Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

Wikipedia:Reference desk/headercfg

July 1

Semantics

Latest comment: 17 years ago16 comments4 people in discussion

I guess that this is a question of semantics, so I will post it here. Assume that a woman and a man have sex (that is not in dispute) and the woman subsequently alleges a rape. The case goes to court. Either one of the following two things happens: (a) the man/defendant either pleads guilty to, or is convicted of, a lesser crime than rape (say, a "battery"); or (b) the man/defendant is fully acquitted. Under either scenario (a) or (b), in legal and technical terms, a "rape" never occurred. Under Scenario A, a "battery" occurred, and under Scenario B, no crime occurred at all. So, in essence, semantically, there was no rape. Therefore, we cannot properly call the man a "rapist." At this point, then, is it appropriate to refer to the woman as a rape victim? Or even as a victim at all, in Scenario B? Obviously, this is just an issue of semantics -- but I am curious about it.

On a related note: Let's assume that Andrea Yates is found not guilty by reason of insanity for the deaths of her children. Semantically, then, there was no "murder" -- and Andrea Yates cannot properly be called a "murderer." But, can we still properly call the children "murder victims" or even claim that they were "murdered"? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 00:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

A person can be found not guilty of a charge because of a technical legal reason, but that doesn't alter the fact that they did whatever they did. This exposes the difference between the legal meaning of a term and the common meaning. O J Simpson is not, technically, a murderer because he was acquitted of that criminal charge. But he was found responsible for his wife's death in a separate civil legal proceeding. His wife, by any common understanding of the term, was murdered and is therefore a murder victim. Even if O J had not been found civilly liable, someone murdered his wife. -- JackofOz 01:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I am not sure that you followed my point. The OJ example (your final sentence above) is not a good example, because it presumes that there is someone out there (as yet unidentified) who committed the murder and is therefore a murderer. In other words, a murder was committed; it was committed by a murderer; and we simply do not (as of yet) know who that murderer was. My two examples above (the known "man" in the rape case and Andrea Yates) are different -- because we know and have identified the individual responsible for the action. But, we have not identified the crime as a murder (or a rape). In other words, the law has stated that the man did not commit a rape. The law has stated that Andrea Yates did not commit a murder. So, the man cannot semantically be referred to as a rapist, and Yates cannot semantically be referred to as a murderer. Nonetheless, can the woman be referred to as a rape victim, when no rape occurred? And can Yates' children be referred to as murder victims when no murder occurred? Can we even say that the Yates children were "murdered" when we know unequivocally (legally / semantically) that there was no murder at all? (JosephASpadaro 05:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

Andrea Yates's conviction was overturned on the basis that she was not guilty by reason of insanity. To quote from our article on this matter, "This defense is based on the principle that guilt is determined by examining if the defendant was capable of distinguishing right and wrong". That is, nobody doubts that Yates killed her children unlawfully, but because she was considered not to be capable of distinguishing right from wrong, she could not be held legally culpable for her actions. What happened to the children did not retrospectively change as a result of their mother's conviction being overturned. They were murdered then and they remain murdered now. IANAL, but I think the law is concerned about whether or not a defendant is guilty of the crime or not, not whether the crime took place. The very fact that a person was charged with the murder - whatever the outcome of that prosecution - is based on the fact that a murder occurred. Thus, her children could, imo, correctly be described as "murder victims" regardless of the fact that the perpetrator has been found not guilty of murder. -- JackofOz 05:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

JackofOz, your response is mixing and mingling, without discrimination, the legal word murder and the common non-legal word murder. Murder is not equal to "causing the death of another person." In order for a crime to rise to the level of murder, the actor (let's say, Andrea Yates) (a) has to know right from wrong; (b) has to be sane (i.e., not insane); and (c) has to intentionally cause the death of another human being. These three requirements were not met in the Yates case and, thus, no murder occurred. If no murder occurred, there can be no victims of the murder that never occurred. Perhaps the rape case is easier to think about. After the man is acquitted (or found guilty of battery and not guilty of rape), would you claim that the woman should semantically be referred to as a rape victim? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 06:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

The reason for mixing up legal and non-legal words is that legal realities have little bearing on how a a real person talks about something. If she's your friend and says she was raped, then you're not exactly going to tell her, "stop calling yourself a 'rape victim', the court found that no rape occurred." How we talk about an event has more to do with how we perceive it than what has been proven in court. In other words, there is no one answer to your question. — Laura Scudder ☎ 21:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree with what you say. However, my question is asking about what the correct answer would be semantically (i.e., strictly regarding proper word usage). If your friend is the rape victim, that involves emotions - perhaps sympathy, heightened credibility of your friend's version of events, anger at the court and justice system for its "faulty" ruling, etc. Your second example, how we perceive things, also involves aspects other than logic and semantics. So, all that aside, I am only asking about the semantics and, strictly speaking, proper wording in such cases. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 00:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

The "proper wording" will, in all cases, be dependent upon the context. That is what almost all of the respondents are saying. You apppear to be looking for a single answer that will fit all cases. For better or for worse, English seldom operates that way. "Murder" has more than one definition; "rape" has more than one definition. The only "correct answer . . . semantically" is the one that recognizes the context. What works in the courtroom may also work in the newspaper, but may fail utterly in the living room. Bielle 02:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The key point, I think, is that principles of law may call for something to be deemed true even if it is not in fact true. In particular, this is how the presumption of innocence works. I'll take Canada as an example since I have an online Criminal Code at hand.

Section 6 mandates the presumption of innocence: "Where an enactment creates an offence and authorizes a punishment to be imposed in respect of that offence... a person shall be deemed not to be guilty of the offence until he is convicted or discharged under section 730 of the offence..."

Section 449 is typical of many that declare something to be an offense: "Every one who makes or begins to make counterfeit money is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years."

So if you make counterfeit money, but you aren't convicted of the crime, then section 449 says in effect that you are a counterfeiter, but section 6 says that nevertheless you are deemed not to be one -- as far as the law is concerned.

Similarly with the original example. "Semantically, no rape has occurred" should read "Legally, no rape has occurred", or in other words, "It is deemed that no rape has occurred." If you know or believe that there was in fact a rape and you refer to the victim as a rape victim, you might be committing libel or slander, because legally there was no rape. But if it's clear that you're expressing your opinion that there was a rape, then "rape" is the word for it. In short, as is so often the case, what's "appropriate" depends on context.

--Anonymous, July 2, 2007, 06:16 (UTC).

Is that true, though? If a person is found not guilty of a crime, for whatever reason, that does not necessarily amount to the court deeming that no crime occurred. All the court is saying in the Andrea Yates case is that, because of her diminished mental condition, she cannot be held responsible for the act and therefore she will not be treated as a murderer but as a person needing medical/psychiatric treatment. But the act still occurred; she still did it; and the children were still murdered. -- JackofOz 07:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

JackofOz - If a person is found not guilty of a crime, that does not necessarily mean that no crime occurred. Correct. However, it could mean that. It could also mean that a crime did occur, and that this particular person did not commit it. Or, it could also mean: a crime occurred; this person did commit that crime; but the prosecution (State) was not able to offer sufficient proof that this person committed that crime. In the Yates case, the verdict clearly stated that Yates did not commit a murder. She committed a killing, she committed a homicide, but she did not commit a murder. I guess that we can say, the children were victims of a killing, victims of a homicide -- but not victims of a murder (since there was no murder). In any event, this is all semantic, of course, as the original post asserted. Context, yes, is important. When an alleged rapist is found "not guilty" and absolved of the rape crime ... I am sure that he would not call the victim a rape victim. But, I am sure that the woman would call herself a rape victim, despite the court ruling. And I guess what I am asking is -- emotions aside and semantically speaking -- can she really call herself a rape victim? Can the Yates children be called murder victims? Query - Can the Duke lacrosse victim call herself a rape victim, just because she sincerely believes that she was raped (when, in fact, she was not)? But, I hear and I "get" what everyone is saying in this thread. Ultimately, I think, people just believe (and defend) what they want to believe. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 15:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

I don't know whethere any specific rape occurred or not, unless I am a person involved, and perhaps not even then. I have to assume if you know "in fact, she was not" a rape victim, as you allege above, you may be someone involved and perhaps ought to step back on a WP:COI basis. If you are saying that you know the facts because of some legal verdict, then an NPOV might suggest your knowledge is that a specific legal finding exists. I assume that finding is verifiable and that the continuing claims of the involved parties, if any, are also verifiable. We don't seem to fuss much about what is true. I also think that the Ref Desk is not the proper venue for a content dispute, however artfully inserted into an question about semantics. Bielle 18:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Your response above is unfair and does not assume good faith. I thought it was (very) common knowledge, per the media and official "proclamations" from the State of North Carolina, that no rape occurred. This is indeed an appropriate forum for my original semantics question. The Duke rape case was introduced, as an afterthought (way down the thread in line 735), to make / clarify a point. Your comment that I have posted a content dispute artfully inserted into a question about semantics, as I said, is unfair and does not assume good faith. I would love to know where that idea entered your brain? I have conspired against all of Wikipedia and the entire world to debate the Duke lacrosse rape victim's claim by cleverly inserting it into a Language Help Desk appropriate question about semantics? If that is what you think and how you think ... then clearly that is your issue, not mine. As they say, "it takes a thief ..." (JosephASpadaro 19:02, 2 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

It is difficult to read the paragraph upon paragraph above and continue to "assume good faith" in the face of the OP's unwillingness to accept what four editors have said, all but one more than once, that the context is what determines the correct language. It would appear, then, that the OP will contine to rephrase the question until someone answers it "correctly" to meet the OP's needs or assumptions. To bring in more legal language, "asked and answered" many times, is the "correct" phrase for the process.

As for the "facts" of the case, until I ran a Wikipedia check before my previous comment, I had never heard of the case, and didn't even know that "Duke" was a university. (Not everyone on Wiki is an American, and this was not a case to interest the rest of the world.) As a number of others have pointed out in this thread, we can verify what the State of North Carolina and its judiciary has declared, but only the participants "know" what happened. My ignorance of local American criminal trials is not an excuse for my having failed to check for the OP in the history of the article and its debates. I apologize and declare that I found no evidence that JosephASpadaro has been involved in the article or on its talk page, and I was wrong to suggest that he was so involved. On everything else, my previous comments stand. Bielle 22:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well, then, Queen Bielle. I was not aware that you ruled all of Wikipedia. Clearly, you and I have different notions of how a conversation goes. You think: ask a question, get a response, end of story. Period. That is most certainly not how I think. My thinking is more along the lines of a Socratic method ... to keep probing and to "test" the responses to see if that is truly what the respondent intended to state. Is that what he really means to say? Sometimes, a statement (response) needs to be questioned and scrutinized, it needs to be tested and challenged. Not all statements must be taken at face value, simply because the statement was merely made. And, sometimes, this process involves making a point, offering a counterpoint, and going back and forth a bit, etc. Certainly (at least in my opinion), that is a more appropriate process of asking questions, receiving answers, and -- ultimately -- becoming enlightened about the topic at hand. I was not aware that your way was right and my way was wrong, according to Wikipedia rules. You truly need to look up what "assume good faith" even means. Your first sentence in your above post says that I am "unwilling to accept what four editors said." Who said that I was unwilling to accept what they said? You? I accepted it, tested it, countered it, and -- actually -- in the end, agreed with it (i.e., was convinced of their position). Why is my method wrong and yours right? Do tell. Just because your method of understanding / comprehending takes one step ... and mine takes perhaps 4 or 5 steps? That makes your method right? and mine wrong? Look up "tolerance" for other views, by the way. Also, why does my method require that you violate the assumption of good faith? There are many ways to skin a cat, my freind. If your method is to simply accept what anyone tells you, and not test it, and leave it at that -- you will not only be led down the wrong path (in the worst case) ... but you will also not come to embrace / understand / accept the opposing viewpoint presented (in the best case). No, I don't just ask a question, blindly accept an answer, and trust that that answer is 100% correct -- just because some one says so. In my opinion, your method (just accept whatever people say and shut up about it, don't question it) is hardly an enlightened approach to thinking / questioning / exploring unfamiliar territory. And you were an educator for 35 years?!?! Lord help us. Please, Lord. (JosephASpadaro 23:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

Your prayers were heard, retroactively; I am long retired. Education is about process. I may have been working under an illusion, but I thought that the Ref Desk was about information, which is but a very small part of what constitutes education. (Wikiversity, I am told, is about education.) In other words, the Ref Desk can supply you with leads to, or information about, Socrates, but it is not set up to support the Socratic method, if for no other reason than the length of the answers and the length of the process. Your views about "my method", "enlightened" or otherwise, are attached to what I have to say about information and the Ref Desk, in which case you "have reason" as the French would say, to believe what you believe. However, to decide, without evidence, that I would apply the same criteria to education, is uncalled for and, in a word, uncivil.

