Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of omnipotent fictional characters

List of omnipotent fictional characters

Delete article that cannot live up to its own name. This list of characters with omnipotence or "something near" it cannot be maintained. Most of the characters listed are not omnipotent. Omnipotence means having "unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful". This does not apply to fictional characters. Even within the fictional context, it applies to almost none of the characters listed because most of them can be beaten by other characters and there are many, many things most of them cannot do. Recent attempts to clean up the article have failed because of subjective disputes over the issue of omnipotence. Inclusion of any character in the list usually invokes POV. As noted at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Comics#Omnipotence, the list does not and cannot work. There can be no such thing as "something near" omnipotence any more than anyone can count to infinity minus eight. The title is wrong anyhow. It would have to be "fictional omnipotent beings" rather than "omnipotent fictional beings" because you can't really be omnipotent if you're fictional but you can be fictionally omnipotent. Doczilla 07:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I added references for 15 of them. We are not here to judge what omnipotent means, just record who has been called omnipotent by reliable sources, including primary sources. Trying to decide who could beat who is pure OR. We're not here to judge the contradictions inherent in "something near" omnipotence, either. We don't need to think about whether the Beyonder can create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it. What needs to be done is lots of citations. I'm sure there's some comic where Superman or Lois says Mister Mxyzptlk is omnipotent. Citations are what this page needs, not deletion. A renaming may be in order, though. - Peregrine Fisher 08:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, calling them omnipotent is "pure OR" when there's no objective definition to evaluate them by. If by verification, you mean published sources that call them omnipotent, that's not good enough because the article title says they are omnipotent, and the sources frequently use the term incorrectly. Marvel Comics' online definition of omnipotent is not the dictionary definition of omnipotent. The fiction sources themselves (mostly comics in this case) show examples of where almost every one of those characters is not omnipotent. If someone has been shown to get beaten, the character is not omnipotent. It is not a matter of us debating who could beat whom. It's a matter of the fact that many of those characters have already been presented as defeatable. Doczilla 08:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - too subjective and unmanageable. I can think of many other examples of characters in science fiction that arguably have or obtain something like omnipotence - there are quite a few examples just in the work of Arthur C. Clarke. I suppose it could be turned into something more objectively manageable, using some novel concept that we could devise, but that would be original research. By the way, the current title so reminds of the ontological argument for the existence of God. If there's an omnipotent fictional character, it possesses the power to make itself real, right? Metamagician3000 08:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'If we use reliable sources, there's no subjectivity to it at all. Verifiability is the novel concept that makes this objectively manageable. - Peregrine Fisher 08:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - for all the reasons mentioned above. Every character with this supposed ability has been trumped at some point, thereby disproving it. The stories say as much. Perhaps another term? "Cosmic being/deity" etc. These characters do belong to a loosely-knit "pantheon" that has assembled when required. We just need a term that adequately describes their immense power. Omnipotent, however, they are not. Asgardian 09:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a matter of whether they really are (fictionally) omnipotent, it's whether we can cite something that says that they are/were omnipotent. People are talking about this as if this is something we decide, it isn't. - Peregrine Fisher 09:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - metaphysics of omnipotence in a nutshell: Doczilla makes a brilliant point: "If someone has been shown to get beaten, the character is not omnipotent.". It seems that a central argument for inclusion of such-and-such a character in this list is "well, on page 48 of issue #386, Lois Lane warns Batman that Dr. N. E. Farious is 'an omnipotent force to be reckoned with'", which doesn't quite hold water. The characters are speaking figuratively, and I would argue that most, if not all, of the secondary-source literature would also be throwing around the label in a figurative sense - not a literal one. So it might just as well be List of fictional characters which have been called "really big jerks", List of fictional characters who have been referred to as "evil masterminds", or List of fictional characters whose mamas are so fat. I know that last sentence reads like a reverse WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, but my point is that this list is taking figurative, off-the-cuff terms and treating them as if they are literal ones (that bear some sort of measurable merit outside of pure trivia value) - and we all know where that slippery slope leads. ;-) --Action Jackson IV 09:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - meets WP:LIST, is sourced. WP:NOT#PAPER. Matthew 10:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: I can see this being a very useful list. I completely agree with what Peregrine Fisher said- "It's not a matter of whether they really are (fictionally) omnipotent, it's whether we can cite something that says that they are/were omnipotent." In arguing about whether they are omnipotent and trying to decide a threshold for omnipotence, we are conducting original research. In citing sources for what is and what isn't omnipotent, we are creating a good article by Wikipedia's standards. They have missed some key ones though- why isn't God on the list? ;-) However, in answer to Metamagician3000- the ontological argument doesn't work, and this is good proof for that. I can see myself referencing this list, and I think it would be of great interest to a large number of people. J Milburn 11:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Per the arguments above, the list would have to be renamed to something like "List of fictional characters for whom claims of omnipotence have been made", if it were to be maintainable. This highlights a notability concern, as there seems no reason that list is notable. Any character in a storyline can assert someone is omnipotent. If there have been reliable sources which discuss the question of which characters are regarded as omnipotent, so that belonging to this list is clearly a matter of encyclopaedic interest to comics readers, then the list might be justified. However, then inclusion would have to depend on those sources to avoid problems with WP:OR. Mike Christie (talk) 11:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per the excellent reasoning of the nominator. POV/OR concerns abound. Noting also that arguments like "It could be useful" and "It's interesting" are not particularly compelling. Although I must say I would be hard-pressed to !vote to delete List of fictional characters whose mamas are so fat. Otto4711 12:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep — none of the examples in the list as it stands right now look egregious to me, and compared to many lists which get AFDed, this is pretty easy to source. I don't see any reason to rename this page to "List of fictional characters for whom claims of omnipotence have been made", but perhaps "List of omnipotent or near-omnipotent fictional characters" would not be too unwieldy. Anville 13:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per the nominator, due to both WP:OR and POV concerns. The inclusion criteria as set forth by the lead section are both vague ("possessing omnipotence, or something close to it") and is full of WP:WEASEL words. That you cannot nail down a discriminate, non-arbitray, NPOV set of inclusion criteria is a sign that this is something WP:NOT suitable for inclusion. Arkyan  ^(talk) 15:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete [[WP:|OR]]. I wouldn't necessarily object to a list of actual fictionally omnipotent characters -- but this seems to be a dumping ground for any really powerful, really knowledgeable, god or godlike character out there. A few things:

