Talk:Ray Nagin
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Opening commentary
Criticism from Nagin of others and criticism of Nagin by others is proper here, just as criticism by and criticism of is proper in all bios. Anything less is a violation of Wiki's NPOV requirement. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.82 19:59, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Correcting Revision by 168.20.196.197 made w/o comment here on the discussion page. As always, if you want to make a change explain why you have made the change on this page and with comment in the edit summary. Reverted to previous correct version. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.88 00:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Needed to restore the previous version six times. 168.20.196.197's bad ettiquate of not explaining changes here is bordering on bad faith. His statement Nagin "was not afraid to tell the truth" is very POV. His statement "a better leader" was not only POV, it was out of place in this article on Nagin. Just the facts on Nagin, 168.20.196.197. Thanks. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.88 01:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Added the criticism of Nagin's performance, or lack thereof, in his responsibility to keep local order and properly equip and staff his designated evacuation centers. Just as his criticism of others is worthy of inclusion the criticism of the mayor is equally worthy of inclusion. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.87 23:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
- Long John Silver (and 168.20.196.197) please read WP:3RR --Kennyisinvisible 02:26, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
This guy is awesome. He tells it like it is. I like that he cuts through all the B.S. of the government and focuses on people. Bush is saying the results aren't acceptable, Nagin is experiencing this forst hand. As mayor of the city he needs to lead and I think he's doing a great job. People are dying and government organizations keep telling people it will be a few more days.User: 205.142.176.20
- awesome? the guy dropped the ball bigtime, he did absolutely nothing in the runup to this and there definately was some advance warning. Yet he prepared nothing, absolutely nothing. --82.156.49.1 00:08, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I think that Wikipedia ought to ashamed for having the audacity to say that Mayor Nagin is alienating himself by SPEAKING THE TRUTH about the slowness and absolute ridiculousness with reference to the time it is taking to get some relief in New Orleans. Get a grip! Then to have the nerve to compare him to Rudy Guliani during 9/11. The President was in New York almost immediatley following the World-Trade center Disaster and you did not see people sitting and waiting for help to arrive for days, help came immediatley. It is totally unacceptable that we have armed forces train to set up shop in the middle of the jungle if neccessary to provide communication, temporary hospitals and basic needs, yet right here in an American city it has taken a least a week! To make matters worst, 9/11 was not anticipated, Katrina however and the vulnerablility of New Orleans was talked about days before the storm took place. THERE WAS TIME TO PREPARE and the American governmnet is failing miserably. Government officials are trying to politically correct and saying what they feel people want to hear and Nagin, not being a lifelong politician is being upfront and honest and I guess that offends some people. He is passionate because this is his hometown, his people and this is in fact UNACCEPTABLE! There is no reason that FEMA should ot have had officials on site in the Superdome and Convention Center with several bottles of water, food, medical staff, and a seperate room to place dead bodies. I have always felt that I could count on Wikipedia for factual information however, the bias in the last few paragraphs of Ray Nagin's bio is so obvious and that personal opinion has no place on the site.User:65.1.210.92
- Umm, not that any of this is too relevant to the article... but, the president is Commander in Chief. He can take military action against agressors (as he did in tracking down WTC attackers), he can't exactly do anything of the same nature becuase of natural disasters. We have FEMA for a reason. Also, it is easier to bring help into NYC than an underwater New Orleans. I personally think there are many people who have been alienated for speaking the truth, but that has nothing to do with neutrality. If this is your political views then that is fine, however, if you are trying to make them into wikipedia article writing policy I suggest... that you don't. gren グレン 16:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
- I'd swear I'm the only person on the planet who remembers this, but on September 11 Bush was cowering away in Louisiana and Nebraska getting whisked to safety, just occasionally popping his head onto the tv screen to say "We'll get the bad guys", while Pataki and Giuliani actually stayed on the scene and directed the emergency response. I'm no supporter of either of those two politically, but they did prove their worth that day. Bush cut a sorry figure by comparison. (Sorry, this is increasingly irrelevant to Ray Nagin!) QuartierLatin 1968 19:20, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm wondering what the Posse Comitaus Act has do with anything, considering that there's a dearth of articles that include Governor Blanco's formal request for federal assistance and admittance that recovery efforts were beyond the ability of the state government on 8/27. Also, the quote included from President Bush, is stated to to be "returning Nagin's criticism". I think this is unsubstantiated, and no mainstream media which covered the president's speech implies that President Bush in any blamed the state government of New Orleans. In fact, most write it as though the president conceded that federal relief efforts were not enough. Lastly, I don't see why the ridiculous, unsubstantiated claim about the Nagin not using schoolbuses to save people is still here, supported by a picture, of all things, of schoolbuses that don't even belong to the city. --Jentizzle 18:15, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- If you had read the linked article on the Posse Comitatus Act you would have seen the National Guard is under the Governor's control until the Governor, Kathleen Blanco in this case, releases them. Under the Governor's control the National Guard and the city's first responders could not put down the lawlessness that kept FEMA, Red Cross and Salvation Army at bay. Once Blanco released the National Guard to General Honore on September 2nd the lawlessness was put down. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
It's inaccurate to make an absurdly generalized statement like "the lawlessness was put down" on September 2nd when many news anchorpeople and eyewitnesses reporting the same day claim the opposite. The Posse Comitaus Act is still COMPLETELY irrelevant, since Governor Blanco formally requested federal assistance August 27, and furthermore, you cannot produce a source which supports the claim that she kept "FEMA, Red Cross and Salvation Army at bay". Until you do, none of this belongs in the article. --Jentizzle 19:03, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Furious
The article keeps saying he is making "furious" remarks. I think some of these remarks should be quoted, like the legendary "Pardon my French, but I'm pissed" comment. Mike H (Talking is hot) 20:08, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
I attempted to add a link to the audio (provided by WWL 870) of host Garland Robinette's interview with Mayor Nagin, but it seems to have been expunged. The link I inserted was obtained from WWL's Audio Blog. Was this considered POV, or was the edit not accepted because the page is under POV review? While CNN's transcript includes his words, the audio, if deemed an acceptable/legal link communicates quite a bit more empotional content, which is factual, is it not? Ddabbs 20:20, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Facts vs. Judgements
Folks,
This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, a compendium of facts. Please do not make value judgements, even via implication, and especially not of current events, within entries. (That's what the discussion area is for.) The devastation and aftermath of Hurrciane Katrina is not the same as the devastation and aftermath of 9/11. When the towers fell, that was the worst of the damage, and as bad as it was, it got no worse. At the time of this writing, conditions in New Orleans have grown steadily worse in the (four?) days since Katrina hit. Comparisons to Rudolph Juliani are not helpful. Let's review Nagin's actions and words later, when we're not so close to the actual crisis.
That said, have some mercy on Mayor Nagin and his comments. Bear in mind that he's very, very tired and extremely frustrated at what has to be at this point one of the hardest jobs in the country right now. He knows that no matter what happens, he will get blamed for it; nonetheless he's refusing to give up the lives of those people still stranded. Imagine if you were in his shoes, how would you react? How would you bear up under that kind of pressure? On a matter of principle, I loathe nearly all politicians, but this guy's really starting to grow on me.
FYI, I've stripped out that last, overtly political nasty paragraph. If someone cares to replace it with today's *facts* about Nagin, feel free.
67.34.192.152 20:18, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The fact is Nagin made these comments. It is not a value judgement to report the statement he made. It is a statement of fact. Similarly, reporting criticism of the mayor is also a statement of fact. Suppression of relevant facts in an attempt to provide a neutral judgement is improper. Should the article on Hitler be rewritten because he was under strain? I don't think so. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.87 23:22, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
There have been more details added since I deleted the incendiary paragraph. These are factual in nature, I can't dispute them. I won't dispute that he's made angry comments; he most certainly did. The portions that I deleted made political, editorial comment, comparing Nagin post Katrina to Juliani post 9/11. That's not the function of an encyclopedia, that's the function of a news magazine, or more hopefully, for serious study. Save it for your blog. If the facts of history are clear enough, judgements should be straightforward, viewed through the lens of passing time. This brings me to your Hitler comment; it's a rather cogent point, but there's a big distinction. There's no new information about Hitler lately; if there were, I would certainly support changes to his article.
Let me make things a little clearer. I would likewise and for the same reason be disturbed if the article stated how wonderful a job he is doing down there. I personally think he's doing a good job, but to include such a value judgement in a factual, encylopedic entry, would be irresponsible. I'd delete it if I saw it. There are different types of writing for different purposes; while the nature of Wikipedia allows on-the-fly changes to reflect real world events, it would be a mistake to believe that this makes it either a news site, and especially not a soap box for popular (or even not so popular) opinion. Does that make sense? Thanks for the response. 68.158.160.176 06:27, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, and we seem to be in agreement with what should be included in this article. I didn't see the section comparing Giuliani's post 9/11 response to Nagin's but acknowledge it would be difficult to write such a section without injecting POV. The statement 'Nagin has been criticized over no MRE's or anti-biotics at the Superdome' is fact. The statement 'Nagin is incompetent for his poor disaster planning reflected at the Superdome and elsewhere' is analysis and opinion. You won't see any of the latter type statement from me nomatter how correct I hold it to be. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.122 17:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I would really like to see sources which support the claim that the federal assistance was only requested on September 2. There's really nothing that backs it up, and there are certainly a lot of newspaper articles out there from August 28 that state that both the governor and mayor requested federal assistance that very day.--Jentizzle 08:59, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Found a source for the opposing claim, that federal assistance was requested well before September 2nd. A press release from Governor Blanco's site dated August 27, 2005 includes the full text of her request to president, asking him not only to declare a state of emergency in Louisiana, but to provide federal assistance as she believed the incident to be of "such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments" [1]. --Jentizzle 10:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- No you didn't. You found an article that has Blanco requesting President Bush declare an "expedited disaster zone" ahead of the storm. This term has no meaning under law. But President Bush did declare Louisiana a "disaster zone" ahead of the storm and pre-position supplies that could not be distributed until Blanco made her formal request under the Posse Comitatus Act. She made that request on September 2nd. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 19:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Reference, please. No sources of any journalistic credibility have been supplied which state that either the governor or the mayor of New Orleans requested federal assistance as late as September 2. --Jentizzle 19:05, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Here you go, from Blanco's own website where she makes here specific request of President Bush on September 2, 2005. [2] Your extreme partisanship is transparant. The letter reads:
"Date: 9/2/2005
Contact:Denise Bottcher or Roderick Hawkins at 225-342-9037
Letter from Governor Blanco to President Bush
September 2, 2005
The President The White House Washington, D.C.
Dear Mr. President:
Let me first thank you for your leadership during this unprecedented natural disaster. Your pledge of assistance for the initial and long-term recovery efforts is reflective of the tremendous outpouring of support by the citizens of our great country. Although we have been dealt a devastating blow, I can assure you Louisiana will recover, rebuild, and restore our communities.
Based on our initial assessment, I have previously requested significant federal support to include: an additional 40,000 troops; trailers of water, ice and food; commercial buses; base camps; staging areas; amphibious personnel carriers; deployable morgues; urban search and rescue teams; airlift; temporary housing; and communications systems. Even if these initial requests had been fully honored, these assets would not be sufficient to address our critical, immediate needs. Additional assistance requirements for the federal government are outlined below. As we continue to assess our needs, I will ensure you receive our updated requirements.
I request the expeditious return of the Headquarters of the 256th Brigade Combat Team as they have completed their mission in the Iraqi theatre of operations and they are urgently needed here at home. I request that you remission this unit to Louisiana where they will become part of the recovery efforts in their home state. As the remainder of the Brigade returns, I request that they be missioned by the Department of Defense to assist civil authorities in Hurricane Katrina recovery operations in Louisiana.
To increase the responsiveness of our humanitarian relief operations, FEMA should establish a second Operational Staging Base (OSB) in Baton Rouge. Currently we have only one OSB in Pineville. Establishment of a second OSB will cut in half the response time to our most affected parishes. This will raise our local distribution points from 21 to 35, significantly increasing our support to the neediest citizens. Our current requirement for water, ice and MREs is 100 trucks of each per day; our requirement will increase to 200 trucks of each per day when we increase local distribution points.
Our communications grid was devastated and we need significant assistance in restoring governmental communications. The reestablishment of cell phone coverage and public safety networks is necessary to establish communications among governmental officials at all levels and among response agencies. The radio system that is currently operational in the greater New Orleans area was designed to support 800 users; there are currently 2500 users. To address the radio communications requirements, we need additional frequencies: 25 800-MHz trunking repeaters, tower crews, 1000 portable radios, three hundred-foot tower trailers, and additional BellSouth and Motorola staff. I also require additional staffed mobile command centers that provide satellite uplink to support additional voice and data needs at public safety and governmental sites.
I want aerial and ground firefighting support to address the growing danger of fire. This support should include both equipment and trained personnel.
A critical element of our military response is equipment, particularly vehicles. As military units are flown in to assist us in our recovery efforts, I request a fleet of military vehicles that will remain in the affected areas. Therefore, I am requesting access to military trucks, HMMWVs and other vehicles. Fort Polk, Louisiana, has a prepositioned fleet of military vehicles that could be accessed very quickly; however, there may be other sources that may be available quicker.
I request 175 generators to enable the parishes to provide electricity for critical local operations and state offices to better support affected citizens. As I review this requirement with our parishes, this number will undoubtedly increase. I need additional diesel fuel supplies.
Preventative health is a priority to prevent the spread of disease. Our state medical team is currently assessing these requirements; I need considerable personnel, equipment, drugs, vaccines and other medical supplies.
We have experienced a significant loss of life and as we transition from our initial emphasis on search and rescue, we require assistance with mortuary affairs. It is my pledge to the citizens of Louisiana that we will conduct this task with as much dignity as possible; to accomplish this I need federal assets to work closely with state and local officials.
Livestock and other animals were also victims of this tragic storm. I need assistance to deal with injured animals and also with animal remains.
Mr. President, only your personal involvement will ensure the immediate delivery of federal assets needed to save lives that are in jeopardy hour by hour. I know you will take the actions necessary to make this happen. As the recovery efforts continue, I will provide you a reassessment of needs. Again, thank you for your support of the citizens of Louisiana.
Sincerely,
Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor
State of Louisiana"
How does this take precedence as a "formal request" for federal assistance over the governor's request on August 27? Perhaps I'm actually woefully misinformed, and SOMEONE can explain how the request made August 27 restricted federal efforts? Keeping FEMA "at bay"? Since you bothered to bold the sentence where the 256th Brigade Combat Team is called for, I assume you take this to be something other than a request for ADDITIONAL assistance. --Jentizzle 19:50, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
How is this letter of request to the President from the Governor outlining specifics and requesting her national guard be placed under the control of the Department of Defense as required under the Posse Comitatus Act anything but a formal request? Can you show us where else the Governess requested the President place her National Guard under DoD control as required under Federal Law? Can you tell us where else she requested any specific other than the non-existant (under law) "expedited disaster zone" that had already been accomplished? Can you show us how the Nagin and Blanco had brought civil order to a state where FEMA could deliver services before the Governess turned over control of her National Guard to the DoD? As to your question, you apparantly still have your head in the sand over the Posse Comitatus Act. All you need to is follow the link I've provided numerous times to correct that. --Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 20:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
How is your comment "correcting partisan lies" anything more than questions in response to questions? Furthermore, I've already apologized for the accidental (may have been intentional on your part) edits regarding the Posse Comitataus Act which resulted out the fact that you and I were making edits to the article at the same time. If I indeed removed it, it was accidental.
However, you ARE NOT ANSWERING my above question about how the request made September 2nd is anything but a request for additional assistance. I never disputed whether or not this second request was formal, and I have no idea why you bothered to pick up on that. By "taking precedence" over the first request, I meant that you implied that the first request was NOT formal, and restricted FEMA and/or other federal authorities in some way. Otherwise I don't understand why you keep removing information about this request being sent to President Bush, in addition to a later request for additional support September 2.
With regard to your irrelevant remarks about the governor of mayor of New Orleans bringing "civil order," I would only ask why supplies could not have been airlifted. And I could care less that you believe yourself a "moderate". --Jentizzle 20:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- You've gotta be kidding. Have you read the Posse Comitatus Act article? The President can't move troops into a state without the Governor's request. Period. FEMA cannot deliver relief without civil order. Period. The first request was a formal request for a non-existant entity under law. Hence the request is invalid. It would be like my asking you for a one-eyed one eared flying purple people eater. I could make that request formal in a letter, but the request would be moot since there is no such thing. The only real request President Bush ever received from Blanco was delivered on September 2, 2005. As for "airlifting" supplies I refer you to news reports August 31, 2005 describing on looters shooting at helicopters attempting to land near the Superdome. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 20:24, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Telling it like it is
You gotta give the guy credit for being truthful. I really get the impression that he is working as hard as he can on this issue at this time. It would be good to have more politicians like this.
If he were honest he would have explained why as mayor he failed to equip his designated evacuation point with cots, MRE's, water or medication. Cheers. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.88 02:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Controversial?
"...Nagin continued his controversial criticism of authorities"
I haven't heard any controversy over his statements. Most people seem to think he's pissed off and rightly so. --Kennyisinvisible 22:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The problem that, like you, few people have heard the other side of this story - criticism of the mayor - is why I added the facts about his problems in equipping his designated evacuation center and keeping local order. Cheers. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.87 23:25, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Source for last paragraph?
Could someone give us a source for that last paragraph? All we have is a jpeg file of... something.
I've pasted the paragraph below, and am moving it to this talk page till we can get some sort of backing for this.
This is an amalgam of criticism of the mayor in the NY Post, by the FEMA director, by Rep. Billy Tauzan(R-LA) and by the New Orleans Times-Picayune. There is also a great deal of criticism of the Governor but it doen't belong here. It belongs in the article on Blanco. I'm re-adding the paragraph. The last image is a link that came from the Associated Press and is available with a caption here http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015 . The link has been changed to the version with caption for those who will not see. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.122 16:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
- That's all well and good, but a source was what I'm looking for. If you can find a link to the New York Post article, the New Orleans Picayune article, or quotes from the FEMA director or Tauzan, great. Until then, I'm removing the paragraph. Otherwise, it's just weasel words.
Lt Gen Russel Honore, Commander Joint Katrina Task Force, FoxNews 13:43 Eastern Time September 3, 2005 Just reconfirmed all that was here including the lack of radios. I'm re-adding the paragraph. If you want the transcript I'm sure Burrell's will sell it to you. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.122 17:45, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
- Burrell's? What or who is Burrell's?
- Anyhow, as I see it, this needs to be sourced. Just one link is all I really need to be satisfied. Then the paragraph could be retooled to avoid the weasel words issue. These are serious allegations, and they need to be backed up by more than just your word. Sorry, but I'm removing it again.--220.238.233.226 17:49, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
All you need to do is look at any article on conditions at the Superdome to know there were no MRE's and no stored water. If you do a little searching you'll find articles describing how there were no drugs stored at the evacuation center and how there were even medical personnel left because they did not feel secure. Of course, these are serious charges. But the criticism is a fact whether the content of the criticism can be explained away or not. As yet no one has disproved any element within the series. Can you prove, for example, the New Orleans Police force and other New Orleans first responders has adequate radio communications? Can you provide any other evidence any element of criticism was baseless? If you can your evidence should be added to the article. You shouldn't try to suppress the fact he mayor has been criticized. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.122 18:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
- Look, I'm just trying to make sure serious criticisms can be backed up. Have a look at the "weasel words" link I put up earlier. All that is needed is a link. If it's easily searched for, it shouldn't be too much to ask.
- Personally, I have doubts. In such situations, (given only a couple of days to prepare), I would expect responsibility for delivering such services to fall under some agency higher than the city government. I expect that delivery probably ran into complications as things progressed. However, I have no objections to putting in criticism if you can find SOMETHING to back it up. Even if it's total bullshit, at least we can say we got it from somewhere. If you can't find it in a reputable article, I'll even settle for a blog post. SOMETHING. --220.238.233.226 18:36, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Are you in a news blackout? Did you watch Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff's news conference that just ended? Again the criticism of the failure of local government first responders was reiterated. Nagin didn't have only a couple days to prepare, BTW. He had since his election in 2002. As the leder New Orleans' first responders it was Nagin's responsibility, along with whatever city commission New Orleans has, to equip the evacuation centers. It was Nagin's responsibility along with the police, fire and EMT commissioners to ensure proper backup communications were secured. FEMA always follows as relief to the first responders. They are not and cannot be the primary tool. They need to mobilize. Local emergency services are mobilized and on scene. No one know New Orleans like New Orleaneans. No one knows Miami like Miamians. No one knows New York like New Yorkers. Need I remind you who the first responders were on 9/11? You'll find a memorial to many of them at Ground Zero. But I'd like to say Nagin is not alone in culpability in the failure of the first responders. LA's Gov Blanco, for example, had only 3000 of the available 8000 Louisiana National Guard troops standing at ready[3]. However, that fact belongs in the article on Blanco, not Nagin. -- Long John Silver 12.74.187.122 18:58, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry. You'll have to excuse those who don't always have the television on.
- If you can find the speech, great. I'm sure a transcript would be up soon. BTW, have you looked at the weasel words link? Because once the transcript is available, the paragraph's going to have to be altered to fit.
Including the transcript would make this article that is supposed to be a biography, not a compendium of Nagin's incompetence, ridiculously long. It's quite clear you have your head in the sand on the first responder failures and would not have listened had you even heard Chertoff's criticism. Former LA Senator Livingstone just expanded the criticism of Nagin and Blanco by saying he pleaded with them to declare martial law at the same time Mississippi's Governor did - Monday. They didn't declare it until Thursday well after the looting, raping and murdering had been well underway. I'm sure you didn't hear that either. If you ever release the article from your edit conflict lock you'll get yet several more links. They will make the bio look foolishly long and lopsided but that's what you foolishly demamded. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.91 20:41, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Nagin's performance in the Hurricane Katrina crisis has been criticized as well and Nagin has been accused of deflection. As mayor he was responsible for establishing evacuation centers and keeping local order. Yet apparantly there were no meals ready to eat (MRE's) stored at his designated evacuation center - the Superdome. There was no water purification equipment on site, no chemical toilets, anti-biotics or anti-diarrheals stored for a crisis. The mayor had not designated any medical staff to work the evacuation center. The city had not established a secure sick bay within the Superdome. The city had not sent police or other vehicles through the poorest neighborhoods with evacuation announcements prior to the storm. Additionally, the city stored the school buses on low ground where they were flooded and then not available for evacuation. [4]
![[4]](http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.flpc21109012015.hurricane_katrina_flpc211.jpg?x=380&y=235&sig=NbUvEfVIaferkxoZTiys0Q--){kind=link}
- Matt Drudge posted a link to this pic with the very accusational headline "WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THE BUSES DURING THE MANDATORY EVACUATION, MAYOR?" It should be noted that the school buses apparently aren't owned by the city but by a private company called Laidlaw which runs some 40,000 school buses across the United States, as well as owning Greyhound. I was only able to find this information, after lots of searching, in an article in the Chicago Times. [5] Rabit 02:52, 2005 September 5 (UTC)
So what's your point? Is your point the mayor is absolved of his responsibility for providing adequate evacuation vehicles because the mayor decided to contract out school bus services and didn't require the buses to be stored on high ground in the contract? If yes, that is a very weak point. If no, what the hell are you talking about? Whether Drudge references the Associated Press photo or not, the photo is clear and the Drudge question is yet more evidence the mayor has been criticized for his failures. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 16:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
The quote "Mayor Ray Nagin and Governor Kathleen Blanco lost whatever fragile authority they ever had over New Orleans early Monday, as the waters still rose." from the City Journal [6] is being used out of context. The article tries to establish that the pre-existing crime problem in New Orleans and not the desperation of the victims was the main cause for the looting and lawlessness in the wake of hurricane Katrina. I believe the point of the quote in the article was that the mayor and the governor lost their authority in the city because the police was unable to perform their duties due to the flood waters and the loss of communications. The way it was used in the wikipedia article makes it appear that the City Journal made all the criticisms in the last paragraph.129.67.54.135 04:01, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Not true. The Mayor and Governor have been responsible for crime control in New Orleans all along. That they failed in their responsibility before Katrina and that made the situation more difficult does not absolve them of their failures during the storm. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 16:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
The quote from Mayor Nagin in [7] cannot be used to support the criticisms that there were no emergency provisions in the Superdome, for the simple reason that the convention center isn't the same thing as the Superdome.129.67.54.135 04:01, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
None of the above hair-splitting matters. It's clear the mayor is responsible for the planning and preparation of evacuation centers. The mayor is responsible for leading local order. The mayor is responsible for the performance of the first responders. Mayors have always been responsible for the order in their cities nomatter how much certain partisan interests would like to pin lawlessness in New Orleans on the President. The paragraph discusses the criticism of Nagin, not the criticism of the use of the Superdome. Nagin's criticism of others is as valid in this article as the criticism of Nagin. The paragraph got too lopsided against Nagin with the justifications some with a politcal motivation wanted to see, however, so I've truncated it. But that being said, Nagin has criticized others, others have criticized Nagin - both belong in this encapsulated bio of Nagin. Facts are facts as unplesant as they may e for certain people with partisan interests. That's just the way it is. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.85 04:41, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- I have no problem with placing criticisms of Nagin in the wikipedia. I'm only saying that the links do not support the paragraph. There are other links that do provide quotes that criticize the mayor, such as these [8][9][10] . Using these links instead may defuse some (but not all) of the controversy of the last paragraph. The first one is cached in google though, I can't find the original article anymore.129.67.54.135 04:57, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- Hmmm, the third one wasn't very convincing. You can use the first two, though. It's better to provide adequate sources to back up your edits, so others would not be so quick to dismiss them. Everybody's happier that way.129.67.54.135 05:42, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- Here's a non-cached link to the first article: [11]. 129.67.54.135 06:56, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
You mentioned Nagin and Blanco waiting until Thursday to declare martial law but Nagin said in the radio interview that he had already tried to declare it and that he did not know if Blanco was going to declare it or not. Also, FEMA trucks being there before the hurricane would have done nothing. If that had been the case you'd just have a bunch of FEMA trucks under water along with everything else. And if someone is willing to call Nagin incompetent (which they have right to do) you must also ask why the federal government was so slow to recognize the incomptence and instead sit on their hands because "technically" Bush needed Blanco to say pretty please with sugar on top.
Nagin does/did not have authority to declare martial law under the Posse Comitatus Act. Blanco failed him, but he failed the city in lashing out in his flail against the federal government instead of pinning the blame where it belonged. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 16:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Temporarily moved the paragraph below until the link provided actually supports the statements made in the paragraph. I can't seem to find any mention of a request for federal aid in [12]129.67.54.135 22:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- On the morning of Friday September 2, 2005, Nagin continued his criticism of authorities--particularly those on the federal level--for referred to on September 1, 2005 as "the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country" yet the formal request for federal assistance came only that afternoon of September 2, 2005 in a meeting called by President George W Bush on Air Force 1 held at the New Orleans Louis Armstrong International Airport in Kenner, Louisiana.[13] Upon the Federal takeover one day later persuant to the governor's request under the Posse Comitatus Act September 3, 2005 the lawlessness was put down and relief supplies were delivered to the city's starving.
Also moving this paragraph since it doesn't really belong to this article. Perhaps it should go here.129.67.54.135 22:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- FEMA director Michael D. Brown said that he had only officially learned about the Convention Center situation, thousands of people without food or water for 3-4 days, on Friday, September 2, 2005. He said trucks were on the way and should be there "soon". The media had reported the situation days before but without a request for assistance from the Governor federal officials were powerless to act under the Posse Comitatus Act.
- The governor requested help 2 days before the storm hit. Posse Comitatus allows the federal government to act in a natural disaster like this. And Michael Brown is full of shit. --130.95.106.154 03:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
NPOV-check
I would like to nominate this article to be reviewed for compliance with the NPOV standard. I am worried that the tone of the last paragraph, especially its last sentence, is excessively angry. Perhaps someone can think of a way to reword it or add more useful information. Optimusnauta 04:55, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
As of now the last paragraph's last sentence is:
"The media had reported the situation days before but without a request for assistance from the Governor federal officials were powerless to act under the Posse Comitatus Act."
This article has undergone several revisions given that left wing forces are trying to blame's the mayor's and Governor's poor planning on President Bush. Is this the sentence you were referring to? If yes, do you have relevant facts that absolve the Governor from her requirements under the Posse Comitatus Act? Or, do you have evidence she satisfied those requirements well before the reported meeing on Friday? Or, do you have some facts that suggest Brown would have been acting within his authority if he violated the Law and provided assistance prior to the incompetent Governor's request? It's clear the Governor failed mayor Nagin in not formally requesting help. It's also clear Nagin also failed his city by not demanding that request for federal help from the Governor. - -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 16:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
For the heck of it, I'm going to second on the fact this needs to have a NPOV check. It seems like certain people are pushing an agenda with their writing. Those that are, need to post that in a blog somewhere else. I agree it's not easy to try to write something neutral, but if it's not kept that way, Wikipedia will turn into a mess. (Davidpdx)
Agreed, if it should be there at all it should be in its own section of criticisms, but as of now there isn't any real need to make a rebuttal against, the rest of the page doesn't have any real positive spin, the timeline merely states what he has done. The entire paragraph obvious tries to lay blame of the entire disaster on Nagin. It should be deleted as it tries to editorialize. (64.142.28.90)
Why he would let his own people die in New Orleans, is only a true fact about him, he already admitted to evacuate the entire city. He admits the Superdome was unsafe, if he did nothing could get him in trouble, but he insists he has no doubt about the people dying in New Orleans. I know how many black people (only poor) now blame the mayor.
Regards, (65.54.xxx.xxx)
Hit piece on the mayor
This article is relatively NPOV, considering he has become famous overnight, but I'm not sure why anyone would want to critize Nagin's mayoral efforts or his blunt commentary...I think the man is rightfully pissed off. Here are facts from someone that knows about logistics:
- No one anticipated that the Superdome would be needed for anything other than to weather out the storm and for those that did, no one expected the Federal Government would take 5 damn days to get food and water there.
Then the mayor didn't plan for a broken levee when they've known there could be a levee problem for years? That's even greater incompetence than I've charged -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- I absolutely hate it when people break up comments like you have done so I'll ahve to respond likewise....THE FEDS took away the funding to make the levees withstand a Cat 5 Hurricane long before Nagin was Mayor...Nagin tried to get it back and was unsuccessful.--MONGO 19:48, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
- I think that Nagin is angry and rightfully so.
His greatest anger should be self anger -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- He should be mad at himself...why? Because even though he pleaded and sent out a desperate SOS on 8/31 and all the major networks had already well advertised that there were tens of thousands of people at the Superdome and Convention Center, they still took another 48 hours to get one drop of water there....The Superdome was expected to just be a 12 to 24 hour ___location to weather the storm...the dome had, of course, some supplies there, as well as a small contingent of police to maintain order...but they got reassigned due to the looting and shootings which broke out.--MONGO 19:48, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
- The flooding didn't commence until well after the worst of the Hurricane had passed.
This absolves the mayor from his poor planning how? -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- Where was the FEDS planning at...I know logistics and there is no damn excuse why they couldn't sling load by helicopter all the water and MRE's those people at the dome and convention center would have needed...that is what Nagin was complaining about...everyone knew those people had been there for 3 to 5 days waiting for water and food. How the heck is that Nagin's fault? --MONGO 19:48, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
- The federal government is used to supplying tens of thousands of soldiers and firefighters fighting western wildfires with all the food and equipment they need to get the job done...I remember vividly being in the middle of nowhere in Northern Idaho on a forest fire and having the army bring us cooked steaks, mashed potatos, peach cobbler and cubies (2.5 gallon cardboard boxed, plastic lined water contaniners) amounting to 5 gallons a day for water and to clean ourselves up...and they did it by helicopter and there would oftentimes be ten thousand firefigthers working all at the same time...but it was all hot and ready to eat...not to mention boxed lunches, MRE's and equipment, including water pumps. Once the news made it clear that there were 10's of thousands of people stranded at the Superdome and the Convention Center the Fed's could have sling loaded that stuff in there to at least hold those people over and saved some lives. Nagin pleaded with them to get moving and the Fed's lollygagged.
The federal government helps in crisis only after posse comitatus requirements are satisfied by an official request from the governor. The federal government does act on their own property in National Parks and etc. Are you faulting them for not saving the New Orleans post office? -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- Once the Fed's finally sent in the buses, what do they then do in their infinite wisdom...send them in empty...just a driver...I haven't heard that any food or water went inbounds with the buses except what would be needed for those getting on the bus. They could have put 12 National Guard troops on each bus and each one could have carried a crate of bottled water and a crate of MRE's and drop themselves and the supplies off and helped to provide these supplies as well as speeded up some of the needed security improvements and medical needs of the people.
The list is endless, but I really don't see much evidence of Nagin being very much a part of the problem. So long as the article remains NPOV report it all, the good, the bad and the ugly.--MONGO 04:25, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
I've now added the NPOV tag to this article.--MONGO 04:39, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
I think you can't say it's non-NPOV, because it's quotation. If you follow the rule,that putting quotation is non-NPOV you will end up with conclusion, that all quotations in wikipedia must be deleted because they are non-NPOV. Krakers
- No, the use of reputable sources is in question here such as one Australian tourist relaying info to his Dad who then passes it on to a foreign newspaper...that is not NPOV...it is purely POV and unsubstantiated.--MONGO 17:46, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
The fact there is criticism, is well justified by the huge volume of links here all with the same takeaway point. Nagin wasn't prepared despite warnings and his 3 years in office. Your singling out one of a dozen links is a diversion. That criticism is balanced by Nagin's criticism of President Bush. The balance provides neutrality. NPOV is not deserved. -- Long John Silver 209.247.222.81 18:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- To quote Nagin...That's B.S.! This isn't about quid pro quo...it's about establishing facts, not using sourcing from some foreign newspaper based on third party "evidence" you keep pushing. The rest of your links aren't telling us anything.--MONGO 19:48, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
Missing the point
The fact of the matter is government at all levels horribly failed the people affected by hurricane Katrina. 4+ days for suitable reinforcements? No matter what side of the fence one stands that response is flat out inexcusable and shameful.
Ndog
Repeated removals of direct quotes and links to relevant official documents, substitution of POV statements re Posse Comitatus Act
Jentizzle and 209.247.222.81 keep removing (1) Governor Blanco's August 28 letter to President Bush requesting extensive federal relief, [14]; (2) this quote from Bush's 8/27 declaration of a state of emergency [15]: The president's "action authorize[d] the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts . . . ."; (3) this link and quote from the Department of Homeland Security website: "In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility . . . for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort." [16]; (4) this quote from, and link to, the National Response Plan issued by the Department of Homeland Security in December 2004, which states, on page 43, under the "Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response," that "Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude." [17]
In place of all of this, 209.247.222.81 adds POV (his/her unsupported legal opinions) regarding the purported insufficiency, under the Posse Comitatus Act, of Gov. Blanco's request. I will leave this alone for now lest I run afoul of the 3RR rule, but this substitution of the user's POV for fact is a gross violation of Wikipedia policy. Krakatoa 19:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- Tht's because this Anon poster (Long John Silver) is pushing his POV which is apparently anti- Nagin.--MONGO 19:51, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to clarify that I didn't direct any of my changes at the information above. Rather, I addressed other POV issues in the article. In the midst of editing the page, 209.247.222.81 was also editing the page, and I assume, removed the above information. --Jentizzle 19:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- My comparison of the 18:08 version (the last by me) and the 18:33 version (after four edits by you) indicates that you deleted:
- "On Saturday August 27, President Bush "declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing." [18] The president's "action authorize[d] the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts . . . ." The Department of Homeland Security's website states that, "In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility . . . for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort." [19] Page 43 of the National Response Plan issued by the Department of Homeland Security in December 2004 states, under the "Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response," that "Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude." [20]"
- Bovineone in his reversion at 19:09 characterized your edits as "unexplained and unsubstantiated mass vandalism by Jentizzle." Krakatoa 19:53, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Then it was completely unintentional, and I apologize. This is, of course, in reference to those edits alone. There were at least two incidents, however, in which Long John Silver reinserted information about city schoolbuses which supposedly could have been used to evacuate people, and supported this with a jpeg of schoolbuses belonging to some entity other than the city, underwater. We were in the midst of editing the article at the same time, probably making opposing edits (whatever) that means with regard to the schoolbuses and other POV statements. --Jentizzle 20:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
- Apology accepted (from Jentizzle; Long John Silver is quite another story). I've gotten confused by those conflicting edit things, too. Krakatoa 20:11, 5 September 2005 (UTC)