áHere is some text I moved from the one-time pad page to the talk section for now until someone wants to integrate it.
By the time the effort ended in the 1970s(?), the United States had fully or partially decrypted several thousand of the hundreds of thousands of Soviet messages from the U.S. to Moscow during and just after World War II. Some of those messages provided evidence of the identity of members of the "Atom Spy" ring which operated in WWII. You can find a history of this project, code named Venona, at the NSA web site. Chadloder
Alger Hiss and his alleged codename
He's referenced as being either "ALES" or as "GISS"- I assume only one of these would be accurate. Good luck!
-- one part of article says Alger Hiss WAS IDENTIFIED. another part says it's UNCERTAIN. which? 64.165.203.195 08:16, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I don't know, but one possibility tbat springs to mind is that Alger Hiss was identified as an agent, but it's uncertain exactly whether "ALES" was his codename; maybe? Hmm...However, the "Alger Hiss" article suggests that not everyone agrees he was certainly a spy, so maybe it does indeed need to be altered for NPOV. — Matt Crypto 00:59, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In re: GISS. Russian has no 'H'. It is usually transliterated to Cyrillic 'G'. Thus HISS in Latin letters would be transliterated to GISS (or GIS) in Cyrillic.
Further, both HISS and ALES could be one person. It's not either/or.
Prof Haynes has made the comment that it is uncertain who HISS was in the one decrypt where he is mentioned. It could be Alger Hiss's brother Donald.
From some recent exchanges in H-DIPLO, the identification of ALES as Hiss was apparently made by Robert Lamphere, the FBI agent assigned as liaison to the VENONA project. The reason for the identification isn't clear. Some of the correspondents in H-DIPLO firmly believe that ALES is Alger Hiss, and some firmly believe it isn't.
Only one decrypt mentions HISS, and only one mentions ALES.
As for me, I am resolved to stay out of Hissing matches.
User: John K. Taber, jktaber à charter point net.
all caps
Why is VENONA in all caps? Is it an acronym? Gamaliel 03:11, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Block deletion of Australian material
I have reverted a block deletion of the entire Australian section, and made some comments on the reasons why at Lacrimosus' talk page. Securiger 12:58, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Duplicate one-time pads
The way that I heard the duplicate one-time pads explained was that one of the printers in Moscow "didn't get the concept" and reused a bunch of printing plates when printing one-time pads. This presumably because under stress of war and need to meet production schedules. I have no references for this. linas 18:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Coe, Adler & Strong
Can someone who knows how download the image from this site Coe, Adler & Strong. It related to Venona, Frank Coe, Solomon Adler and Anna Louise Strong, all confirmed Soviet spies in the Venona project. Thanks. Nobs01 03:58, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Does right clicking the image in your web browser and selecting the "Save Picture/Image" option work? — Matt Crypto 14:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Yah, but I don't know how to upload it or check for copyright permisssion, etc. Thx.Nobs01 14:27, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
List of Americans in Venona Papers
Because it's gotten a little unwieldy, I propose we spin this out to List of Americans in Venona Papers. Any objections? — Matt Crypto 23:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
- Not at all. Good idea. nobs 00:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- Probably 5% or less of the people here were mentioned in Venona. What has happened is people read about things which happened in Venona, and speculated that these people were involved. The idea that it is an encyclopediac fact that all of the people listed here were Soviet spies is absurd. I am removing this list. Ruy Lopez 17:51, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- Complete removal of the list is wholly inappropriate; if you have names which you think are listed in error, by all means lets look into them, but to simply remove the entire list seems to me to be more motivated by ideology than research. Many of these people are actually named (i.e. names spelled out, not cover-names) in Venona messages (flipping through a few messages, I see Allen Wardwell, Attwood, F. W. Russell, Magdorf (sic), Kramer, Perlo, Flato, Glasser, Fitzgerald - and that's in only 10 messages or so) - although I should caution that some of these are not named as sources, but as e.g. contacts, bosses of sources, etc. Others are given in reputable works on the Venona traffic (e.g. West's book); e.g. the first name on the list, John Abt, is included in the Glossary of Soviet Covernames which is included in West's book as an appendix (alas, the list is organized alphabetically by cover-name, so I can't look them all up quickly); Abt was AMT. Noel (talk) 19:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- "349 U.S. citizens, noncitizen immigrants, and permanent residents of the United