It is also my view that none of this exchange belongs on the Ref Desk, and for that, I apologise to everyone. Bielle 23:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, exactly. So, this all goes back to my prior post. You see the Reference Desk as Step 1 = ask a question; Step 2 = receive (and simply accept at face value) an answer; Step 3 = "OK, we're all done here, now please leave." Life (and learning) is not so black and white. I obviously see the process of asking for information and receiving/processing that information much differently than you do. I guarantee you, you can look through many, many, many of these Help Desk entries. Vary rarely will an entry be in the form of one question stated; one answer presented; end of entry. Typically, one would expect a back and forth exchange. And I am not sure why that offends you. And why you do not see that as properly belonging in a Help Desk forum. But, ultimately, that is your issue -- not mine. Nonetheless, we can agree to disagree. I will obtain my information (i.e., ask my questions) in the way that helps me to understand and process the answers. And you can do so in your own way. And, perhaps, never the twain shall meet. And that's fine. But, please assume good faith when other learners (asking questions) learn in a way that is different than what you perceive as the correct / appropriate / proper way to learn (or ask questions). That is the height of intolerance. And, also, please stop accusing me of asking improper questions on the Help Desk, because my dialogue does not conform to your requirements for the correct way to ask questions and process answers. I learn in my own way -- not in your way. As an educator, I would expect that you of all people would appreciate (and tolerate) this concept. Thanks. By the way, I have great respect for teachers and I am sure -- in your 35 years -- that you positively impacted scores of students. And that is a good thing.  :) Thank you. (JosephASpadaro 04:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

English- Sentence Pattern

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

On his return, Ken found his suitcase untouched.

Could someone give me the exact sentence pattern (i.e., S+V+O and so on) for the above sentence ?

Thanks! -- 05:59, 1 July 2007 User:Meena 22

I believe the sentence would be analyzed as such: "On his return, Ken found [that] his suitcase [was] untouched."

Thus, Subject (Ken) + Verb (found) + Direct Object (that his suitcase was untouched)

"On his return" is a prepositional phrase, acting as an adverb, answering the question "when", to modify the verb "found"

The direct object (that his suitcase was untouched) is the direct object of the verb "found" (i.e., what did Ken find?)

The direct object is comprised of the clause "his suitcase was untouched" which is, respectively, adjective/noun/verb/adjective (Subject + Verb)

(JosephASpadaro 06:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

See also Small clause... AnonMoos 06:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Untouched is used as a predicate adjective.--El aprendelenguas 18:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

hang 10

Latest comment: 17 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

this guy that i really like and might even love told me to do that and i have no idia what it means. somebody please help me

Well it could me "wait ten minutes" (as in hang around for 10 minutes). It could be some new version of 'slapping 5' like a different type of high 5. Otherwise not sure. ny156uk 09:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I understood it to mean having your ten toes hanging off the edge of a surfboard. On the other hand, the original meaning of a phrase is not what you want here, but what your beloved means by it. The only way to find that out may be to ask him.SaundersW 10:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It's surfer slang. See wikt:hang ten. Through extension, it may mean something along the lines of "have a blast!" (ie, have a great time), or something along those lines. What was the context? The Jade Knight 11:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, your gentleman friend has invited you to accompany him in some recreational surfboarding. Either that or his bed is a little too short to fully accommodate you.--Mrs Wibble-Wobble 11:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

German translation

Latest comment: 17 years ago14 comments5 people in discussion

Can I get a literal translation please.

Der Geburtstag des Alpinismus

Thank you. --Doug ^talk 12:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

'The birthday of alpinism' (the birth of alpinism would probably be better, but less literal), which, according to mountaineering, is sometimes used to refer to April 26, 1336. Algebraist 12:36, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thank you, that helps -- just by chance are you real familiar with this?--Doug ^talk 13:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

No, I don't even speak German, but I can puzzle out a few words. Algebraist 14:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, also that wording looks correct to me (and I also do not know German). I believe "geburtstag" means birthday, which I have stumbled across in genealogy research. "Alpinismus" looks a lot like the English "alpinism". Thanks again.--Doug ^talk 16:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

You believe correctly (I can remember a few things from GCSE). For more obscure words like alpinismus (ismus is the german form of ism, I believe) the German wikipedia can be useful, especially the interwiki links to english. Algebraist 16:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps you or someone that knows German well can translate this, that is also related to the "birhtday of alpinism":

Am 26. April 1336 erreichte Francesco Petrarca aus Neugier, freiwillig und "lediglich aus Verlangen" zusammen mit seinem Bruder und zwei weiteren Begleitern den Gipfel des Mont Ventoux, des "windigen Berges". Weil er in dieser Wanderung aber auch Naturerlebnis, Zufriedenheit und "Erregungen des Herzens" empfand, wird er als "Vater der Bergsteiger" bezeichnet und der 26. April 1336 als "Geburtsstunde des Alpinismus".

Thanking you ahead of time for translating this above. Closest I can get is it says something about Petrarch being the "father of alpinism" in addition to something about the related "birthday of alpinism" being April 26, 1336; because of the ascent and climbing of Mont Ventoux. Then apparently it was considered tabu to climb any mountain (for religious reasons).--Doug ^talk 16:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

On 26 April 1336, Francesco Petrarch reached the peak of Mont Ventoux, the "Windy Mountain", out of curiosity, voluntarily, and "just from desire", together with his brother and two other companions. But because he also experienced nature, contentment, and "emotional excitement" in this excursion, he is called the "father of mountain climbers", and 26 April 1336 is called the "moment mountaineering was born". —Angr 19:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

That's great - thanks much!!--Doug ^talk 20:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

You're welcome. If I had been translating this for an actual article, though, I probably would having written "because it was there" rather than "just from desire", to allude to George Mallory's explanation of why he wanted to climb Mount Everest. —Angr 20:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

As a matter of fact, I recently did write such an article on "Birthday of alpinism" - which was ultimately deleted because apparently it is not a noteworthy enough event.--Doug ^talk 21:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Strangely - the result of the deletion debate was "no consensus" so it should not have been deleted/redirected. DuncanHill 22:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

See what I mean. Even though their own reference source (# 2 footnote) says "Birthday of alpinism" in German they will not allow that to be said in English so that those that read English know that it is really saying "birthday of alpinism." Anything with the wording "Birthday of Alpinism" or "birth of alpinism" being April 26, 1336, they will not allow - even though their very own reference sources say that. Also you can not say, "the moment mountaineering was born" or "represents a threshold between the Middle Ages and modern times" - even though the German article on the identical subject says this (and has said this for years). I know, because I tried to edit that into the History section of our English version on Mont Ventoux today (however it was deleted also). If you will notice at the bottom is the same reference they are using and in this mechanical "translation" it says The birthday of the alpine, which really means The birthday of alpinism. The wording of "Birthday of alpinism" or "birth of alpinism" or "the moment mountaineering was born" they will not allow in English, but their very references says this - just in German. You try putting in this wording and see what happens.--Doug ^talk 00:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Please don't use the reference desk as a way to get people to participate in editing disputes. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Russian paragraph

Latest comment: 17 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Could someone please help me with the translation of this Russian paragraph?

Самолёт должен был приземлиться. Но для этого нужно было, чтобы кончился бензин. Если останется бензин, может быть взрыв. Поэтому самолёт долго летал над Ленинградом.

I've been trying to translate this for an hour now, but my translations aren't making much sense. Thank you. --Húsönd 15:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

You might want to check it with someone who speaks Russian better than I do, but here's my translation:

The plane was supposed to land. But for this, it was necessary that it runs out of fuel. If there was fuel left, it could lead to an explosion. This is why the plane was flying over Leningrad for a long time.

— Kpalion^(talk) 16:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, now I see what I was getting wrong. Regards, Húsönd 18:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Just a tiny nitpick: to be grammatical in English, the sentence should read "it was necessary that it run out of fuel". +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Just a tiny amendment to that nitpick: Usage varies across dialects of English. American English is more likely to use the subjunctive there, "It was necessary that it run out of fuel", while in British English the indicative is acceptable as well: "It was necessary that it runs out of fuel". The issue can be avoided by rewriting it as "It was necessary for it to run out of fuel". —Angr 20:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Is it by any chance from an article about an airplane landing on the Neva River? --Reuben 03:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Names of letters in other languages

Latest comment: 17 years ago16 comments10 people in discussion

Hi all. In English the Greek A is spelled "alpha" and the Spanish X is spelled "equis".

1. Are letter "names" ever used in the native languages? (Only pipe fittings in English that I can think of (ELL, TEE) but Dos Equis for the cervesa (or is that just for nosotros gringos?).
2. Are English (Latin) letters given names in other languages/countries (Russia/China/Japan)?

Thanks, Saintrain 21:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

In Jèrriais, the word for alphabet is a b c, but the letters are not written out. In Romanian, letters are generally just pronounced as they are sounded (consonsants are given a schwa). Generally, "names" for letters are simply traditional ways of remembering how to pronounce them. In English, some of these have deviated from how these letters are pronounced. They are not meant to be written out, generally—when learning a new alphabet, they will tell you how the letters are pronounced, but very rarely will they write out the letters' "names". The Jade Knight 22:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

In French, "y" is called "ygrec" ("Greek Y"). Adam Bishop 23:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

In Portuguese, the letter W is called dáblio, which is a transliteration of the English name, double-u. Y is ípsolon. X is called xis, which sounds like cheese, so people often write x-burgers. [1] A.Z. 00:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

By the way, that reference above says that the name of the letter sounds like sheesh, but this is just the accent from Rio de Janeiro. In São Paulo, it would sound more like cheese, but without the initial T sound. A.Z. 01:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

By the way, in Portugal "x" pronounces as sheesh, but "cheese" is pronounced as in English (thus, nobody writes "x-burger" in Portugal). Another interesting name of a letter in Portuguese is "h" (agá). Wonder where that came from.--Húsönd 01:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It looks like it's probably cognate with the Spanish and French names hache ([ˈa.tʃe]) and ache ([ˈaʃ]), respectively. There is some information in our article about "H", cf. H#Pronunciation. Mike Dillon 01:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Do people from Rio de Janeiro pronounce it the same as the Portuguese because of the royal family exile in that city? A.Z. 02:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Slight correction—In French y is called "i grec": "Greek i" (seeing as the written form was borrowed from the Greek letter upsilon). The Jade Knight 03:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I belive that, in Spanish, I have seen "Y" as "i griega" (Greek i), "Ye" and "Upsilon". Am I misremembering things? Corvus cornix 16:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

If anyone can get a hold of it, an article called The Letter Names of the Latin Alphabet looks like it would be interesting. Mike Dillon 01:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

History of the Latin alphabet looks interesting too. Mike Dillon 02:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't know about colloquial or spoken Russian, but Russian-speaking mathematicians have to learn the names of the Latin letters (just as English-speakers have to learn to recognize and pronounce theta and pi). The equation "a + b = c" is read "a плюс b равно c", which sounds like "ah plyoos beh rahvno tseh".

