A very old story
This text was constructed by the Indian scholar S.K. Sen, and it is supposed to be a proto-Sanskrit text based on old Indic *PIE roots. I (sort of) translated it hastily into Ancient Greek, taking a liberty or two (i.e. using ρηξ, a Latin-derived Byzantine neologism, because the probaby pre-Greek βασιλεύς has supplanted the IE-derived equivalent). Please feel free to contribute, especially in the items I have question-marked:
To réecs éhest. So nputlos éhest. So réecs súhnum éwelt.
Πο(τέ) Ρηξ ήτο. Ος άπαις(?) ήτο. Ο ρήξ υιόν εβούλετο.
Once there was a king. He was childless. The king wanted a son.
Só tóso cceutérm prcscet: “Súhnus moi jnhyotaam!”
Ος τούτου χυτήρα ηρώτα (?): "Υιός μοι γένοιτο!"
He asked his priest: “May a son be born to me!”
So cceutéer tom réejm éweuqet: “Ihgeswo deiwóm Wérunom”.
Ο χυτήρ τωι ρήγαι είπε: "Ίκεσο θεόν Ουρανόν"
The priest said to the king: “Pray to the god Varuna”.
So réecs deiwóm Werunom húpo-sesore nu deiwóm ihgeto.
Ο ρήξ θεόν Ουρανόν υφεώρα(?) νυν θέον ίκετο.
The king approached the god Varuna to pray now to the god.
“Cluttí moi, phter Werune!”
"Κλύθι μοι, Πάτερ Ουρανέ!"
“Hear me, father Varuna!”
Deiwós Wérunos kmta diwós égweht.
Θεός Ουρανός κατά δίος ήκε.
The god Varuna came down from heaven.
“Qíd welsi?” “Wélmi súhnum.”
"Τι βούλεσαι?" "Βούλομαι υιόν"
“What do you want?” “I want a son.”
“Tód héstu”, wéuqet loukós deiwos Werunos.
"Τούτο έστω", είπε λευκός θεός Ουρανός.
“Let this be so”, said the bright god Varuna.
Reejós pótnih súhnum gegonhe.
Ρηγός πότνια υιόν γέγονε.
The king’s lady bore a son.
According to the Wikipedia article on "Uranus": 'Identification of the name Uranous with Indian Varuna is widely rejected. The most probably etymology is from Proto-Greek *vorsanos, from a PIE root *vers "to moisten".' Although I don't know what you gain by comparing rex, a Latin word introduced into Greek thousands of years after its split from what would become Sanskrit, and réecs, the translation is striking and well done. As others say below, Do it in Proto-Greek! --Nick G
IMHO this is about 50% intelligible by any Greek and almost fully intelligible to an educated Greek Chronographos 8 July 2005 15:00 (UTC)
- very nice! now do it in Proto-Greek (mainly inserting the labiovelars and the spirants). The king could be the wanaks (in Sanskrit, the vanij). dab (ᛏ) 8 July 2005 15:13 (UTC)
- Hey, Mr. Lazy Boy, am I to do everything around here? :-P Chronographos 8 July 2005 15:18 (UTC)
Hey, what do you know, I can read ancient Greek (of course, the translations help). Decius 8 July 2005 15:17 (UTC)
- I am not at all sure about nputlos, húpo-sesore and prcscet. I may have also mixed up some Datives and Accusatives. The rest was pretty darn straightforward - including χυτήρα = (libation) pourer = priest. Chronographos 8 July 2005 15:24 (UTC)
According to my references, ancient Greek boulomai (boule) is from PIE *gwel, 'to throw, reach', while the PIE equivalent is from PIE *wel, 'to wish, will'. Different roots, but equivalent form and meaning. Decius 8 July 2005 15:45 (UTC)
- I think to reach fits just fine, "What to reach?" still makes sense, despite being gramatically incorrect. -- HawkeyE 06:25, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
- the point is that the words are supposed to be cognates, which in this case they are not. dab (ᛏ) 07:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- True. I'm afraid this will have to stand as license poetique. Chronographos 10:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- the point is that the words are supposed to be cognates, which in this case they are not. dab (ᛏ) 07:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
New text
I agree with you, dab, it's not well done at all. Of course I see the point in including it, if it's the only such reconstruction by an known scholar. Still I'd dare say you'd do a better job reconstructing it yourself. Chronographos 10:30, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- of course, but it would need to be a published reconstruction, I suppose; in any case, the point of including it is to show the evolution of our understanding of Proto-Greek. Schwyzer couldn't have done any better in 1939. dab (ᛏ) 10:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Good point. Chronographos 10:43, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Athenaioi we would have to reconstruct as Astanwasyoi, but even that is weird, since the Proto-Greeks would not have had any Luwian loanwords (not to mention the paradoxon of addressing Proto-Greeks who have not even set foot on the Greek peninsula as Athenians :) -- maybe we should something Homeric to project back, rather. OR, I know -- since I have just been picking on Nixer over at Talk:Proto-Indo-European_language for inserting his own (re)constructions without explanation. dab (ᛏ) 11:07, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Where did you read that Athana was a Luwian loan? I was under the impression that it was a non-PIE substrate loan. Chronographos 13:25, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- we cannot be certain, of course, but see the etymology at Athena. I would not be surprised, incidentially, if Luwian had a strong influence, at least, on late Eteocretan. dab (ᛏ) 13:58, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Not very convincing. Sounds even less plausible than the "N'eith" etymology in Bernal's "Black Athena". Chronographos 14:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- we cannot be certain, of course, but see the etymology at Athena. I would not be surprised, incidentially, if Luwian had a strong influence, at least, on late Eteocretan. dab (ᛏ) 13:58, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Where did you read that Athana was a Luwian loan? I was under the impression that it was a non-PIE substrate loan. Chronographos 13:25, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Athenaioi we would have to reconstruct as Astanwasyoi, but even that is weird, since the Proto-Greeks would not have had any Luwian loanwords (not to mention the paradoxon of addressing Proto-Greeks who have not even set foot on the Greek peninsula as Athenians :) -- maybe we should something Homeric to project back, rather. OR, I know -- since I have just been picking on Nixer over at Talk:Proto-Indo-European_language for inserting his own (re)constructions without explanation. dab (ᛏ) 11:07, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Good point. Chronographos 10:43, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- I was wondering about that Luwian etymology myself: how strong is this Luwian etymology, what is the evidence for it, etc. From what I know, classical Athena was not associated with the sun in any notable manner (as the Luwian etymology would have it). Pre-classical, I would need to see the evidence. ---Decius 14:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- There is no evidence, it's etymology by lack of evidence: She was around since the Mycenaean times at least, she has no known equivalent in IE theology (i.e. wise warrior virgin daughter of Dyeus Piter), no apparent IE etymology, therefore she must have been a loan (by a process of elimination) Chronographos 14:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
you could help me out with the Afrocentrists over at Talk:Ancient Egypt, 'graphe :) Anyway, if it's not in Melchert, I have my doubts the astanu etymology has any basis at all; we should probably remove it. But how about astaniya "to cast spells" -> *astana "witch"? The owl gives her away, there is more of a connection to Lilitu than to Sowilo I guess... damn, OR again :)dab (ᛏ) 14:47, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Afrocentrists? Oh, noooooo, you poor thing .... :-P Chronographos 14:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- just don't repeat the "Decius" mistake and blunder over there mockingly; I think he is rather sensitive, and we are just beginning to get along :P dab (ᛏ) 15:03, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Afrocentrists? Oh, noooooo, you poor thing .... :-P Chronographos 14:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- In the case of Talk:Pelasgians, it was no blunder. From the way the etymology is phrased in Athena, I suspect the information was taken from this site [http://www.anistor.co.hol.gr/english/enback/e023, which is not a good site to take etymologies from. ---Decius 15:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
interesting page; unfortunately, he translates simple A-ta-no-dju-wa-ja "divine Athena" as "sun goddess", and afaics there is no real evidence for the "Sun" connection. I was referring to Xg's mistake of losing your favour, in his early days on WP, btw, not your own behaviour vs. assorted crackpots on Pelasgians :) dab (ᛏ) 15:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)