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Wikipedia:Naming conventions (subnational entities)

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Proposals

Proposal A

(2005-06?)

Characteristics: For maybe 80% of all entities only three naming formats will be used. Regional disambiguation - inter and inner country - is done the same and is the same as for cities. "X Term" as used for other geographical features e.g. "X Peninsula", "X River", "X Mountains", "X Island", "X Desert", "X Valley" and "X Empire".

Translation of local usage in one English. Not in lowercase for lowercase foreign languages and uppercase for uppercase foreign languages. Or in 2nd letter uppercase because there is a language that writes the second letter uppercase.

No mixture of parenthetical and comma disambig in one article name.

NOTE: This proposal is about all levels of subnational entities. Proposal B is only for first level and has different treatment for other levels.

  1. For article names use
    1. "X" if
      • no disambiguation is needed. eg. Nevada
    2. "X Term" if
      • several things "X" exist. eg. Junín -> Junín Province
      • or: 70% or more of the sister entities use the form "X Term"
        • Note: you may opt for "X (term)", see there
    3. "X Term, Geographic specifier" if
    4. "X (term)" if
    5. "Term X" for entities of anglophone countries if it is predominantly used like this. e.g. Counties of Ireland
    6. "Term of X" if it can be proven that this is much more used in literature than "X Term" or "X Term" really is wrong.
  2. avoid:
    1. "X term", use "X (term)" or "X Term"
    2. having things like "Saint George (parish)", "Saint George Parish", "Parish of Saint George" all at the same time.

Proposal B

Note: In this proposal, "X" refers to the name of the entity (i.e. Nevada, Fermanagh) and "Term" refers to the type (i.e. state, county). "Term" means it's capitalized, "term" mean it's in lower case. This proposal is primarily for first-level divisions; second-level and below can be handled similarly, with a few changes. I'd prefer to keep this vote to just first-level for now.

  1. Use local/official terminology for the name, short form if possible.
    • Examples:
      • If it is referred only by its short form, use that. Example: Nevada.
      • If it is referred to by "X Term", then use that. Example: Kagoshima Prefecture.
      • If it is referred to by "X term", then use that. Example: Comayagua department.
      • If it is referred to by "Term of X", then use that. Example: Province of Rome.
  2. If there is any confusion whatsoever, go with "X" if possible, or "X Term" if not, until locals or someone familiar with the country can offer a correct version. This is the least offensive choice, and is considered a temporary situation. See below for exceptions where "X Term" is preferred above all other formats.
    • The testimony of locals and people familiar with the country should be considered above Google evidence - Google is very likely to have many results from news organizations, which may be just as ignorant as naming standards as we are.
  3. If there is any naming conflict at all, disambiguate with parentheses, not a comma.
    • Disambiguate with "(country)" (i.e. "(Egypt)"), or "(term)" (i.e. "(state)"), or if required, "(country entity)" (i.e. "(Angolan province)"). The first usage is preferred, the second usage is useful if, say, there is a county named that, and a river named that, and a province named that. The third is useful if there is any confusion between different countries.
      • This is better than "Name, Country" (i.e. "Georgia, United States" or "Amazonas, Brazil") because we almost never use a country like that except for cities. The name of the entity is Georgia; to add something after the comma implies that's part of the name, or is commonly referred to that by the people of that country. It also makes it possible to use the pipe trick.
  4. Use the official English name, both for the entity and its type (province, oblast, etc).
    • Use the English name if there is a official translation. If, for example, a country has "oblasts" but its government officially translates them as "republics", then we should use "republic".
  5. If there is not a official translation, then a translation or obvious cognate should be used, until we can find a better solution.
  6. If there is any disagreement, or confusion, a notice should be posted on the main list page (i.e. Provinces of Pakistan, States of India) that asks for a discussion on the move, and possibly a vote and notice on Wikipedia:Requested moves.
  7. Be standard within the country above all else. Don't have one article at "X Term" and another at "X". If most of the articles are at "X", then the remainder should be at "X (term)" or what not. Under no circumstances should "X" and "X Term" coexist.

The Cliff's Notes version: Respect for local short naming standards; consistency within each country; disambiguate with parentheses rather than commas; fits most existing naming standards; locals know more than we or Google do.

Elaborations to the above that should always lead to "X Term" usage or "Term of X" usage, unless we are informed differently by people who know better: (Minor in most cases, just mentioned as a general guideline):

  • If the term is an adjective and not a name, go with "X Term". The reasoning behind this is, if you're dealing with a name (i.e. Santa Rosa), then that's the name of the province. However, when you're dealing with an adjective (i.e. Somali, Central, Northeastern), then that's more of a description of the province, rather than a name. If the bulk of a nation's divisions are adjectival, then all of the divisions should probably be moved to that form; see Sri Lanka, which is mostly adjectival but has two "named" ones, which should stay at "X Province" for consistency within the country.
  • Furthermore, if all or a huge majority of the divisions in a country take their name from their central town, the style "X Term" should be used. Example: Ukraine, where you have "X Oblast", which is centered around the city named "X". In this case, the oblast is named after the city, so the city should get top billing, and the oblast should be named accordingly. This style seems better than "X (oblast)" because it is literally the oblast OF that city. (See also Italy; there are areas like the Province of Rome. In that case, that name is preferred to "Rome Province" because it's the province centered around Rome; in Italian, it's the province OF Rome. It exists because Rome does. It's not simply a province NAMED Rome. These usages will of course vary from country to country)
  • For the parishes of the various island nations of the Atlantic and Caribbean: These nations mostly have a common heritage and share so many similar names (There are several Saint Georges, for example) that a standard naming and disambiguation style should be used. This decision is unlikely to be offense to anyone, since these divisions are mostly irrelevant; in some cases, not even the census takers care about them anymore.


Comparison

X is a name, like "Orange" or "Nevada". Term is term for subnational entities, e.g. state, province, county. Y is a higher level division with respect to X. Example: X Term, Y could be "Orange County, Florida"

Naming variants Proposal A Proposal B
X yes yes
X Term yes yes
X (term) yes yes
X term no yes
X Term, Y yes yes
X Term, Y, Country yes no
X Term, Y (Country) no yes
X, Country yes (for cities, towns, villages) yes (?)
X (Country) no yes
X (somelandian province) no yes
X, Y (Country) no yes
X, Y, Country yes no
Term of X very rare yes
Sum 6/7 10
Long name Proposal A Proposal B
State of Georgia, United States of America Georgia (U.S. state)
[per rule 4] 		Georgia (U.S. state)
[per rule 3, also fits current usage by sizable U.S. wikipedian population]
The Punjab state in India Punjab State
[per rule 2] or
Punjab (state)
[per rule 4] 		Punjab (Indian state) or Punjab (state),
depending on discussion on talk page [per rule 3]
Freestate of Bremen, Germany Bremen (state) Bremen (state)
Province of Panjshir in Afghanistan Panjshir Province "Panjshir Province" or "Panjshir province" or "Panjshir";
someone familiar with the country has indicated the second is more proper, but this could be handled with a vote.
State of Amazonas in Brazil Amazonas State, Brazil
[per rule 3] 		Amazonas (Brazilian state)
[per rule 3]
State of Amazonas in Venezuela Amazonas State, Venezuela
[per rule 3] 		Amazonas State (Venezuela) [The current format for Venezuelan states seems to be "X State", so this needs only be disambiguated with the country. This could be confirmed on the talk page though.]
Provincia di Roma, Italy Rome Province
it could not be proven that this version is un-english 		Province of Rome
[per rule 2; someone familiar with the country has stated "Rome Province" is incorrect on the appropriate talk page]
Departament of Comayagua in Honduras Comayagua Department
it could not be proven that this version is wrong english. Someone thought lowercase is needed because spanish has lowercase, but then it is unspanish nevertheless because hispanics don't use this word order. 		Comayagua department
[per rule 2; someone familiar with the country has stated this is more correct on the appropriate talk page]
Prefecture of Kagoshima Kagoshima Prefecture Kagoshima Prefecture
[per rules 1, 4, and general deferrence to the large existing Japanese wikipedian population]
The Central Governorate of Bahrain Central Governorate Central Governorate
[per rule 4; official name]
Littoral Department in Benin
(There are other Littorals in the world) 		Littoral Department or Littoral Department
[per rule 3] "X" is not possible because other "X" exist and beside one, the whole set needs disambiguation. 		Littoral (department) or Littoral (Benin)
[This is done because, at present, we don't have anyone from Benin yet to tell us what the proper format is, so "X" is desired if possible, perhaps a vote should be taken on the appropriate page]


Voting

I added this section at 08:59, August 15, 2005 (UTC); I'm not sure if this is the proper method, but notice HAS been posted on both VP:Policy and RFC. --Golbez 08:59, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Support Proposal A

Support Proposal B

Support neither; please give reason

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