States who had covert relationships with Soviet intelligence were confirmed in the Venona traffic." So it is being cited as fact in an encyclopedia article that Harry Magdoff, IF Stone, Harry Dexter White and so forth are Soviet spies. This is ridiculous. Your solution is that with little or no evidence, Nobs can accuse whoever he wants of being a spy, and this has to stay, unless I present evidence dis-proving them of being one (I'm not sure how that works), where we'll then "look into" it. I don't think so. As far as Nobs's "research" as you term it - Google has four hits for "magdoff and kant and venona". One hit is Wikipedia. One is a white supremacist site. One is a red-under-every-bed John Birch type site similar to Nobs. This nonsense clearly does not belong here. Ruy Lopez 19:43, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- And of course Jnc is completely correct, to accuse Harry Magdoff, IF Stone and Harry Dexter White of being Soviet spies is "research" while saying it's nonsense is "motivated by ideology". Clearly Nobs nor Jnc are motivated by ideology, obviously. Ruy Lopez 19:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- First, as I have noted elsewhere, your use of the term "spies" is loose and imprecise; the NKVD carefully distinguished between "agents" (someone who had a formal relationship with the NKVD, sometimes involving money), and "sources", a term which covered a wide range of people, some of whom might just be gossips, not witting helpers.
- Second, I never used the word "research" in connection with Nobs (whom I never mentioned; I don't need to rely on his work); I used it in connection with you. And I used the word "research" in a generic sense; i.e. looking for data - something your reference to Google indicates you also are doing.
- Third, I also didn't say this has to stay, unless [you] present evidence dis-proving them of being one. What I said was if you have names which you think are listed in error, by all means lets look into them, by which I meant "let's see what evidence there is that they were described in Venona traffic", i.e. I was not asking you to "prove a negative". But simply removing the whole list, when many of them are people whose names are amply documented in numerous secondary sources as having been sources of information to the Soviet intelligence system, is just completely unreasonable.
- Yes, we could go through secondary sources about Venona messages (such as Nigel West, Venona: The Greatest Secret of the Cold War (HarperCollins, London, 1999)) and provide a footnoted reference to them for every last name in the list. However, I'm more interested in working on adding content to articles we either don't have, or are woefully short (e.g. RED (cipher), which I've yet to get back to) than in such essentially pointless work - which, to judge from your comments at Talk:Harry Magdoff, wouldn't satisfy you anyway. Noel (talk) 21:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, if anyone does want to undertake that project, I just ran across Cover Name, Cryptonym, CPUSA Party Name, Pseudonym, and Real Name Index - A Research Historian's Working Reference, which is a searchable file that one can use to cross-reference the names from the list with cover-names, which one can then look in the appendixes of West (the index in that book only lists references in the main text, not in the appendixes). Noel (talk) 22:06, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- Excellent resource, and from here John Earl Haynes you can access the Gorsky Memo too. Between those two resources, you have pretty much the entire list (link is available on the main page). Also, that Haynes list is updated frequently, and there are changes on that list from the Appendix's in Haynes and Klehr's 1999 Venona book, meaning additional identifications have been made since publication. nobs 22:18, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Note to — Matt Crypto, in light of the present arguement, I temporarily rescind my earlier statement and am in agreement with Noel until these matters are resolved. Thank you. nobs 20:06, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I've been lurking during this dispute thinking about this issue, and I have to finally say I'm not convinced about this list. Lots of people were mentioned in Venona, and to single these particular people out implies or just outright says to the reader something about these people. If they are just mentioned in Venona, why single them out to list here? If you are saying all these people are operatives, I don't think the facts support that. Gamaliel 18:47, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
- The list as it exists, is far from complete. 179 have been confirm to have covert contatcs with Soviet espionage agents. There are about 134 on the list as it stands. This list has essentially every identified employee of the United States Govenrnment who had covert contact with Soviet intelligence operatives. The list has some names of civilian employees of government defense contrators, but is not complete there. It contains names of prominent journalists, however that may be incomplete. A few ordinary civilians outside government, outside defence contractors, and outside media are also named, mostly in connection with atomic espionage ring. There are a few names that occur in Venona traffic who were not engaged in espionage activity, Stephen Attwood, for example. His name does not appear. Any names that do appear, there is ample evidence, sources, and citations available, beginning with source material derived from researchers empowered by statue law to render findings. nobs 19:04, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