There are also three letters in Russian whose names describe them: Й, Ь, and Ъ, whose names respectively are и краткое, ee kratkoyeh, "short I"; мягкий знак, myakhkiy znak, "soft sign"; and твёрдый знак, tvyordyy znak, "hard sign". (These are the capital forms, for readability.) The former is a modification of the letter И, and the latter two are signs that change the sound of the proceeding letter, making it "softer" or "harder". [P.S. These are not transliterations, but ad hoc transcriptions, before anybody jumps on me. =)] Tesseran 02:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The English version of Scrabble accepts as valid words all of the spelled-out names of the 26 letters of the English alphabet, with the possible exception of the spelling of W which may be a hyphenated word. I have no idea about other language versions of the game. -- JackofOz 07:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Here are two sites with the Japanese pronunciation of the alphabet names:
* http://www.kodomo-pc.com/manabuo/manabun03h0103.html
* http://www.nec-eng.com/pro/document/word/about.html
Of the two, first has the "American" names and in parentheses "English" names if different.
The second one has both Latin and Greek letter names. As a note, just as one would say "the 'f' word" in English, the Japanese will call someone a "h", which stands for pervert (変態, [へんたい] Error: {{nihongo}}: transliteration text not Latin script (pos 1: へ) (help), hentai). CJLippert 02:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Oh, in Rōmaji, they are: Ē (Ei), Bī, Shī (Sī), Dī, Ī, Efu, Jī, Etchi, Ai, Jē (Jei), Kē (Kei), Eru, Emu, Enu, Ō (Ou), Pī, Kyū, Āru, Esu, Tī, Yū, Bui (Vui, Vi), Daburyū, Ekkusu (Ekusu), Wai, Zetto (Zī) for the Latin letter names and for the Greek: Arufa, Bēta, Ganma, Deruta, Ipushiron, Jīta, Īta, Shīta, Iota, Kappa, Lamuda, Myū, Nyū, Kusai, Omikuron, Pai, Rō, Shiguma, Tau, Upushiron, Fai, Kai, Pusai, Omega. The Latin names are from the second page with the names in parentheses from the first page, and the Greek names are from the second page. CJLippert 02:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Bold text

July 2

Volume of a Human Being

Latest comment: 17 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion

Anyone know what the average volume of an adult human male would be? I know we have many variances in our physiologies, so I'm looking for an estimate using "average" healthy stats. Krys Tamar 00:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It depends. I can be pretty loud. ;-) —Bkell (talk) 02:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps you meant to post this on the Science reference desk?

Anyway, this is easy. People have practically the same density as water -- that's why they just barely float in water, and sometimes don't. So just look for statistics on weight, change the kilograms to liters, and you'll be close enough. --Anonymous, July 2, 2007, 06:24 kg :-) (UTC).

If anonymous' clever method isn't good enough, you could submerge Average Man in a tub, mark the water level, remove him, and then measure how much water it takes to bring the water back up to that level. That's his volume. --TotoBaggins 19:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

When I saw this, I thought that Krys Tamar was referring to the vocal volume of a male human. That would make a bit more sense on the Language Desk, though the Science desk might still be better. --Falconus 02:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ask Aristotle. :) DirkvdM 12:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

That was Archimedes. —Bkell (talk) 00:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ouch. Well, they were both Greeks and their names have 4 syllables and start with 'Ar'. But still, ouch. DirkvdM 06:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

words that end in certain letters

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I am very interested to know if there is any website where I can get list of words ending in certain letters, like -gry, -uous, or -uity. thank you in advance.

Rhyming dictionary has a couple of possible links. DuncanHill 14:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Also, if you are using Linux or perhaps MacOS, you could do searches like the ones below. --TotoBaggins 19:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

cd /usr/share/dict 
grep 'gry$' words
grep 'uous$' words
grep 'uity$' words

You might also want to read our article -gry, discussing "the -gry puzzle." --LarryMac | Talk 14:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Pronunciation of Popol-Vuh

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

How is Popol-Vuh pronounced?

Popol Vuh is in K'iche' language. In modern orthography it is 'Popol Wuj'. It is IPA: [[Help:IPA|[popol wulabel=χ]]]. — Gareth Hughes 20:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Liftboy?

Latest comment: 17 years ago7 comments7 people in discussion

Is the word "liftboy" used in English? If no, how do you call a person professionally operating an elevator (in a hotel etc.)? --Thick Peter 17:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Not in American English (of course, we don't use "lift" either, but instead the bigger mouthful of "elevator"). We call them "elevator operators", or perhaps "elevator boys" if they're young and male. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

There are not many such, whatever one might call them. In Canada, and most of the U.S. where I have been, almost all elevators are automatic (hotels, office buildings, department stores, hospitals) operated by the user by way of call buttons. The principal exception is where there is a separate elevator solely for the use of those in wheelchairs. Often, but not always, someone on staff is designated to operate that elevator, on an "as requested" basis, and to bring it back to "base" as it were, when the wheelchair passenger has exited. As this is no one's full-time job, it doesn't have a title. I also cannot imagine that "elevator by" would go down well in North America; I can't speak for "lift boy" in the U.K. Bielle 18:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

In the UK, lifts have buttons that passengers press to indicate the required floor, so we don't need someone to operate them for us. DuncanHill 18:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The OED lists "lift-boy" and lift-attendant" as valid words in British English. Possibly some of the top hotels still employ them.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The OED's entries for that part of the alphabet were generally written around 1902 and last updated around 1975. Anyway, a word can still be "valid" for use in historical contexts even if the thing it refers to no longer exists: you can say things like "And so he became the new managing director, 30 years after joining the company as a lift attendant."

So the answer, I think is: we don't usually speak of people in that job betcause it pretty much doesn't exist any more, but we might refer to it in a historical context. If we are doing that, North Americans won't say "liftboy" because we know the job as "elevator attendant", but British people might say "liftboy" (at least if the person is a young male) or "lift attendant".

--Anonymous, July 3, 2007, 04:10 (UTC).

I suppose a bellboy might have carried out some of these activities as well. 194.168.231.2 11:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)WesReply

In Taiwan, many department stalls, malls etc have lift/ elevator attendants, though I always say lift ladies (I'm Australian). These ladies operate lifts/ elevators for customers, they dont have any other duties. Awzium 06:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

"Odd Autobiographical Habit" - Dubliners

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

In A Painful Case, Dubliners by James Joyce, Mr Duffy has "an odd autobiographical habit which lead him to compose in his mind from time to time a short sentence about himself containing a subject in the third person and a predicate in the past tense." Could someone give me an example of such a sentence, please? Thanks in advance 82.12.214.93 18:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

"Mr Duffy closed the book". "Mr Duffy" is the subject of the sentence, "closed the book" is the predicate. DuncanHill 18:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thank-you 82.12.214.93 18:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Guys is "ignourant" ever used in old English? Or...

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

favourite, olde, and withe? I am in a discussion about language on Youtube here. -PatPeter 17:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Answered at Talk:Old English language. —Angr 19:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

July 3

French Question

Latest comment: 17 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

How do you say "How are you?" in French? Someone told me that it's comment ca va but I always heard it as comme ca va. --Confused Linguist 00:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

"Comment ça va?" or just "Ça va?", the second syllable of "comment" is not pronunced clearly (to English-speaking ears) so can readily understand why you heard it as "comme". DuncanHill 00:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Kpalion has noticed in a previous question at Reference Desk/Language [Quote] that the translation depends upon the level of formality and how many people are addressed. It could be Comment allez-vous ? The liaison between comment and allez is mandatory and it sounds like Comment tallez-vous ? AldoSyrt 19:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Comment ends in a nasal vowel, not in a consonant as suggested (to English speakers) by the spelling–this is how -ent in French orthography is typically pronounced. — Zerida 03:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Wait, now what does Comment allez-vous mean? --Confused Linguist03:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Simply "How are you?" When I talk to a friend of mine I say: Comment ça va ? or (in a more elevated language) Comment vas-tu ?, if I talk to my CEO or to the President of the French Republic, I say (formal language): Comment allez-vous ? AldoSyrt 07:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Unless, of course, you are in French Polynesia, where you would use "Comment vas-tu?" The Jade Knight 09:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

• Confused: contemporary English is unlike the many languages which make a distinction between formality and familiarity when addressing a "you." Even Middle English and Old English did so. --Halcatalyst 03:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

get baked

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Can someone tell me, what "to get baked" means? Thanks Jakob.scholbach 03:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

According to the urban dictionary, it means smoking more than the "normal" amount of the demon weed (marijuana). Don't ask me what the normal amount is (I didn't inhale, honest!). Clarityfiend 04:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ask Gingy? 194.168.231.2 12:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)WesReply

Article titles using non-english words

Latest comment: 17 years ago7 comments6 people in discussion

In my edits related to Chile I've noted that there are numerous articles about things which have non-English names. Examples, cueca, huaso, gringo, chupalla, Anticuchos, Asado, Cazuela, Charquican, Churrasco, Curanto, Empanada, etc. etc.

Some of these words have no precise English equivalent, while others may have exact or very close English words which mean the same thing. For example Asado is equivalent to Barbeque; Churrasco - Grilled beef (or meat), Empanada - turnover.

I wouldn't be surprized if there exist similar situations with other languages. My concern here is not specifically Spanish/English. What I'm wondering about is the appropriateness of naming articles in the English Wikipedia with foreign language names when there is an English word that might do. If there is no restriction, it would seem that Wikipedia may turn into a massive multi-language dictionary ... which could be either good or bad, depending on one's expectations but I'd like to know if there any is established policy or convention. --JAXHERE | ^Talk 18:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think most of those cases get away with it because those words have been imported to some extent in English. For instance, I would use the words empanada, calzone and turnover for three slightly different recipes. Foods in particular do lend themselves to word adoption from varioius cuisines. We picture something different with "wonton" than "dumpling". But, yes, we do have to limit ourselves to words in actual English circulation. — Laura Scudder ☎ 18:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

WP:MOS#Article_titles and WP:NAME might offer some advice. I agree with Laura Scudder. A turnover can be all sorts of delicacies: empanadas, knishes, calzoni etc. All with their own (variable) history, traditions, recipes etc and deserving their own article. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

This being the language ref desk I'm surpriced no-one has commented on the over-americanised English spelling. :) DirkvdM 12:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Copied from the help desk: The official designation in the manual of style is: whichever is more appropriate for the subject. For instance, Doctor Who would more appropriately use UK English, while Stargate SG-1 would use US English. In articles where nationality is not relevant (eg. Horse), then either one is appropriate so long as the spelling choice is consistant. However, it should not be corrected whole-cloth, as you describe. Edit wars over this are quite silly, and editors involved should be reminded to leave it be. -- Kesh 23:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC) -Czmtzc 14:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ehm, are you reacting to me? I was joking. Note the smiley. :) DirkvdM 06:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Will you try to sneak "surpriced" past as another Imperial spelling? :-) --Reuben 01:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

July 4

english to welsh translation

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

How do you say summer fair in welsh? (I am doing a school poster and want to write it in english and welsh)

You could have a peek at some of these sites which offer English to Welsh / Welsh to English translations. Lanfear's Bane

I'd guess it's "ffair haf," but it's been a long time since I took Welsh. Katya 02:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I always like gŵyl, but that's more of a holiday or festival. Of course, ffair translates 'fair' most accurately. — Gareth Hughes 10:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Hose hockey

Latest comment: 17 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

Does anyone know what "hose hockey" means? It was posted in reply to a comment I made on the Humanities desk, and I haven't the foggiest what was intended by it. DuncanHill 02:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I am assuming from the context that an inflatable version of ice-hockey is not what was meant. DuncanHill 02:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Maybe it was supposed to have been "Horse hockey" and the "r" just got dropped. BTW, "horse hockey" means "crap" or "shit" but in a less offensive manner, sort of like the way one would say "buffalo chips" or "cow peas". Reminds me of the time when I was asked in an e-mail if I knew of any good "layers" (it was supposed to have been "lawyers"). CJLippert 02:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thank you - I must admit "horse hockey" would have suggested polo to me... as for buffalo chips and cow peas, I wouldn't have known them either! DuncanHill 11:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think that should be "cow pies", not "peas", unless you have rather remarkably small cows.... - Nunh-huh 11:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Desperate Dan eats cow pies. DuncanHill 11:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

That all depends. The big poop plop from cows are called "cow pies" but the "cow peas" come from rabbits. CJLippert 13:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Cyrillic forms

