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Talk:Universal Code of Conduct/Policy text

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This is an archived version of this page, as edited by Nosebagbear (talk | contribs) at 16:06, 8 September 2020 (→"Respect the way that contributors name and describe themselves": Pronouns, are, unsurprisingly, going to be the sticky wicket). It may differ significantly from the current version.

Latest comment: 4 years ago by Nosebagbear in topic 2 - Expected behavior
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0 - Introduction

Latest comment: 4 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

public and semi public interactions

I think semipublic is one word. Vexations (talk) 21:11, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Indeed. Legoktm (talk) 03:36, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
I'd go for semi-public hyphenated. Pelagic (talk) 03:41, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

So private abuse, say in wikimail or direct-messages on a WM-hosted chat platform, is okay? Pelagic (talk) 04:29, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

context, while

doesn't need a comma Vexations (talk) 21:22, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Can we please not have whole subsections created for single copyedits? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:43, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

baseline of acceptable and unacceptable behavior

I think you mean "expected and unacceptable". Civility, collegiality, solidarity are expected, not merely accepted. Vexations (talk) 21:29, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Agree. Also for consistency: that's what the section headings are called. Pelagic (talk) 04:08, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

This includes:

The first "this includes" refers to the previous sentence "it applies to everyone" and makes sense. The second "this includes" that introduces the bullet list refers to places not people, and made me think "huh?" Suggest "The scope includes:" or "The UCoC applies to the following situations:" or something similar. Pelagic (talk) 03:53, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

1 - Why We Have a UCOC

Latest comment: 4 years ago11 comments8 people in discussion
  • Define 'we'. Who is 'we'? If necessary, use 'we' only in this paragraph, but consider renaming this paragraph to something like "The purpose of this UCoC" and consider avoiding the personal pronouns entirely. If you use 'we', make sure that is clear who is meant by that (it is not clear in the current draft). Eissink (talk) 15:32, 7 September 2020 (UTC).Reply
  • The following change would make the UCoC much more accetable for the autonomy of the projects (for example in en.wikipedia, Wikipedia has no firm rules):
The UCoC provides a baseline of behavior for collaboration on Wikimedia projects worldwide. Communities may add to this to develop policies that take account of local and cultural context, while maintaining the baselines listed here as a minimum standard.
Habitator terrae (talk) 19:40, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • I found the following worthy of discussion:
"defines a baseline of acceptable and unacceptable behavior"

This means that the points adressed in the Code are about "acceptable" behaviour. This sounds very binary. If you do not behave as described in the Code, does that automatically mean that your behaviour is "unacceptable"? For example, the Code says: "lend them a hand when they need support". So if I do not lend someone support, does that mean that my behaviour is "unacceptable"? Ziko (talk) 20:18, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

I just noticed: "Expected behavior". So in spite of the line I quoted above, it seems that there are three different categories? Acceptable, Expected, or Unacceptable? Ziko (talk) 20:21, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Acting in contradiction with

WMF initiated actions

  • "Acting in contradiction with the UCoC can result in sanctions being imposed by the community representatives and functionaries of the platforms (as per the local communities endorsement and contextualisation) or the Wikimedia Foundation as the legal owner of the platforms." (Emphasis mine)

If the WMF starts throwing around bolts from the blue for violating this policy (and as-written you can make the argument that EVERYONE has violated some part of this policy), there's going to be drama. That's not a threat, it's just a statement of fact. The WMF lacks the nuanced, context-dependent ability to make judgments on these cases. They should be left for a group of their peers to decide (arbitration committees, or equivalents). If a problem is pervasive within a project and still unacceptable, have that project judged by other similar wikiprojects. Do NOT, however, have some WMF staffer who doesn't understand that Wikipedia only works in practice and hasn't done the workflows that the person in question does make a unilateral decision. That's how you get Fram ban style drama. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

the local communities endorsement

Should be possessive: the local communities' endorsement. Pelagic (talk) 04:14, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

duplication of "contributors and participants"

This applies to all contributors and participants in their interaction with all contributors and participants sounds awkward. Anyone got better wording? Would "applies to all contributors and participants in their interactions" do? Pelagic (talk) 04:16, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Poorly worded bracketed text

The bracketed "(as per the local communities endorsement and contextualisation)"could mean everything or nothing. There is probably a missing possessive apostrophe but even with this, is the "as per" seeking to refer to the process of selecting representatives or to their agreement to a decision (before or after it is made?). And what is the vacuity of "contextualisation" performing here? AllyD (talk) 06:22, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

2 - Expected behavior

Latest comment: 4 years ago33 comments19 people in discussion

This whole section is, sorry, unacceptable. It is simply impossible to impose respect, civility, collegiality, solidarity and good citizenship and all those fine things by a "code of conduct" and sanctions. A code can say that certain clearly defined behaviours like insult etc. are forbidden. A code can never induce "positive" behaviour. Respect, solidarity etc. enforced by a code are devoid of any value. They can only be given out of one's own free will.Mautpreller (talk) 21:16, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

I agree with Mautpreller. We are talking about to different patterns of behaviour:

  • A: "Politeness", "civility", "good manners".
  • B: "Friendliness", "collegiality", "helpful". Requires a real smile, not only a fake smile. :-)

This might depend on the culture of an individual or a society. But in my perception, we can expect people to be polite. That is the baseline. (We might argue what behaviour counts exactly as polite, though.)