- Note on recent additions: I would have preferred to check out Haynes and Klehr's citation on a case by case basis as was previously being done, to check thier sourcing and look for other corroborating materials, however due to recent vandalism to the main article page all additional names from Haynes and Klehr's VENONA; Decoding Soviet Espionage in America, Yale University Press, 1999, Appendix A, YUP Web site information on the book with the exception of three, has been included. nobs 21:22, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
- Let's take IF Stone as an example. Ruy Lopez disagrees with his presence on the list, the Stone article states flat out that he was not an operative. So why is he on the list? Gamaliel 19:09, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
- The Oleg Kalugin citation in the text of the I.F. Stone article is the corroboration necessary. No question he was mentioned in the Venona project materials, and also appears in the FBI's Venona file. All properly sourced. nobs 20:54, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
- So he was mentioned, so what? So were perhaps thousands of people. What is the point of having a list of people mentioned when we can just link to the complete one on the internet? Gamaliel 20:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
- This is a list of persons who had covert relationships with Soviet intelligence, not just a wholesale list of all names mentioned. There were "unwitting" agents, persons who information was gathered from by a person close to them, without their knowledge, Stephen S. Attwood and Walter Lippmann for example; they are not "spies". And a list here links to a biographical page. Many of these people had very interesting lives, and there espionage activities are part of it. It is a unique learning tool, not just for historical relevence by how a large and successful espionage organization operates. Personally, I would prefer biographical sketches that include their espionage activity, not just the crap drawn from counterespionage files, because counterespionage is really an entirely different field from espionage. But if people still wish to argue that the world is flat, in spite of the all evidence, then so be it. nobs 21:22, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think raising some perfectly legitimate questions about the content of this article deserves the kind of rude response as in your last sentence. Gamaliel 06:42, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
- My apologies. I was metaphorically speaking (and the comment was not directed toward yourself, as you have definetely acted in good faith). There is a problem, however, in that objections have not been stated (by others) in a coherent manner. There is only one objection, as best I can determine, and that is the sourcing for the list. I hope this has been resolved with the footnotes placed in last night. I would be delighted to work with any serious sceptics, and will infact assist in providing some of the best critical rebuttal material available (as you can see I did on the Talk:Harry_Dexter_White#Stuff_moved_from_talk_pages for User:John Kenney when he was called in to examine the resource methods and data). Again, my apologies and I wish to give you heartfelt thanks for your interest in this article. nobs 18:32, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
- The problem is you list dozens of Americans as being mentioned in Venona and as being spies. Except they are not listed in Venona - ALES is listed in Venona, and thus Alger Hiss becomes a Soviet spy mentioned in Venona only if it is a fact that ALES is Hiss. Yes, some suspect ALES is Hiss, but that does not make a fact that it is so. Yet you list all of these people as confirmed Soviet spies, whereas doubt exists for many of them. And not just the ones with the asteriks - I mean Earl Browder, Rose Browder, William Browder, Eugene Dennis, Alger Hiss, Donald Hiss, Harry Magdoff, Julius Rosenberg, Ethel Rosenberg, IF Stone, and Harry Dexter White. I'm sure I and others would have a problem with the lesser known names if we studied it more. Not that you do - it's fairly clear you have no idea who Harry Magdoff is or IF Stone was, you are just throwing up the names of hundreds of people and saying it is a fact they were Soviet spies. Ruy Lopez 22:00, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
- As the section in question states,
- "349 U.S. citizens, noncitizen immigrants, and permanent residents of the United States who had covert relationships with Soviet intelligence were confirmed in the Venona traffic. Of these 171 are identified by true names..." (source Haynes and Klehr, Venona, Appendix A, Source Venona: Americans and U.S. Residents Who Had Covert Relationships with Soviet Intelligence Agencies, pgs. 339-370).