Latest comment: 17 years ago8 comments5 people in discussion

Most Cyrillic typefaces look like roman, because the first printers in Russia were (if memory serves) Dutchmen imported by Peter the Great. Older Cyrillic lettering has very different forms. I have books on how to write various medieval Latin scripts stroke by stroke; I used to have a big book on Arabic calligraphy; it's easy to find pictures of the various styles of Chinese writing ... but I've found nothing on Cyrillic. Got any pointers? —Tamfang 05:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The first printer in Russia was Ivan Fyodorov, a contemporary of Ivan the Terrible. The Ukrainian authors credit Petro Mohyla with having westernized the Cyrillic script with a view to facilitating its learning, reading, writing, and printing. In 1707, Peter the Great adopted the so-called civic Cyrillic script for lay literature published in Russian. Some believe that it was he who designed the letters, but this is a mere speculation. Until the Russian Revolution, the Russian Orthodox Church continued to use medieval scripts for many purposes. All the Bibles printed in Russia before 1917 feature ancient Cyrillic lettering. --Ghirla^-трёп- 23:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

• Seems to me the chart in Early Cyrillic alphabet shows the letters well enough to figure out the stroke-by-stroke. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

From my knowledge of Russian, Cyrillic is never written by hand so as to resemble the printed characters. That would be as eccentric as writing English with serifs. Rather, cursive is used exclusively, so I'd advise you to use cursive, which should be exampled in a good Russian textbook (basic chart here). (When learning Russian, I was made to write so much in cursive that I acquired a more fluent hand in it than in English, where my writing still bears the influence of the Cyrillic...) Wareh 22:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Hm. At least in Serbia, one is supposed to use plain "printed" Cyrillic letters when filling e.g. various official forms, so the assertion of "exclusive" cursive use seems too far fetched for me. Maybe that's just because our Supreme Culture™ was poluted by foreign malicious elements :-P.
In any case, I read Tamfang's post as pertaining chiefly to calligraphy, and the jpgordon's answer is a good one. Here are few illustrations of the medieval Cyrillic caligraphy, and I suppose a plenty of similar can be found in the internet.Duja► 12:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

...and here are some free typefaces, quite a few of those trying to imitate the medieval calligraphy. Duja► 12:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Quite right that I did not have the special case of calligraphic printing in mind. Also, I'm sure Russians also use "block letters" to fill out forms; I was only thinking of more usual uses of writing, and I don't doubt that "exclusively" is an exaggeration. Wareh 14:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Your original comment was correct. Most Russians use cursive even when filling out forms, although some - like me whose cursive writing is barely legible - prefer "block letters" to prevent misreadings. --Ghirla^-трёп- 14:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

If he were/ was rich....

Latest comment: 17 years ago6 comments6 people in discussion

I recently came across "If I were rich......".

Now I have always said (and thought) "If he was rich (or any other adjective here)" was correct.

Can you tell me why I need to use "were" instead of "was" when the subject is HE, SHE, I, or IT.

Awzium 06:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It is in the subjunctive mood because it says something that is contrary to fact. "Was" is used with HE, SHE, I, or IT (amongst others) when in the past tense indicative mood. (it is also used with past tense subjuntive). eg.

"If I were rich, I would buy a car" (implying I'm not rich)

"When I was rich, I bought a car" (I was actually rich at some point)

A virtually identical phrase occurs in the lyrics to the Jerry Bock song 'If I were a rich man' from the musical Fiddler on the Roof. According to one website (there are many; a Google search will find one for you) these lyrics are: "If I were a rich man / Daidle deedle daidle / Daidle daidle deedle daidle dum / All day long I'd biddy-biddy-bum / If I were a wealthy man." I think that explains it.

"If I was rich" is often used in the same way as "if I were rich" in less formal and less educated speech and writing. It can also being used in contrast with the subjunctive; e.g. "If I was rich, I would be much happier, so you should give me a million dollars." "Son, most people think 'if I were rich, I'd be much happier.'" "But most people don't have a billionaire father."--Prosfilaes 10:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Some forms of the subjunctive are more commonly used in American English than British English (see American and British English differences#Use of tenses). If I remember rightly, H. W. Fowler was ready to abandon the subjunctive completely, except for a few stock phrases (e.g. 'If I were you', 'Bless you' etc.). Perhaps the subjunctive has made something of a come-back in British English since Fowler's time. — Gareth Hughes 11:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

If I was rich / if I were rich, in the hypothetical sense, are alternatives in British English. 'Was' is less formal (not: less educated). See Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, Quirk et al., 3.62.

Of course, there are situations in which "If I was..." is appropriate. Compare, for instance:

"If I were happy, I'd be sleeping better."

to

"My teenage pattern was simple. If I was happy, I was polite. If I was unhappy, I was sullen."—PaulTanenbaum 14:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Note also "The man looked to see if his son was still working," where some people may say were for hypercorrectness.--El aprendelenguas 20:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Note that in the contrary-to-fact (subjunctive) use of "were," the reference is not to the past, but to the present (or, sometimes more loosely, to the future). "If I were smarter, I wouldn't be here right now with you on this fool's errand!" Wareh 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Anglo-Saxon Biblical Names.

Latest comment: 17 years ago8 comments5 people in discussion

Parts of the bible were translated into Anglo-Saxon, we even have an article on it Old_English_Bible_translations, I was just wondering what names were used? Were Latin names used, or were there Anglo-Saxon equivalents of Jesus, Joseph, Mary, James, John etc? Cyta 08:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

They were Latin-based forms sometimes adapted to fit with Old English requirements. In small passages I have on hand, there's Abrahām, Isaāc, Daniēl, Daniēle (dative singular case form), Daniēles (genitive singular case form), Cyrus, Cyres (genitive singular case form), Abacuc (i.e. Habakkuk), Babilōn, Nabochodonosor, etc. Judea is Iūdēa-land, Jewish/Jew/Judean is Iūdēisc and Babylonian is Babilōnisc. AnonMoos 09:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks AnonMoos. With a little googling of my own I have found what I think are references to Jesus as hælend. But I can't work out if this is a modern or original translation. Apparently it meant healer. Cyta 09:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Hælend (with long vowel in first syllable, can't find Unicode character for "æ" with macron) was the Old-English translation of Latin Salvator. AnonMoos 15:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Looking at the Old-English Wikipedia, the requested names are I(h)esus, Ioseph, Maria(m), Iacobus and Iohannes. — Gareth Hughes 16:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

ǣ --Kjoonlee 17:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

And for what it's worth, it's "Crist" in "The Dream of the Rood". - Nunh-huh 07:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for all your answers, now I know! Cyta 08:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC) zReply

robert mugabe

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I am trying to clear up an apparent anomaly regarding the spelling of Robert Mugabe. There are quite a few other sites around with an alternative spelling of Robert Mugawbe or Mugawbee. I wondered if there ever was such a spelling . wiki seems not have any reference at all to a possible existence to this alternative. I wondered if there might be a historical background to the spelling which might have evolved or been overlooked with time. Is anyone able to throw some light on this or explain how these other sites seem to have got hold of an alternative. What sparked me off was that I had a faint recollection of the alternative but now there is a debate as to which one could be correct

Many thanks

DP

They seem to simply be errors. If you do a search in the News Section [2] of Google they both return 'Did you mean: Mugabe?'. Lanfear's Bane

The CIA World fact book has it as Mugabe [3] - X201 11:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Maybe they're confusing Mugabe with Zimbabwe (or, as some people pronounce it, Zimbwabe). -- JackofOz 12:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Actually, I would bet that "Mugawbee" is often an intentionally derogatory misspelling... AnonMoos 15:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Czech Stress on first syllable

Latest comment: 17 years ago23 comments5 people in discussion

If, as I am led to believe, all Czech words without exception are pronounced with the primary stress on the first syllable, does this mean that Czechs would pronounce Martina Navratilova's name MAR-ti-na NAV-ra-til-o-va? -- JackofOz 12:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Sure. Only one-syllable prepositions and proclitica and enclitica are exceptions. Such a preposition takes the stress; pro Martinu (for Martina) would have stress on the preposition. Proclitica and enclitica (reflexive pronouns, auxiliary verbs, etc.) have no stress in Czech. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 13:30, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

In addition, all of the "a" vowels are broad, as in "star," not short, as in "cat." The latter vowel, IPA /æ/, doesn't exist in Czech. Also, the second and third a's in "Navrátilová" have accents on them, so they should be held twice as long as a normal "a" vowel. Oh yeah, don't forget to roll the r's, as in Spanish. -- Mwalcoff 22:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

OK, you might also want to know that both of the written Ts are pronounced as palatal consonants, IPA [c], not alveolar consonants, IPA [t]. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 00:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Although the difference between /t/ and /c/ may be too little to worry about... I've never even noticed that Czechs pronounce the letter "t" in a manner different from that of English speakers. -- Mwalcoff 01:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I wouldn't agree that the difference is too little to worry about. /t/ and /c/ are phonemes in Czech! Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 09:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It would be a little surprising if they didn't. I've studied Russian and have had exposure to some other Slavic languages, so I can appreciate the distinction being made here. Apart from differences in the tongue positions, the English T is somewhat more "breathy" than the Slavic Ts I've heard. I was aware that Czech Rs are rolled, As are always long, and accented As are twice as long as unaccented ones. Thanks for the replies. -- JackofOz 03:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I suppose you are referring to the fact that the English [t] is aspirated in most positions, while the [t] in Czech is never aspirated. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 14:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Dead right, Daniel. -- JackofOz 22:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'm certainly aware of the difference between the letters "t" (/t/) and "ť" (with the haček, /c/) in Czech. What I was not aware of, or had forgotten, is that a "t" before the letter "i" gets palatalized. While it's easy to hear the difference between /tɛ/ and /cɛ/, it's harder to hear the difference between /tɪ/ and /cɪ/, or /ti/ and /ci/. At least, I never noticed this in conversation. Incidentally, the IPA's use of the letter "c" to represent the palatal equivalent of /t/ is really confusing. -- Mwalcoff 01:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Just a little correction. :) "Ť" is not a palatalized "T"; it's a palatal consonant. A palatalized "T" is often pronounced by foreigners instead of the palatal [c]. Palatal and palatalized consonants are very different, at least in Czech. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 09:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Now I'm confused. While I'm not too familiar with Czech, I'd expect "Martina" to be pronounced /'martʲina/ rather than /'marcina/. You have just underlined the difference between "Ť" ([c]) and "T" ([t]), yet you said that it should be /'marcina/ in your second post in this thread. Which is it, then? Does "ti" yield /tʲi/ or /ci/? Duja► 11:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It's [marcina] of course. The palatalized [tʲ] would be very unusual for a native speaker; however, it is often used by foreigners who have not yet learned how to pronounce a [c]. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 12:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

So, -ti- (always?) produces [ci], (except perhaps in borrowings, right?). What about -te-? I gather, Ť is then used in a similar way as French Ç (i.e. to denote [c] where subsequent vowel is back). You should better add that info to Czech phonology than explain fine nuances to curious foreigners at RD/L :-). Duja► 12:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, in originally Czech words, written -ti- is always [ci]. In loanwords (esp. from Latin), it is [ti]. Writte -te- is [te], but written -tě- is [ce]. I can't tell much about the similarity with French; my knowledge of French pronunciation is not good enough for that. OK, I'll take a look at the article asap to see where some additional information would be useful. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 14:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It seems the article already has the information that we have been discussing here, doesn't it? Please check Czech phonology#Orthographic notes. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 15:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ah, I guess no one bothered to scroll down enough; I'd say that indicates that the section is not well placed.
As for French: -ci- and -ce- normaly produce [si] and [se], while -ca-, -co- and -cu- produce [k]. So, in order to indicate etymologic origin of -c- before back vowels but maintain [s] sound, one must add the cedilla. Compare France [fʁɑ̃s] and François. [fʁɑ̃nswa] Duja► 15:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

A warning: to my ear, stress and pitch do not correspond in Czech as they do in English. For example, to me, the second syllable in zavírají "they close," heard on the Prague metro, sounds like the stressed one. I guess it's because it has the highest pitch in the word. I am willing to believe that linguists and native speakers hear the stress on the first syllable of such words, but it is nearly impossible for me as an native English speaker. --Cam 02:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Sure, the lenght of a vowel very often doesn't correspond with the stress. This is one of the aspects that makes Czech pronunciation difficult for example for German speakers. The stress in Czech doesn't go with the syllable with a long vowel, but—say—with the louder vowel. Except for some dialects close to Polish, it is always on the first syllable in proper pronunciation. I hear that word from the recording on the subway almost every day, but I never noticed that it could be pronounced in a strange way. I'll check that. ;) Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 09:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

