Talk:Mazandaran province
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Georgian Mazandarani
Those people who delete the georgians as a people of mazandaran are really ignorant about the history of Mazandaran. There is no sophicticated research needed to know the history of georgian settlement in Mazandaran. Still many villages, town, and neighborhoods in Mazandaran bear the ethnonym "Gorji" i.e. Georgian in persian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.86.252.228 (talk) 23:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
Shameless act on denying the proud Georgian Mazandarani
Dear Behnam, Please do not remove the Georgians from Mazadnaran. I do not see any reasons of your animosity towards the Georgians. Georgians constitute a substantial part of Mazandaran. Still many towns and villages as well as big neighborhoods in Mazanadarani cities bear the name Georgian. read some historical books.Shah Abbas has settled Mazandaran with Georgians. Read e.g. Tarikh-e Alam-Ara-ye Abbasi. Read Jaygah-e Gorjian by Said Muliani, Read Iranian-e Gorji by Mohammad Sepiani. I do not know whether you are Mazandarani or not. Probably you aren't because otherwise you knew this.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:The_Behnam"
- I removed it because it didn't appear to be sourced, and others had removed it. You need to provide strong evidence that there is a significant Georgian population in Mazandaran, using reliable sources. This isn't about denying you, this is just about playing by the rules. I don't have anything against Georgians, and in fact, I don't believe I have ever encountered one until here. Please stay calm. The Behnam 18:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- the part that was deleted was in the info box of the article in the "language section". To put their language in that section you must provide citations that their population is high and they are not assimilated to mainstream society. you said in my talk page that ", but many others are aware of their Georgianness. The genetical impact of South Caucasian genes un the Mazandarani genetical make-up is confirmed by a recent research (see the page on Mazandarani people)". We do not talk about genetics here, in that sense, united states of America would be called a Germanic state not english! see e.g. German American--Pejman47 18:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- oh I see, there are no strong referrences? The things I said are no referrences? No dear I suspect that Tehrani people (Persianized Azeris) think that Georgians are Turks. No dear. Please do not deny the Iranian history. Iranian Georgians have played a significant role in the Iranian history.
- I have every reason not to be calm. I do so many efforts to provide information about my country, while some people try to give false information.
- Ok Sources so many I gave you at least 3 and if you go to the Page Georgians in Iran, you see many external links too. It is also shameless that you deleted Iran from the list of countries wher Georgian is spoken, DESPITE the fact that the page provided a link to ethnologue.
- Unfortunately in our country both Persian chauvinists and Panturkists try to depict Iran as a relatively homogeneous country at the cost of the smaller ethnic groups. Dear friends, Our country is a multi-Lingual, multi-religious and multi-ethnic country. All this diversity adds to the attraction and cultural richness of our country. Babakexorramdin
- first i repeat the Behnam " I don't have anything against Georgians, and in fact, I don't believe I have ever encountered one until here. Please stay calm." and please don't insult and attack and judge other user (I am not any type of what you mentioned!). And this article is the only article that I edited regarding Georgians in my life. And you didn't give any references to me (in fact it is my first encounter with you!) and for god 's sake, read other people 's responses before answering. You yourself in my talk page said :"Many are assimilated into the mainstream Mazandaranis". And in above I remembered you the definition of word "Assimilation" is unrelated to Genetics: "when some people is assimilated, they LOST their language and custom." and the change in the article was just about language not people. And remember that name of lots of cities in central Asia is in Persian, but they don't speak Persian. The other example is the name of cities and places in Canada, lots of them is INDIAN for example Toronto means "place where trees stand in the water"....
- You mentioned Ethnologue but did you ever troubled yourself for reading it? [1] I cut-paste its contents here "50,000 in Iran." and "Fereydan and Fereydunshahr provinces, Esfahan, Najaf Abad, Shahin Shahr, Yazdanshahr." (All of them in Isfahan Province and you see that I didn't delete Georgian from Isfahan! next time, I only answer the rational questions, take care.--Pejman47 20:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- I was the one who contributed the info to ethnologue. At that time I did not have any indications that the Mazandarani Georgians speak Georgian, at this time however there are indications, in fact it is on revival. I referred to ethnologue, because of the Tehruni guy who stated that there "live no Georgians in Iran". These guys have the mentality to deny everything which they do not know. This mindset is very annoying. And yes, you or your colleagues WERE busy with a crusade against the Geoirgians of Iran. You deleted evry single referrence to them in every page of wikipedia. Even the Esfahan province was not spared. This mindset comes from people who themselves have lost their cultural feautures and live in a homogenzing world, a largely black and white world. And I have one question. Do you have ever provided us any referrence that in East Azerbaijan, Kurdistan or Baluchistan, any Persian is spoken? Another shamless act was that they deleted "Kurds" in the row of ' persians, Kurds and other Iranian peoples" as ethnic relatives of Baluchis. No my friend, these acts suffer from what I said.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Babakexorramdin (talk • contribs) 16:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC).
Just something to add: The guys who deleted Georgians, were those who deleted Armenians in the Markazi province page, and denied that there live Azeris in Qom. It is funny that under the Mazrkazi province page stood the web sites of Ostandari and Cultural heritage as sources. These were sources which indeed reported about the Armenian concentration in the Markazi province. As I said these acts suffer either from a serious lack of knowledge, or attempts of homogenization, but in either case they are arrogant acts because they ridicule the level of knowledge and wisdom of others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Babakexorramdin (talk • contribs) 16:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC).
- I think you are confused if you think that there is a "crusade" going on here. Nothing of the sort. The 'Georgian' reference is being removed because nothing reliable indicates that there is a sizable Georgian minority in Mazandaran that retains its ethnic distinction. I don't believe there is any wider conspiracy against Iranian minorities or promoting homogenization either. So, you should stop worrying, stop attacking us, and stop senselessly reverting our edits. Thanks. The Behnam 00:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
first of all minority are you guys in california, all Iranians are simply Iranians. The terms like minority are used by anti-Iranians like Brenda Shaffer. In fact Tehrani arrogants and Californian Persians who exclude large parts of Iranian poulauation from the mainstream are not much better than she is. Secondly I brought you the sources Alam-Ara, Muliani and Sepiani. It is the top level of ignorance to call a royal historian from 17th century as unreliable with regard to the Georgian settlement in Mazandaran by Shah Abbas . If your problem was only language, why did you delete that part of history? Why you deleted the gentical research on Mazandaranis?
And I see on the Behnam's page things like Indo-Iranian etc... I suggest you better go and write about hinduism and budhism and leave Iranian ethnography and history for professionals. Babakexorramdin 02:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
And by the way you didnt answer all other things e.g. Markazi, Khorasan and the page on Georgian language. Where there no 'reliable" sources that says there live Georgians in Iran? And you even deleted Armenians from Esfahan page. Dear friend HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF JOLFA? No it is not in orange county, it is in Esfahan, and it is the cultural center of Parskahay (Iranian Armenians) seat of Armenian church for Iran and also India and Indonesia. Babakexorramdin 02:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- First, I just have to compliment how much more "professional" you are than us. It is clear and obvious to all because of your professional tone, good manners, and self-imposed emotional detachment from the subject.
- Anyway, I must reiterate that the actions of other users on other pages has nothing to do with this page, so stop insisting that we answer your questions about those pages.
- Please stop your personal attacks against other editors, and defamatory remarks about Tehrani and Californian Persians. Please read WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, and WP:AGF.
- The dispute is about languages spoken in Mazandaran now, so the fact that Georgians came and were assimilated under Shah Abbas has nothing to do with this if there is no longer a sizable Georgian-speaking minority.
- So far, no reliable evidence has been presented describing a sizable Georgian-speaking group in Mazandaran Province. You were supposed to find this but you instead attacked us and brought up irrelevant centuries-old migration issues.
- Please do not discourage editors from editing; again, see WP:CIVIL.
- Note: Further violations of WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, and WP:AGF may lead to an incident report about your disruptive behavior. Please stop. Thanks. The Behnam 03:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- I did not attack you but the mindset. Furthermore nothing proves the assimilation under Shah Abbas. I said read the sources I mentioned, moreover the reaserch by Barzegar is still going on. And I said if you have problem with the language thing, wy you deleted the whole section on the settlement? And do not tell me that vandalism in the page of Georgian language wasnt yours! I might have been very harsh, appology for that, but every other would be furious if he had spent years of reasearching and studying a subject and that someone says "oh I havent seen one, so prove they exist". I saw it as a personal insult Babakexorramdin 03:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- It was an attack on me, but I'll let you off easy for now if you realize that it is not appropriate to disparage other users. You should know that I'm not doing this to attack you or crusade against Georgians or anything like that. I didn't make any edits to those pages; you must be thinking of a different user. Don't accuse me of anything unless you have solid proof. Also, I didn't delete the entire section of anything, just the 'main language' assertion. If you know of some research saying that there is a sizable and significant Georgian-speaking minority in Mazandaran, please provide sources so we know why it should be added to the article. It is fine to mention Georgian ethnicity since you have sources both genetic and historical, but don't add Georgian as a main language unless there is a reliable source for the language assertion. Again, nobody is trying to insult you with these edits, we are just adhering to the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. Thanks again. The Behnam 03:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- I thought that the deletions in other pages were from you because of the similar IP numbers, but I might be wrong. sorry for that. But it let you see that how annoying this mindset is, and why ethnography has a hardtime to florish in Iran. I am ok with the people, and not mentioning the speakers for the time being; I said for the time-being because two of my colleagues are doing research right now. My position was that many many Mazandarani Georgians reatin their ideitity but the language is lost in the late 1970s, BUT I got new evidences due to the newest research. Not amazingly, because there has not been any valuable ethnographic or ethno-historian reasearch in Iran (except Kasravi). Anyway having said this I want to invite you to cooperate on serious first hand research instead waste our and your energy on edit and re-edit. thanks Babakexorramdin 04:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- That is odd; I don't think my IP address even shows when I edit. Yes, there is definitely an overall lack of study on these subjects. OK, if you find something you think is relevant, post it here on the talk page so we can take a look. Thanks The Behnam 13:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
an example of the mindsit from this user
Just judge objectively!:: BTW . just takle a look at the actions of this guy. Is it OK? Now tell me honestly is it ok what this Persian supremacist does? And you implicitely and explictly support him? But deffending his vandalisms against my corrections? From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia For 83.250.75.190 (Talk | Block log | Logs) Jump to: navigation, search
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14:54, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Georgian language (georgian is not spoken in Iran) 14:53, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Georgian language 14:51, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Isfahan Province 10:40, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Arak, Iran 10:40, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Arak, Iran (it doesnt live any armenians or azeris or kurds in arak) 10:21, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Markazi Province (nobody speak's armenian in the markazi province) 10:20, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Qom Province (nobody speak azeri in qom, why are you writing so much bull?) 10:18, 11 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Sistan and Baluchestan Province 23:05, 10 February 2007 (hist) (diff) Baloch people (Newest | Oldest) View (Newer 50) (Older 50) (20 | 50 | 100 | 250 | 500).
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions"
Just take a look, and be objective. Is it not shameless? Babakexorramdin 12:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- If you really think it is a big problem, you could file a report, but honestly, that guy is a very minor contributor, and hasn't contributed for a few days. He is probably not a big deal. Anyway, the problem appears to be a disagreement over the main language distribution, and considering that aside from Persian (which is obviously present in each region since it is a the main language), there isn't much info on the languages, he is probably just removing those because they don't make sense according to his knowledge. You really can't call it vandalism; it isn't like he is removing well-sourced material here. Anyway, I think a report wouldn't go anywhere. The Behnam 13:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The sources
Sorry to say this but I do not think that your newest additions with regard to the languages adds anything valuable. 1- It is evident that Mazandaranis speak Mazandarani. Moreover the artclie you brought does not prove that there is a sizable native Persianspeaking population in Mazandaran. It speaks of Mazandarani revitalization despite the fact that Persian is the official language of Iran. Moreover the article has some weaknesses; coexistence and conflict do people, not languages. Languages always coexist. Languages have no will, they are there, coexistence of languages does not make sense for ethnographic discussion unless it is linked to the coexistence of the speakers of languages. Having said this, for me there is no discussion that there is a Persian-speaking community in Mazandaran, though not a native one (a lot of them are of course the tourists in the summer time). Babakexorramdin 03:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Evident or otherwise, it does not hurt to cite Mazandarani. Anyway, the article makes it pretty clear that Persian is a main language in Mazandaran. It describes Persian as the "lingua franca," describes the decline of Mazandarani language as a result of a "widespread use of Persian," then mentioning that "An overwhelming majority of the population of the province is now bilingual," still talking about Mazandarani and Persian. There may still be more examples. The article has a great deal about the decline of Mazandarani in the face of Persian language; I recommend you give it another read. The Behnam 04:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- then isnt it fair to mention English and German as main languages in many parts of Iran? Babakexorramdin 04:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Probably not. While it is clear that Mazandarani and Persian are both used extensively in communication between people in Mazandaran, speaking English or German to each other does not appear to be quite as prevalent. For example, it is safe to say that most Americans, especially those who grew up here, know how to speak Pig Latin, but the fact that they do not regularly use Pig Latin in communication prevents Pig Latin from being considered a "main language." The Behnam 04:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)