I removed the following statement:
- The term is today used almost exclusively by Scanian regionalists as a way to claim a historical continuity of a non-Swedish Scanian identity. This includes claimes of Scanian being a seperate language and demands to grant Scanian official status as a minority language along side other minority languages of Sweden like Tornedal Finnish.
It would be nice to see a source for this. My experience of the term is solely from historical contexts, where the term obviously is used, and ...from my experience... more so than in the context of regionalism, that in the case of Sweden and Scania seems to be led by the Swedish government. :-)
Ruhrjung 17:17, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
- When I Googled for it, I got (like you mentioned) a bunch sites on history and then links like these [1] [2]. It certainly seems to be a popular term by regionalists, and I don't see why the entire paragraph was removed instead of just reworded. Peter Isotalo 08:53, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Well. The paragraph is wrong. The basic assumption behind the paragraph is wrong. Rewording it wouldn't help much, and... besides, the content belongs to an article on Scanian separatists, not here!
- I guess you mean that Googling is your source for the claim that the term "today is used almost exclusively by Scanian 'regionalists'" — indeed remarkable and unexpected from someone whom I've considered rather overzealous in his demands for scholarly quotes.
- ;-))
- --Johan Magnus 10:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, why don't you produce a non-web related source for it youself, then? If I can't use a googling to support an attempt to make it more NPOV, then you'll have to prove that it's supported by serious sources in the current state. Otherwise you're just reverting basing on your own opinions. Peter Isotalo 11:56, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
- I do not produce a source since it's you who need backup.
- :-)
- Besides: sv:Weibull (Lauritz or Martin), whom I believe to be the originator of the "modern" use of Skåneland, was hardly a "regionalist" (rather a Scandinavist and anti-nationalist); but to dig up his works, and then find a relevant quote is not made easily.
- I hope you googled for http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=terra-scaniae+OR+terrae-scaniae also.
- --Johan Magnus 13:12, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Disputed tag
After checking up on the term in Nationalencyklopedin and on the Internet I am, if anything, even more convinced of the fact that this article is heavily POV:ed. For one thing, the term "Terra Scania" (actually Terra Scaniæ) is a medieval term used for the landskap (provinces) of Blekinge, Halland and Skåne. The Swedish historian Martin Weibull based his new term Skånelandskapen ("the Skåne provinces", also knownn as "Skåneland") on this old geographic term, though they were not identical. Though he was himself actually a Scandinavist, who believed that describing the history of these provinces under Danish rule was a part of a bigger and more accurate common Scandinavian history, the term seems to have been basically hijacked by Scanian regionalists as way to construct a non-Swedish identity which is altogether a modern concept.
This term did not exist until 1868, when Weibull first used the term in Samlingar till Skånes historia ("Collections of/for the history of Skåne"). When Googling for it today, it is used only in a few historical sites (which are of course in Skåne) and predominantly by Scanian regionalists who range from the mildly excentric to the downright fanatic. In most cases a dichotomoy of fierce Scanian-Swedish rivalry is presented (though of course long since quelled by a brutal Swedish central government) with very tenuous historical support.
There is a dire need for this article to explain that this is not a genuine historical term, but a modern construction and denying the fact that it's used almost exclusively by Scanian regionalists is a very serious violation of NPOV.
Peter Isotalo 14:19, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
As it was phrased there, it would be better to remove it, yes - it's not "used almost exclusively by Scanian regionalists" today. It could probably be reworded to fit the article more, but I don't see the paragraph as strictly necessary... I wouldn't complain if a minor note was made about it, though.
Michael S. Andersen 15:23, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
- The paragraph hasn't been in the article since April 20?
- My experience is that Skåneland for many means "Country of Skåne" as though it was a country of its own, and don't know what the academical (or historical) meaning is.
- As you know, we can't draw our own conclusions (Secondary sources). If you suspect only regionalists use the term, back it up. But if you actually want to claim your sources as: "Doing 20 searches on google for the term, 18 were pages of regionalists" then I wouldn't object. --Fred-Chess 20:51, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
- Skåne as a seperate country is the very essence of Scanian regionalism, isn't it? As for conclusions based on secondary sources, how about showing some primary sources before protesting extrapolations from secondary sources? This article is in fact completely unreferenced and contains some very obvious errors and completely leaves out the origins of the term; even the misinterpretation of the name is misspelled. The onus of showing proper references lies on whoever wants to support the current state of the article.