- Haynes and Klehr cite Venona, i.e., the Archives of the National Security Agency (custodian of documents for the Army Signals Intelligence Agency) as the source for Appendix A. Robert L. Benson of the NSA Archives Cryptological Museum uses this language'
- "the UN conference (attended by KGB agent Harry Dexter White)." [1]
- The Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy, authorized by statue to make an investigation into the use of secrecy in government published this finding in its final report,
- "The complicity of Alger Hiss of the State Department seems settled. As does that of Harry Dexter White of the Treasury Department." (Moynihan Commssion on Government Secrecy, Appendix A, 7. The Cold War).
- Now, we can go over all 171 names in Haynes & Klehr's Appendix A, case by case, if you so choose. But it appears (1) the question regarding "original research" will not hold up, and (2) the publications of the NSA's Archives & the final report of the Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy is what is being questioned. Can we agree upon that? nobs 02:52, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- As the section in question states,
Full qualification of Venona project#List of Americans in Venona Papers is exstracted from Haynes and Klehr VENONA; Decoding Soviet Espionage in America, (Yale University Press 1999) and available here Talk:Conspiracy_allegations_about_Harry_Magdoff#Cberlet.27s_original_research. nobs 19:40, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Maybe a bit too much View?
The tacit decision to keep the translated messages secret carried a political and social price for the country. Debates over the extent of Soviet espionage... The whole paragraph is a bit too much interpretation and conclusion in my view. It tries to judge as to why the decision too keep it secret from a lot of people was the correct thing to do. Already the introduction alluding to a price already bear certain prejudice, because only a person aware of the decision could actually pay that price. In my view that whole paragraph should just be dropped --Ebralph 14:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- Fair criticism; it does not seek to justify, excuse, or criticize. It is in the subhead ==Significance==, and seeks to simply do just that, explain the significance, which, one can assume, will spawn a debate over whether the decision was the correct decision or not. Also, the decision had big consequences. Also, the people who made the decision were neither elected legislators nor political appointees in the executive branch. They were career military and FBI. The language is simply an attempt to bring these facts out in the open, then allow public discussion whereever appropriate. nobs 17:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- In that case it might be better to say it more explicit and less justifying - at least that is the feel that passage makes on me. Debates over the extent of Soviet espionage in the United States were polarized in the dearth of reliable information then in the public ___domain. Anti-Communists suspected that some spies—perhaps including a few who were known to the US Government—remained at large. Those who criticized the government's loyalty campaign as an overreaction, on the other hand, wondered if some defendants were being scapegoated; is something which is pretty much value-free. What follows is guessing as to what people at the time sensed and that can be difficult to argument for. I would also suggest to either reformulate or drop the following sentence: Given the dangerous international situation and what was known by the government at that time, however, continued secrecy was not illogical. It might be ok to say that the government considered the international situation dangerous, but far more divsive is the claim to say that is *was* dangerous. The same thing goes for the last sentence in the paragraph. I wouldn't say that war with the Soviet Union was a possiblity but maybe more that the decision makers considered it a real possibility. That way one does not have to defend a view of that situation but still makes the reasons why people decided as they did understandable. I would also suggest to point out the fact more explicitly, that the decisions were made by career people, not elected legislators, etc. It clarifies the motivation of the author and other people to debate the point. --Ebralph 10:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- That's all true and a well reasoned presentation of the facts. As to "Given the dangerous international situation and what was known by the government at that time, however, continued secrecy was not illogical", I am working right now, and for the next day or two, on a description of the dangerous situation, which is actually intended for another article (I have shied away from it for some time, cause a discription of China is gonna be a Pandora's Box of POV's); so to get into the details of the international situation in 1949-1950 may not be appropriate for this page, other than a passing reference. The business of career bureaucrats, however, is extrememly important and does need to be clarified in the main article. nobs 16:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- I would agree that the whole issue would provide a article in itself. There is an article on the Red Scare which is dedicated to the hysteria associated with the subject. As you can imagine it has become a battle ground over how much hysteria and truth was actually there. That might also provide a useful link in that connection. --Ebralph 23:43, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- The narrative overview of the dangerous situation is at McCarthyism#Tensions_of_the_times. nobs 01:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Yikes! Let's not go ballistic