After you've done that, you can give us - well, me at least - a lesson in how to pronounce Ř. I'm a natural mimic and can master most sounds quite quickly, but this one still defeats me. I can approximate it as Ž, which is good enough for most purposes, but that's not really the sound I want to make. -- JackofOz 13:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

FWIW, in Serbian it's transliterated as "rž" (/rʒ/), (e.g. Dvoržak) which (I assume) gives an approximately good result, especially if you manage to "merge" the sounds enough. At least, that was my superficial impression when listening to Czech. Duja► 15:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well, I am not sure what's the best way to learn this. Actually, I don't think I've ever heard a foreigner pronounce Ř properly. The sound first appeared (approx. in the 13th century) as an assibilated rolled R. Try adding some sibilance to the R and you should be close to a proper Ř. Also note that Ř can be both voiced and voiceless. Little children—when learning to write—sometimes ask how to spell the other Ř, so it obviously sounds rather different. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 15:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

That's quite a challenge you've set me, Daniel: the first foreigner to pronounce Ř properly. I'll get back to you when I've achieved it. :) -- JackofOz 02:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Carachter Name

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I need help choosing a male carachter name for a fan-fic and I decided to use a japanese name (for I chose Rin as another carachter). Could you give me a few suggestions for some names? (Please type them in english) -I PWN U ALL 16:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

This site (http://www.babynology.com/japanese_babynames.html) has a list which includes 'most popular'. Hope this helps ny156uk 17:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ugh stay away from that site if you want Japanese names. It's a mess. If you're looking for male given names from Japan, Ichiro, Jiro and Mitsuro are very dull names. I'm personally familiar with... Kaoru, Kojiro, Taro, Kotaro, Sentaro, Nobu, Hiroshi, Hiro, Nobuhiro, Shinji, Shingo, Shin-ichi, Shinnosuke, Daisuke, Hide, Hideki, Hiroaki, Akira, Takeshi, Shun, Ryoji, Makoto, Takaharu, Takaki, Jinpachi, Jintetsu, Takao, Kanzaki, Koji, Katsuhiro, Ken-ichi, Haruki, Kengo, Kazuo and Ken.

If you're looking for surnames, Nakamura, Yamada, Tanaka, Kimura, Suzuki and Saito are dull names. I can't quote many surnames from the top of my head.. --Kjoonlee 17:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

this might help a bit - it's a guide to what Japanese surnames mean. You could find something that fits your character's personality or actions.

Actions during speech

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

In a bit of writing I'm doing, one of the characters glances at someones nametag while addressing them. The way I've done this ,“All right, thanks… (Norman glanced at the man’s nametag)…Roger”, seems a little odd. What's the best way to do this (should the quotation marks be closed first, and does it need brackets)? Laïka 17:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

How about: "All right, thanks, ... Roger", Norman said, glancing at the man's nametag? It's clear enough that the glance took place during the ellipsis. —Angr 17:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

If you need to have the description in the middle of the quote, then yes, you need to close the quotation marks first. You don't need parentheses. However, this construction is a bit tricky, because anything like "Norman glanced at the man's nametag" is a complete clause and can't be joined on with commas. I would recommend either "All right, thanks ..." Norman said, pausing to glance at the man's nametag, "Roger." a la Angr, or "All right, thanks,"—he glanced at the man's nametag—"Roger." The latter is less formal, and would not be acceptable for a newspaper, but may be fine for your purposes. Tesseran 18:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Newspapers don't normally report dialogue in this manner at all. In a work of fiction it would be fine, I'd say. --Anon, July 5, 2007, 06:31 (UTC).

Translation of obscure German term

Latest comment: 17 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

What does geleute mean? I have searched many dictionaries and I have not found it in one. The context is a late 19th century Austria-Hungarian (Galician) legal document, in the form: “(name) Tochter der geleute (husband) und (wife) (family name)”. Then again, I may have misintrepreted it as the document is written in old German cursive, which I could only readt with the aid of a chart. Ratzd'mishukribo 20:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I can't find it in any dictionaries either. It looks like a collective form of Leute "people", and from the context you'd expect it to mean something along the lines of "married couple". All I can find on the Web are misspellings or archaic spellings of Geläute (a ringing noise), which doesn't make sense here. Any chance of uploading a scan of the original document? —Angr 20:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It is fairly easy to find the spelling Geleute (neuter) in reference to the tolling of bells (Glockengeläute). But here's a source for the meaning "a suite of persons accompanying a lord or high personage," which if not immediately relevant to the document as reported by Ratzd'mishukribo at least suggests the existence of a form related to Leute. Wareh 15:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It seems that I deciphered the cursive wrongly after all: in another document written more clearly in the same hand it is spelled Eheleute. Thank you. Ratzd'mishukribo 20:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well, that clears that up! Now that you mention it, though, I can see how Eh in Sütterlin or Kurrent handwriting could look like G. —Angr 06:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

July 5

Vowels

Latest comment: 17 years ago16 comments9 people in discussion

As a school child, I was taught (and made to memorize in a rather sing/song fashion) that the vowels of the alphabet were "a, e, i, o, u, ... and sometimes y and w". Can anyone give me examples of the letter "w" serving as a vowel? They did not simply add the "w" in to make the poem/song actually rhyme, did they? Thanks. (Question assumes the English language.) (JosephASpadaro 21:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

cwm springs to mind. DuncanHill 21:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

And W#As_a_vowel_in_English will tell you more. DuncanHill 21:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

W is a vowel in Welsh (eg mwng). Totnesmartin 22:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

"W" can be a Semivowel, which is the second part of a dipthong (i.e. "cow"). Katya 23:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well, I guess ... but Welsh is not English ... does that really "count"? (JosephASpadaro 01:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

Cwm and crwth are established English words; look in any good English dictionary. Words that originated in foreign languages are adopted into English all the time. And then there is the diphthong ow, as mentioned by Katya above, which occurs in many words of ancient Anglo-Saxon origin, such as all four words of "How now, brown cow". —Bkell (talk) 03:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well apart from cheating foreign words (I don't care how established, their use of w is not an English use, e.g. the English word for cwm is combe), w naturally comes as a dividing sound between vowels in dipthongs, so it is sometimes difficult to differentiate. For example the word vowel (vah-w-ul? or vaul?) it looks like a consenant, but vowel rhymes with foul (when I say it atleast) which has no consenant, and owl which has the w like a vowel. I think it refers to something like this. Cyta 07:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I see. The "owl" example makes sense. It is pronounced ow ... wool. Hence, 2 syllables, 2 vowels. Makes sense. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 07:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

Yes that is called a dipthong. I only read about these recently so many vowel sounds we think of are actually longer. Try holding the vowels longer, for dipthongs it's impossible to sustain the original vowel sound. There are also triphthongs! Cyta 07:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

If it means anything, when I was in my early days of schooling learning the vowels (about 18 years ago), I was taught "a e i o u, and sometimes y." There was never any mention of w, I suppose, since it appears only in words that young readers would never encounter. (In fact, those words are new to me even now!)--El aprendelenguas 21:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well, perhaps -- but "owl" is a common enough word for young children. (JosephASpadaro 01:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

Cyta, the words "combe", "coomb" and "comb" are all variant spellings meaning the same thing as the Welsh word "cwm". But all four words, including "cwm", are accepted members of the English lexicon. If you disregard all borrowings from other languages, there wouldn't be a great deal of English left. Remember also that many of those borrowings occurred before there was such a distinct entity as "the English language", so why should we accept pre-English borrowings but not post-English borrowings? The borrowing process not only continues unabated but is more prevalent now than ever. That's one of the things that makes English such a live, flexible language. (Oh, and as we're discussing vowels and consonants, it's spelled consonant, not consenant. It's ultimately from the Latin sonare, to sound. :) - ). -- JackofOz 02:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I also learned "A, E, I, O, U, and sometimes Y," with no mention of W as a vowel. If odd or unusual words serve as evidence, we can add sometimes M, sometimes L, sometimes R, and maybe even sometimes P. --Reuben 16:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

... that's pushing it ... (JosephASpadaro 01:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

As I reflect, I guess I went to a great (i.e., progressive) grammar school! And, not for nothing, the learning device actually did rhyme. (JosephASpadaro 01:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

Ya vs. ahora

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

According to my Spanish dictionaries, "Ya" and "ahora" both translate as "now." Are they interchangeible or not?

"Ya" can also mean "already", among other things; its translation is very context-specific. "Ahora" pretty much always means "now", although it can be more like "soon" or "just now" depending on the tense of the verb it is with. So, no, they aren't interchangeable. Mike Dillon 01:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

What Mike said. I would go further and say that although "ya" technically can be used to mean "now", rarely is it used this way in everyday conversation. In normal conversation, you can expect "ya" to mean "already", "ahora" to mean "now" and "ahorita" to mean "soon". Context note: This is from my experience with Mexican Spanish - usage may vary according to ___location. 152.16.188.111 03:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The main idiom I'm familiar with for "ya" meaning "now" is "ya es tiempo de", as in "Ya es tiempo de salir": "It's time to go now". It would still make sense to translate that as "It's time to go already", but I think "now" is a more common way to express that notion in English. Mike Dillon 14:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I am married with a child - English grammar

Latest comment: 17 years ago12 comments7 people in discussion

Is the sentence "I am married with a child" correct ? Does it convey that I am married and have a child? Can it be used in place of "I am married and I have a child" ? -- WikiCheng | Talk 05:04, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The more colloquial form would be: "I am married and have a child" or even "I am married, with one child." I can't say that your example is wrong, but even just inserting a comma: "I am married, with a child" looks better to me. Bielle 05:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It could be confusing for old-timers who refer to being married with someone, rather than married to someone. That is, it might be interpreted that the person's spouse is a child. Unlikely, but possible. -- JackofOz 05:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

At the very least, then, a presenter at a NAMBLA convention might want to use the comma to distinguish between two plausible meanings. Joe 00:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I disagree with Bielle; correctness aside, "I am married with a child" seems more conversational, less formal, more colloquial. Of course you can add a comma, but as written "I'm married with two kids—I can't just fly halfway around the world whenever I like!" describes one situation with two facets, rather than two situations. Tesseran 06:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree that it could be wrongly interpreted (by someone who is not proficient in English). I wanted to know if the sentence is grammatically correct. -- WikiCheng | Talk 05:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think it is grammatically correct. There was even a TV show called Married with Children but I wouldn't take that as an endorsement of your grammar, TV shows have made mistakes before. I agree with Bielle a comma would clear up confusion. PS Jack, is 'married with' possibly an Australianism? I am not exactly an old timer but I have never heard this, it sounds more American English to me as a Brit (like talk with)? Cyta 07:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It looks perfectly correct to me.

I have never heard someone say "maried with" when indicating their spouse - one is "married to" someone. DuncanHill 08:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

"I am married and with child" would indicate that one was pregnant. DuncanHill 13:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

To be candid, I can't say I've ever heard any live person say this either. But I have read it in books and plays, such as Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 2:

• O, that this too too solid flesh would melt ... That it should come to this! But two months dead: nay, not so much, not two ... Frailty, thy name is woman! ... O, God! a beast, that wants discourse of reason, Would have mourn'd longer -- married with my uncle, My father's brother, but no more like my father Than I to Hercules: within a month ... But break, my heart; for I must hold my tongue.". -- JackofOz 12:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

From the OED: 1. intr. a. To enter into the state of matrimony; to take a husband or wife. Also with †to, (Sc.) †upon, with (now usu. regional). [Sc. is Scottish.] Tesseran 06:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I've heard non-native speakers, including, I think, French speakers, perhaps because se marier avec is used with some frequency in informal speech, use the married with locution to refer to marriage on a few occasions, but I would imagine that the most frequent use by native speakers of with is in the figurative context, as, e.g., in the Martha Stewart line of mousetraps marries/weds utility with beauty. Joe 00:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Latin translation?