No, it's not enough to "cite something that says that they are/were omnipotent." Citations also have to be reliable. Book reviews, TV listings, solitications of books, game reviews, and fansites concerned with "ranking" superhero powers just don't meet that criteria.
I see only two primary sources used in citation in this article -- the rest are all secondary sources. Of those two, one is inaccurate, and the other looks like it may actually be citing Wikipedia itself.
Even when a primary source can be found, we do need to make a determination as to whether the subjective words of a character reflect actual omnipotence on the part of the subject.

End of the day, I can't see how this article can be salvaged. Actual fictionally omnipotent characters are very few and far between, while mistakenly believed to be omnipotent characters are a dime a dozen. ~CS 17:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - As it stands, even with the current tweaks, there is a fundamental disconnect between the title and the list. I'd like to say "Rename" to something a kin to "List of fiction characters described as omnipotent" or "List of fiction characters who are all but omnipotent" which seem more in the spirit of the actual list material, but anything along those lines invites POV arguments to keep the list manageable. (ie "Where the other characters or the writers serious?" or "How powerful does a character have to be shown to get to 'almost'?"). - J Greb 18:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete- violates WP:OR and concerns about reliability of sources Thunderwing 18:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure how it violates WP:OR. "The only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources." If a ref isn't reliable, remove it. - Peregrine Fisher 19:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]