Catholic counter-reformation
I would suggest add the following: catholic counterreformation, and (drums) Warsaw confederation (agreement about religious tolerance, first and probably only one up to modern times not imposed by kings or government, by agreed by people alone).
and of course impact of reformation on national languages - standarisation of German came as one example, first books in national language in Poland, etc, etc [[szopen]]
Early sixteenth century key revolutionary period in European history needs expansion
The early sixteenth century was a revolutionary stage in which old elite groups were challenged or eliminated, namely the clergy. As Reformation pushed the clergy out of its dominant position while the French Revolution would later herald the twilight to the aristocracy’s traditional primacy. In both times new groups emerged, partly at least to fill the vacuum in a process fundamental to cultural regeneration and cultural renewal.
Although the cultural contexts of the two eras set these two great revolutions apart, ideologies can vary in their content, dependent on the local cultural values. Some might stress political values like justice as in the French Revolution, and some may stress immediate or long range economic values as in the Russian Revolution.
In short, this was a key revolutionary period in European history not adequately addressed by this short article. I hope that my recent contributions spur other contributors to fill in the gaps and make this an article worthy of the historical significance of the topic.
Reformation was religiously motivated
- The Reformation was religiously motivated (not discounting economic and nationalistic justifications). To denigrate religion as the chief motive, is to insist that those who carried out the Reformation did not understand their own cause. The article should not characterize the stimulus of the Reformation in terms of materialism or class-struggle, except where the proponents of the Reformation expressed these as bases for their own actions. Otherwise, the article may satisfy Marxists and anarchists, but in my opinion it is simply not the truth about this movement, as understood by those who promoted or defended it, or by those since who have been most sympathetic with it. Mkmcconn
- Mkmcconn: The article goes into the theological debate, particullary the complex relationship between humanism and Protestantism. In that sense, it makes reference to the revival of Augustinian theology, namely salvation by faith alone. However, this is a historical page, not one simply pertaining to theology or philosophy. Thus, it not only goes through the intellectual and religious developments of the era, but characterizes the context in which these ideas caught on. If the ideas of the Protestant reformers were derived from Augustus and carried out to a logical consistency one must ask why did these ideas all of a sudden catch on at this time.
- Just because some readers aren’t familiar with the economic and political sides of the Reformation doesn’t mean that these factors shouldn’t be presented. Rather, it accentuates the necessity of presenting them.
- I'm familiar with Marxist theory, even Marxist theory applied to this era, and I must say that just because this article doesn't refute Marxism doesn't mean that this article is backing it up. It simply doens't go into sufficient detail do either. And that's fine for an NPOV encyclopedia article.
- If you intuitively sense “Marxism” because economic factors and social class are mentioned in a historical article (My God, what could they be doing in an article on perhaps the most complicated period in European history?), then I challenge you to suggest in why the Reformation caught on where it did and why did it fragment into radical branches without looking at the broader historical trends of the sixteenth century. Why and how did Lutheranism win the support of the territorial princes in Northern Germany?
- I must also correct a very common misconception. Introducing economic and political factors does not imply that the Protestant reformers didn’t take their ideas seriously. They most certainly did and the article makes that clear. One, though, has to look at the environment in which these theologians came to their ideas and found their ideas easy to disseminate. 172
- You added a lot of material. There are a few points that might need some corrections or clarifications (I lost your point here and there); but, I did not react to your insertions the way that I reacted to your explanation of what you are doing. It's your comments that I reacted to, not your additions - but, I'll admit that since you chose to be so open about what you are trying to illustrate by your edits, I'm going to look closer at what you have added in that light ;-) Mkmcconn 01:51 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)
Huh?
- First, I denied trying to insert a Marxist slant into the article in the above comments. Why is that making you more suspicious?
- Second, the comment I had made earlier on this page was not a uniquely Marxist interpretation. In fact, it’s making a distinction between the political/economic French Revolution and the religious revolution of the Protestant Reformation. That comment said nothing more than the Protestant Reformation was a period of historical upheaval.
Mkmcconn,
I was just trying to entice people into work on an article pertaining to a key era in history.
informing and delghtful to read
qt, well i thought it was great!!!! very informing and delghtful to read. qt
Text is used twice in the article...
