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Hello,
It appears that Amadeo Modiliaghni also had something to do, since a painting of his on display at the Museo Thyssen in Madrid may be of Kiki.
Change Title of Page
Would anyone have any objection to changingg the title of this page from "Alice Prin" to "Kiki de Montparnasse"? She was and is much better know as the latter. However, I am opening to hearing the downside of changing the title. Thanks.
WatchCat87 10:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
two articles might be better for alter egos
Two articles might be better. A new one could stress the character Alice Prin invented, Kiki de Montparnasse, since she was most often known as, Kiki, which was the signature she used and is unlikely to be a good choice for a separate article. There were other names used, the queen of Montparnasse, Reine de la Montparnasse, Kiki of Montparnasse, and more. So one would have to determine which would be the best choice.
This article, retaining the original title, could discuss her real identity and interesting personal history in more detail. Best to consult with 136.182.158.129, another alter ego who often has strong and rather unyielding opinions about these topics. I think you would have lots of help in building the pages, I know that I would.
Without the creation of two articles, I would expect that there are so many references to Alice Prin that it should remain as the title for this article, for the best use of the encyclopedia.
83d40m 22:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
not an alter ego; the name she was known by
But what is her personal history as "Alice Prin"? Everyone knew her as "Kiki de Montparnasse", except the family she knew before she left for Paris as a young teenager. This was, for all intents and purposes, her name. If this wiki article implies otherwise, then the article is wrong. Everyone in the life she made for herself in Paris knew her as "Kiki de Montparnasse"; no one called her "Alice". References about her (in English) call her "Kiki de Montparnasse". See Kluver and Martin, for example. Her birth name is given only cursory mention.
The article on the personal history of Alice Prin would be very short: Born in poverty in rural France. Went to Paris and became Kiki de Montparnasse. WatchCat87 21:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Kiki is how she identified herself
It seems that her contemporaries knew her as, Kiki, which was her own signature on her paintings -- where she used only one name. She named her establishment Chez Kiki -- not, Chez Kiki de Montparnasse. Her memoirs are, Kiki’s Memoirs, not the Memoirs of Kiki de Montparnase. She is one of those people who gained noteriety with a single name, a nickname. She also was alluded to by several playful names and titles that reflected her "persona" in the bohemian milieu of Montparnasse, which is not so unusual among such groups.
I am not denying the accuracy of what you say, only pointing out that among all of the names which refer to Kiki, it would be difficult to choose one used more than, Kiki, alone. Kiki alone would make much more sense to me, but is inappropriate here because it is not definitive enough as a title for our article.
All information I have seen about her indicates her birth name clearly, which I am sure her children carry also -- so that has to be taken into consideration.
References to people with dramatic personae such as hers will always reflect the very unusual and playful names used, it is the nature of documenting the novelty of it.
So I think the title is best left as it is in our encyclopedia, with redirects used for all of the others. 83d40m 03:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
She was known as Kiki de Montparnasse
The simple fact is, this person was and is known as Kiki de Monparnasse. This is how she was referred to in her time and now. It is not difficult to choose; it is very straight forward -- everyone who has written about her at any length has made this choice. It was not a "character she created"; it was the name she went by.
When I move the page, I intend to indicate her birthname clearly.
I do not find your arguments against the move persuasive, or even informed.
By the way, she had no children. You would know that if you had done any reading about her. WatchCat87 00:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
consensus is the typical path at Wikipedia
I think you should develop some consensus about such an action rather than making a unilateral decision to rename a long-standing article based on your preference alone. This article has existed since 2002 under this title, that is four years. Your first edit is dated 23 November 2006 -- only a few weeks ago.
After all, you raised the question as to whether there would be any objection and now -- having found that there is -- you state that regardless to the objection, you are going to proceed. Hummmm…
I suggest that, since only you want a separate article using this nickname, make a new article from scratch using the title you insist upon, rather than dragging the work of many other editors along with your unilateral action. Sounds as if you have lots of material to include in it.
83d40m 03:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
538,000 results from Google for Alice Prin
That there are 538,000 results presented by Google for Alice Prin, indicates a broad knowledge of that name. This is quite contrary to what watchcat asserts. Seems everybody knows who she was.
On the other hand, the results for the other names bring forth lingerie shops, bakeries, clothing lines, and many other uses besides those for Alice Prin. - fv —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.247.254.117 (talk) 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
- OPPOSE
- 1) You should have put a rename tag on the article
- 2) I presume redirects are in place at the other names
- 3) K of M is long and many people will not spell M correctly
Johnbod 21:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I get 50,000 Google hits for "Kiki de Montparnasse", only 695 for "Alice Prin"
Maybe you get 538,000 for anything containing "Alice" or "Prin", but this is hardly pertinent to this discussion.
You will see you get many, many fewer hits for "Alice Prin", and most of the ones you do get consist of the content of the page we are discussing.
The reason the are lingerie shops, bakeries, clothing lines, etc., called ""Kiki de Montparnasse" is because they are named after THIS Kiki de Montparnasse. That is the name she is known by.
I don't see what is so controversial about using the name her biographers and other reputable sources refer to her by.
In answer to Johnbod, there is a redirect at "Kiki de Montparnasse". That's all.
By the way, for what it's worth, although I did not start this page, I wrote about half the content that is currently on it, although I wasn't a registered user back then.WatchCat87 17:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- You're winning me round! - why not put a rename tag on to do the process properly?
-Johnbod 17:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
nicknames should not replace article titles for people
The practice of renaming articles on real people with only a nickname must be considered to be obscuring access to the history that an encyclopedia should provide. A separate article should be created for the alter ego, just as the one for Kiki's Memoirs has been.
We are not writing tabloid articles. There is a separate article for Jim Morrison's alter ego that should serve as the example for this debate. The Lizard King article does not replace the article on Jim Morrison even though millions know him as such. Similarly, the article on Alice Prin should not be discarded for a nickname, nor should the article on Janice Joplin be renamed, Pearl or The Rose -- although I would bet that in thirty years there will be plenty of books and articles featuring these nicknames for her just by the nature of needing different names for publications. At some point someone will suggest that, "everyone knew her as... "
Wikipedia strives to be a reference tool similar to others -- check your models to see whether they abandon real names for exclusive use of nicknames and affectionate titles.
Build a new article and cross reference it to this, just as Kiki's Memoirs is, and stop deleting accurate data from the article just to accommodate your personal preference to rename the article. The article is not your personal property even if you wrote ninety-nine percent of it.
83d40m 03:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- I believe (without looking it up) the Wikipedia policy is to use the commonest/best-known name in English - there certainly is a policy on this. Consider: Voltaire, Prince (musician), Sting & in fact most of the motley crew in Category:People known by pseudonyms. The key thing is to ensure all likely names that people might look for are covered by redirects. So long as people can find the article the exact title used matters less. To split it into two articles seems wrong to me - I don't think it would survive AfD. No doubt there is a policy for that too. Johnbod 03:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'll look into the policy -- but remember that there were many nicknames for Alice Prin. Her only real alter ego was, Kiki, as she signed her artwork, entitled her memoirs, and named her cabaret -- that was her pseudonym for herself -- the others were affectionate titles used among friends and later a broader circle. 83d40m 03:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC) 83d40m 12:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for you contribution Johnbod. 83d40m, please site some reputable sources for your repeated assertion that "Kiki de Montparnasse" was either the nickname, alter ego, or "character created by" (these three would seem to somewhat contradict each other, but whatever) of Alice Prin, rather than the name she is best known by. I believe you will find the best sources on the topic of this person will show that you are mistaken. WatchCat87 14:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- You are the one driving the train for title change, not I. I have provided many alternative edits to portray the names and nicknames by which she was known in order to contribute to the scope of the article -- with the intention to include them all -- only to have you wipe them out with edits that seem to manipulate the text in order to fit only your intention regarding a change to the title. Certainly it could not be to provide an adequate discussion of the person. The most authentic names for the subject of this article are, her birth name, Alice Prin, and the single name she later called herself, Kiki, as an alter ego. I have seen no evidence that she ever used KdM. This and the other nicknames were used by others when discussing her affectionately—especially seized upon by authors and biographers after her death. Although he occasionally used the nickname to construct a distinctive title, most of the photographs Man Ray took of her are entitled, ‘’Kiki’’. All of her signatures on her own artwork are, ‘’Kiki’’. I have already stated that ‘’Kiki’’ would be acceptable as the title, since she assumed that identity as an alter ego. There is a need for factual references regarding the title to which you wish to change this long standing article, which is undocumented in your edits regarding the first instance of use and by whom it was used. I would be most interested in seeing all evidence you can provide of incidents when she identified herself by these nicknames. Regarding your removal of the information I provided about the film, there is quite a difference between being the star of a movie and making an appearance that is not even credited. One would think from your edits that she was fully credited in the film noted and – by the nickname. Your repetitive and frequent suppression of edits that have real value in an encyclopedia may border upon vandalism, best to reconsider your motivation before such actions. It has been noted by other editors also. Developing consensus is the Wikipedia method, not overpowering suppression of edits contributed by other editors with the same standing as you. 83d40m 22:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Eliminating from the article that her signature on her artwork was, "simply, Kiki" is just the type of manipulation for your own purposes mentioned above. What else could identify what she called herself better? What could be more revealing of your agenda? 83d40m 22:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- In the next few days, I will put up a list of reputable sources indicating the name or names which they refer to her by. Then we can determine which name she is best know by, per Johnbod's indication of wiki rules regarding persons known by pseudonyms. (By the way, "Kiki" is her pseudonym, not her later ego. There is a diiference.) After that, we will see about changing the name of the page. Regarding your other comments, changing the content of an article to make it appear that a name change is not needed while a discussion of a name change is in progress does not seem right to me. Beyond that, I can only allude again to the pitfalls about editing pages for subjects on which you are not knowlegeable. Have a nice weekend. WatchCat87 23:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- This is the relevant policy: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) - see for example Pelé , given as an example. Also polling from google page linked at the bottom. Enjoy! Johnbod 01:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks to both above -- am especially interested in whether Kiki ever used any of those nicknames. Since she adopted, Kiki, as her name and always used it after that time, I am inclined to use it alone, perhaps as Kiki (Alice Prin) or Kiki as the title and then go into the birth name and all of the others. The reference to Pelé is especially helpful because it has a category at the bottom of his page, Category:People known by single-name pseudonyms which looks to be the solution. The way the Pelé page is handled does have many parallels because of the other titles and nicknames he was given also. I am very comfortable with Kiki because it seems to be, not only the single name she selected, but the one that is most frequently used by others as her name -- I'm not interested in one of the dramatic "titles" used by others for her as the title for the article. I have no difficulty with the discussion of them in the article and realize that their use by others is well documented, nonetheless, I do not think the article should have one of them as the title, there are at least three of them that are quite similar. It would be a toss up to select one over the others. She named everything about herself as, Kiki and even the reference in the cemetery identifies the burial site with the one name primarily -- followed by other information that includes one of the "titles" (not the one selected by watchcat for the title, however). I think the name put on one's grave, if different from a birth name, is likely to be the most compelling for our consideration. The source I found indicates that it reads, Kiki (1901-1953) singer, actor, painter, "Queen of Montparnasse". Note the quotes around the nickname title and none for the name. That is the very way I view the differences as an editor. Can you provide any details regarding the marker on the grave? 83d40m 03:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think what you suggest, just "Kiki" as the title, then adding others, might be the way to go, although you will see there is a big dismbiguation page for Kiki , but that is not really a problem Johnbod 04:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- I would still like time to post a survey of reputable sources, such as the Library of Congress and the New York Times, and some other popular and scholarly sources. My research thus far indicates the only real contenders are "Kiki" and "Kiki de Montparnasse". The idea that that the other "nicknames" mentioned here have equal status is not supported by research.
- sure... best that we have as much information as possible to make the decision about any change. using "kiki - alice prin" for a search in Google yielded 20,300 results, which I am plowing through. Among them I already found some worthy of our attention. This Time magazine article is from April 15, 1946 and begins about Alice Prin before shifting to Kiki. This article lends credence to the recognition of her birth name even after the flames of her notoriety quelled. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,818124,00.html is her obituary in Time on April 6, 1953. Another that goes on for twelve pages is from the Hemingway Review, Fall 1999, http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3786/is_199910/ai_n8868984 that gives insight into some of her translators as well as about Kiki. I will keep at it. Here is a link to the New York Times article of March 1997, http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE6D81130F935A25750C0A961958260 The review of Kiki's Paris by Billy Kluver and Julie Martin is at, http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEFD8133EF932A25755C0A96F948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1 The gourmets even get into a discussion of Man Ray and Kiki at http://www.wordsthatreach.com/Gourmet2.htm. I do not know anything about the source of this article at, http://www.tate.org.uk/magazine/issue3/manraylaidbare.htm - do you? Another good topic for searches is "Andre Laroque - kiki". Most point at Kiki alone as the name of greatest frequency aside from the birth name. One states that kiki is a slang word for vagina implying that this was the basis of her choice for the name. Do you have any source for confirmation of slang terms in French? I can not find any source that shows that Kiki called herself KdM but will keep looking. 83d40m 01:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
- This is getting pretty far off the orginal topic, but all I can say about the Tate article is that it is full of egregious factual errors and should not be used as a source for anything. Shame on the Tate! I don't speak French, so I can't say if "kiki" is slang for anything, but my impression is that Kiki is not an uncommon nickname, for men and women. The Montparnasse painter Kisling was sometimes called Kiki, for example. It is also my impression that the French do not consider words for genitalia "dirty words" the way the English and Americans do, but as I say I don't speak French.
- That Time obit is a great. It's a must for the "External Links" section, but I will ask you to please hold off editing the page until the name change is settled. I won't take too much longer.
WatchCat87 03:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm in no rush, I'd rather have our article be correct and easy to find.
Here is the Time magazine article (noted above) from April 15, 1946 which begins with Alice Prin before shifting to Kiki. This article lends credence to the recognition of her birth name even after the flames of her notoriety quelled. I had difficulty inserting it into the section above and it was left out when I saved my posting. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,886916,00.html
I think this will be important in making a decision also. The more I find, the more it seems to me that if the title is going to be changed, it should be, Kiki (Alice Prin) or Alice "Kiki" Prin, in order to get the highest ratings among search engines that are relevant to our article and the easy inquiry for readers.
Rutgers Library search identifies her as Alice "Kiki" Prin here, http://www.libraries.rutgers.edu/rul/rr_gateway/research_guides/media_collections/experimental.shtml
Found the New York Times obituary of March March 24, 1953 which identifies her as Alice (Kiki) Prin the link is not useful unless you want to pay to see the original but here is the initial link, http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F0071FFE3D59107A93C6AB1788D85F478585F9 . Usually they will allow a preview of the first paragraph, but not in this case.
One source cites that in 1929 Kiki was named Queen of Montparnasse another cites that Man Ray continued to use her as a model after he had begun his long relationship with the photographer, Lee Miller, although they may exist, I have not found any photographs of Kiki by Man Ray dated after his new relationship began.
One site also states that Kiki was sent to Paris to work, living with her mother -- not for further education as presented in our article. This makes sense given other sources I have seen because they talk of the menial jobs she had after her arrival.
83d40m 17:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
One additional note for consideration, I just followed the search under her birth name alone and the 690 primary results obtained in Google for Alice Prin are all on target -- clearly for the subject of our article, with all of the irrelevant returns eliminated. The other names and titles appear as well. I believe that seven hundred clean results leading to the exact information sought (and the resulting links from them) is preferable to a million filled with irrelevant data to plow through. The article came up third under all those cumbersome results at Kiki De Montparnasse when the article had the lead I wrote (and was deleted) with all of the other nicknames and titles in the opening paragraph, She had several other titles, Reine de la Montparnasse, Queen of Montparnasse, Kiki de Montparnasse, and other similar nicknames. ... so it remains relevant for all of the names, nicknames, and titles retaining the current title, if we choose to leave it as it has been all this time or add Kiki to it. Right now, I would be inclined to follow the New York Times obituary heading.
I sure would like to know what is on her tombstone and see examples of her using Kdm as her signature. By the way, one of the articles indicated that she is buried in a different cemetery than we have in the article. They are all running together in my memory right now, perhaps it was the Tate article (which I agree, is problematic to say the least).
83d40m 18:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
- Nothing about slang use in my Fr dictionary, which is not huge. Given that the main Kiki to be seen on Fr Google at the moment is a cartoon female Harry Potter type, it seems unlikely:
- "Kiki a 13 ans, elle est apprentie sorcière. Pour parfaire sa formation elle doit quitter sa famille pendant un an et s'installer dans une grande ville, afin de mettre ses pouvoirs magiques au service des gens ...." Johnbod 18:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
- " Kiki is 13 & an apprentice wizard. To complete her training she must leave her family for a year & move to a big city to put her magic powers at the service of people..."
Johnbod 18:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I contacted some native speakers and was told that Kiki is not so vulgar as implied nor did it have the meaning stated in the source, but may be a humorous colloquialism meaning, "to get screwed" and other more explicit terms about being cheated, among many other uses. This one use might not be heard in all polite conversations, but among friends would be slang that was acceptable.
Apparently it also is a rather frequent affectionate nickname for either females or males. I was told further, that a renowned French swimmer of international status in the 1960s was named Kiki and that I would find many uses of the nickname. I made a search and found,
2nd French Revolution, The from Swimming World and Junior Swimmer in Sports provided free by ... Christine "Kiki" Caron came closest to snaring gold. ...
and In fact, over a career in which Caron won 14 French National Championships within a 7 ... Today, Kiki is in the swimming pool public relations business. ... www.ishof.org/98ccaron.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages
and The worldly city dweller Kiki (Maria Popistasu) and the lovable country girl Alex (Ioana Barbu) fall in love at university, where they both study French. ... www.kamera.co.uk/article.php/769 - 17k - Cached - Similar pages
and January 1969 ... Kiki Cuyler ... admitted to the Baseball Hall of Fame by unanimous vote of the Special Veterans Committee at Wikipedia's 1968 in sports article en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_in_sports - 75k - Cached - Similar pages
so it looks as if Kiki is neither truly vulgar, nor is it an unusual nickname. All of those other uses of Kiki in bakeries, clothing, and such are probably not related to Alice Prin.
When I asked my sources if they knew of Kiki of Montparnasse -- they had never heard of her... but they knew the famous swimmer. Of course, they grew up there well after the Second World War and I read that Kiki left Paris when the Germans invaded. So I asked whether they knew who Edith Piaf was, and they did, so it was not that they were unaware of some famous women singers and performers from the first half of the twentieth century.
This information inclines me away from a single name title for the article using just, Kiki --
83d40m 22:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
by the throat
re slang use in the middle of the section above, the larger Robert dictionary says there is a phrase I can't quite remember ("serrer kiki la gorge" perhaps) meaning to seize by the throat - that's all they have.
Are we coming to a conclusion on the renaming? "Kiki" seems ahead. As this will be on the disambiguation page, alternatives can be added there anyway. Johnbod 17:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'm still not inclined to rename it, but am waiting for watchcat to get back into the discussion after further research -- depending upon what watchcat presents, I will respond further... there is no hurry, no one else seems to be jumping into the discussion with us. Could be holiday distractions... happy new year to you both, if it passes before we pick up again. 83d40m 02:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
- I stumbled across this article & discussion in the course of rewriting Fernand Leger and thought I'd offer an opinion for what it's worth. I'd favor a change of title to Kiki de Montparnasse, as that seems to be the way she's most often named nowadays (my research here is admittedly skimpy), and because it's more specific than Kiki alone. Until I saw this article I had never heard the name Alice Prin, although I've run across references to Kiki de M (or of M) for decades.
- Similar cases in the entertainment world include Groucho Marx, better known by that name, or simply as "Groucho" (or even by the character names Captain Spaulding or Rufus T. Firefly) than by the name he went by in his private life, Julius Marx. Performers seem usually to enter Wikipedia under their best-known pseudonym; for instance the blues musician Memphis Minnie was born Lizzie Douglas, and at various times performed as "Kid" Douglas, Gospel Minnie, Minnie McCoy, and Texas Tessie, but she's so much better known as MM that the choice is an obvious one -- although the Blues Who's Who by Sheldon Harris follows the convention of listing all musicians by birth name, while cross-referencing all their aliases, a choice that seems somehow more appropriate in this kind of a specialized biographical dictionary than it does in all-inclusive Wikipedia.
- The fact that she signed her paintings with the single name "Kiki" seems not that different from Rene Magritte always signing simply "Magritte", or Vincent Van Gogh signing "Vincent" -- paintings signed with the artist's full name are a small minority in the history of art, and who can blame her for preferring 4 characters instead of 18.
- The name Kiki is best known by in the early 21st century, and the name chosen by Time Magazine in 1946, may be two different things. Names change according to convention; World War I was never referred to as World War I until World War II came along.
- The problem of Montparnasse being easy to misspell might be solved by creating a few redirect pages for the most common misspellings--as is done for Rembrant, Pensylvania, Michelangelo Buonarotti and Montparnass. and of course there will always be the Kiki disambiguation page.
- I claim no expertise on K de M, and think simply "Kiki" would be fine, but I think the full form better, sort of like Joseph Wright of Derby aka Wright of Derby. Ewulp 04:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your opinion, Ewulp, there has been little participation to consider for the article and it is quite helpful to hear from other editors. While following your links to the misspellings, I noticed this in the article for Montparnasse, under the discussion of the rue de la Gaité:
- The rue de la Gaité in Montparnasse was the site of many of the great music-hall theatres, in particular the famous "Bobino." in Montparnasse was the site of many of the great music-hall theatres, in particular the famous "Bobino."
- Great artists performed at the Bobino Nightclub.
- On their stages, using then-popular single name pseudonyms or one birth name only, Damia, Kiki, Mayol, and Georgius, sang and performed to packed houses. And here too, Les Six was formed, creating music based on the ideas of Erik Satie and Jean Cocteau.
- This provides more information on the use of the single name of Kiki by Alice Prin. Everything we can examine about the decision helps.
- Coincidentally, I prominently display a reproduction of Moonlight Landscape by Joseph Wright where I can see it every day. Looked in the commons for a copy of it, without success, but see that there is a painting of a cave that has a similar effect... think I will add it to the article for him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83d40m (talk • contribs) 12:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC).
- did not mean to leave it unsigned (Hagermanbot to the rescue!) 83d40m 13:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)