Folks, folks, folks. There is a middle path. Haynes and Klehr have a list, but I do not think it is fair to list all of the people in that list as confirmed Soviet spies. The terms being bandied about include "covert relationships with Soviet intelligence." but that is being used to imply that people were confirmed operatives or agents. I don't think that is fair. Language is important. At the same time, folks just can't claim that Haynes and Klehr don't exist, or that Romerstein doesn't count as a source. Yet is it fair to assert that these researchers have a bias. But then most of us do, or we would not be editing these pages. Can we please have a discussion over terminology and lists and names, and disputed analysis that can extend to the use of the Venona material and unredacted FBI & other U.S> government agency files on other pages. This is all getting way out of hand.--Cberlet 21:34, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
- If the path now is to question the veracity of of Venona materials themselves, I would suggest (1) the Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy Report (link available from the article, and will be happy to direct you to relevent portions), and (2) Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Secrecy: The American Experience, before you get to committed to a POV. nobs 21:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
- I do not question the fact that the Venona materials exist. I question the highly POV interpretation (extrapolations and interpolations, really) of certain authors. Don't make problems when none exist.--Cberlet 22:21, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
- The veracity of the Venona transcripts has not yet been questioned. Meaning the actual decoded transcripts of messages, not notes jotted afterward by Americans on the margin of these transcripts, or appended (by Americans) as footnotes and whatnot.
- The title of this section said "List of Americans" then right after that it said some of these people were not Americans...please do some internal consistency for this. The Venona transcripts mention codenames, any spying activity says "Agent TOVARISCH copied the secret documents for us", they do not say "Joe Smith from Columbus, Ohio copied secret documents for us". Thus if any list appears it should be of code names, not people suspected of being those code names. You can not just go around, put up a list of dozens of people and say they're all spies without proof. Ruy Lopez 06:11, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
- This is the second time you say that you say that the transcripts mention codenames, not real people. If you look at the discussion further up, you will find that others say that for several there is a reasonable amount of evidence as to who are behind the codenames. If you have specific people, why don't you list them? The tag at the top is enough to warn anybody to the specifics and we can discuss the other in detail as much as you like.
- The ones you have mentioned so far didn't seem to fit in with this fact. What you seem to imply is that any list created by an American is doubtful. In that case you can't be helped because that is no working basis - that is prejudice. I'm reverting the changes you made by taking out the list of names. I take the point with the title and will put that back in.
- As a suggestion: it might be a good idea to seperate the names into several categories thereby making it more obvious which ones are reasonably well established, which are not corroborated, etc. Obviously just being mentioned in a transcript is not enough to be called spy and of course we should make sure that nobody lands on a list which implies as much. On the other hand we should list those which were informants - unwittingly or not. --Ebralph 10:20, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
- The list was put back, but the suggestions above by Ebralph seem reasonable. I have rewritten the list intro for accuracy and NPOV. That should make things easier. The category "Soviet spies" seems way over the top, but I did not cut it. It seems not accurate and POV, however.--Cberlet 11:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
- nobs, your edits are POV and not accurate. The category Soviet Spies includes the name Harry Magdoff. Yet you are in the middle of an editing debate over that very question on a Magdoff page, where the debate is over that very question.--Cberlet 19:29, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
- I don't quite agree with you on Harry Magdoff. Looking on the Talk:Harry_Magdoff#original_research talk page of him, it seems quite clear that there is enough peer reviewed material to support what was said about him. --Ebralph 13:22, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- I have refuted several of the claims being made. In one case there is a claim that the U.S. government named Magdoff as a spy, when in fact it turned out to be a history produced by one agency that was only citing the claim of Elizabeth Bentley.[[Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive, A Counterintelligence Reader, vol. 3, chap. 1, p. 31. (Official History of Counterintelligence Operations in the United States)[[2]] Another document that was claimed to "corroborate" that Magdoff was "complicit" in espionage tunred out not to indicate that at all. See: [[3]].
