Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing/Proposed decision

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Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

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PD extended one week

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Hi all. Due to the press of business, the drafters are extending the estimate for the posting of our proposed decision in this case by one week. For the Committee, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:04, 14 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the notice. Thanks for y'all's diligence on the matter. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 07:07, 14 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Not a formal announcement but my personal sense is that we may be a few additional days late. Most of the PD has been circulated for internal review but there may be e.g. privacy-related blocking issues. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:34, 20 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

@L235: you or another clerk might want to re-protect the proposed decision page for this period, as the previous protection auto-ended about an hour ago. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:12, 21 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

PD now posted

The proposed decision has now been posted. A reminder for all that this is a proposed decision. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:55, 23 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Comments by A. C. Santacruz

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

The proposed remedy on GSoW membership recommends a well-publicized discussion happen but does not outline where it would be best to hold the discussion (as opposed to RfC on SI, which Arbcom suggests happen at RSN). I think outlining what noticeboard or talk page would be best for this discussion would be helpful. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:36, 23 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
Usually, the kinds of places might be the appropriate WP:VP or the talk page of the relevant policy or guideline. I'd probably personally tend to the appropriate VP for this remedy since it lies at an intersection of a couple of policies and guidelines. Izno (talk) 23:49, 23 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the clarification, Izno :) A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 00:27, 24 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
I'm somewhat confused as to Roxy and I both get simple reminders. I entirely agree with both of us deserving remedies, but am confused as to why Roxy isn't at least warned. I don't see our conducts as equally uncivil or disruptive at all, especially when Roxy's been blocked for incivility and edit warring repeatedly in the past. I would appreciate some clarification on this point. I would also appreciate some explanation of what conduct of mine was exemplary of battleground editing so I can avoid that in the future. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 00:27, 24 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Comments by Bilby

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

I'd like to thank the committee for their work in writing this - it is a complex issue and difficult to manage, and I think as a list of proposals that this is an excellent way of threading through the issues. My only real concern is that it leaves the problem of a group led by an editor seemingly acting on behalf of that editor untouched although raised, even if that editor is ultimately sanctioned by the committee. I'd like to suggest a statement along the lines that GSoW editors are regarded to have a conflict of interest in regards to the work of Sgerbic (and possibly Rp2006) as that would address the sorts of problems we saw with Tyler Henry without needing any specific sanction. I think that would be in keeping with he common reading of COI that members of an organisation have a COI in regard to the actions of that organsiation and the leadership of the same. - Bilby (talk) 23:20, 23 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

One of the issues the drafters saw that we'd like to prevent is further attempts to identify editors in the group of interest, both for the concerns regarding privacy and for concerns that that activity isn't particularly productive (as opposed to identifying editors who are here with the intent to promote, for example, which can be shown more easily and which doesn't require substantial digging offwiki and sometimes not even onwiki). What do you think about those concerns, and does such an FOF help or harm?

As for a finding of fact in that regard, I am not sure of the utility, as FOFs should generally be written with the objective of providing a remedy. What remedy would go with such an FOF? Izno (talk) 23:41, 23 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

The remedy would be a simple statement that GSoW editors should regard themselves as having a conflict of interest in regard to the work of Sgerbic and GSoW in general. In regard to digging up identities, even if the remedy was effectively was limited to those who are self-disclosed it would be a step forward, and if the proposal for a list to be provided to an independent party was to go forward that would solve any issue. However, I don't believe that GSoW editors are acting in anything but good faith, so I would be very confident that they would follow any remedy without ever needing to be identified. - Bilby (talk) 23:56, 23 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

I don't believe that simply by being trained you automatically have a COI with your trainer. Our COI guideline is, in my reading, more nuanced than that. Now I am sympathetic to the fact that the lack of transparency makes it hard to evaluate and causes some level of mistrust to exist where more transparency may not. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

It isn't the training per se, but the membership of a non-profit group run by Sgerbic. If I'm the member of a nonprofit, I'd be regarding as having a COI in regard to the actions of that group and the leadership/membership of the organisation. (Which is, clearly, why I don't write about nonprofits which I'm part of). - Bilby (talk) 00:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Comments by Gronk Oz

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please excuse me for raising this same point again, but I am concerned about difficulties in interpreting and implementing the decision as it is currently written, because terms like "skepticism trade publications" and "skepticism topics, broadly construed" are so ambiguous. If I look at WikiProject Skepticism, the topics they list as being in the scope of skepticism include all of valid science, pseudoscience, valid philosophy, pseudophilosophy, cults, and pseudoarchaeology. I cannot read the minds of the drafters, but I would be surprised if they intended the remedies to extend as broadly as that. So it leaves the question of just what is intended to be included in the scope of the remedies - more clarity would really be appreciated.--Gronk Oz (talk) 00:36, 24 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

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