Latest comment: 17 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

I wonder if anyone would be so kind as to help me translate the sign "Mind your head" (when, for example, a doorway is low) into latin? Thank you!

How about cave ad capitem? --Anonymous, July 6, 2007, 08:05 (UTC).

No, caveo means "beware, be on one's guard", and it doesn't take ad, and the accusative of caput is caput. Cave caput and Cave ab capite would mind "Be on your guard against your head" (as if warning you that your head was about to attack you). I think Cura caput would come closer to "watch your head". —Angr 14:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Sorry about the inflection; I forgot heads were neuter. But I checked caveo in Cassell's Latin Dictionary before posting, and it does have at least one example with ad similar to this (although with an abstraction, not a body part; I don't have the dictionary with me now to quote it exactly). As the meaning of "mind" in this context is "be on your guard", not "take care of", I think cave ad caput is correct. --Anon, July 6, 21:30 (UTC).

I have Cassell's too; I found the quote you mention (I see cavere is used with ad in this sense; I hadn't looked far enough down in the entry!). The quote is "satis cautum tibi ad defensionem", which is from Cicero's prosecution of Gaius Verres; it has been translated "that you had taken sufficient precautions for your defence". I guess "Mind your head" can be paraphrased "Take precautions for your head", though it sounds a little too organized and pre-planned. I've looked through a lot of sources and haven't found any examples of someone saying, "Watch out!" in Latin. Maybe we could simply rephrase the sign the questioner wants to paint and have it say simply CAPVT DEMITTE "Duck your head". —Angr 06:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It's been decades since I had to learn Latin, but what about the form "(animum) attendo", or "ad caput (animum) attendite" for "mind your head"? (Not sure about the word order) ---Sluzzelin talk 15:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I thought about that too, but that's really "Turn/Direct your attention to your head". —Angr 16:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

According to Lewis & Short attendo can also be used without animum in the sense of to mind, give heed to.[4] This absolute use can take the accusative: Caput tuum attende. Another possibility is animadverto.[5]  --Lambiam^Talk 17:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

There is a particularly low ceiling above a stairway in the building for our faculty (where Latin is very important), on which someone has posted a sign saying, as Angr suggested, "cura caput." Adam Bishop 22:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

July 6

Marriage in the late 18th century

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hi, I am to do a project on marriage in the late 18th century, are there any recommended sites? Thanks.

You may want to try asking this on the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities.-Andrew c ^[talk] 14:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

What is the definition of Andalusian Effect?

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello, I have been searching for the meaning of the term Andalusian effect but so far can only find it in use in sentences with no indication to what the meaning is. If there is anyone who can help me to better understand this term, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Yvette laFrance

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Andalusian states - "From, or pertaining to, Andalusia" (from the Arabic name for Iberia, الأندلس (al-andalus), so an Andalusian Effect would be an effect pertaining to Andalusia. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22Andalusian+effect%22&meta= shows it used in reference to the 1947 Indian partition a number of times and in reference to an influence in decorating style. Lanfear's Bane E-mail address removed.

\ Saying an Andalusian effect is a effect from Andalusia is like defining Spanish flu as a flu from Spain. What is referred to is the triumphal purging of the Moors from Andalusia, their last stronghold in western Europe. Partitioning India resulted in huge pressures for Muslims to move to Pakistan, "their" portion of the Raj, thus leaving only the architectural relics of Islamic rule in India. alteripse 21:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't think they are quite comparable, the Spanish Flu was named due to the pandemic having received greater press attention in Spain than in the rest of the world, according to the article. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say "...would literaly be an effect..." and "...however in this instance it may have been more likely to refer to...". The question however did not indicate the circumstances in which the phrase had been seen, so I provided links to a number of examples. Lanfear's Bane

Urdu translation help

Latest comment: 17 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion

Someone added this interwiki link to the Jesus article: ur:عیسٰی علیہ السلام آسمانوں پر زندہ اٹھالۓ گۓ اور قریب قیامت نزول فرمائیں گے. The article title seems rather long to just say "Jesus" or "Jesus of Nazareth" or "Jesus Christ", so I am curious what on earth it does say. Any ideas?-Andrew c ^[talk] 15:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It appears to be a redirect. The title of the actual article only contains the rightmost (last) four words. 71.146.171.255 05:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)اReply

Correction: the title only contains the rightmost (first) four words. =) Tesseran 07:20, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't speak (or even read) Urdu, but the article title seems to read something like "ʿisa ʿalih as-salaam". The first word is the name of Jesus in Persian (so perhaps in Urdu also), a quick Google suggests the middle word means "prophet", and the last word means "peace". My best guess for the short title is thus "Jesus, Prophet of Peace" [capitalization mine]; for the long one, you'll have to wait for someone who speaks at least a little Urdu. Tesseran 07:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

There is a little mystery here. The top line presumably means something like "redirected from ur:عیسٰی علیہ السلام آسمانوں پر زندہ اٹھالۓ گۓ اور قریب قیامت نزول فرمائیں گے". However, if I go to the page and follow the redirect link given there (after the ↩ symbol) to ur:عیسٰی_علیہ_السلام, I see a quite different article. How is that possible?  --Lambiam^Talk 13:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think there were two different articles on Jesus under two different names, and someone is right now in the midst of merging them. There are also some double-redirects in the mess. When I first looked yesterday at the link provided in the question above, it was not a redirect, it was an article. —Angr 17:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, when the link was first added to Jesus yesterday, there was an article there. Seems like something is going on. Thanks for the info on the short version title. Any clues on the longer title?-Andrew c ^[talk] 19:45, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

quarire (Italian word)

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Lot's of pages link to this in wiktionary, but there is no page for this yet. Does anyone know what it means? 68.231.151.161 17:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

All (or nearly all) of the linked words are supposedly forms of this supposed verb. Perhaps someone found the infinitive and deleted it because it is not an Italian word but neglected to delete all of the linked forms? All of the instances of "quarire" that I found via Google seemed to be typos for guarire. Marco polo 20:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Latin

Latest comment: 17 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Any recommendations for online resources, preferably free ones, for learning to read and write Latin? --Carnildo 23:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

You might like to browse some of these results - http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=learn+latin+free+online&meta= . Lanfear's Bane

It's not free, but you can probably get an old copy of Wheelock's Latin for close enough. I think mine (1963 paperback edition) cost about $5 at the local used book store. Pretty good deal when you realize it's still one of the big standard texts. No experience with online resources though. — Laura Scudder ☎ 00:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

You could try wikibooks and wikiversity Storeye 04:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

You might find useful the LatinStudy groups and resources (keep an eye out for a new beginner's group). It really is worth the money to get hold of a copy of Wheelock's Latin (ISBN 0060783710). Once you're beyond a beginning textbook and ready to read some real Latin literature, then there are some helpful online resources, so you should come back and ask again then. Wareh 20:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

July 7

english langauage

Latest comment: 17 years ago10 comments7 people in discussion

what is the difference in the ues of "few" and "a few" in sentances. 59.92.24.175 10:11, 7 July 2007 (UTC)KalyanReply

When you say you have "a few" books, you mean you have some books; when you say you have "few" books, you mean you hardly have any books. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 10:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The English Language Reference Desk would also be a great place to ask this sort of question. The Jade Knight 10:50, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Hardly. That's apparently moribund - there have been no postings to that Wikiversity site since 23 April. -- JackofOz 02:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Hardly. Go look again. Questions always get answered promtply there. The Jade Knight 03:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

A few has a rather positive connotation, or an optimistic point of view, as in

—Do you have any friends?

—I have a few.

Few, on the other hand, has a rather negative connotation, or a pessimistic point of view, as in

—Do you have any friends?

—I have few.

In other words, a few has a meaning closer to "some", whereas few means something more like "hardly any."--El aprendelenguas 21:50, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, that's a good way of putting it. DuncanHill 21:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

And quite a few means "many". —Tamfang 06:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Quite. -- JackofOz 13:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

And not a few also means "many". The Jade Knight 03:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Subjunctive and Bob Dylan

Latest comment: 17 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

In his song [License to Kill] Bob Dylan uses many times the subjunctive (or it seems for me to be so): "he can do with it as he please", "she just sit there...", "she say who..." I read the Wikipedia page Subjunctive and I did not find how to understand the Dylan's lyrics. Could someone be so kind to explain me the usage of subjunctive by Bob Dylan? (I know that The Jade Knight is lobbying for the English Language Reference Desk... Next time I'll ask there). AldoSyrt 16:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't think those are subjunctives. I think those are nonstandard indicatives. AAVE, for example, does not usually use the -s marker on third person singular present indicative verbs. —Angr 17:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Compare with the Beatles' "Here come ol' flattop, he come groovin' up slowly." Tesseran 22:50, 7 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thank you. Thus, I am to understand that the usage of "non standard" indicative refers to such or such social group (in a large sense). — AldoSyrt 08:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

In a very large sense, yes. Basically, if you want your song to sound bluesy, you sing it in the dialect of English used by African-Americans, or at least in what you as a white Jewish boy from Minnesota (in the case of Dylan) or a group of white boys from Liverpool (in the case of the Beatles) believe to be the dialect of English used by African-Americans. —Angr 08:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ontario Secondary School Literacy Test

Hello. I googled the title above; I can only find tests later than 2005 and a sample. Where can I find tests dated 2005 or earlier? If it is not possible to obtain these past tests, please let me know. Thanks in advance.

July 8

Essays

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hi, it is not right or unacceptable to use subheadings in an essay? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.250.142.231 (talk • contribs) 07:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it depends on the length of the essay. An essay that's only a few hundred words long probably isn't detailed enough to require subheadings. One that's several thousand words long might be. —Angr 08:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

80's / 90's childrens book

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I was wondering if anyone remembers childrens book called manilla gorilla or morilla gorilla? I am trying to find a copy and I cant even find reference to this on the internet through any search engine. Does anyone know abou the book I am thinking of?

Thanks Allison —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.184.162.38 (talk • contribs) 09:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

How about Vanilla Gorilla by William New, ISBN 978-0921870579.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Or a book based on the TV series Magilla Gorilla. --Anonymous, July 8, 2007, 20:44 (UTC).

...of which there are several.[6]  --Lambiam^Talk 21:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

translation

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have found something written in what looks like greek, apart from a few letter, which somehow aren't. I would like to know what it means, but my attempts at translating it haven't worked. Searching for any of it on wikipedia and wiktionary hasn't helped either. So I have come here to ask how I should go about translating it into english. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.142.87.10 (talk • contribs) 11:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you upload a scan of it so we can see what it looks like? —Angr 11:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Latin translation

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Does anybody know what "Vitreo daturus nomina ponto" means? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KeeganB (talk • contribs) 12:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Literally, "about to give names to a glassy sea". It's an allusion to Icarus, said by Horace of anyone trying to imitate Pindar (a modern writer would have said "They'll crash and burn"). —Angr 12:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Identify this Asian glyph

Latest comment: 17 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

 

Can someone identify the rightmost glyph in this image? Ideally, I need to know the Unicode codepoint. Thanks a lot! --bdesham ★ 14:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think it's a form of 文 (U+6587). --Ptcamn 14:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The exact same glyph appear in the stroke order demonstration found with the Wiktionary entry: 文. Mike Dillon 15:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thank you both for your responses! U+6587 was what I wanted. --bdesham ★ 17:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Assistance =

Latest comment: 17 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

1. I am looking for someone to help me with the following languages: Japanese (according to the Wiki scale, I'm on level 3), French (2), Arabic (2), Mandarin (1), Russian (0), Farsi (0), Old English (0), and Aramaic. I am a native in Hebrew, so I can exchange languages.
2. What does it say in the Greek quotes in Wilde's 'Lotus Leaves' and 'The True Knowldege' (not appearing in Wikisource, for some reason)?
3. Could someone explain to me more about poetic Japanese, old/middle Japanese, and formal Japanese?