- Note: See Talk:Harry_Magdoff#original_research in response to concerted vandalism that oocurred regarding discussion of Magdoff. nobs 19:51, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- I have refuted several of the claims being made. In one case there is a claim that the U.S. government named Magdoff as a spy, when in fact it turned out to be a history produced by one agency that was only citing the claim of Elizabeth Bentley.[[Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive, A Counterintelligence Reader, vol. 3, chap. 1, p. 31. (Official History of Counterintelligence Operations in the United States)[[2]] Another document that was claimed to "corroborate" that Magdoff was "complicit" in espionage tunred out not to indicate that at all. See: [[3]].
Fine tuning
We have made tremendous progress. Thanks to everyone for really stretching to be constructive.
This phrase still leaves the wrong impression:
- "The decrypts include code names for 349 individuals who had a covert relationship with Soviet intelligence. It is likely that there were more than 349 participants in Soviet... "
I know that some of you think the list is of "Soviet spies." That is what the current phrasing implies to the average reader. Folks who have spent a long time reading primary and secondary material about intelligence, counterintelligence, and spying might--might--figure out that the list is really just the names that appeared in the unredacted KGB and other Soviet files. But for most people there needs to be a clarification as to what the list really represents. The line that contines "349 participants in Soviet..." cements the contested claim that all 349 were witting participants in espionage.
This paragraph needs to be made NPOV, accurate and helpful to the average reader.--Cberlet 12:56, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Cberlet's claims
Cberlet: Your argument is not with me; it is with Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, with the Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive (ONCIX); with Robert L. Bensen of the National Security Agency Archives; with Allen Weinstein, Archivist of the United States [4], et al. nobs 19:29, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- No, my problem is a substantial disagreement with you over how you represent the actual quotes and content from these sources. You bury these talk pages with source material, but whn I go to the underlying sources, I draw different conslusions than you, and feel that the way you present the material is heavily POV. That's what we need to keep talking about.--Cberlet 20:44, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, we all agree that we don't want to draw any conclusions here. We are not doing research. The touchstone question is: do the mentioned sources say Harry Magdoff was an agent, spy or something else? In writing? I'll admit that I haven't read them, so I can't say - I'm taking it on trust, that the sources do claim that. On the other hand the question to Cberlet is also: is there an article, book, etc. calling into question the accusation? Do you have valid sources that refute the claim?
- Still, to reiterate my former suggestion to get the Tag away: Let's just define something like 3-5 categories (Agent, Source, unwitting Source, etc.) describing the difference at the head of every category and then list the people. For those sources which are contentious, let us mark them as such, link to the page of the person and portrait the two positions. That is surely the most NPOV way to the whole thing. --Ebralph 21:16, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- Cberlet: Please clarify, I beleive I have read two instances where you acknowledged the validity of the underlying evidence. As to "POV" I am somewhat confused; as stated above it is a broad charge, yet no citation of instance (or instances), and they may not be available because of extensive editing (and in some instances, questionable editing, i.e. vandalism). nobs 21:22, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- Cberlet: As to this insertion from Schrecker: "documents from more accessible sources", could you qualify (1) what this vague reference refers to, and (2) why it should be included here. Thank you. (Please note, I requested Cberlet's comment before making a wholesale edit. Thank you.) nobs 21:51, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
- Second question on Schrecker, there are two reference works listed, yet only one quote. Is there a reason for this. Also, please note, there is a much broader political implication vis-a-vis the release of the Venona transcripts, regarding the use of government secrecy, as discussed in the Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy Report. I would suggest partisan arguements be held to minimum, and can be properly discussed elsewhere. And there is a large interest in Venona among a younger generation of cryptographers, who have little interest in or understanding of it's historical significance, let alone political implications for persons living or dead. nobs 22:30, 31 July 2005 (UTC)