- The great rise of the burgers, the desire to run their new businesses free of institutional barriers or outmoded cultural practices contributed to the appeal of individualism. To many, papal institutions were rigid, especially regarding their views on just price and usury. In the North burgers and monarchs were united in their frustration against for not paying any taxes to the nation, but collecting taxes from subjects and sending the revenues disproportionately to Italy
Booyabazooka 17:56, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Overlap/inconsistency with Protestantism article
It would be valuable if s/o could look to rationalise this with the [disputed] Protestantism article and make the links between the two articles clear. Paul foord 07:39, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
some observations
You might take note of the fact that in the 16thC there was no idea of "The Reformation" and "Protestants" did not begin with that name or greatly like it when they got it--nor did Lutherans and Calvinists like being called Lutherans and Calvinists. The idea was to claim true Catholicity and denounce innovation or "newfangledness." Much of the period has to do with multiple competing stories about national and ecclesial origins and destinies. This should not be obscured by collapsing it into a "period" or "event" or "movement" with a single teleological narrrative.
There also needs to be some attention to recent historiographical paradigm shifts such that the "Counter-Reformation" is discarded as a term in favor of "Catholic Reformation" and England is understood to have been reformed coercively by an elite minority embedded in and/or backed by the state that imposed a "reformation from above"--thus denying older views of the English reformation as a populist affair driven by rampant anticlericalism.
It would be wise to subdivide or better yet "outsource" this entry to significant nations, regions and cities.
Need Revision
I believe the huge amount of material added by User:172 in the early development of this article obscures its essence. He argues that the overall socio-political environment in Europe played a significant role. True, as did the Renaissance, but the title of the article is "Protestant Reformation", not "The Socio-Political developments in early 16th century Europe". Jim Ellis 19:00, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
- I would agree; this article, like Jesus, needs a massive rewrite...I think we should just have a "do over". There's just too much info that's (relatively) inconsequential. Yes, the socio-economic factors deserve mention, but it detracts from the main thrust of the article. KHM03 23:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
- There is no mention of the French Revolution, nor should there be--that happened at the end of the 18th century. Dan Knauss
- My mistake. Thanks Dan-- I deleted the phrase. My overall feeling that this article should be re-written and made more concise and focused still stands. Jim Ellis 11:44, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
- This article does need replacement; it really ought to have a general outline of what was included in the Ref., and then it ought to be broken down by region (Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, etc.). The socio-economic arguments can still be included, but they really ought to be subordinated to the theological roots of Luther's action. Perhaps if we rewrite it as a skeleton and then add to it to fix it. Rekleov
- My mistake. Thanks Dan-- I deleted the phrase. My overall feeling that this article should be re-written and made more concise and focused still stands. Jim Ellis 11:44, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
- There is no mention of the French Revolution, nor should there be--that happened at the end of the 18th century. Dan Knauss
There is a new page for this topic which could use expansion by someone with expertise in that area. KHM03 11:41, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Pro / Anti
A link is listed under external links entitled something like "Why Catholicism makes Protestantism Work". That's fine. An anonymous user placed that link under the label "Pro-Roman Catholic"; the assumption there is that the other links are anti-RC. This is not only an NPOV violation of wikipedia policy, it is also incorrect. Protestant does not necessarily mean anti-RC, not in 2005. I removed the label. KHM03 00:48, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Frankly, that link simply shouldn't be in this article. It may fit under Protestantism, but not under Protestant Reformation. This is an historical piece, not polemical --- while the linked article is. I won't blast it away from this page, but it simply shouldn't be here. --Rekleov 13:12, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That sounds reasonable...why don't you move it? KHM03 13:18, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Found it and moved it. --Rekleov 13:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- removing the link is fine, but I think Protestant still implies anti-RC, even in 2005. Most protestants still strongly disagree a number of Catholic doctrines and practices, such as the role of the papacy, transubstantiation of the Eucharist/Communion, indulgences, role of saints, etc. If they didn't, wouldn't they rejoin the Catholic Church? Why else would they remain separate? Wesley 15:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)