Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing

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Clarification on the scope

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Hi! The scope mentions "editing behaviour" and I'm a bit unsure what this means. Does this include editor conduct, such as in noticeboards or interacting with other editors on talk pages, or just edits themselves? If it is the latter, does this also include discussion of edits/reverts? Thanks, A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 08:02, 17 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Someone official will answer but it includes all of the above. Johnuniq (talk) 08:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

@A. C. Santacruz, John is correct. All of the above can be submitted as evidence. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the quick replies, Johnuniq and Barkeep49 :) A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:31, 17 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Should Gronk Oz be added to the case as a party?

Latest comment: 3 years ago42 comments7 people in discussion

Hi! Based on this past discussion on Rp2006's talk page, Gronk Oz (from what I understand) admits to being a member of GSoW. I was wondering if it would be appropriate then for them to be added to the case or not. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 17:16, 20 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

We do not need to know who ever member of GSoW to decide this case. It is possible that being a member of GSoW will found to be a problem. If so, I would expect there to be a way to apply whatever remedy is chosen to new editors either at WP:AE or WP:ARCA. It is also possible that being a member of GSoW will not be found to be a problem. In that case we definitely do not need to know all of its members. To the extent that an editor wishes to make the argument that GSoW as an organization has acted improperly, evidence can be submitted to show editors doing X, including evidence that the person doing X was a member of GSoW. In that case each arb can consider the evidence and decide how to weight it for themselves. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:22, 20 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the quick reply, Barkeep49. I just asked in case it was useful to get their perspective rather than because they might have acted improperly (not as far as I know, really) :). A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 17:29, 20 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

In addition, as discussed elsewhere on these case pages, if there is evidence that Gronk Oz has edited without our mission coming first, then we can consider adding Gronk Oz as a party. Izno (talk) 17:26, 20 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I am happy to provide my perspective as a GSoW member if that will help. I have never been involved with ArbCom so I am not sure what is the correct way to do that - should I add a new section in Evidence? --Gronk Oz (talk) 23:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yes, but it's for evidence (with links to verify assertions made). You could show evidence of bad edits (bad = contrary to policies or guidelines), or evidence of good edits. A central question concerns whether GSoW is, on balance, disruptive or helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 01:48, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Johnuniq. Similar to Sgerbic below, I struggle with understanding what the term "skepticism topics" is intended to cover. If we take skeptics' conventions as an indication, I have only been to three and the invited speakers included a Nobel-winning astro-physicist, archaeologist, historian, consumer protection advocates, medical practitioners, religious academic, school teacher, private detective, and even a guy who solved two Rubiks cubes at once behind his back. Where then are the boundaries of what is being called "skepticism topics"? It seems to me that skepticism is not a topic area as much as a method of investigation. So I would appreciate some clarification of what that term means, in order to make a meaningful submission.--Gronk Oz (talk) 07:15, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

See my comment below and browse the evidence already presented. That evidence intends to show unhelpful editing by GSoW members. We cannot know how Arbcom will assess that or how they would react to positive evidence. Nevertheless, and if wanted, you could state whether you consider to be part of GSoW, perhaps informally, and assert that you have created good content (link to examples). I haven't examined much but have seen diffs of dubious edits (easily correctable problems IMHO), but have also seen good edits. Some of those should be presented in evidence. Johnuniq (talk) 08:31, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Sgerbic questions

So wait, what is the scope of this? According to the title "The scope of this case is: Editing behavior and potential coordinated editing in skepticism topics" So is GSoW on trial? I'm confused. And is it all editing behavior from any editor that has posted in skepticism topics? What is the scope of skepticism, does that include pseudoscience topics? And science? I hate to be pedantic but as this is the first ArbCom I've ever been to, and my name seems to be the main one mentioned, I would like to be clear. What is the scope? If I have no evidence of coordinated editing, then I guess then I say nothing about that? Am I the main one on trial? Am I allowed to respond to each piece of evidence against me? Do I get to see the private evidence? I've read the instructions several times but this still isn't clear to me. Sgerbic (talk) 02:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Regarding coordinated editing, I believe evidence that GSoW is not engaged in coordinated editing would also be relevant - to be clear, you are stating that GSoW is not engaged in coordinated editing? BilledMammal (talk) 03:12, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

