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People new to Wikipedia: Dont use external links in the text body - like this - make links after the sentence or paragraph like this. [1] -St|eve 19:07, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Drunge
Can we really quote Drudge?
He's a well-known conservative that is known for spinning all anti-Bush quotes to make the other side look bad; in this case, making Cindy look like a "flip-flopper".
- Somebody obviously did (not me); I just edited the quote to make it NPOV, in particular removing the phrsae "flip-flopper" which even Druudge didn't use. However, Drudge usually tries to make himself part of any story that damages "the other side".. I think it's clear in this case that he's trying to spin it his way and I see no harm to the truth in making this apparent.--CSTAR 03:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
- The first quote should come from Mrs. Sheehan herself. NPOV should defer to the original subject, no? Sympleko (Συμπλεκω) 16:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- Fine with me. I'm just editing to balance a concerted effort among some anon editors to only include Drudge's distorted quoting of Sheehan. Whether or not Drudge is quoted is only of minor concern to me at least. --CSTAR 16:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The picture
Geeh that picture could like like anybody's family reunion. Is that really G.W. Bush somewhere in there? This picture is useless, but more to the point it probably is a copyright violation since it appears to be pilfered from the web.--CSTAR 17:09, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Exactly, removed. --ThomasK 05:04, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
3RR violation
Anon user:70.33.80.97 has apparently violated the Wikipedia 3 revert rule [[2]] and should be blocked. As an admin I can do this, but will refrain from doing this in good faith, since I have edited the article (and the WP rules on this are very byzantine). If this antisocial behavior continues, I urge other admins to block this user.--CSTAR 17:49, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Minor Edits
Interesting article. I have taken liberty to move some of the sections into chronological order, format some items, correct some spelling and change some things to correct some gramatical errors. We need to find references to credible news sources for some of the sections. I will devote some time to look for those later. Kgrr 21:06, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Removal of important events
I strongly disagree with the removal of important events in the course of this story from this article (because it might offend your political views). Please restore the following three sections. Kgrr 16:18, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
President George W. Bush News Conference
- On 11 August 2005 President George W. Bush, instead of having Cindy Sheehan arrested, he spoke to reporters at his ranch in Crawford, TX and said the following: - - :"I sympathize with Mrs. Sheehan," Bush said. "She feels strongly about her position, and she has every right in the world to say what she believes. This is America. She has a right to her position, and I thought long and hard about her position. I've heard her position from others, which is: Get out of Iraq now. And it would be a mistake for the security of this country and the ability to lay the foundations for peace in the long run if we were to do so." [3] -
- The entire Bush quote you include above is in the article, the last time I checked. The only item that is deleted is the phrase instead of having Cindy Sheehan arrested. There are a lot of "potential occurrences" that can be placed in there, sort of like the potential men in the fictional Wyman's doorway (Quine). We could for instance say something such as On 11 August 2005 President George W. Bush, instead of taking his chainsaw and going on a rampage cutting off the heads of protestors, spoke to reporters.....--CSTAR 16:32, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
==Threat of Arrest== + - On 9 August 2005, David Swanson, a member of the progressive web community Daily Kos, broke the story and confirmed via telephone with Cindy Sheehan that the police had threatened to arrest all protesters on site on Thursday, August 11th, when Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Condolezza Rice will be at the president's nearby ranch. [4] + - + ==Congress== + - At least sixteen congressmen signed a letter on 9 August 2005 requesting that Bush meet with Sheehan and the other relatives of fallen soldiers. The congressmen call on Bush to ensure that no one will be arrested for having a peaceful demonstration. + - + - :"Since the loss of her son, Ms. Sheehan and other families have been committed to helping family members of other soldiers who have been lost in Iraq... For several days now, she has been waiting outside your ranch, hoping to meet with you about the loss of her son and the failure to discover weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Ms. Sheehan has indicated that she is planning to continue her vigil for the entirety of your vacation at your Crawford complex if necessary." + - + - Additional congressmen have signed the letter that reminds the president of the citizens right to petition the government. + - + - Source: Letter to Bush at RawStory.com + -
Open Letter to Mr Bush
I believe this open letter from Mrs. Sheehan to President Bush is also significant. However, I am afraid that the revisionist CSTAR will remove a reference to it. How should I proceed?? Kgrr 16:27, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Cindy Sheehan Thu Aug 11, 4:56 PM ET
This is George Bush’s accountability moment. That’s why I’m here. The mainstream media aren’t holding him accountable. Neither is Congress. So I’m not leaving Crawford until he’s held accountable. It’s ironic, given the attacks leveled at me recently, how some in the media are so quick to scrutinize -- and distort -- the words and actions of a grieving mother but not the words and actions of the president of the United States. ADVERTISEMENT
But now it’s time for him to level with me and with the American people. I think that’s why there’s been such an outpouring of support. This is giving the 61 percent of Americans who feel that the war is wrong something to do -- something that allows their voices to be heard. It’s a way for them to stand up and show that they DO want our troops home, and that they know this war IS a mistake… a mistake they want to see corrected. It’s too late to bring back the people who are already dead, but there are tens of thousands of people still in harm’s way.
There is too much at stake to worry about our own egos. When my son was killed, I had to face the fact that I was somehow also responsible for what happened. Every American that allows this to continue has, to some extent, blood on their hands. Some of us have a little bit, and some of us are soaked in it.
People have asked what it is I want to say to President Bush. Well, my message is a simple one. He’s said that my son -- and the other children we’ve lost -- died for a noble cause. I want to find out what that noble cause is. And I want to ask him: “If it’s such a noble cause, have you asked your daughters to enlist? Have you encouraged them to go take the place of soldiers who are on their third tour of duty?” I also want him to stop using my son’s name to justify the war. The idea that we have to “complete the mission” in Iraq to honor Casey’s sacrifice is, to me, a sacrilege to my son’s name. Besides, does the president any longer even know what “the mission” really is over there?
Casey knew that the war was wrong from the beginning. But he felt it was his duty to go, that his buddies were going, and that he had no choice. The people who send our young, honorable, brave soldiers to die in this war, have no skin in the game. They don’t have any loved ones in harm’s way. As for people like O’Reilly and Hannity and Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh and all the others who are attacking me and parroting the administration line that we must complete the mission there -- they don’t have one thing at stake. They don’t suffer through sleepless nights worrying about their loved ones
Before this all started, I used to think that one person couldn’t make a difference... but now I see that one person who has the backing and support of millions of people can make a huge difference.
That’s why I’m going to be out here until one of three things happens: It’s August 31st and the president’s vacation ends and he leaves Crawford. They take me away in a squad car. Or he finally agrees to speak with me.
If he does, he’d better be prepared for me to hold his feet to the fire. If he starts talking about freedom and democracy -- or about how the war in Iraq is protecting America -- I’m not going to let him get away with it.
Like I said, this is George Bush’s accountability moment. [5]
Response to removal of events
- Whoa, revisionist? Please, sir: (primo) I don't think you know what side I'm on. (secondo) I made the deletions to make the article more to the point and useful as a source of information. I will not delete any reference that is legitimately connected to the story and certainly not the one you cite above. I deleted the section on the threat of arrest, because as far as I know, no arrest occurred on the day it was predicted. --CSTAR 16:48, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
CSTAR, but the threat of arrest of her and other protesters was real. In the town I live in, anti-war protesters are regularly arrested. It's really intimidating. Bush's comments to the press do state that he had to think about the proper response to her protest. He had to think a long time to conclude that she had the right to her opinion. This is a break from his previous reactions of creating "free speech zones" (portable prisons) where people got to say what they wanted but in cages miles away from the event that is being protested. It is important to state that no arrest occurred as predicted. Removing this series of events is definitelyrevisionism in my mind.
Also, I believe your new structure of separating her activism from the Bush response rather than tracking the events in a cronological order for now helps to disperse the exchange between the Sheehan and Bush camps. I don't think this organization helps anyone piece together the story. Kgrr 17:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- Well I put back in the threat of arrest (in a modified form, suitable to the context in which I placed it). However, I think one should also try to present the article in a dispassionate form here on WP, however much sympathy one may feel for Ms Sheehan. If you think chronolgical order is important, start a section called "Chronology".--CSTAR 17:12, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
CSTAR, I will take your suggestion to open a section called Chronology. This will separate more long-term sections from the day-to-day evolution of this story. Kgrr 19:33, 12 August 2005 (UTC)~
Highly political subject
This article is a perfect example of the uselessness of Wikipedia. I mean, don't you all see it? This topic is going on as we speak. People from both sides edit the article coloring it to their particular point of view. At the very least this article should have a permanent POV warning tag attached to it.
- Re: uselessness of Wikipedia. That's easy to fix. Don't read it. Try the creationist [6] wiki instead. Yo might like the stuff on Noah's ark. --CSTAR 20:37, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- So, fearless anonymous user, what should be done with notable contentious topics? Just not cover them? Have a blank article with only a title? Personally, I find it very useful to have Wikipedia as a central collection of known facts and links for extremeely current events. Witness the 2005_london_attacks' up-to-the second (at times) coverage, as well as the 2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake coverage, which had the best summary of available information earlier than any other news source that I could find. But, of course, as the current tag states, this is coverage of a "current event", and the information may be either stale, innaccurate, or vague. That's enough of a warning for me. --NightMonkey 21:56, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
There is a difference between an event like the London attacks and the tsunami which are fairly void of politics to this event which is nothing more than a well-executed political stunt. Surely you would acknowledge that?
- well-executed political stunt. Nice phrase. What else could we apply it to? --CSTAR 23:33, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- It might be a "well-executed political stunt." But, that's besides the point. It's a noteable event, based on major media coverage, public debate, reaction from public figures (the President, Congressmen, etc.), reaction from other veteran families, influence on public opinion polls, etc. Your argument about how this article shows how "useless" Wikipedia is in covering political events is without basis. Of course partisan edits occour (often from anonymous IPs...), even on "non-political" articles, but, usually, they are quickly corrected. If you see something that's factually wrong, non-noteable, heavily biased in style, or other problems covered by Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and have good references, just join in! Wikis are different in that it is a many-to-many medium - the tools for you to fix things are all available to you. And register, please, before editing. :) --NightMonkey 00:49, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Good work, everyone
This seems like a good and factual article. I usually ignore the more controversial and current event topics on Wikipedia, but this does look pretty good. Congradulations to all the good-faith editors. JesseW 21:52, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
It depends on what state you happen to catch it in. It's pretty fluid right now.
Critics
Why was the critics section removed? The fact that there are critics is a fact, uncontroversial, and if stated as and assertion "there are critics, these are the critics and this is what they said" has little bearing on any argument either way.--CSTAR 21:55, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I already reverted it. I guess someone didn't want to hear any criticism.
I think that the criticism is actually more important than the protest. At the end of the day Sheehan is gaining tremendously from the sympathy she receives as the target of the right wing smear machine at full throttle. I strongly suspect that if Rove was not preoccupied with other issues he would be desperately telling the VRWC to lay off as it is ridiculously counterproductive. --Gorgonzilla 04:09, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Including comments from partisan organizations?
Is it just me or does it seem out of place to include various comments from partisan organizations? What do they have to do with Cindy Sheehan besides provide another soapbox for their POV?
- The same argument would apply to delete Drudge's (out of context) quotes, wouldn't it? that is
- What do his comments have to do with Cindy Sheehan besides provide another soapbox for his POV?
--CSTAR 23:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what quotes you are referring to. The letter from her family is a material fact. I don't think Drudge has added any OPINION about this event such as you get from moveon.org.
- The partisan organizations Sheehan belongs to are also material facts as are the political activities associated with Sheehan's protest. --CSTAR 00:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- Although Matt Drudge champions himself as an independent populist, free from the influences of corporations, advertisers, and editors, he is aligned himself with many right-winged pundits - Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity. He claims to be fair and balanced ... just like Fox News. It's well known that he's reckless or careless for publishing erroneous rightwing smears. In fact he's been sued over it. I don't think he's a reliable source. In this article it's important to expose Drudge's disinformation with the appropriate evidence. Kgrr 00:52, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- The correct approach is to read the material, read the response and correct the false Drudge spin. According to Sheehan the aunt who wrote the letter never knew Cassey and she has the support of Cassey's father and three sibblings. So the claim of being attacked by the father's family is essentially a complete misrepresentation. But it is still an important part of the story because the issue being highlighted here is how Bush really treats vets and their families. If they challenge Bush he sicks Drudge onto them. -Unsigned by Gorgonzilla
- Drudge has no credibility. I don't believe he deserves the term 'reporter' or 'journalist' near his name. His website is edited rapidly, and often outright falsehoods and rumors are put forth as 'flashes' and then quickly edited or expunged when they are proven untrue. An example would be in this story, his original title for his 'flash' on the email from Cindy's sister-in-law was "FAMILY OF FALLEN SOLDIER PLEADS: PLEASE STOP, CINDY!" Presumably he was told that it was a bit of a stretch to call an anonymous email allegedly from one aunt a 'family', so he changed it to "FAMILY OF BUSH PROTEST MOM PLEADS: PLEASE STOP...". He also edited the flash story to remove the aunt's misspelled last name without making any notation of that editing. There are other examples, but the point is that Drudge has less credibility and accountability than the average blogger and should be treated primarily as a third party opinion and POV. In this case, 'Cherie Quarterolo' hasn't even confirmed this anonymous email by way of even an on-the-record interview with anyone, the only thing that seems to be confirmed is that Cindy Sheehan did not deny that she had a sister-in-law named Cherie Quarterolo, and she indicated that they were not really a big part of Casey's life; she did not confirm that she has heard any criticism from them. -Kwh 10:31, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
Drudge is a pathetic waste of space, a vicious liar and attack dog for the GOP. But the fact that his is attacking Sheehan, almost certainly on Rove's orders or the orders of his minions IS important, it demonstrates how Bush really treats the famillies of the soldiers killed in his wars.--Gorgonzilla 11:28, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
24.128.88.42 US UNITED STATES, MAINE, KITTERY, COMCAST CABLE COMMUNICATIONS HOLDINGS INC - get an ID before deleting stuff Kgrr 01:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
What the fuck could you possibly be talking about? (anonymous edit by 24.128.88.42 (talk · contribs))
- details on the IP address of an anonymous vandal Kgrr 12:11, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Use of Copyrighted Photo
The photo sheehan.jpg is copyrighted as follows:
© 2000-2002 North Carolina Independent Media Center. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by the NC IMC
It cannot be used according to the upload policy which states:
Please do not upload files under a "non-commercial use only" or "copyrighted, used by permission" licence. Such files will be deleted Kgrr 12:14, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Exactly how is it possible for a photo taken after her son was killed in the invasion of Iraq be (c) 2000-2002?--Gorgonzilla 15:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- Kgrr - as I'm sure you may have noticed, this is one of many pictures posted in comments on that IndyMedia site. Indymedia can only claim copyright on that which is not contributed by other authors. For all you know, the author or a friend thereof uploaded the picture to en.wiki with the intention that it be distributed as PD. The author of the picture's email address is right there, jeff@paterson.net. If you want to be helpful on WP, you can:
- put {{copyvio}} on the image and add it to WP:CP
- send a form letter to Mr. Paterson asking if he gives permission under GFDL or PD.
- If so or not, document the permission or lack thereof.
In the end, that's a better result for Wikipedia than just deleting the content. -Kwh 12:31, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
KWH - I will make an effort to e-mail Jeff Patterson and ask him about the copyright. Kgrr 12:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Criticism Section
LOL!! Look at what the criticisms section has changed to. Right-wing smear? Oh brother.
How laughable it is with Gorgonzilla's profile that he would engage in childish POV vandalism. (anonymous comment left by 24.128.88.42 (talk · contribs))
- Your arguments would carry more weight if you refrained from personal attacks against other editors. Past comments like "Some moron got rid of the POV tag"[7] and your current comments about "laughable" items and "childish" editors do not appear to assume good faith, Please keep discussions civil. Eclipsed 12:35, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- The only critic listed by name in the section is Drudge. The other criticisms are unsourced and come ENTIRELY from the right wing blogosphere. Even Bill O'Rielly and Limbaugh have been carefull to avoid attacking Sheehan directly. Why don't we just label the section 'Criticism by Drudge'? --Gorgonzilla 12:54, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- Although at least one critic[8] argues that O'Rielly did personally attack Sheehan. Eclipsed 12:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- Even so O'Rielly and Drudge are hardly disinterested critics. They are both frequently accused of being prime movers of the Right Wing Smear machine. The critics section should note the partisan nature of the criticism. It should probably also include Malkin's claim that Sheehan is an extreeme lefty (or something like that she is not very cogent)--Gorgonzilla 13:05, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- What's laughable to me is people who can't work on editing an encyclopedia without wearing their political opinions on their sleeve, and bringing in the same-old-same-old "little end vs. big end" debates into every single article. I agree that Gorgonzilla's edit is wanting on POV, but it did add content to the article. If it peeves you off, find a way to save the content and remove the POV. Blogs are for opinionated debate. We are editing an encyclopedia here, so propose a different edit. -Kwh 13:07, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
- The point here in case the anon poster missed it is that the criticism of Sheehan is causing far more damage to the WH than to Sheehan, even though it mostly comes from a tiny number of partisan bloggers rather than the WH itself. I re-edited the piece to name the pundits which is better from the NPOV. I also edited the 'flip-flop' charge which made no sense. --Gorgonzilla 13:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- Actually as I tried to source the criticism it all seems to point back to Drudge, should this simply be 'Criticism by Drudge?'.--Gorgonzilla 13:42, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- I'd suggest just 'Criticism' for now. That there is criticism is a fact, but who/what is the "main source" of criticism is, currently, a theory. Eclipsed 13:51, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- O'Reilly cites Drudge as the source. Of course Drudge does not quote his own sources so even though most of the criticism traces back through Drudge... I edited the comments by O'Reilly to make them more NPOV, originals were straight from left wing wing-nut sites.--Gorgonzilla 14:20, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Err why is it necessary to repeat the 'far left elements' claim by O'Reilly? On 9 August 2005 Bill O'Reilly on his Fox News television show criticized Sheehan as a victim of "far left elements" who are exploiting her for their own purposes. [9] The next day O'Reilly criticized Sheehan for refusing to appear on his show and claims that Sheehan is being exploited by "far left elements".
This article may not conform to the neutral point of view policy
If you want to discuss POV .. let's do it here. Kgrr 12:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
It seems the biggest problem is the number of edits going on with this article currently. One minute it might seem fairly neutral, and the next minute all sorts of POV additions have been made. POV destroyer 00:51, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
700 at Camp
"CINDY SHEEHAN: We had over 700 people come through our camp yesterday, and we are expecting thousands this weekend. It is just so incredibly amazing to me. I think people in America just needed a way to stand up and have their voices count. And for some reason, this is a way for them to do it." [10]
"Before we get to the less than negative things that are happening out at Camp Casey and in the world at large today, over 700 people showed up at the Camp today." [11]
There is plenty of proof ... and plenty of revisionists. You might argue that the actual number reported is far less and simply remove a line. Quote your "official" right-wing news source for your numbers instead of deleting facts as reported from Crawford, TX. There may be a reason why the commercial media may not want the real numbers out.
- I think that it's legitimate to include a claim as fact if there is no competing claim of equal or greater veracity. 705 is put forth as an 'official count' by the organizers so I would say unless someone else is there counting heads (and some blogger saying "I drove by and I saw like 100 people" doesn't cut it) it should stand. But I would point out something interesting; according to Wikipedia, the 2000 Census population of Crawford, Texas is 705. To me that seems an odd coincidence, and makes me wonder if someone said "gee, we've doubled the population of this town" and the figure might have come out of that. Just speculation. -Kwh 13:46, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
I don't like this POV in the article: "12 August 2005 Camp Casey protest draws hundreds of supporters, with a constant presence of just over 100.[24][25][26]." I gave you three references for the fact that there are over 700 protesters there. Please read them. In addition there are about 100 pro-bush protesters there. I gave you a reference for the count of the support our troops camp as well. (This may be the 100 you are referring to). Please restore the cronology with the correct numbers. Kgrr 18:37, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- I listened to Sheehan on "Democracy Now" and it was my impression that her statement meant that over the course of the day 700 people had come through (maybe spending an hour or two at a time), not that there were that many people based at the camp. People are drifting in from all around the country, but most don't have the committment that Sheehan has to sticking it out day and night by the side of the road. My reading of the articles (I read a lot of them from different sources) was that the permanent presence was just over 100 but that hundreds of people came in and out of the camp. If you've got the sources and they're clear about this, then you can feel free to change it back. Whatever appears in the article should be absolutely accurate and factual. Don't assume the edit lowering the crowd estimate was due to POV, as I'm the one who made it and doesn't have anything to do with my personal POV, just making sure (per Wikipedia principles) that the numbers of permanent/temporary visitors to Camp Casey are stated factually. Badagnani 22:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
The numbers are stated factually. I watch Democracy on channel 9415. I have two satellite dishes on my house... so what. Let's say you had a concert or convention, you count the people attending during the day, not the people overnighting there. All three articles quote over 700 people there. Let's stick to the facts instead of your POV. Kgrr 23:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with you on this; if it's made clear that not all the folks are overnighting there (which I had assumed from the way the previous version was worded) then the 700 figure should be used, though all of the three sources given are anti-war ones and have their own POV. I think I had changed 700 to "hundreds" because one of the "mainstream" media sources (not cited by you) gave a figure of 500. I'd like to ask if you might consider kindly laying off the POV insinuations about my edits; you don't know what my POV is and it doesn't come across as very nice. I've listened to Amy every day for years (even though that doesn't matter) ;-) Badagnani 00:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
'Cherie Quarterolo' Letter
The Cherie Quarterolo letter should be properly sourced to Melanie Morgan, apparently a co-host of a conservative radio drive-time show on KSFO in San Francisco (or conservative co-host of a radio drive-time show, or co-host of a drive-time show on the conservative KSFO). Perhaps Drudge was cc:ed on the email. She claims to have verified the source of this email, though no proof is given but another alleged email. There's also other opinion that states that none of the related people mentioned in Casey's obituary from the LA Times actually signed their names to the email.
All in all, it sounds like it can be averred that Cheri[e] Quarterolo, Pat Sheehan's sister, is critical of Cindy, and claims to speak for the entire Sheehan family. -Kwh
Rewriting Chronology
I would dearly love to pitch the whole Chronology heading and rewrite. There's no reason why an encyclopedia needs to include a dramatic blow-by-blow of every letter written and press conference held day-by-day. The news should be on WikiNews, the encyclopedia should be written with historical perspective. Below is my rewrite, keeping only what I see as relevant in the Chronology; please help me edit it and flesh it out:
- KWH Chronology Rewrite
On 4 April 2004 Casey Sheehan was killed in an ambush in Sadr City, a division of Baghdad. He volunteered for a mission to rescue some fellow soldiers trapped in a firefight, although as a Specialist Humvee Mechanic, he was not obligated to.[12] This needs to be fleshed out just a little with how it happened.
On June 18 2004, two months after Casey's death, Sheehan was among grieving military family members who met with US President George W. Bush at Fort Lewis, near Seattle, Washington. [13] Sheehan later claimed that Bush showed disrespect in this meeting by treating it as if it were a "party" and by referring to her as "Mom", and that she was hustled out of his presence without the ability to voice her concerns about the war.
On December 22 2004, Cindy Sheehan wrote a critical letter to the editors of Time Magazine in response to their choice of George W. Bush for "Man of the Year"[14]
On March 19 2005, Cindy Sheehan spoke to three thousand people who converged on Fayetteville, North Carolina to mark two years of war and occupation in Iraq. [15]
On August 4 2005, President Bush began a planned five-week vacation at his Prairie Chapel Ranch in Crawford, Texas. According to Sheehan, she decided to go to the ranch at this time to personally confront the President and demand a second meeting to voice her concerns over the original reasons for the War in Iraq, and also to set a timeline when other troops would come home from Iraq.
Sheehan and a number of supporters arrived in Crawford in buses and cars, setting up a roadside camp directly outside the President's ranch, named "Camp Casey", as well as coordinating with the local Crawford Peace House.
On August 6 2005, the White House sent National security adviser Stephen Hadley and deputy White House chief of staff Joe Hagin to meet Cindy Sheehan. She said... what did Cindy say about this meeting?
At least sixteen congressmen signed a letter on 9 August 2005 asking that Bush meet with Sheehan and the other relatives of fallen soldiers, as well as calling on Bush to ensure that no one will be arrested for having a peaceful demonstration.[16]
A rumor circulated around "Camp Casey" that on 10 August 2005, Sheehan and her companions would be arrested as a threat to national security, owing to the visit of Condoleeza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld to the President's Ranch on 11 August 2005.[17] Ultimately, however, no arrest was made.[18]
-Kwh 14:40, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
- maybe also mention founding of Gold Star Families for Peace organization. (January ??, 2005)[19]. Eclipsed 15:05, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- The problem that I have with thinning down the cronology so soon (not to say it won't happen later) is that small events that happen may seem insignificant at first become important pieces of the puzzle later. I vote not to do this at the moment. If need be, we could create a separate page that captures the progress on the story Cindy Sheehan Timeline and one that reflects the more static article Cindy Sheehan. This has been done with Valerie Plame and Plame scandal timeline. Kgrr 16:06, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- A chronology is more meaningful to The Plame Affair since the relative timing of events, and especially when different people did what, is meaningful to the legalities of what is happening in that case. And I agree, in the case of the Plame affair, that there were certain small details that took on great significance in light of later revelations. I don't think so in this case; it's simply bad writing style to fall back on a chronology as the bare minimum way to represent this info. But now that I look at Plame affair I see that it suffers from similar problems; it's way overweight and the style is tone-deaf.
- Anyways, I wasn't asking for a vote, I was asking for help fleshing out an edit. Can you say what particular omission you are worried about in my edit above and possibly edit it back in? I would say that if your only concern is that every event be kept for possible future significance, then the chronology can be copied to the Talk page as a means of "keeping notes". -Kwh 17:26, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
- The problem that I have with thinning down the cronology so soon (not to say it won't happen later) is that small events that happen may seem insignificant at first become important pieces of the puzzle later. I vote not to do this at the moment. If need be, we could create a separate page that captures the progress on the story Cindy Sheehan Timeline and one that reflects the more static article Cindy Sheehan. This has been done with Valerie Plame and Plame scandal timeline. Kgrr 16:06, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Mission statement
I reverted an edit that supposedly included the "mission statement" of GSFP. That wasn't the mission statement of that organization as can be seen from its website at the link www.gsfp.org ----CSTAR 16:38, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Return of the vandals
The following anonymous ip's are suspected of vandalism: Eclipsed 03:00, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- 70.176.183.170 (talk · contribs) (is this the pages first Hitler reference?[20])
- 24.18.128.52 (talk · contribs) ( 4+ reverts )
- 207.136.9.106 (talk · contribs)
- 68.23.100.34 (talk · contribs)
- 71.112.175.247 (talk · contribs)
- see Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress#Cindy_Sheehan
Quotes
When you make a "Quotes" section, aren't you usually supposed to pick a few of the best ones instead of about 50 of them (comprising almost the entire text of a speech)? Maybe I'm wrong about this. Badagnani 02:49, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
-- Good point. List shortened. TexasDawg 03:21, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, the quotes are too long to read. Some of the quotes all come from the same sources. Simply put the links into the Links section and label something like Text of Speech to whoever. Americanus 03:31, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- I shortened the Quotes section down to just a few short quotes; I put the links to the transcripts of the speeches and articles containing the lengthier quotes in the Links section. When I went to post this edit, the page had been locked. TexasDawg 03:55, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- I think there's way too many there. If someone really loves 'em, send 'em over to wikiquote and use {{wikiquote}}. This article needs to get back on track, the use of headings and subheadings doesn't conform to any outline logic and starts to look like Borges' Chinese Encyclopedia. -Kwh 05:16, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
- So... remove the whole quote section from this article, branch it to wikiquote where it can be worked on separately. Then go on with narrative here, and only include quotes when relevant and notable. Thus: Eclipsed 05:28, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- pick the four or five quotes that really set Cindy Sheehan apart from others saying the same kinds of things for the article. Here are the three that I think are keepers:
- "My first born was killed violently for a neo-con agenda that only benefits a very chosen few in this world."
- "You tell me the truth. You tell me that my son died for oil. You tell me that my son died to make your friends rich. You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East. You tell me that, you don't tell me my son died for freedom and democracy."
- (even this one is too long)
- "Why does Terri Schiavo deserve to live more than my son, Spc. Casey Austin Sheehan?"
- These need to be the short and sweet quotes that define Cindy Sheehan.Kgrr 16:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- Let's move the quote discussion to the Cindy_Sheehan page on wikiquote.Eclipsed 17:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Page protection
I've protected this article due to the request over at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection and the apparent edit warring going on here. Once a consensus is reached on the talk page here over the content in question I'll unprotect the page. -- Longhair | Talk 03:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- I think that the sources of the quotes need to be looked at pretty closely. Some are bordering on being personal web sites or web logs. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources has some information on this. Americanus 04:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- I say pitch the entire chronology heading. The majority of these items are redundant with events described elsewhere, many are not worthy of mention in historical context, and it's extremely poor in style.
- Pitch the majority of subheadings under Background. Stick to one factual narrative telling the reader the story of why Cindy is noteworthy. Her son went to Iraq, her son died, She met with Bush, she became an activist, she went to Crawford, people took notice. Inclusion of various speeches given, people met, etc. is only necessary inasmuch as these facts are exceptional to the general narrative.
- In addition to the one factual narrative, do a heading for Controversy and break it down, case by case. What are the controversies? Cindy allegedly changed her "tune". Who said what? Put forth 1 piece of the best evidence for each side and let the reader decide. Cheri Quarterolo allegedly wrote an email. Cindy is allegedly being controlled/used for political purposes by the far left. Each of these items is currently getting 5-6 sentences and 2-3 grafs. I would put forth the challenge that with good writing, this can be done with 1 graf of 2-3 sentences for each controversy.
- I don't think this subject needs much more treatment than that, unless something really significant happens in the future (e.g. Bush meets with Sheehan, renounces all his policy, resigns and begs for forgiveness). Trim the fat and there's not much room left for POV to hide. As it is, this article would alternately bore hell out of or confuse a reader who came to WP to ask "who is this Cindy Sheehan person I heard about?" -Kwh 05:51, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
- Re-reading the chronological narrative, I see that the chronology probably could indeed be worked into a narrative, with headings discussing the various key points. I don't personally see anything wrong with the chronology as it is (it is definitely not boring, as you imply!) but I can see how some might prefer a narrative. In this case, the chronology did serve its function, almost like a set of "training wheels" for the article, keeping important developments arranged in chronological order, all backed up with sources.
- Your use of the word "pitch," however, seems flippant. If most of the important points could be kept, the reworking could work. I trust you'll keep important content in doing so, as many people have worked hard to include important facts in the chronology.
- Let's have input from other contributors on this. Badagnani 06:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- I think it is important to keep the chronology. Should a mass riot break out, then we will have captured what led up the event. I personally believe that the Crawford camp is potentially a tinderbox that may either errupt into violence or continue peacefully (depending on how it's managed). Eventually I do believe this story will have its part in bringing an end to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Longhair: Please add the current event to the chronology, it's significant: 12-13 August 2005 Demonstrators backing President Bush's war effort arrive at Camp Crawford [21]
Kgrr 16:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Longhair: Please add this curret event to the chronology: 14 August 2005 Shots fired near protesters. [22] A neighboring rancher discharged a rifle several times near the protesters. He said "I shot at a bird, and missed it a while ago." (Who shoots birds with a rifle???)
Fox News Channel
As far a left goes, Fox News goes to the blame game. The blame game...."Some People Say..." As far as that little phrase goes, remember the words of Fox News. "Some People Say!"Cindy Sheehan says Bill O'Reilly's Show is an "Obscenity to Humanity". A grieving mom gets a makeover, now she's a far-leftist, Michael Moore supportive, anti-war mom! Now c'mon, can't we get a right to protest outside (9 miles) of the Crawford ranch (at least say President Bush) made a mistake. Oh, I forgot Fox News is the cheerleader for Bush and his people. Karl Rove is more important than Sheehan's protest. (from User:LILVOKA)
- ummm.... So chopping out all of that POV -- are you saying that "Bill O'Reilly and others are criticising Sheehan"? I think that's already in the article. Also, please sign your comments. Eclipsed 17:39, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
An Outsider's View
As a non-American, it has amazed me to see the amount of derogorative coverage Ms. Sheehan has garnered from the US right-wing media simply for excerciseing her right in wishing to make the country's ultimate public servant, President Bush, accountable for his actions. This, and much of the events of the last several years, leads me to believe that very few people actually know what democracy is or how it works. The leval of venom displayed towards her is utterly appalling, and yet another blow against the image of the USA in the rest of the world. You'd think we'd be used to this kind of thing by now, but just when you think you've hit rock bottom along comes someone with a jackhammer .... Fergananim August 14 2005
Unprotected
Unprotected, as no discussion on talk. All protection seems to be vandal related. Recommend quick-blocking of any vandalism for 1 day periods, without excessive warning --depending on the severtity of the vandalism. -St|eve 02:04, 15 August 2005 (UTC)