Thank you in advance, 瀬人様 15:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

1. This would be a good place to ask more specific questions.
2. The epigraph to Wilde's "Lotus Leaves" is Odyssey, Book 4, lines 195-198 (trans. Lattimore: "I find nothing wrong with / crying for a mortal who's died and met his fate. /Indeed, this is the only prize at all for wretched mortals, / to cut one's hair and let tears fall from one's cheeks."). The epigraph to "The True Knowledge" is a fragment from Euripides' lost play Hypsipyle, which may be translated "And it necessarily holds that life is mown down, like a fruitful ear of wheat, and one man goes on being, while another does not."
3. See Old Japanese, Late Old Japanese. Wareh 16:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

1. I'm asking for someone who speaks these languages to make contact with me and converse with me in this language (talking about poetry and literature would be best).
2. Thank you very much ^^
3. Thank you :) But I'm looking also for the Japanese used afterwards, primarily at the Edo period. 瀬人様 16:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Wikiversity would be an excellent place to find this sort of help. There's a list of fluent French speakers eager to help new learners over there (at the French Department) already, and a few of us have studied some Old English and could perhaps help with that, as well. The Jade Knight 03:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ħ

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

How are the Ħs in words like Ħello and Saħħa pronounced? The article on it isn't much help without a decent understanding of language, which I don't have. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.142.87.10 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

You can listen to this sound file to hear it. —Angr 16:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

If you're referring to the Maltese sound, then it's a voiceless pharyngeal. AnonMoos 08:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Paint the town red

Latest comment: 17 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Where does this expression come from please? (I'm not interested in the record of that name). -- SGBailey 18:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

"Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, Revised Edition by Ivor H. Evans (Cassells, 1981) is not very helpful: "To have a gay, noisy time; to cause some disturbance in town by having a noisy and disorderly spree. A phrase of American origin." (p. 823). Then there is another expert's view: "This colorful term for a wild spree, especially one involving much drinking, probably originated on the frontier. In the nineteenth century the section of town where brothels and saloons were located was known as the 'red light district.' So a group of lusty cowhands out for a night 'on the town' might very well take it into their heads to make the whole town red." (Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988). Google also notes the town in England which is more famous for its Melton Mowbray pork pies as claiming the honour from an actual incident of the town being so painted by the Marquis of Waterford and his rowdy friends in 1837 [7]. In short, no one seems to be quite sure. Bielle 19:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks -- SGBailey 19:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

"The allusion is to the kind of unruly behaviour that results in much blood being spilt." See [[8]]. (JosephASpadaro 02:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC))Reply

July 9

Dual meaning

Latest comment: 17 years ago12 comments9 people in discussion

What is the technical name of the device where a word has another meaning apart from that wehich is obvious? Thanks in advsnce.

you may mean pun, double entendre or connotation. Cheers--K.C. Tang 01:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Or you may mean metaphor or allegory. --Anonymous, July 9, 2007, 02:52 (UTC).

Do you mean obvious in the context of use, or obvious per se? Also, is the ambiguity intentional, or accidental (like in the requirement that "Hard hats must be worn on this site at all times"[9])? Could you give a few examples of what you mean?  --Lambiam^Talk 06:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Am I being a bit slow here? What is the ambiguity in the Hard Hat sentence?Cyta 07:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It could be taken as forbidding hard hats to be worn anywhere else; there may be yet other readings. —Tamfang 08:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think it's something to do with the "Hard hats must be worn" part making the "at all times" unnecessary- X201 11:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I suppose hard hats must be worn (as in worn down/ not new)? I suspect double entendre is the right answer, although that is normally used when the alternative meaning is obscene. Cyta 11:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

This is the specific second meaning of "worn" I had in mind: damaged by wear or use; "a worn screw thread"; "worn elbows on a jacket". So the worker trying to enter the site with a brand-new hard hat is not admitted.  --Lambiam^Talk 15:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yet another reading could be that the site must not be left unattended - at all times, including nights, weekends and holidays, there must be someone on the site wearing a hard hat. How did we ever manage to make sense of such an ambiguous phrase? 84.239.133.38 11:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think it's called common sense and context. Most sentences can probably have dual meanings (or more) if you look hard enough, but somehow we all manage to communicate. Cyta 13:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Another reading is that you must wear a hat which is hard, as opposed to a hardhat. Bowlers are permissible; berets are not. --TotoBaggins 14:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Not to beat a dead horse, but another possible meaning is that if someone has a hard hat on the premises, they must wear it. This is something like the meaning of "Dogs must be kept on a leash on this site at all times", which isn't generally seen as a requirement to have a dog, but rather as a requirement to keep the dog on a leash if you have one. Mike Dillon 02:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Are you thinking of Idiom? For instance "Bull's eye" has nothing to do with the eye of a bull. Bunthorne 02:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

translation from spanish

Latest comment: 17 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

Can anybody please tell me what this means? "El Roi des Belges, modelo para el barco de vapor de El Corazón de las tinieblas, al breve mando de Conrad". It is a picture description that I need here. --Lamme Goedzak 07:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

"The King of the Belgians, model for the steamboat of The Heart of the darkness, under(?) the brief command of Conrad." No surprises there, I imagine. —Tamfang 08:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for your fast reply! This means that Conrad has never been on this ship but on a similar one? --Lamme Goedzak 09:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I would say it means the Roi des Belges was briefly under the command of Conrad, and the steamboat in Conrad's novel Heart of Darkness was based on the real-life Roi des Belges. —Angr 09:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

OK, then my description is correct. Thanks! --Lamme Goedzak 14:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Conrad was on the Roi des Belges, as far as I know (though I don't know anything about who was in command). Tesseran 16:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

lack/a lack? response/responses?

Latest comment: 17 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

should it be...

1. due to a lack of response
2. due to a lack of responses
3. due to lack of response
4. due to lack of responses

I would say "due to the lack of response", or possibly "due to a lack of response". DuncanHill 09:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Actually, I'd probably say "because of" instead of "due to", but that may just be my idiolect. DuncanHill 09:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

They're all grammatical and all valid for some meaning; the question is which one you want. You need to confront two issues: the choice of "the" vs. "a" vs. no article, and the choice between "response" and "responses". (They operate independently here.) The first is perhaps trickier, but for the second one, "lack of response" is a general thing, focusing on "the response" as an undivided whole; "lack of responses" focuses on the individual responses that did not arrive. It also implies (to some degree) that the actual number of responses is important. If you mean "no one seemed very excited about the idea", use "response"; if you mean "no one even sent back a letter", use "responses". Tesseran 17:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

And you can also say: "due to the lack of responses", which (to me) sounds slightly more idiomatic than "due to (a) lack of responses". If you have somehow mentioned earlier that the amount of response was underwhelming, then in a later reference "the" should be used. For example: "For question 3 we only received three responses, two of which were illegible. Due to the lack of responses, the decision was referred to a later stage."  --Lambiam^Talk 18:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Or "for lack of response(s)" —Tamfang 23:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

(Another good question for the English Language Reference Desk.) The Jade Knight 03:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Romantic poets

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I wanted to gain some knowledge about the comparisons between the poets and poems of-P.B.Shelley,William Wordsworth and John Keats.Please help me.I need this information desperately. Thank you.````

Have a look at our articles on Percy Shelley, Wordsworth and Keats and come back to us if you have any specific questions. By the way, this question would have been better asked on the humanities reference desk. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Elephant Onomatopoeia

Latest comment: 17 years ago10 comments8 people in discussion

Moved from the misc. desk. Capuchin 13:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

If a duck goes quack what sound does an elephant make? --58.168.222.252 12:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Elephants trumpet. DuncanHill 12:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't think we have an onomatopoeic word for an elephant's trumpet, are there any in other languages? This would be best on the language desk. Capuchin 12:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I am not aware of any onomatopoeic words for the elephant in German or Czech either. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 13:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

"Hoom-praa"? ---Sluzzelin talk 15:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'm very sad that I don't seem to be able to open that document :( Capuchin 12:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

If they step on a pile of grapes, they may make a little whine.Gzuckier 15:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think "trumpet" is an onomatopea. It does sound like the sound a trumpet makes. – b_jonas 13:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'd imagine languages in countries where elephants are found have a sound for elephants, like we have sounds for ducks of cows. EditorInTheRye 14:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Hindi language and ethnic groups

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Does the Hindi language form an ethnic group? Heegoop, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Defining ethnicity is very tricky, particularly in northern India, where Hindi is mainly spoken, because of the existence, linguistically, of both a dialect continuum linking dialects very close to standard Hindi around Delhi with dialects close to other related languages, such as Bhojpuri, and because of Hindi's status as a lingua franca throughout northern India. In addition to these linguistic complications, Hindi speakers are divided along lines of caste, religion, and regional origin. Therefore, I don't think that the Hindi language alone can be seen as an ethnic marker, at least in northern India. Because ethnicity is relative, an argument might be made that Hindi is a kind of ethnic marker in southern India, because, there, native use of Hindi marks a speaker as a northern Indian, or ethnic outsider. Outside of India, the status of Hindi as an ethnic marker is somewhat murky and would depend on whether there are distinct communities of Indians organized along linguistic lines (in which case Hindi would be an ethnic marker), or whether hyphenated Indians form a single ethnic group regardless of their native language—e.g., perhaps, "Indo-Canadians"—(in which case Hindi would not be an ethnic marker). This almost certainly varies from place to place. But, in general, I do not think that Hindi speakers represent an ethnic group with a strong shared identity. Marco polo 15:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

What ethnic groups in India speak Hindi? Heegoop, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that most Indians cannot be assigned to any clearly defined ethnic group. The exceptions would be the members of the so-called "scheduled tribes", or Adivasi peoples, which do form distinct ethnic groups. However, Adivasi peoples generally do not speak Hindi, except as a second language. The Indian government does not recognize the existence of ethnic groups in India apart from these scheduled tribes. While there are significant cultural differences among regions of India, there are few clear dividing lines between regions. Instead, there are subtle gradations. Often cultural differences between castes are more important than those between members of the same caste in neighboring regions. In a sense, non-tribal Indians who are not members of an alien ethnic minority (such as the Tibetans), whether they speak Hindi or some other language, form a single ethnic group like the Han Chinese of China, who also have wide regional cultural and linguistic variation. So, unfortunately, it is really impossible to answer your question. Marco polo 15:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Who speaks Hindi? (general question) Heegoop, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Neighboring as a Gerund

Latest comment: 17 years ago9 comments7 people in discussion

I'm currently reviewing a paper for grammar, and have come across extensive use of "neighboring" as a gerund. For example, "much neighboring goes on among them." I would be inclined to dismiss this as wrong (the writer is not a native English speaker), if not for that it is actually quoted from other sources as well, especially William Dobriner. The topic deals with social aspects of suburban life. My question is, would that really be considered proper use, or would she be better served by using other constructs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paranand (talk • contribs)

To me, that is not an example of a gerund. A gerund is a verb used as a noun, for example "the bringing up of the child". In your example, I think "neighboring" is being used as the present participle of the verb "to neighbor". The more relevant question is, is there really a verb to neighbor? I don't think there is. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Since "neighboring" is the subject of the verb goes on, it is certainly a gerund and not a participle. Just as certainly, it is unidiomatic to the point of being meaningless & should be rewritten for clarity. Wareh 15:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It actually is being used both as a gerund and as an adjective, but based on the premise that there are two uses of the verb "to neighbor." This does exist as a verb, as in "Germany neighbors France," but here is being used almost in the sense of being a neighbor. For example, she writes "the high degree of neighboring," meaning a great deal of activities among neighbors. Could this be an acceptable use of the word? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paranand (talk • contribs)

In the quotation you provided, it is not being used as an adjective. She should write, "As neighbors, they are involved in many interactions," or some such. "The high degree of neighboring" is not an improvement; nothing you say suggests it is correct for the intended meaning. Wareh 16:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree with Wareh that in the quoted passage, "neighboring" is a gerund. I also agree that this gerund is nonstandard English and without a clear meaning. I'm not sure of the intended meaning, but perhaps a better way to state it would be "They engage in much neighborly behavior" or, better still, "They have a strong relationship as neighbors". Marco polo 16:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'm not familiar with that usage of the word, but it does find some hits: [10], [11], [12], [13]. It seems to be a neologism, and it may also be a technical term in sociology. In any case, "much neighboring goes on among them" is an awkward construction. You could preserve the word "neighboring" and reword to "they are strongly engaged in neighboring," or to use a different phrase, "they frequently participate in neighborly activities." --Reuben 16:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

OED gives us 'Neighbouring | neighboring':

2. Chiefly Brit. regional. The activity of visiting one's neighbours, neighbourly association; spec. (Sc. and Irish English (north.)) cooperation in farm work.