What do you mean by coordinated editing? Sgerbic (talk) 03:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Editors closely collaborating, across multiple articles or talk pages, using public or private methods, for ends that align with our purpose or for ends that do not. However, it might be a good idea for ArbCom to clarify what they mean, as my definition likely differs. BilledMammal (talk) 03:40, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

How would that be shown or not shown? Yes, I don't see how I will be able to respond to all of this until I receive some clarification. What about all the other questions I asked? By editors, do you mean me? Do you mean GSoW? Do you mean just any editor anywhere? Sgerbic (talk) 03:43, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

No one is on trial. Coordinated editing would be if editor A is reverted, then A gets like-minded editors B and possibly C to assist restoring A's text. That might happen in fact (A did canvass B and C), or it might happen because A, B and C watch each other and cooperate. The case request is archived at Preliminary statements. It shows the claims that were made such as whether inappropriate off-wiki coordination has occurred and whether GSoW has violated any Wikipedia policies. Other claims concern possible violations of WP:COI. That has been summed up in the scope of "Editing behavior and potential coordinated editing in skepticism topics" shown on the main case page. Anyone can respond to claims made at the evidence page but responses should be brief and focused on edits that have occurred, with links. Private evidence will not be shared. It's obvious what that is about, namely an editor has (it is claimed) linked to a reference that they themselved wrote. The private evidence will contain opinions regarding that. In principle, it could be any information that would not be suitable for public hearing. When anyone's history is examined, defects are always found. The question for Arbcom will concern the big picture of whether GSoW helps or harms the development of articles that comply with policies such as WP:DUE and WP:BLP. Others will list every claimed defect, so you may like to show some edits that are good, or refute some of the claims. A key question will be whether there are recent defects (in the last few months) and whether attempts to remove defects have been hindered by GSoW participants. Johnuniq (talk) 03:45, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

So to be clear "Statement by GeneralNotability" with the three questions that I answered in my first statement is what this is all about? The evidence that is presented is to answer those questions? And do I address each of the pieces of evidence, one at a time? So you say that no one is on trial, but it does sound like GSoW is on trial. Sgerbic (talk) 03:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I don't feel qualified to help with the general questions; I just wished to note that I believe any evidence you might have that GSoW does not engage in coordinated editing would be as relevant as evidence that they do. My definition was intended to be general, so I meant editors in general - note that while coordinated editing can be bad, if done in the wrong way or with the wrong intent, I don't believe that it is inherently bad. BilledMammal (talk) 03:54, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

How in the heck am I going to present evidence that it does not happen? Sgerbic (talk) 03:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

"If done in the wrong way"? Can I get something to read that explains this? Sgerbic (talk) 04:02, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Probabilistic evidence might be helpful, though difficult to produce without access to a list of members and articles. As for the wrong way, I don't think there is anything to read, but I would say that in general it is done in the wrong way if it is not done in accordance with our policies and guidelines. As an extreme example, these companies are doing coordinated editing in the wrong way.

However, I think I will leave this discussion here, as I worry that I am confusing the matter rather than helping. BilledMammal (talk) 04:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

But BilledMammal aren't you one of the people producing evidence against me? I thought you understood all this, you just wrote that you don't feel qualified to help with the general questions, so I really don't understand now. Who can answer these questions? I have to come up with a statement by the end of the month and have no clue what I'm responding to. Am I supposed to asking these questions somewhere else? And is there something I can read a policy or something that would make it clear? I don't want to respond to something that sounds like "we know it when we see it". Sgerbic (talk) 04:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Is GSoW being accused of being a group of paid editors? No one is paid, how would I prove that? Sgerbic (talk) 04:21, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I believe the best people to answer those questions are ArbCom, although I believe Johnuniq's answers are generally correct. Before leaving the discussion, I will just clarify that as far as I know GSoW is not being accused of being a group of paid editors; the example I presented was just an extreme example of improper coordinated editing. BilledMammal (talk) 04:39, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

So where do I go to get the answers? Sgerbic (talk) 04:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