But we cannot expect people to be friendly, always, to everybody. Some might say, like Mautpreller, that friendliness is based on friendly feelings and must come from the heart. Others might say that you can expect friendliness from a professional who is trained e.g. as a Social Media manager and is paid for that work. But the WM regulars are volunteers, and they have the task to protect the wikis and deal sometimes with really nasty newbies.

And then again, we have to make the distinction which behaviour we find "only" desirable and worth observing, and which behaviour we find unacceptable that should be sanctioned. Ziko (talk) 15:32, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

2.1 - Respect

“Always assume good faith”

Assume good faith is a very important rule guideline but the “always” part is problematic. At some point AGF is no longer warranted and actions must be taken to protect the project or other users. Maybe the wording should be changed here slightly? --Count Count (talk) 14:45, 7 September 2020 (UTC) Corrected. --Count Count (talk) 18:39, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

enwiki’s AGF rule is never promoted as “policy”, so why should AGF be part of UCoC? Furthermore, it is barely followed in some exceptional circumstances, so either scrap it or rewrite the whole rule from the scratch. George Ho (talk) 18:29, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

I struggle with this point, too. What is AGF? A recommendation, or a firm rule that, if violated, will lead automatically to a ban? How to communicate about someone who wants to abuse a Wikimedia wiki for his own purposes? Ziko (talk) 20:10, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

To always assume good faith is not possible. Vandals do not edit in good faith. Undisclosed paid editors do not edit in good faith. POV pushers do not edit in good faith. Vexations (talk) 21:39, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

"Respect the way that contributors name and describe themselves"

This is a huge problem, and why enwiki removed honorifics in article space. To explain why, suppose I say that my name is 107.242.121.53, M.D., and I am an expert in Glaswegian homeopathy. That clearly shouldn't go without scrutiny.

I have no opinion on pronouns, except to say that getting them wrong shouldn't be something that editors should be punished for unless it happens repeatedly after a clearly given notification, e.g. on the offender's talk page. 107.242.121.53 19:16, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

It should be very clear that you should use someone's preferred pronoun after you've been told by them which one it is. If you don't know their pronoun, use "they/them" or the equivalent in your language (which, admittedly, does not exist in most languages). The issue is when people misgender others knowingly, which is what that specific code is about. Isabelle 🔔 19:38, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
While I agree in principle, I wonder if you really mean to suggest that the hypothetical User:JohnAnylastname should be referred to as "they/them" absent instructions to the contrary in a context where "he/him" would disambiguate the pronouns' referent from an otherwise likely anticedent? 107.242.121.53 19:55, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
I think both are absolutely fine, just as I'm fine with people assuming I use "she/her" due to my name. Using "they/them" from the get-go is, in my opinion, better, since it avoids misgendering people you never met. But that's neither here nor there, as the point of my comment was that, after being told by UserX which pronoun they'd prefer you to use, that's the point where using any other pronoun would mean you are going against the UCOC, not before. I wouldn't be against that section being clearer about that, though. Isabelle 🔔 20:00, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, that's how it works in English-speaking world, I guess. The problem here is that many languages (for example, Russian) have only an equivalent of "it" as a gender-neutral pronoun which is designated for some inanimate objects and is offensive if used towards people. Moreover, some languages (Russian, again) are so intervened with grammatical gender that it's impossible to even describe someone else's actions without implying their gender (due to grammatical conjugation of verbs also being heavily based on grammatical gender). Thus, if we are to use the language as taught in schools and reliable language institutions, we end up with only two grammatical genders to choose from and inability to use something gender-neutral towards people, even if we use their nickname instead of pronoun, we have to choose the grammatical gender to conjugate verbs. And there's no really any good way around this, as the language is extremely conservative and any attempt to alter it quickly (for example, by forcibly introducing feminine versions of some words which have male grammatical gender) is perceived as a newspeak and rejected by majority of speakers and established language institutions.

And yeah, sometimes language rules force you to use masculine grammatical gender towards females if you refer to them with a noun that only has masculine grammatical gender version (for example, "soldier", "miner", "engineer", "doctor", etc), so if you're strict about following language's rules, it's really impossible to always use preferred grammatical gender in Russian, even if it's very clear that the preferred one is feminine. Adamant.pwn (talk) 12:46, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Hi, Adamant.pwn! The same is basically true for Portuguese, my native language, where we don't still have an agreed upon gender neutral pronoun. And I know that's how it goes for most other languages. I don't think the point of that ruling is to force people to find a gender neutral pronoun in their language and start using it, but to respect whichever pronoun someone chose for themselves within the constraint of their language. My suggestion to use "they/them" by default of course is only valid in English, and even then it's just a suggestion to try to be as inclusive as possible, but not a requirement. I do share your concern about nouns (like "doctor" and whatnot), but like I said, it's about working within the constraints of the language and not being afraid to ask others how they'd prefer to be addressed. Isabelle 🔔 13:19, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
I hope it indeed will be within the constraints of the language. There are some people who try to invent some neologisms to fight the issue the way they see fit in Russian. At the moment their views are mostly perceived as fringe by scholars and I don't feel like giving their ideas undue weight because of this policy. Adamant.pwn (talk) 13:51, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
I find this point problematic because of the differences in languages; and again: how universal and firm should this rule be? If someone wants to be adressed as Jedi Master, will I be banned if I don't comply? Ziko (talk) 20:12, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
this shoud be somehow limited to respectful self determination. Any self determination cannot asserts superiority (no one has right to selfdetermine as "Your Master" f.e.). The best way is to provide closed list of acceptable references and appropriate pronouns (in an end form of user templates). --91.193.176.200 08:01, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • If I'm being totally honest, unless someone clearly identifies themselves as male or female, I'm just going to use the singular "they". If I've met you IRL, and/or your name is clearly "Tom" or "Sally", then I'll use "he" or "she". If someone wants me to keep track of who should be a zi, xhe, xi, di, ye, bee...I'm just not going to do it. Sorry. There's a few hundred thousand of us milling about. I'm not going to keep a spreadsheet of which neologism applies to which person. If you're offended that I use the singular "they", then you need to find something more important to have an opinion about. GMGtalk 13:39, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • I'm seeing the current phrasing as an issue. The comments on other languages all seem relevant, and come from those vastly more informed than me, so I'll focus on English. It has a couple of significant points: one is that it shouldn't be sanctionable unless individuals are willfully ignoring pronoun choices. The other is that even assuming it doesn't cover flat out bonkers self-designations, it's dubious as to whether we should enable forced amendments to the language. For example, there's quite a few functionally neologism pronouns, and none beyond they/them that are generally accepted. Does the UCOC bind them into existence? I discourage that Nosebagbear (talk) 16:06, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

concrete, measurable strategies

What on earth is a concrete, measurable strategy? Vexations (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Positive guidance is good!

I like the way that this section sets out desirable, positive behaviours. This prevents the Code becoming simply a list of things not to do. At present I feel lots of Wiki-culture relies on negative behavioural rules - "No personal attacks! No outing! Don't do this!". Giving some positive guidance firstly means there is something for people to aspire and work towards, and secondly is less subject to Wikilawyering. Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 12:19, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

engage in constructive, positive editing

Some editing is by necessity destructive; removing a statement is sometimes required. Deleting an article is also destructive, but sometimes necessary. Pointing out that a statement is wrong or unverifiable is "negative". It would be better to say "Your contributions should improve the quality of the project". (contributed by Vexations)

Nor will we distinguish based on

Shouldn't we be distinguishing -between- two things? Vexations (talk)

Dinstinguishing based on accomplishments, skills or standing

It would be quite remarkable to prohibit a distinction "based on accomplishments, skills or standing in the Wikimedia-projects or movement". If that were the standard that "applies to everyone who interacts with and contributes to online and offline Wikimedia projects and spaces", surely we could no longer justify, say, voting against a candidate for adminship due to their inexperience, or reject an application for checkuser access because a user has no good standing in the community. Of course, I would also hope that the Wikimedia Foundation follows suit and selects their next general counsel without regard to their skills ... In the real world, people are of course distinguished based on accomplishments and skills all the time, and usually anti-discrimination activists not just accept this, but actively demand it. Therefore, whatever may have been the intention here, and while I certainly appreciate the careful work by the drafting committee on the overall draft, I have to say that this particular part reads like satire to me. — Pajz (talk) 12:43, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

I guess it is to exclude the communication like "I am admin (have 100K edits, have been around for 15 years), and who are you so that we should listen to your opinion?". It may not be be formulated in the best possible way, but I think the idea is clear.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:49, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
I read is similarly to how Ymblanter does. People should be shown a similar level of civility, collegiality and respect regardless of their contribution history, and "I have ten million edits" is no excuse for breaching those standards. I think there can probably be some more editing of this point, but the intention is very sound. Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 15:05, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

2.2 - Civility, collegiality, solidarity and good citizenship

In addition to my remarks under 1. (define 'we'), this section is an example of the ambiguity of "we". First it addresses "(every) Wikimedian" and "their own behavior", then "all contributors" and "their interactions", but then shifts to "nor will we distinguish". A universal code needs a universal auctor, not a constant change of perspective that suggests there is a higher 'we' that is different from the universal contributor (see more or less similar auctorial changes in sections 2.1 and 3.2 in the current draft; in this context, maybe contemplate on the use of "you / your" also). Eissink (talk) 18:21, 7 September 2020 (UTC).Reply

I agree, this could be better. Ziko (talk) 21:26, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • I'm not a fan of this one. It places expectations and demands on solitary toilers who work on content alone, without bothering anyone. Reyk (talk) 06:42, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • For some people mentorship and coaching is unacceptablre and humiliating. the statement shoud be changed to "Readiness for mentorship and coaching" - the newcomer should ask for help, not the old one impose it. The first question for obviously confused newcomer must be "Would you mind I help you?" not the helping action iself. And as the new statement I suggest "Stay away from other until they ask for any help". --91.193.176.200 08:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Civility, collegiality, and good citizenship are defined in the first paragraph, but solidarity is a bullet point. Why? Pelagic (talk) 08:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Also, this section says what civility, collegiality, and good citizenship are, but it doesn't say what to do about them. Avoid them strenuously? Pelagic (talk) 08:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Finally, "This includes but is not limited to" – what includes? Looks like missing a paragraph before this. (signing items separately to aid replies) Pelagic (talk) 08:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hello, this is interesting. When I looked up what "good citizenship" might mean, my dictionaries had no specific answer. English Wikipedia has an article, but it existy only in English. In German or Dutch, I associate the word "citizenship" usually with the topics democracy and government. Ziko (talk) 15:37, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

3 - Unacceptable behavior

Latest comment: 4 years ago28 comments19 people in discussion

3.1 - Harassment

what a reasonable person would

I’m really happy that we have a reasonableness test here. Where I work, my employer has adopted an industry Model Code of Conduct (it would look bad not to) which says, in effect, that if someone feels harassed then harassment has taken place. When I raised the issue with the consultant/trainer at our mandatory training session, her response was that the entry barrier to filing against harassment was such that I shouldn’t worry about vexatious or wrongful complaints(!). Anyone who has had to deal in real life with a person having borderline personality disorder or just a garden-variety manipulative psychopath would know how much damage such a person can cause by presenting themself as a victim. We need to have protections from those who would subvert the system, either inadvertently as a result of their world-view, or purposely as a way of defeating those they don’t like. Pelagic (talk) 11:07, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

If an editor believes that another editor may be incurring or causing others to incur a legal liability in any jurisdiction, how should they articulate that information in a way that can not be seen as a legal threat? 107.242.121.53 19:26, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Working to cause someone to doubt their understanding

This definition of gaslighting is fundamentally incompatible with more than a few of the components of the second and first of the w:Wikipedia:Five pillars. If this was enacted as a policy, what would happen if an anti-vaxxer accused a public health outcomes editor of trying to cause them to doubt their understanding?

Can this prohibition be re-phrased in objective instead of subjective terms? 107.242.121.53 19:38, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Right to Leave

Hello, I read the following sentence:

"Stalking: following a person across the project and repeatedly critiquing their work with the intent to upset or discourage them."

In general I agree that "stalking" is problematic, also given that we have partially a quite wiki specific phenomenon of stalking (following and disturbing someone's edits).

But I did stumble over this, because the idea came to me: what about telling someone that he should leave the wiki? I also understand the Code that it is not allowed to make someone's skills an issue (?). Does that mean, that under no circumstances one should be allowed to tell someone that he should leave the wiki? Ziko (talk) 20:34, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

You're going to have to be careful with this one. What is the correct response when an editor notices a bad edit? Fix it, and then check the OTHER edits by that contributor to see if there's a pattern that needs a cleanup. Tazerdadog (talk) 22:03, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Ziko: why would it be up to you to tell someone "should" leave the wiki? It isn't, I think it never is. Users may be blocked by sysops, but no individual user should demand that another user has to leave. Eissink (talk) 22:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC).Reply

advances of any kind

I think you mean sexual advances, not any kind of forward movement. Vexations (talk) 21:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

"following a person across the project and repeatedly critiquing their work with the intent to upset or discourage them."

So I'm not allowed to repeatedly revert and warn obvious spammers and vandals? Yes, when I leave a series of warning templates, I'm trying to "discourage" the user from spamming or vandalizing. That's the whole point. And there is, after all, usually a "person" behind even the most disruptive accounts. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

"Stalking"

In English Wikipedia this term is deprecated: see w:Wikipedia_talk:Harassment/Archive_1#Wikihounding.--GZWDer (talk) 22:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Sarcasm

Prohibiting "repeated sarcasm"? What a brilliant idea! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:31, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

3.2 - Abuse of power, privilege, or influence

Hello, I wonder who exactly is addressed by this sentence:

"Abuse occurs when someone in a real or perceived position of power, privilege, or influence engages in disrespectful, cruel, and/or violent behavior toward other people."

This means - everybody, because others might perceive e.g. myself to be a person of "power, privilege, or influence"? Ziko (talk) 20:28, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes. Eissink (talk) 20:48, 7 September 2020 (UTC).Reply
  • "In Wikimedia environments it [abuse] most frequently takes the form of etc." – this wording expresses the ongoing and continuous abuse as a fact. In other words, as long as the UCoC is valid, it states the presence of abuse as a matter of fact, not of possibility. In a way it invokes the abuse. This can not (should not) be the intention of a UCoC, more careful wording seems wanted ("In Wikimedia environments most likely it might take the form of etc. etc."?). Eissink (talk) 20:48, 7 September 2020 (UTC).Reply

Gaslighting

"Working (alone or with a group) to cause someone to doubt their own perceptions, senses, or understanding." How am I to understand this? I definitely hope that others cause me to doubt my own perceptions, senses, and understanding. This is one reason for my Wikipedia contribution. At the same time, I shall not refrain from causing doubts etc. in others.Mautpreller (talk) 21:04, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Mautpreller:, you know I am the greatest Wikipedian ever. Please don't make me doubt my perception! :-) - I think I understand what is the intention behind this rule, but we see the problems with this wording. Ziko (talk) 21:10, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
I largely agree. There is of course a serious and important point about en:w:Gaslighting, but I'm struggling to suggest a way to phrase it better. Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 16:03, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Manipulating content

3.3 - Content vandalism and abuse of the projects

  • This provision prohibits "Unwarranted, unjustified addition of symbols, images, or content with the intent to intimidate or harm others." How shall WMF determine "intent" in this manner? I imagine if I posted a Nazi flag on my userpage identifying myself as a proud Nazi it would be deleted under the code, but there are other symbols which fall into grey areas. Specifically, I remember coming across a userpage some time ago (I think the user had been blocked or retired, can't remember) and they had posted a custom userbox which displayed the Confederate Battle Flag with a comment about being a proud Southerner. Many Americans now regard that flag as a symbol of white supremacy, while some of its proponents argue its just good ol' regional pride. Would the WMF try and heavily account for context and the poster's own words, or are there some symbols that will basically be outright banned? -Indy beetle (talk) 01:15, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "Deliberately introducing incorrect or biased content" -- properly defining on a global level which content is truly "incorrect and biased" might be extremely hard, especially given that RS in English and local languages might have, umgh, opposite views on what is incorrect and what is biased due to differences in cultural background. It might be possible to grin and bear uninvited global moderation in discussions, but if it can as well extend to article's content... Oh, well. Adamant.pwn (talk) 12:09, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • Regarding "Repeated removal of Wikimedia content without appropriate peer review or constructive feedback for improvement" - there can be legitimate reasons for this, summarised in the en-wp essay en:WP:DOLT, which cross-references a speech given by Jimmy Wales in 2006 [1]. In short, the scenario I picture here is where the editor removing the content is the subject or related to the subject, believes it to be factually incorrect or distressing, and wants to remove it to avoid such a distress - in such instances, a conduct sanction could potentially cause great harm to the projects. Ritchie333 (talk) 14:15, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

3.4 Undisclosed paid editing

This section is missing, but undisclosed paid editing and advocacy are unacceptable. Editors who engage in this behavior should be banned. Refusal to answer queries about a Conflict of Interest should result in indefinite blocks. Vexations (talk) 22:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

This is addressed in the terms of use, and Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies are permitted; therefore, the requirement of disclosure of paid editing is not universal. In particular, it is not required on Commons (which impacts almost every other project) and technical matters related to MediaWiki, which definitely affects every project. Risker (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

3.x

Much of above falls within principle "Discuss edits not editors". w:en:Argumentum ad hominem shoud be banned as the first rule, consequently harrasment, stalking etc. will be banned too. --91.193.176.200 08:18, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

The header to this section obscures the context. Nevertheless I would suggest that all logical fallacies should be disallowed in argument, while agreeing that ad hominem in its subtler forms is quite prevalent, and often not called out. Possibly because neither side recognises it for what it is. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 15:53, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

General comments

Latest comment: 4 years ago20 comments16 people in discussion

The whole CoC is nothing more and nothing less than the manifesto of complete distrust, disgust and total rejection of the communities by the WMF. Dictatorships and multinational corporations of oppression may create something like this for themselves in order to keep the subordinates subordinate. Anyone who deals with voluntary, voluntary contributors in this way destroys the relationship. In the fixed idea of forcing everyone to unite under one roof, exactly the opposite will happen. In addition, the door is wide open to abuse. Marcus Cyron (talk) 15:01, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dispute resolution

I was hoping for a movement-wide dispute resolution framework. Any plans for such? I'm generally opposed to enactment of normative rules without a way to determine the extent, if any, of transgressions, and their consequences. 107.242.121.53 19:44, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Based on Universal Code of Conduct/FAQ#Enforcement I believe that's supposed to happen in part 2, after the Board approves this draft. Legoktm (talk) 04:01, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Overall comment on section 2 (Expected behaviour)

I’ll let others comment on the details of the wording in this as a whole, but I’m fairly concerned about how this section is worded. It’s a set of positive expectations. Positive expectations in a code of conduct quite easily could be read as imposing a duty, and the language is broad enough that literally anyone could be in violation of this section at any time. My gut is that the WMF has no intent of actually enforcing it as such, but if that’s the case, just remove it and add anything that should be an expectation to the forbidden list as a negative thing rather than a positive (ex. Use “No one may call Foo Bar” instead of “There is an expectation that Foo is treated with empathy including with the names they are called.”

If there’s actually an expectation of enforcing section 2, I’d be concerned. Positive expectations are usually enforced arbitrarily and can just be something to point to when you want to kick someone out in many organizations. This is because almost everyone will violate them at some point, so having them gives a lot of power to those enforcing them if a decision is made to enforce as rules rather than have them as a positive vision. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:37, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, nobody is perfect. --Rschen7754 20:44, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
In general I think we should express the behavior we want people to follow in a positive manner (semirelated past discussion). If it just listed "don't do X" that doesn't actually instruct users what they should do. I do agree with you in that mandating people do positive things is potentially problematic, given that we don't really require people to do anything. I hope we can include positive expectations in a guideline or recommendation manner. Legoktm (talk) 03:59, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Clarification is needed. Are the positive expectations actually required, or are they wishful thinking. If required, everyone who works at the coalface will break them some time, putting them at the mercy of the back seat drivers who know how everyone else should behave, but do not put themselves in the position where they themselves are tested. If they are wishful, some people will simply ignore them. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 15:43, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

How a wiki works

Hello, reading the draft code for the first time, I would like to make a general comment. In general I support a code and hope that it will help to approach some long time problems in the movement better.

Please keep in mind the following: Wikipedia allows everybody to edit; on the other hand, we and our readers have expectations about the content - for good reasons. This means that criticising content (contributed by others) is part of the very wiki concept.

The task of the regular Wikipedians is not only to welcome newbies and show solidarity with everybody, a Wikipedia has also the task to filter (new) content, to improve or delete it. That's collaboration. Of course, this can often lead to situations experienced by some as unpleasant. (I am not talking about insults and harassment, but simply about altering someone else's content.)

To give you an example, based on a real story: User A notices that user B has written a new Wikipedia article, based partially on the autobiography of a historically disputed person. A asks B not to make use of this kind of "sources". But B continues, and also creates footnotes in many other articles. So, A goes from article to article to delete those footnotes. On the user talk page, he tells B not to go on but to help with reverting.

Why do I come up with this? Because the behaviour of A has a striking resemblance with "stalking" as described in the draft code:

"Stalking: following a person across the project and repeatedly critiquing their work with the intent to upset or discourage them."

So Wikipedians have two tasks, and it is indeed not always easy to find a good balance between both of them. I hope that it will be possible to improve the draft code in a way that helps us with finding this good balance. Ziko (talk) 20:59, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Reply


My few problems

Hello fellow editors! I only have a few concerns/issues with this draft, much less than I had expected, and I may as well word them as answerable concerns for those who wrote this:

  • "It applies to all in-person and virtual events, technical spaces, and all Wikimedia projects and wikis." This is quite vague. Is IRC, OTRS, MediaWiki-facilitated email, etc., considered to be an area in which the UCoC applies? And if so, how is it to be enforced? The definition of "technical spaces" and "in-person and virtual events" is not given, and the list given after it only further confuses the message. Does this apply only to WMF-sanctioned technical spaces, and if so does this override their existing codes of conduct? And what is the line regarding "public and semi public interactions"? The list given is partly composed of places where discussion occurs and partly of topics of discussion; it's garbled, vague, and the practical implementation and intended interpretation is unclear.
  • It is easy to mandate civility, but respect, empathy, and solidarity? We're here to build an encyclopedia, not be therapists for eachother. Mandating the given definitions of empathy and solidarity could honestly put anyone and everyone in violation of this thing. Same goes for respect. I'm not sure of the practical definition of respect used for this; "showing regard for others" in the most literal interpretation could be satisfied with "I recognize you exist." For me, at least, I don't automatically respect people I know nothing about, nor am I willing or able to expend time on anyone and everyone who appears they could use assistance. In every usage of the term "respect" I'm aware of, it's something created over time through interpersonal relations, not mandated by a central authority. One can, however, respect the right or priviledge of others to do something without knowing them personally, such as by conforming to what they wish to be referred to as. That can also be considered part of basic civility, however. I don't believe any more than a section on civility is needed; we cannot force people to do any more than communicate civilly, a term which can be expanded upon and encompasses everything necessary (see WM:URB) and nearly everything in 2 that is feasible can be classified under civility. It would minimize buzzwords, keep it simple, and ensure that this UCoC can actually be enforced, not just looked at.
  • Ehhhh...can we remove the "always" from the bit on AGF? I'd have a lot of work to do changing "Vandalism" and "Long-term abuse" block summaries to "Misunderstanding of existing community consensus" and "Long-term attempts to help the project in ways which others disagree would help the project", lest we imply that they acted in bad faith. (sarcasm but you see the point)
  • With regards to "Mentorship and coaching", is this mandating it, stating it as categorically good, or something else? It seems, to me at least, that this entire document needs some method of designating what is required and what is simply a good activitiy. If all of it is required, well, that's impossible; you can't coerce an editor into mentoring or otherwise expending their labor in the services of other editors, that must be done voluntarily.
  • My question about whether something is required or classified as categorically good applies to the rest of 2.2.
  • For the bit on threats, I do not understand why "reputational harm" was included, or the stated end goal of having an editor "behave the way you want". This could be applied to literally thousands of cases. If I am threatening an editor with a block if they continue to do a certain negative action, I am threatening, among other things, reputational harm in an effort to have them behave the way I (and the community) want.
On the same bit about threats, I am very happy to see NLT finally becoming part of global policy. Please keep that in.
  • For the stalking bit, I again fear that this can be applied to way too many situations where it obviously isn't a problem. If I find an editor writing a completely terrible article, or spam, and go through their contributions to find other instances of it, then nominating all of them for deletion, this could very well fall under the incredibly vague definition of "stalking" given. If the criticism of their work is accurate and in good faith (which it always is, because apparently everything is always good faith now <sarcasm note>), it would be a negative for the project not to address it, regardless of emotional effects to the person who was spamming or writing bad articles. Though the bit about intent does help.
  • The last section could use some clarification. Most projects don't have enough editors for peer review of every removal of content, and very often you find lone editors on small projects going on large cleanup sprees handling tons of problems. And editors should not be obligated to provide assistance replacing bad content which they removed; there is no deadline, for one, and also why would someone do work when they're mandated to more than double it once they start? This is what I assume is meant by "constructive feedback for improvement". Perhaps it could be adjusted to focus on not continuing to remove content when contested by other editors, and that editors should be discussing their issues and coming to a resolution? Though honestly this seems like it should be purely local; if you're going to have this you might as well just port all of enwiki's project-space to meta and make it all global policy.
  • "Systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view" - We do this all the time. We favor neutral points of view, ones suported by appropriate sources, and dsisfavor fringe views, those not supported by appropriate sources. The problems lie in what sources are appropriate; the one stating that [insert atrocity here] never happened, the one stating that it was really much smaller than everyone else says, the one saying it was the largest [type of atrocity] in human history, or any other source. The editors who add these, in many cases, do so out of the belief that the view they are adding is correct, even if to others it clearly is not. That sentence is by no means able to enact what I believe the intention was, of mandating whatever is currently considered the correct view of a historical event. Reword/clarify? Something like this might be better: "Manipulating content to unduly favor fringe interpretations of subjects or events and/or preventing such fringe interpretations from being contested." The definition of "unduly" in this case would be the same as on enwiki's WP:UNDUE, and though I know how much people love the word, "systematically" would prevent issues happening only on one page or with one user from being addressed, as well as requiring that the systematic nature of an issue be proven before it can be addressed.
  • "Unwarranted, unjustified addition..." what's warranted, what's justified?

In a nutshell, my issues with this draft are that it doesn't seem like the practical applications of it were taken into account during writing. Most of it is vague, could apply to everything and nothing, there's no noted separation between what is stated as good and what is required, there's many words which have no acceptable definition (in the context of the UCoC) yet would play an immense role in the interpretation and implementation of it in a given circumstance, and the other issues I've noted above. Thankfully, this is the draft, and everything could be ironed out prior to implementation. Best regards, and happy editing, Vermont (talk) 00:00, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Sometimes vagueness is due to a different focus, and not noticing that what you mean may not be what you say, sometimes it is deliberately included so that it can be interpreted later to serve a specific and possibly unpopular agenda, sometimes it is just due to incompetence, or failure to use clear language, or inaccurate translation of a concept which is clear in one language but not in another. To an outsider it is difficult to know what the causes are. If the vagueness is removed and clarity achieved, it does not really matter what the original causes were. Without sufficient clarity to be actionable in a way that can be understood and agreed by a large majority of users, we just get more wikilawyering and disputes that end in widespresd community dissatisfaction. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 15:32, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

The theory and the reality

Being nice to everyone (or else be sanctioned) is a great idea but life is a lot more complex when anyone can edit, including POV-pushers, cranks, right-great-wrongers and other problematic people. At a conference or in a workplace, everyone can be controlled and if someone melts down with a spray of expletives, they can be removed, perhaps temporarily. But at Wikipedia, such removal would usually be exactly the wrong result. By all means, remove those who lose their temper, but only after there is a method to deal with the POV-pushers, cranks, right-great-wrongers and other problematic people. Johnuniq (talk) 03:29, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

What is the job of the W?F? What *isn't* their job?

Here is the original job description for the W?F before they expanded it to include all sorts of new responsibilities:
Original announcement forming the W?F in June 2003:[2],
W?F Mission statement as of February 2006: [3] (Earliest archive at the Wayback machine. Does anyone have a link to something from 2003 or 2004?)
W?F vision as of December 2008: [4] (Earliest archive at the Wayback machine. Does anyone have a link to something from 2003 or 2004?)
W?F bylaws as of November 2004: [5]
Here is the job of the W?F:
  • Keeping the servers running.
  • Stopping that small subset of user behavior that can get the W?F fined or W?F employees arrested (stopping any attempts to use any W?F-controlled webpage for child pornography, pirating, software, publishing credit card numbers, doxing, that sort of thing) even if that community wants to do such a thing
  • Maintaining the software.
  • Doing the accounting and other functions that all US nonprofits are required to do by law.
Here are some optional things that are allowed and/or desirable but not strictly required:
  • Fundraising
  • Awarding grants
  • Creating all manner of non-binding advice to individual W?F projects
  • Stepping in when a W?F project has nobody to perform certain essential functions, then stepping back when the project no longer needs that kind of help
  • Incubating new kinds of W?F wikis and new language versions of existing W?F wikis
  • Having meetings in exotic vacation destinations and paying the favored few to attend
Here are things that are NOT the job of the W?F:
  • Deciding what the content should be for any W?F Wiki that has people and procedures in place to do that without W?F "help"
  • Deciding what the content should be for any W?F Wiki that has people and procedures in place to do that without help
  • Resolving disputes between editors on any W?F Wiki that has people and procedures in place to do that
  • Enforcing rules concerning user behavior (with the limited exceptions mentioned above) for any W?F Wiki that has people and procedures in place to do that
As currently designed, this Universal Code of Conduct is out of scope for the W?F and is yet another attempt to overrule the English Wikipedia (we all know that they aren't targeting the Icelandic Wictionary with this) in the area of user conduct. It isn't the W?F's job to do that.
This could easily become something that is within the range of acceptable W?F behavior: simply make the Code of Conduct purely advisory, provide translations of it, and encourage (but not require) the various W?F projects to adopt and enforce it. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:50, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Things can change over time, and in fact they do. And reading your fear that the English Wikipedia might be overruled, I cannot but think that it is a very good thing that we will have a UCoC soon. Eissink (talk) 05:04, 8 September 2020 (UTC).Reply
  • While I wouldn't advise treating this as if it were coming from a completely external entity (eg, Microsoft or the government of Botswana), the proposed UCoC should not be considered as though there is currently any authority backing it. The WMF does not set regular conduct policy, period. Either it will be adopted by the communities or not; the WMF's say-so is irrelevant. If they would like community feedback, it could be worthwhile to give it to them, as the community-WMF relationship is important (even though their behaviour here has been far from acceptable), but that doesn't go so far as to require that we delegate policy authority to them. I don't expect them to take this nicely, but we'll work through it as best we can. --Yair rand (talk) 06:21, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

my 2 cents

I didn't see anything about conflict resolution or de-escalation in the document. What brought this to mind was the section on showing solidarity to fellow Wikimedians and specifically to "speak up for them when they are treated in a way that falls short of our standards". There will be numerous situations where multiple parties are involved in a dispute and no one is behaving well. What is the expected behavior or acceptable or encouraged behavior in such cases?

Where is bullying covered in section 3? It doesn't seem to be either exactly harassment or necessarily abuse of power.

Stalking is a problem, but the definition in the document leaves room for misinterpretation. A few examples for clarification: 1) a user creates a stub about a woman in some scientific field. Another user feels this is part of an organized attempt to get more articles about women into Wikipedia in the name of political correctness, even though they are not notable. That second user marks not only that article for deletion but all of the other recently created articles about women by the first user, with the (marginal) claim that the subjects are not notable. Depending on the facts, this might be (and imo probably is) stalking. 2) A user creates an entry on one of the Wiktionaries that uses a definition from a copyrighted dictionary. A second user checks the content, finds that it is taken verbatim from a copyrighted dictionary, and reverts it with an explanation. That user then checks all of the first user's recent contributions and find that they also use copyrighted material. The second user continues to monitor the contributions of the first user, until it's clear that the first user has understood that no copyrighted material may be used, they leave, or they are blocked for persisting. In this case I think we can't call it stalking, although the intent is clearly to discourage the specific behavior. 3) In the case of a repeat vandal, following their contributions closely and reverting them all would be done with the explicit intent to discourage the person, and yet again this would not be considered stalking. (Note: I have done the last two and been an observer of a case of the first type.)

I'm uncertain about the language about a baseline of acceptable behavior; a baseline would imply that refusal to meet the baseline has consequences. But there is a large neutral area between the acceptable behavior baseline and the unacceptable behavior baseline. What happens to behavior that falls in this area? If nothing happens, we're not really talking about baseline acceptable, but something else. We can encourage certain behavior, perhaps.

This is already too long so I'm stopping here. Good luck! -- ArielGlenn (talk) 09:48, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Generally I agree with what stands above. I would point out that there are people who probably believe that their behaviour is correct, but others do not agree. If they are sanctioned without ever understanding why and how their behaviour is unacceptable, they cannot learn and will be lost to the projects. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 15:05, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Trust & Safety

I strongly object to this page "being monitored by Wikimedia Foundation’s Trust and Safety team." This is the most unsuitable monitoring institution that could have been found. If monitoring is necessary, one should look for unbiased persons. T&S is by definition biased regarding this subject. And what is even more problematic: T&S themselves are in the habit of accusing and judging "perpetrators" in procedures that have been criticized as unfair and uncontrolled. This should definitely exclude them as moderators and "monitorers" of a discussion of this subject.Mautpreller (talk) 08:23, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Something or other from GMG

  • It's a bit redundant to say "all in-person and virtual events, technical spaces, and all Wikimedia projects and wikis" and then try to list what "all" is. "All" means "all". Just keep it simple and allow your words to mean what they mean.
  • When meeting in person - This should be entirely removed. If you are creating a "universal" code of conduct that applies in all spaces, online and in person, then you do not need special mention of meeting in person.
  • The "protected class" lists:
    • intelligence, appearance, ethnicity, race, religion, culture, caste, sexual orientation, gender, disability, age, nationality, political affiliation, or other characteristics
    • race, religion, skin color, sexual identity, gender identity, ethnicity, disability, or national origin
    • You kinda need to pick one here. It implies that the classes where it's not okay to insult someone are meaningfully different from the classes where it's not okay to engage in hate speech. Should probably just add to the preamble or somewhere similar "the following applies to [list of protected classes]".
  • following a person across the project We have more than one of those.
  • "Intent"
    • intent to upset or discourage them
    • intentionally provoke someone
    • unintended implication
    • with the intent to intimidate
    • We should avoid the implication of mind reading, especially in the context of online semi-anonymous text-based communities. Where the rubber meets the road, no one cares about intent. If someone is being harassing then it is not particularly important if they intend to harass. The use of intent itself can easily run counter to AGF, which requires we assume intent already.
  • emotional abuse (verbal, mental, psychological abuse) - We don't need to specify cognitive, mental, emotional, verbal, perceptual...just say emotional or psychological. Pick one. Those are the correct terms and they are essentially interchangeable.
  • (alone or with a group) - Everything here could be construed as applying alone or in a group. There is no need to specify this.
  • People who identify as having a particular physical or mental disability - This is poor choice of language that seems to endorse "trendy self-diagnosis". We do not try to maintain compatibility with screen readers because people "identify as blind"; we do it because people are blind. It is not necessary or helpful that we try to be so inclusive we disparage people who have actual disabilities beyond what they wrote on their twitter bio. This type of relativistic language will only carry you so far until you get into patent meaninglessness.

That's all for now. Please ping in response. I don't follow Meta particularly closely. GMGtalk 12:11, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Where does it apply?

In the opening section it states that it applies to:

all in-person and virtual events, technical spaces, and all Wikimedia projects and wikis
.
public and semi public interactions

I wish to mirror Vermont's comment above - that this description needs more clarity. This includes fora online which are about Wikimedia things, but not necessarily hosted by WMF infrastructure - such as the popular Telegram channels or facebook groups (assuming the admins of those channels wished it). Or equally, what about in-person events which are operated by a Wikimedia affiliate?

Relatedly, Would separately hosted and independently operating fora be allowed to voluntarily add themselves into the scope of the UCOC? That might include events hosted by a Wikimedia affiliate, or independently operating social media discussion groups? This would mean that those events/fora would gain access to any dispute resolution mechanism and sanctions regime? --Wittylama (talk) 14:36, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, this is indeed the question here. Whether it is about who hosts it, and what is the relationship to WM or WP. If I am rude against a Wikipedian on a mailinglist, or a Facebook group about Wikipedia, does that count here? In general, I do think that an attack on a WM mailing list should be considered when sanctioning a Wikipedian on Wikipedia. But, where to draw the line exactly? What if and the other Wikipedian are boy scouts, and we have a quarrel on a boy scout meeting, will we get banned on Wikipedia? Ziko (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
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