3. Relations between neighbours in a community; esp. (chiefly Sociol.) when those relations are based on (mutual) help and support.

[14] Ithink the 'chiefly Sociol.' is what you're looking at. — Gareth Hughes 17:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Whether or not you can point to a supreme authority to prove that it is unidiomatic English, it's still an awkward sentence. I've reworded a lot of awkward sentences, and almost every one of them was grammatically valid -- a necessary but not sufficient condition for inclusion in writing. Tesseran 17:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

That reminds me of the question: What do you call someone whose idiom differs from your idiom? It looks like 'neighbouring', used in this way, is a piece of sociological jargon, which makes it idiomatic for sociologists. As a non-sociologist, I think it's ugly and unnecessary, but OED cites a handful of clever-looking sociologists using it. — Gareth Hughes 17:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

The issue is not the gerund but the use of to neighbor as a verb. No verb, no gerund. If you accept the verb, then you get the gerund thrown in for free. It is a standard dictionary meaning: "to associate with or as if with one's neighbors; be neighborly or friendly (often fol. by with)".[15]  --Lambiam^Talk 18:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

toward vs towards

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

which is correct?

Both are correct — they are valid English words. The difference between them was given here recently — Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 June 25#Toward vs towards. — Gareth Hughes 16:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

UniPers transliteration

Latest comment: 17 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Can anyone give me the UniPers transliteration of دانشگاه, 'university'? Would 'dânšagâh' be far off? — Gareth Hughes 17:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Apparently, you can leave off the final h it's "dâneshgâ". —Angr 20:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

That's not the only difference.  --Lambiam^Talk 20:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ah, thank you. I wasn't aware that Wiktionary had got that good! — Gareth Hughes 20:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I was actually only expecting to find the Persian word and its transliteration at wikt:university; I was quite surprised to see it was even a blue link! —Angr 20:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

STATUS POST

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Status post or status-post ?

I have no idea what you're talking about, but my natural loathing of unnecessary hyphens says, "status post". —Angr 20:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

In medical jargon, as in "patient is status post alimentation" (= has eaten), no hyphen is customary. But while I'm up, I may as well point out that this is a barbarism, as status is a noun used here as a predicate adjective; (in) statu post would be better Latin. —Tamfang 23:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

A singular plural question

Latest comment: 17 years ago9 comments7 people in discussion

In an article, it refers to "...portraits of both Kings Charles..." Is this correct? Clarityfiend 20:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It seems like a good, concise way of saying "...portraits of both King Charles I and King Charles II. Sort of like referring to Emily, Anne, and Charlotte as "the Misses Brontë". —Angr 20:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It just sounds so goofy to me (goofé for the French among us). Clarityfiend 22:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

In everyday informal usage, phrases can inflect like single words (as seen in the movie title Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure), and "Both King Charleses" is what people would say. In formal writing I'd avoid the expression altogether. "Both Kings Charles" can't be right. --Anonymous, July 9, 2007, 22:40 (UTC).

Maybe the acceptability depends on where you're from. Here we find: "both Queens Elizabeth" – not the Queens Elizabeth you may think, but Elizabeth Woodville and Elizabeth of York). I'm not sure I'd say "both Kings Charles" (although I would say, e.g, "they are the numbers one in their respective fields"), but I'm quite sure I'd never say "both King Charleses".  --Lambiam^Talk 00:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Why can't it be right? It's short for "both Kings who were named Charles". —Tamfang 23:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It sounds right to me - tho' I suspect it may be a little old-fashioned. DuncanHill 00:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Lambiam, "the numbers one in their respective fields" sounds hypercorrect to me. I take the expression "number one" to be a compound noun. It's not the number-s that there are more than one of, but the number one-s. I'd pluralise it as "number ones". -- JackofOz 02:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

About the Kings Charles - I'd say it's correct in speech, but when written, the word "Kings" should be in lower case. No different from writing "Both presidents Bush were <whatever>". -- JackofOz 02:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree that it's no different: that's equally wrong, in my opinion. --Anon, July 10, 03:23 (UTC).

You might try this question over at the English Language Reference Desk and see what response you get there. The Jade Knight 03:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Narrative grammars

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I'm interested in generating simple stories or plots by using something like a narrative grammar, preferably embodied in some software. Does anyone know where I can find out implementations of this kind of thing please?

Secondly, I've been watching several Laurel and Hardy short films. I note that they often have common narrative elements, for example escalation, or repetition. Has anyone ever studied them from a narrative grammar point of view please? Thanks 80.2.207.15 21:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

July 10

Lead Factory Worker

Latest comment: 17 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Is a person who works in a lead factory called a leader, and if so how would you pronounce it?

Why, pronounce it as in leady, of course.--K.C. Tang 03:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't think that word is used, but it would be pronounced [ˈlɛd.ɚ] or [ˈlɛd.ə] if it were used. Mike Dillon 03:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Pronunciation would naturally depend on the dialect of the speaker. Generally, lead workers are not called "leaders". If they were called "leaders", it would likely be pronounced much like "ledders" (another non-word). The Jade Knight 03:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

There is a verb to lead (pronounced [lɛd]), with meanings: (1) to cover with lead, (2) to insert leads between [the text lines], or (3) to fix [glass] with lead cames. Meaning (2) gives rise to the noun leading ([ˈlɛdɪŋ]). A noun leader, in the meaning of someone whose occupation or main activity is to perform one of these activities, would be a regular word formation in English. Hoever, it appears not to be in common use, and is not recorded in several dictionaries. I would not be surprised, though, if it is found in the OED.  --Lambiam^Talk 11:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Dead Sea

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Why is the Dead Sea called the Dead Sea? Is there something "deadly" about salinity? Or is it because Sodom and Gomorrah had seaside property, and were righteously smoten by the hand of the LORD? Obviously, doing a good job of smiting requires dealing a heavy hand of Death. Is there some linguamythic connection between salt and death? Thanks in advance. 208.114.153.254 04:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

According to Dead Sea#Flora and fauna, "the sea is called 'dead' because its high salinity means no fish or macroscopic aquatic organisms can live in it". (I'm about to reword that, though, since it sounds like fish aren't macroscopic aquatic organisms.) —Angr 05:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

kthx. 208.114.153.254 05:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

This, That, These, Those.

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Dear Sir/Madam,

I was reading [16] and was wondering concerning the following example, that is often used but usually with a different object:

Who owns that house? (distant)
Is this John's house? (near)

Isn't this open to individual interpretation ? For example, a person could find that a house is distant while another would find that it isn't. --Matt714 06:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It is, yes, but I think in practice it'd be quite clear. If you're about to enter John's house, for example, you'd always say "this". If you're right up next to it, but are walking past it, you could probably use either "this" or "that", it doesn't much matter. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Can the word "being" may be dropped from a title of a picture

Latest comment: 17 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

I came across a picture with a title: "The Mars Climate Orbiter is prepared for its mission. ..." The picture really shows that the Orbiter is under preparation. So I feel that the title should have been: The Mars Climate Orbiter is being prepared for its mission. ...Is there a convention that the word "being" can be dropped from a title? Can anyone point me a web-page where I can learn about the grammar of titles?

Thank you very much. 196.12.53.9 06:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Vineet ChaitanyaReply

The caption is fine in English without the word 'being'. With the word 'being' included, it reads more like a part of a story. Without the 'being', it refers directly to the picture, i.e. this is what the picture shows. It's hard to explain, as you can tell! --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Actually, I'd tend to make the caption "The [object] being prepared for its mission", dropping the verb "is" altogether. Less wordy. +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think the problem with both alternatives is that they are in the passive voice, which should be avoided as far as possible. If the picture shows technicians working on the orbiter, for example, I would make the caption "Technicians prepare [or preparing] the Orbiter for its mission". --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Passive voice is an important part of English (and other languages!). Sometimes it is overused, but here it is quite clear: using the passive voice makes the orbiter the topic of the sentence. The question at hand, though, is not about voice but about aspect: specifically the progressive aspect. For example (with verb phrase in bold):

• 'The Mars Climate Orbiter is [infl. form of 'be'] prepared [past participle] for its mission'
  • Passive voice → inflected form of 'be' + past participle
• 'The Mars Climate Orbiter is [infl. form of 'be'] being [present participle of 'be'] prepared [past participle] for its mission'
  • Passive voice with progressive aspect → inflected form of 'be' + 'being' + past participle

In English, the progressive aspect adds immediacy to the sentence — it's happening right now. Its use is quite common in speech (compare 'I play football' with 'I am playing football'), but is not as necessary in headings and captions because the body text or picture, respectively, fill out the details. — Gareth Hughes 10:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

'Oftentimes'

Latest comment: 17 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion

Is this word only an Americanism, in a sentence such as "Oftentimes, I would go jogging in the park"? I've never heard spoken it in British English, where we would simply use 'often'. But I frequently hear 'oftentimes' being used by Americans. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I too have never heard it used in British English, tho' Chambers Dictionary (1983 ed.) does list it without comment. DuncanHill 11:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Chambers can be a bit old fashioned, so it somewhat explains the opening remark of the entry in OED: 'Now chiefly N. Amer.; otherwise arch. or literary'. — Gareth Hughes 11:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

That's a bit harsh on Chambers - it's always been my favourite dictionary, and with its famous humorous definitions it's also one of the least conventional. The previous poster does point out that he was quoting from the 1983 edition, so the word may have been less archaic then than it was in 2004, when the OED definition you cite was drafted. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I can't think of having heard it in the US, either. Maybe among old people… The Jade Knight 11:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I quite like Chambers too, but it is fond of words so archaic that you could never get away with it. The OED definition is 2004, but I don't know how long that definition has been up. Unfortunately, it is difficult to back up the North American claim from OED's quotations. I, a Brit, have used the word before, but this maybe because I'm archaic with literary pretensions. — Gareth Hughes 12:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I've often heard it from Americans, and it always makes me cringe. I've never thought of it as "archaic" and "literary", though; I think of it a solecism and it requires great self-control on my part to refrain from slapping the person who said it. (Yes, I'm an anti-prescriptivist, can't you tell?) —Angr 14:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Al Jamia al Masjid

Latest comment: 17 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

What does this mean? For reference, it was written on the front of a Mosque near where I grew up in the US. Sorry if I didn't spell it right, but that is what I remember it as.

Thanks, Czmtzc 16:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

It's a public mosque. مسجد (masjid) is the usual Arabic word used for a mosque, whereas جامع (jāmi`) can also refer to a mosque it usually represents a larger, more collective building. The two words are put together, usually as مسجد جامع (masjid jāmi`) for a main, central mosque used for جمعة (jum`ah), Friday prayer. — Gareth Hughes 16:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

OK great. That would explain why they built a much larger building just down the street a couple of years ago. Czmtzc 16:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I've seen the order مسجد جامع (masjid jāmi`) a fair bit, but, to get closer to your original statement, جامعة المسجد (jāmi`at al-masjid) would mean 'the congregation/community of the mosque'. — Gareth Hughes 17:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

OK, looking at the arabic script you provided, it looks like the words are reading right to left, correct? So what would it mean if it was al Jamia above al Masjid? In other words does Arabic read right to left / bottom to top?

Looking for original Russian lyrics of Yugoslavia song by Lena Katina (Tatu)

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Hello,

I hope this doesn't belong in "entertainment". Lena Katina (from Tatu) made a song (in Russian) about Yugoslavia. You can listen to it here: [17] I am looking for the original Russian lyrics (in the Cyrillic alphabet). That would be an interesting way to test my knowledge of the Cyrillic alpabet. But since my Russian is really really bad, I can't find my way (on my own) on the internet in Russian. So can anyone help me? Thank you very very much,Evilbu 17:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

I just posted a link to the lyrics, but I realized soon after that it is on some kind of extreme right-wing site, so I removed the link. If you want to google for the words try Лена Катина Югославия Над вечерним and you will probably find them. --Cam 18:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply