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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Essjay controversy (4th nomination)

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Essjay controversy

Essjay controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

The purpose of this AfD is to give the community a chance, for the first time since the controversy erupted, to (try to) have a cool-headed discussion about whether or not the subject of this article meets our standards for inclusion. This is a good-faith nomination, that needs a full conversation.

The first AfD, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Essjay, was closed as no consensus: the article was nominated for deletion at the height of the controversy, on the day the article was created. The AfD seemed to go off the rails, with much heated debate about Essjay and the whole situation, rather than merits of the article, which itself was in extreme flux, renamed several times over the course of the AfD with more than 500 edits on the article and a ton of discussion all over the place. The closing admin, A Man In Black, noted that the AfD was quite "messy," and his decision was without prejudice to the article's renomination.

Unfortunately the article was renommed the same day as MIB's close. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Essjay controversy was procedurally speedy-closed, as was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Essjay controversy (3rd nomination) which appeared four days later.

There has been time for the article to find its balance, and there has been time for the community to breathe a bit and calm down, although this issue is still quite contentious, no doubt. No matter what, the focus needs to be on the article and if it fits our standards for inclusion, not the subject of the article.

Now this isn't a procedural nomination with no opinion about whether or not it should stay - I do have an opinion on the matter, and I feel the article should be deleted. The media coverage that surrounded the controversy is undeniable. But two months on, one must question the significance of the events. Yes, it is significant to us, but after the initial media brouhaha, the outside world could care less. The (main) space is not for self references, I don't feel the issue is universally notable, and the issue of credentials on Wikipedia can succinctly be discussed at Criticism of Wikipedia. Thank you. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 07:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. I agree with Jeffrey. This was significant at the time, but more for Wikipedia than beyond it. Ultimately it was news for a while. But we are not here to report news- that is what Wikinews is for. We cannot dedicate entire articles everytime someone does something newsworthy. Image how many "George Bush controversy" articles we would need to do that... The problem is all the more acute where the person concerned is not in themselves notable. A valiant attempt has been made to write an article here, but it remains a lenghty discussion of an incident that hard short-term media attention. No doubt some reference to this incident (or more importantly to the issue of credential verification) can be made at Criticisms of Wikipedia, but I see no future for this as a stand alone article. The fact that it concerns Wikipedia is to my mind a red hering- we should neither delete because it concerns us or keep for fear of comment should we delete. Its simply a matter of news vs. encyclopedic content. This was the former and keeping it sets a bad precedent for our willingess to cover events of short-term newsworthiness (as opposed to true notability). The number of sources are not the issue here, but their nature and the short timespace they cover are. Fundamentally I don't think this is an encyclopedic subject. WjBscribe 07:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or (if we must) redirect to Criticism of Wikipedia. This is not an event deserving of its own article. Yes it seemed/seems like a big event to us, but lets step out of our little wikibubble for a moment... delete per nom Glen 07:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - And let me make it clear, in case anyone was wondering (as there is bound to be some), this is not an attempt to save Essjay from having a negative article on him (I was never a big fan of him) nor an attempt at sparing the Foundation or certain higher-ups from criticism (I'm not too fond of the Foundation, either). This is here because I feel the subject does not meet notability guidelines. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 07:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ASR specifically allows for "Articles about prominent people involved in Wikipedia and 'Essjay' was the subject of articles in the New Yorker, the New York Times etc etc because of his involvement with Wikipedia. How is this not notable? Nick mallory 09:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It was the subject of discussion in lots of independent, non trivial, reliable sources and I was under the impression that that was the criteria for notability. Just because it reflects poorly on Wikipedia is no reason to delete it, that indeed would smack of censorship and would leapt upon anew by Wikipedia's detractors. Just because the media attention was 'short term' doesn't mean it's not notable. Nearly every news story is 'short term' because that's the nature of news. Nick mallory 07:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Again, the deletion rationale has nothing to do with the article giving Wikipedia a bad name. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 07:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Our notability standards are clearly different to our requirement of multiple verifiable sources. You are conflating WP:N with WP:V. Every item that makes the news each day is usually reported by a number of TV stations, newspapers and there will be a few editorials. In other words, if our only requirement is sources, people would be free to write articles about each item in the day's news. But Wikipedia does not as an encyclopedia carry such articles. We have a separate Wiki for that, Wikinews. Its coverage of this controversy is very good (and is where such coverage belongs). WjBscribe 07:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Question: What makes a news story notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia rather than Wikinews? Sancho (Review me) 08:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Good question. I would expect there to be (a) ongoing reliable coverage sometime after the event, (b) some sort of wider effect/ change caused by the incident in question and (c) to have an impact on more than small community (ie. not be too local). Things like natural disasters or (for a recent example) the Virginia Tech massacre have a clear longevity that makes them worthy of encyclopedic coverage. A lot has been written about George W Bush choking on a pretzel. We don't have an article on "Bush and pretzels", but we do have one for the massacre. It seems to me a matter of commons sense. WjBscribe 08:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So there's no article on A Million Little Pieces or other 'here today, gone tomorrow' fabrication flaps then? If, for example, exactly the same amount of coverage had been given to an otherwise unnotable Government official fabricating their qualifications, would we be having this discussion about deleting an article upon them? Nick mallory 08:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I hope so. If a non-notable person is involved in scandal that gets some press coverage for a while and then passes, but no great change results from it- we as an encyclopedia would have no reason to cover it. And every reason not to - ie. WP:BLP. WjBscribe 08:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where's the Wikipedia policy that says all that exactly? It sounds like you're making that up as you go along to be honest. This incident has multiple etc sources - it got a LOT of press attention - and that's the criteria for inclusion. It is important in how it affected Wikipedia's credibility at the time and, who knows, in the future. If this had affected any other organisation and got a similar amount of coverage it would be covered here, no question. Nick mallory 08:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment WP:N says "Note 3: Several journals simultaneously publishing articles about an occurrence, does not always constitute independent works, especially when the authors are relying on the same sources, and merely restating the same information. Specifically, several journals publishing the same article from a news wire service is not a multiplicity of works." A former proposed guideline which is now an essay, WP:NOTNEWS, has further thoughts on this issue which express the views of several editors, that something can be highly newsworthy, a veritable "water cooler story" or "must see video clip" without belonging in an encyclopedia. Edison 16:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - Is the subject of mulitple non-trivial published works by very reliable sources. A very WP:POINT AfD. --Oakshade 08:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I beg your pardon? I see no reason to suggest that Jeffrey is "trying to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point", which is the policy you link to. Please reconsider so casually making a serious accusation against an editor in good standing. It was throughout the previous processes made clear that it would be a good idea to reconsider the status of this article once the dust had settled and tempers had calmed- the nomination should come as a surprise to no one. WjBscribe 08:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Wikipedia is not a news service. An item like this blew up on the internet because it took place on the internet, and events there tend to explode out of all proportions. At the end of the day it is a simple case of a person misrepresenting himself on the internet, without really damaging anything except perhaps the credibility of Wikipedia (which is very dented anyway), a very common occurrence and without any long-lasting significant implications. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Lots of things blow up on the internet. The point is this was covered by a host of major newspapers and broadcasters. The New York Times [1], BBC News [2] and The Daily Telegraph [3] for example. What exactly are Stephen Glass and Jayson Blair notable for again? Nick mallory 08:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But they are notable. Coverage in each case lasted for years afterwards and Glass was even the subject of a film. If someone decides to make a film about this a year down the line (or if those publications are discussing this by then), I will concede notability. Though it would be one hell of a dull film. WjBscribe 08:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am afraid I have not heard about the Glass incident, but regarding Jayson Blair, we are talking about a whole different perspective. Blair damaged the credibility and itegrity of a well-respected, generally reliable newspaper by printing fake stories. Essjay damaged the perceived credibility of a already somewhat tarnished website by misrepresenting himself, not by writing fake articles or hoaxes. Indeed, there are no reports of Essjay's contributions being bad. The Essjay story is less notable because the damage caused was much much much smaller, and because I cannot believe that creating a false persona on a website where people can edit anonymously is as big as a journalist getting employed in a company where there should be some serious controls going far beyond a wiki-like all volunteer "RC patrol". Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So Wikipedia doesn't want to be "well-respected" or "generally reliable" then? If Wikipedia doesn't matter then what are we all doing wasting our time writing articles for it? Nick mallory 09:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The nature of anonymous contributions without peer or editor review means that Wikipedia is not regarded as a reliable editor-reviewed and publication the same way the NY Times is. It is for this reason Wikipedia is not regarded as a reliable source. I am not saying Wikipedia is useless, because as a starting point for research, it is brilliant. However, a person writing up nonsense on Wikipedia is not a big story, it is a part of daily life here. But someone adding nonsense into a finished product like a newspaper, which ought to have a review and fact-checking process beyond anything we have on Wikipedia, and gets the nonsense published and sold, is a bigger issue. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. It passes WP:N. There is no reason to exclude this article, so... why exclude it? --Dookama 09:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Despite my heart saying delete, a dispassionate view sees it as notable and referenced. --Dweller 10:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would prefer this as a redirect, but would weakly accept keep. I don't think there is really debate about whether the content should be included. It is well-sourced and a valid aspect of Criticism of Wikipedia. The question is whether it should be an article or a section in the Criticsm article that is its parent. I am inclined to think that the section in the parent article (currently ~700 words) is more than adequate. This isn't the Seigenthaler controversy, I don't think; instead of defamatory comments about a public figure, this was basically a "personnel issue" -- an employee with a padded resume. But in the end, the decision of what to make articles and what to make article sections is an editorial one (and not an AFD topic, strictly). If this is retained on its own, however, the passage in the parent article needs to be condensed considerably to avoid the impression of undue weight and recentism. Serpent's Choice 10:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as a balanced and properly sourced record of a notable incident. We might not want to remember it, but many others do and will keep bringing it up, so that alone is good reason for the topic to be properly covered. We don't delete historical incidents when they're out of the news for a month or two. .. dave souza, talk 10:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The length and depth of the article is way out of proportion to its importance, but in light of its wide media coverage I don't see anyone offering a compelling reason it doesn't fulfill WP:N. dharmabum 11:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I originally voted delete at the last nomination, but since then I feel the article has been improved to the point where it would no longer be reasonable to suggest merging its content into Criticism of Wikipedia as I supported at the time. I don't see any reason why the topic shouldn't be covered in this much depth: wikipedia is not paper, and the article is well-enough sourced to support its content. JulesH 11:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Just because it happened here, doesn't mean we can't have an impartial article on it. Personally, I'd rather someone searching for information on the matter found out about it here, rather than from Daniel Brandt — iridescenti (talk to me!) 12:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This was a major and transforming event for a top ten website. WAS 4.250 12:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Extensive media coverage, significant event for a major Internet site, meets any reasonable notability standard, careful sourcing for every assertion. Casey Abell 12:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment By the way, any fond hope that this controversy will fade from the media is badly mistaken. Within the last two weeks, the Google news cache picked up references at PC World, History News Network, and The Sydney Morning Herald among others. This will endure in the media like the Siegenthaler incident, and will rise again in force whenever there is a publicized dispute over Wikipedia's accuracy. In fact, the Herald reminded everybody of the incident just because Jimbo happened to be in town. When public disputes over Wikipedia's reliability occur - and they will occur, don't kid yourself - we better have articles on both of the Wikipedia trauma twins, Siegenthaler and Essjay. Otherwise, there will be justified charges that Wikipedia attempted to bury the less savory episodes in its past by deleting either or both of the articles. Casey Abell 19:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Clearly notable topic, appropriately sourced article. This thing is part of Wikipedia's history. However, it would be interesting to delete it and see the clumsy cover-up make the news too. Then someone would write an article about that, which would be nominated for deletion ... . Stammer 14:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Whether or not the media attention has passed on is irrelevant, as notability is not lost over time. Tarc 15:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, a major event worthy of coverage in its own article. This is the backlash result of an overzealous desire not to talk about internet or wikipedia-related topics, when about any other organization they'd be considered legitimate. Complaints about 'short term newsworthiness' are BS. If it's got enough coverage, we can cover it, we're not paper, don't worry about it. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 15:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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