- Has anyone noticed that all three external links lead to regionalist sites, by the way? And if you take a look at the edit history, you'll notice that Ruhrjung wouldn't even allow the most obvious one to be commented as a regionalist organization [3]. Is that a good indication of this term being especially neutral?
- Peter Isotalo 22:00, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
- A reasonable request.
- sv:Disussion:Skåneland quoting "Väsk" -- half translated:
- [..] The word is actually in NE: Copy from introduction: Skånelandskapen, de skånska landskapen, Skåneland, da. Skåneland(ene), samlingsbenämning på de från Danmark till Sverige 1658 avträdda landskapen Blekinge, Halland och Skåne, ibland även innefattande ön Bornholm --Väsk ✎ 21 juli 2004 kl.12.14 (CEST)
- Removing this from article:
- By the treaty of Roskilde the Kingdom of Denmark-Norway also ceded the Norwegian province of Bahusia to Sweden. Bahusia was however a historical province of Norway and not part of Denmark proper.
- Removing this from article:
- It has nothing to do with Skåneland
Since the use of the Latin term is not something that is actually historical, but rather just a part of Weibull's justification for the term "Skånelandskapen", and just another one of Mic's misconceptions of how to apply the naming policies, I've moved this to the most appropriate term.
Please see the NE article Skånelandskapen for why "terra Scaniæ" is not the appropriate article title. I also suggest comparing Google searches for "Skåneland" and "Skånelandskapen".
Peter Isotalo 13:21, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- <o>I will revert most of your changes. I can see not a single reference from you. --Fred-Chess 13:53, 19 May 2005 (UTC) </o>
- Actually I won't. The terms Skånelandskapen is used on historical pages and not on regionalistic. If you yourself don't think that is significant enough to mention, then I won't either. --Fred-Chess 14:53, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
- After checking with NE -- which I don't have available at home -- I see that you are correct in your additions. I will however do more research.
- // Fred.
My impression is that Skåneland refers to Skåne, Blekinge and Halland, as a unity, whereas Skånelandskapen refers to them as a collective. IMHO, it does not really matter what term is given in the article as long as the introductory paragraph clarifies the terminology. I would not recommend the term Terra Scania as it is hardly ever used, and its oldest usage seems ambiguous. Mic seems to have had a passion for Latin.--Wiglaf 21:42, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
New material
Before removing the new historical material, could you please list your arguments here first so that I can respond to them? --Fred-Chess 18:14, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
- I'd like to see some reference to a medieval concept of a Skåneland. As far as I know, the individual provinces were the most relevant administrative provinces at the time, and this new concept of a unified Great-Skåne is a 19th century attempt to construct a historical continuum.
- Skånelagen seems to have been relevant to Halland, Blekinge and Skåne, but there needs to be some sort of contemporary medieval reference to a Skåneland with a common idendity (that isn't just a sense of being subjects of the Danish crown) to claim that the term was used in this periodd. And I still must point out that the term "terra Scaniæ" (not Scania) does not seem to be a proper name, but merely a description, like saying "the lands of Bavaria" , which is hinted at in the NE-article since it is not capitalized.
- Is this image of Scanians as some sort of supressed ethnic and cultural really accurate? I'm sure there were plenty of Swedish purges of pro-Danish administrators and guerilla fighters, but I don't see how this would have been an ethnic thing. Any rebellious province in this era would receive the same harsh treatment if they showed disloyalty against the central government, and painting the picture of a Swedish-Scanian dichotomy in 17th century Sweden seems like applying 19th century concepts in an anachronistic fashion; the seeds of later nationalism had certainly been planted by this time, but they were not nearly as clearly defined as they would become later.
- Peter Isotalo 20:04, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- * I have not found any concrete reference that terra Scaniae was used to reference for all Skånelandskapen. I would however consider it likely that a joint (or common?) term was used to describe the eastern Danish land area, just as we have Jylland and Själland.
- According to Ambrius, the term "Skoneland" has been found in Danish formal letters and decrees from before 1658, but was not used in common speech.
- * My Latin is not really good. I think -ae in this case indicates genetive? That is: "the lands/areas/countries of Scania".
- * The things I wrote were probably a little harsh and one sided. But I am disturbed by the hostile occupation, done for no reason other than a desire to conquer. I assume most Scanians felt the same in 1658. How would you feel if Stockholm was overtaken and you were forced to learn Finnish?
- I am having difficulties taking quotes from NF as my material is interweaved there, so I hope you accept reading a few pages and make your own opinion. "Modern history of Skåne" starts on http://runeberg.org/nfce/0699.html This is about "snapphanar" http://runeberg.org/nfcf/0069.html . I know you can distinguish true facts, and all though I know my material isn't NPOV, it isn't complete wrong either. We probably have to give "both" sides (unlike NF) as both are being expressed in Scania.
- Also, I find it appropriate to refer to the hostile takeover in 1658 in this article of Skånelandskapen because it was not only Skåne that was taken over, but Skånelandskapen.
- * For the last argument, I would reference you to the last paragraph in the first article I gave above. I do hope you read the article in entity even if it is a lot more than just basic references, because I think it will be useful.
- Best regards, --Fred-Chess 11:21, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
- I would really like to remove the dispute-sign, but there's still the problem of "Terra Scaniæ" being treated as a term actually used in medieval times. It is treated as a proper name, which it does not seem to be. It seems to me to simply have been a pretty vague term that translates to "the country/land of Skåne". Please remove it if you can't find any actual contemporary references to it. Also, this dichotomy of "Scanian" vs "Swedish" still seems over-simplified. Could this somehow be explained in the text?
- Peter Isotalo 21:26, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
Williamborg
You write that the neutrality will be contested by those who have a different POV -- well this seems self evident to me?!
I have been writing to the best of my ability. I am fully aware that the article is not NPOV. If you have additional sources (and I know that you are knowledgeable in history) feel free to add material that would balance it out.
You would also benefit from not marking good copyedits as "minor". Regards, --Fred-Chess 10:59, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I have been giving this some thoughts. I think that we should avoid confusing readers. We should instead mention in the article all different POVs for relevant sections, instead of putting on a tag making it seem like the entire article is under question. Unfortunately I don't know which sections are being disputed so I can't do it. I have given a reference to where I have found term "terra Scaniae" mentioned.
- --Fred-Chess 12:54, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Unnskyld - no intent to offend. Just trying to stay neutral while doing some copy editing on an interesting article. My changes seemed minor to me - I tried not to change the intent, but simply catch spelling and some minor grammar.
- I do think this article has merit - and suspect that the choice of terms is being debated as a much more serious disagreement on the nature of the region as part of Sweden - but am not particularly qualified to join the discussion. The article and the continuing reverts are symptomatic of a real divergence in POVs, which is by itself worthy of a Wiki entry. After work I may come back to it and think about whether I can understand the concerns which make it so controversial. Williamborg 13:43, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Skåneland/"Terra Scania" is a term with obvious regionalistic overtones. I still haven't gone through all the articles in which it is used, but it seems to be applied though it was perfectly neutral and this is very, very inappropriate. Wikipedia should not pervey terminology which is clearly nonstandard and in itself POV just because it's practical. If it's not used by Swedes in general, this should be stated--Peter Isotalo 17:57, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC) and it should be avoided in other texts.
- If you're refering to the "terra Scaniæ" as it is stated in NE, Fred, I wouldn't call it a proper source. It is clearly not a proper name and seems to be more of an extrapolation that Weibull himself has made with no further references. If it's not used in medieval texts as a free-standing name, it should not be capitalized and the text be changed. This might seem a bit petty, but what I've seen so far seems to be unambiguous evidence that the entire concept of Skåneland is nothing but a 19th century invention.
- Peter Isotalo 13:49, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
- I appreciate your initiative in all articles.
- I do not, however, appreciate that you do not give proper respect to other contributers.
- First of all, read the text. Do you think it is fair that I should respond to criticism that is answered in the text? This is a waste of time.
- Best regards, --Fred-Chess 15:03, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- My biggest problem was that the issue of the term being a modern conconction stemming from the time when nationalism and scandinavism were at their highest. I moved the paragraph based on the NE article to the intro to make it perfectly obvious. I appreciate that you state your sources, but there's no need to cite each individual paragraph.
- I must stress the importance that you use the proper titles for your sources, by the way. Preferably with the ISBN numbers. I'm also a bit sceptical to using other Wikipedia articles (especially anything from the seriously dysfunctional Swedish Wikipedia) as a reference.
- And a Scandinavist is as far as I know a person who is devoted to the cause of joining the Scandinavian countries into one, a pretty popular movement in the 19th century.
- Peter Isotalo 17:57, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining your points.
- I have taken the liberty of re-adding references to each individual paragraph as hidden comments. It is amusing that you often ask for sources, but when exact sources are provided you think it is unecessary. These references are useful for people wanting to check the accuracy of the text. I see not why it should be better for an article not to include them?
- But I am actually quite satisfied with how the article looks! I think it looks good.