You're at the right place, just need to wait now. BilledMammal (talk) 05:20, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi Sgerbic, I've seen these questions. We (the drafters) will try to have some answers for you tomorrow (as I need to sleep). --Izno (talk) 06:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Susan. There is no one right way to present evidence and the general principles of good writing tend to apply: be concise and clear and backup your writing with evidence. In terms of scope, I think you're aware of the concerns expressed about GSoW and your editing in past discussions. You can also see the evidence others are providing. Focusing on responding to those, and providing evidence of any misconduct you've seen from the other parties, would be' one reasonable approach. You start with 1000 words and 100 diffs for your evidence, which would include any rebuttal evidence. Traditionally the committee has been fairly willing to grant reasonable exceptions (for instance we're about to grant an extra 250 words to someone), you would just need to ask. In terms of private evidence, I will need to get back to you. I think I've touched on all your big questions, but I'm sure I might have missed something important or you might have follow-ups. Please ask. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:48, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

So PLEASE can you answer my questions here? #1 Who specifically is on trial here? Sgerbic (talk) 17:21, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I certainly am trying to answer your questions. We are not a court, so trial is not the right word. But the editors listed as parties are having their actions examined. So are the actions of GSoW as a group. We are also open to evidence of broader issues with-in the topic of skepticism. You had noted at one of the noticeboard discussiond that you would be happy to lay out your full case to the appropriate people. ArbCom are those people. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:28, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Which GSoW are you talking about or do you mean ALL GSoW, known and unknown? I will lay out all the evidence when I'm given some clarity. Sgerbic (talk) 17:46, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

The specific people we're talking about are parties. There is also organizationally the GSoW to consider. For now efforts to figure out who all is a member of GSoW doesn't feel necessary - if GSoW hasn't done anything wrong what difference does it make who is a member? In terms of how we are looking at the GSoW there has been a lot of attention given to the kinds of training being given (i.e. backwards editing) and whether there has been inappropriate attempts to coordinate efforts to manipulate Wikipedia processes (i.e. Article for Deletion discussions). So there are the actions of individuals, the actions of GSoW as a group, and potentially broader actions within the skepticism topic area to consider. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:53, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

So this is a giant non-trial against myself and a group of unknown editors? Arbcom is evaluating GSoW training based on one article I wrote years ago to a an non-GSoW audience. Sgerbic (talk) 18:00, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I should add, a non-trail but evidence is being asked for, and there may be disciplinary sanctions. How is that not a trial? Sgerbic (talk) 18:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

It's an examiniation into the conduct of you and six other specific editors you can find here. It is an examination into whether the actions of GSoW as an organization have violated any policies and guidelines. The answer might be no. If it is your critics will have a much harder time making future accusations that gain traction. If the answer is yes, I would presume you would be willing to make changes. If you would, privately, like to share the list of editors who are GSoW members, so that it's not a group of unknown editors that option is open to you. I am hoping that these answers are useful in helping you understand what is going on here. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Some distinctions between this and trials in western democratic systems, include the fact that there can be more than two sides (as in this case as I don't think the parties can be cleanly split into two sides), the expectation is that people represent themselves, and past cases don't form a binding precedent. Interested parties can also give input into the resolution, both by proposing it (at the workshop), and commenting on it before it is enacted (at the proposed decision). All that said if it helps you to think of this as a trial, rather than an examination (the word I have been using) I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise but I did want to set expectations that not everyone will be thinking of it that way. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:16, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

How I think of it is a number of people consulting a council of elders regarding a problem (my understanding of that is based on my New Testament upbringing, but the concept should be understood in the general sense). The point is not to punish anyone or split the people into two sides, but rather for the elders to use their wisdom and experience to resolve the issue and clarify what the PAGs mean. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:30, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yes, thank you. How do I know that any information given privately is going to be kept privately to Arbcom members listed here only.

I completely understand that this is a line in the sand that after what ever ruling comes down, the accusers will be told to leave well-enough alone. Going forward this is a new world. I get that. Of course we will make changes, we already have as I have already said in my statement at ArbCom. But how can there be a examination of the training when the training is private and unknown? I'm not understanding the scope.

Question #2 What is meant by being related to skepticism? Is this any interaction from the beginning of an editors edit history? Only the last six months? What? And what is meant specifically by skepticism. I seem much of this "evidence" is from talk pages, COIN, user pages, threads that escalated into drama from all over WikiMedia. I thought we were talking about main pages and the specific talk page at question. Are we talking about pseudoscience pages, fringe pages, science pages ... what? Sgerbic (talk) 18:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Is there a place that I can have a private conversation with ArbCom members only? Sgerbic (talk) 18:45, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

You are a skeptic and I don't blame you for being skeptical about private information. That said, I think ArbCom's track record is strong in this area for a number of years. Every member of the committee has signed a non-disclosure agreement and also takes this quite seriously. I obviously can't share what the committee receives that doesn't ever get made public, but if you read through the archives of the ArbCom noticeboard you can get a sense of some of it. Some of the information we receive is of far more public consequence than this case and that information doesn't leak. Ultimately you will need to make a choice about your trust level.

As for how we will proceed with incomplete information, we will make decisions based on the evidence we do have. If we don't receive access to the full training, we will make the decision based on the evidence submitted that gives some insight into that training. We're trying to gather as much evidence as we can, which is why we're accepting private evidence which is quite unusual for cases. Then we're going to examine how that evidence shows compliance with policies and guidelines, report our findings, and issue any remedies we think appropriate.

In terms of what evidence can be submitted, basically everything you listed could be submitted. In general the newer something is the more weight it will be given. Something from a few years ago will probably be considered stale, unless it can be shown to be part of an ongoing pattern.

As to related to skepticism I agree it's some what ambiguous; it is intentionally so. We don't want to preempt evidence that would help illuminate the core issues at hand, but we also don't want to do a complete examination of the topic area (like some suggested we do as a sort of follow-up to pseduoscience). And those core issues are the conduct of the named editors and the actions of GSoW. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:49, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Can I have a private conversation with only ArbCom. I will answer questions there. Sgerbic (talk) 18:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

As you know the default on Wikipedia is public and transparent. ArbCom is special in that we have the option of doing some things privately. But even still there is the community expectation, codified in policy, that we will be public and transparent as much as possible. As I noted above even accepting private evidence in this case is unusual (but also necessary in order to comply with other policies and guidelines, with WP:OUTING being foremost among them). Further, it is not practice for Arbs to have conversations with parties about matters of substance; this is why there hasn't been any comments from Arbs about the evidence submitted so far. Even an extended conversation like this about procedure is a little unusual. That said, our email is most definitely open to you (for instance for private evidence). Barkeep49 (talk) 19:06, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

This is so frustrating. I'm supposed to defend GSoW training and the great editing by GSoW but my hands are tied. Surely you have seen what happens when someone attempts to out a GSoW editor? I can give you diffs of harassment I'm experiencing from editors, but why? If the scope is skepticism, then why bring in harassment on user and admin pages? It's all out there for everyone to see and there have been no repercussions, it keeps on and on and on. I am adverse to encouraging more drama, it is not healthy for Wikipedia and divides us into two camps. it is hateful and ugly and I want no part in it. I'm told I need to show good edits for myself, and I suppose the GSoW team members, but if I show anything then I've outed them here and the harassment starts. "Evidence" is being pulled from areas where tempers and frustration rages, diff's are picked without context. People are being called GSoW and their edits picked apart but they are not GSoW, I've never heard of them before.

There are over a hundred editors in GSoW today, and hundreds have passed though training over the years and they have gone on their own path, how am I to speak for everyone? We have created 1,012 English pages and tens of thousands of edits outside of that. ArbCom is going to evaluate that body of work without knowing what that body of work is? You want me to list 1,012 English pages? Even though doing so will reveal the GSoW editors that created the pages? Without that information then you are left with the cherry-picked few pages from the detractors giving "Evidence" here.

Are you expecting me to answer each piece of "evidence" that is given here within 1000 words? And you say everyone mentioned is open for me to give evidence of, even if they don't normally edit pages concerning "skepticism" and even if the evidence I'm providing is from a talk, user or admin page? Even if it has nothing to do with coordinated editing, but harassment, tone ect? That seems really far reaching. And I can give all this evidence privately to keep from creating more drama? But then they can't respond to it how is that fair to them?

I understand you are bending the rules to explain this to me. I am taking this very seriously, GSoW is a very important project. I care very strongly that I am able to continue to edit and train. So I need understand, there may be sanctions for me and to unknown editors based on the decision of ArbCom. A decision that is made up from three or four detractors giving their "evidence"? This is far-reaching and stressful. Sgerbic (talk) 19:33, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Lastly - this "evidence" I'm seeing from my detractors keeps saying "The GSoW did this or that" When they don't know who GSoW is? I don't control Wikipedia, so how am I expected to control what edits are put on what page by editors I've never heard of before? Sgerbic (talk) 19:38, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply