states. Transkei and the other homelands that had officially been independent (not all had) might in practice have been very dependent on South Africa, but how much more so than San Marino is on Italy?
The ROC
I agree with you that the ROC is by far the most powerful out of the unrecognised states, but when you say that its sovereignity is recognised by most states, you must be referring to its factual sovereignity, because de jure Taiwan is of course considered to be part of the PRC. But isn't e.g. Somaliland in practice recognised as being just as factually sovereign? If the US want something done in Somaliland, are they not forced to deal with Somaliland state authorities?
Be careful with your wording. The US, the UK, and Japan ackowledge/respect/take note of the PRC position that Taiwan is part of China, but they do not recognize this position. So the US, UK, and Japan are unwilling to say what Taiwan is exactly is or part of at this time. Saying that Taiwan is considered de jure part of the PRC is as ludicrous as saying that the PRC wasn't a sovereign state from 1949-1971 because most governments didn't recognize the PRC during that time. Allentchang 16:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
The ex-Soviet 4
While I wouldn't say that Russian state support was essential to Abkhazia's independence and I don't know about the other 3, but even they do depend militarily on their larger neighbours, isn't this in fact a rather common phenomenon the world over? Don't South Korea and Kuweit owe their independence to the USA? North Korea its independence to the PRC? Bangladesh its independence to India? Isn't Somalia completely dependent on Ethiopia, Afghanistan and Iraq on the USA? East Timor on the UN? (Etc.)
Representation in the list
It is currently already the case that all entries are grouped according to recognition and that unrecognised states are thus highlighted at the beginning of the article. I think footnotes to explain this and that are fine, and I am not opposed to generally unrecognised states being italicised, as long as they are treated alike. We should also mention incomplete recognition amongst UN members (for one, I believe the two Korea's don't recognise each other, and of course the PRC, Israel and Cyprus are not recognised by each and every country). sephia karta 21:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I am just calling your attention to the question of sephia karta just before this section. The key point is that this list and the "editor's common sense" criteria for inclusion qualify as original research, because they are not backed by sources. Dpotop 22:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
yes, but deal with each country one by one, and find sources for each, and in the case of Transnistria, this is documented, someone posted already five sources to supply the information and some of them are scientific (¨Cambridge University¨ and that kind) so that solved it for me Pernambuco 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
(Prior comment deleted) See below. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a sovereignty-ascribing blog.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Why South Ossetia and Abkhazia and not North Ossetia and Chechnya?

Latest comment: 18 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

I thought last year we were close to settling. When did the proseparatist POV prevail? And why now there is not even a footnote next to Abkhazia, S. Ossetia, Transnistria etc. clarifying their de-facto status?

And since the discussion is still going on, can somebody tell me why South Ossetia is included and North Ossetia is not? Seems to me Montevideo applies to them equally well. Or why aren't US states included for that matter (my one-year-old question)? Which part of the Montevideo convention does not apply? (PaC 04:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC))Reply

The issue is that pro-separatists, whether for good or bad, are pushing that the separatist states meet the 4th Montevideo criteria and are therefore sovereign, merely unrecognized. Having spent some considerable time Wikidebating, not to mention real money on reputable sources, the whole debate here over whether Montevideo applies and to whom we ascribe sovereignty qualifies as original research of the highest order. Blog? Yes. Encyclopedia? No.
     By the debate here, there are African warlords who, if they've set up any sort of governing authority, could qualify as sovereign and merely unrecognized as soon as they enter into any agreement with a legitimate recognized power. An example of a common argument is that the PMR/Transnistria making any sort of agreement with Moldova, the Ukraine, etc. renders it [and people like to throw in "de facto" here and that "de jure" is immaterial] sovereign.
     (And let's not start up with the PMR being democratic: a "state" which produces lists of who voted for whom to prove people voted and that it is therefore a democracy.)
     The POV is that such a thing as "de facto sovereign" exists. It exists only as an oxymoron. The associated equivalent oxymoron is "unrecognized country."
     There are only two entities which we are in a position to list as an encyclopedia, and those are:
  1. States which are internationally recognized (and therefore sovereign, and therefore States (capital "S") = countries)
  2. Everything else, that is, "Territories whose sovereignty is not internationally recognized." They are not "S"tates whose sovereignty is not recognized, =oxymoron. They are not "s"tates whose sovereignty is not recognized, =oxymoron. (Small "s" properly used to indicate entity within some sort of larger fererated State.) They are not "unrecognized countries" =oxymoron.
     Plain and simple.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
I agree with Pēters. During last year discussion most of us agreed that Montevideo criteria are extremely vague (especially the 4th one). Everybody here interprets it the way she/he wants. The fact that de-facto states sign some international agreements, may seem to some strong enough evidence that these states "enter into relations with the other states", but not to others. North Ossetia can sign agreements as well as South Ossetia (in fact they are signing agreements with each other all the time), why don't we call it a sovereign state as well? Who says that "signing agreements" and "entering into relations" are the same thing?
Or how does this interpretation of the 4th criteria sound:
Entering into relations with other states at the very least should assume recognition from these other states, and since Abkhazia, S. Ossetia, PMR etc., are not recognized by any state, they automatically lack the "capacity to enter into relations with the other states", and therefore fail to satisfy the 4th criteria.
My point is that this debate is in essence about the interpretation of the inherently ambiguous Montevideo criteria, and it is not what Wikipedia articles should be doing - passing judgment on contraversial issues. Changing the criteria to something more clear, factual, and verifiable (like international recognition) will only contribute to the quality of the article. (PaC 15:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC))Reply
Someone told me that this discussion is flaring up again, so here I am. The danger is that international recognition is a sufficient, but not necessary criterion to determine the existence of a sovereign state. Otherwise, we should state that the PRC was a unrecognized state or non-soverign state from 1949 to 1971 because it was not recognized by a majority of countries in the world and it was not a UN member during that time. We could say that the United States was not a soveriegn state in the early 1800's because the British diplomatically harassed those who tried to cozy up with the fledging American republic. This demonstrates the existence of a temporal POV: that is, a POV that changes with respect to time. What we can do is this: for each entity with controversial soveriegnty, we include a footnote, which says "sovereignty disputed: see so and so article for the different points of view." We should also sample various non-governmental world atlases for the purpose of verification in order to minimize the possibility of political agenda. Allentchang 16:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Er, the PRC had at least as much recognition in the 50s and 60s as the ROC has now, and I don't think anybody is suggesting we remove the ROC. UN membership is certainly irrelevant - nobody would deny that Switzerland was sovereign before 2002, for instance. As to the United States, that's ridiculous - the United States had diplomatic recognition of some sort from most European states starting in 1783. Including, er, the British, who, so far as I'm aware, never made any effort to prevent other states from having diplomatic recognition from them. At any rate, the PRC, which had effective control over the whole of mainland China, is hardly comparable to some dubious entity like South Ossetia or Transnistria, the latter of which, at least, apparently can't even issue its own passports. Of the de facto states, North Cyprus and Somaliland seem like they should potentially be mentioned. The rest seem highly problematic. john k 17:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
In this discussion, I agree with you. But I would go farther and push for the pure and simple deletion of this article. Why? Because the criteria for including states in it is either subjective and/or based on WO:OR (Montevideo, etc), or corresponds to some other clearly-defined notion, such as UN membership, recognition, etc. Ask yourselves this question: What states would you have in this list, and which criterion not involving original research allows their inclusion. Dpotop 19:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
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