- I just want to point out that the first paragraph, somewhat based on NE, is biased. Just because NE writes something doesn't mean it is the only truth.
- --Fred-Chess 09:00, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How is the intro biased? The term is not generally accepted in Sweden and is quite seldom used. It has no official status and is burdened by Scanian regionalists who love using it in revisionist historical contexts as way to build a Swedish/Scanian dichotomy. The intro merely explains the origins of the term without even mentioning the regionalistic yoke.
As for the sources, adding sources for every paragraph just looks like bad layout and is really not an appropriate way of referencing. Either you make in-text citaitons, notes or you simply skip them altogether. This article is so small that it hardly needs anything but a list of literature. But I consider it completely inappropriate to cite other Wikipedia articles. It is basically no better than referencing hearsay.
Peter Isotalo 14:29, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Do you call that arguments? To me it looks like this " Because I think.. bla bla bla so this is correct" "I think bla bla bla , so this must be correct".
- --Fred-Chess 14:40, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Well, at least they are proper arguments and deserve to be responded to with more than just incivilities. I'll summarize:
- How is the intro biased?
- Stating unreferenced Wikipedia article as sources is pretty much original research. Please remove them. And just like it is bad to have no references at all, it is just as bad to over-reference. Especially with sources that are completely unmerited and inthemselves unreferenced.
- Peter Isotalo 21:18, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Well, at least they are proper arguments and deserve to be responded to with more than just incivilities. I'll summarize:
- Ok. I will address the arguments I can find.
- #1 The intro is biased because it consideres NE to be = the truth. Since we have other sources, this is not neutral.
- #2 Your point is that we should not give references if they are from Swedish wiki? Well, "references" mean to cite reference used in the text, which is what I have done. The validity of those are not my problem.
- #3 "It is bad to over-reference" is a non-argument (it is an opinion).
- Best regards, and not intending any incivility, --Fred-Chess 21:46, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The intro states in a very neutral fashion that Martin Weibull invented the term "Skånelandskapen" in 1868 which has of lately become "Skåneland" and explains his own reasoning for it. I haven't seen you cite anything that actually questions this fact. Does Ambrius say otherwise? If so, cite some passages. I see absolutely no reason to think that NE is biased in this matter.
- We do not cite sources that are inherently unreliable. Referencing a Wikiedia article without its own references is completely worthless since it's no better than referencing hearsay; how do we know that whatever is simply not as wildly inaccurate as this article was a few months ago? Wikipedia is simply not a reliable first-hand source of information in these matters.
- Since you don't trust me, just have a look at various FAs. They don't reference every paragraph. And what's the point of hammering this "it's just an opinion"-argumentation? I'm trying to tell you it makes the article looks worse, not insult your intelligence.
- Peter Isotalo 03:56, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
SAOB
While arguing in favor of Skåne vs Scania on another page, I did a search on SAOB. Not having any way of linking to it, I have created the result a sub page to this talk page. It is in Swedish but should be useful for Swedish editors. See Talk:Skåneland/SAOB
History in the Making
Although my interest in Skåneland is indirect, the controversy it generates indicates that there are important historical issues being dealt with here. The very passion of the debate makes it worth the effort – there is history still being made in Skåneland. So, with trepidation but also interest, I have added a few details to the older portions of the history.
In the effort I had the occasion to read some of Vilhelm Moberg’s work. His ability to take what appears to be a critical but balanced view is impressive. His birth in Småland leaves one wondering whether some of his views represent the product of the turmoil in Småland/ Skåneland (well - actually not wondering - he did represent the Småland/ Skåneland smallholder view). It is unfortunate he did not get to complete his history.
If you find the material I’ve added controversial, let’s ‘talk.’
Williamborg 05:24, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
- There is actually another thing I'd like ask your efforts on... This section in the text: In total, the area was invaded by interchanging hostile armies 39 times between 1276 and 1710 come from an unreferenced source on Swedish Wikipedia. I have not wanted to remove it. Can this be attested in your literature, so we can remove the reference to Swedish wikipedia? --Fred-Chess 07:58, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
- I originally left it in the original since I suspect it is essential true, although haven't verified it by counting. I'll delete it, replacing it with a Moberg quote. Williamborg
The discussion of Sawyer's point of view
In this article there was a certain POV and possibly bogus information, provided by User:Williamborg in the name of Sawyer. Let's have a look at it:
- The earliest historians, writing in the 12th and 13th century, believed that the Danish Kingdom had existed since time immemorial, while the kingdoms of Norway and Sweden were formed in the 10th and 11th century, each by consolidation of multiple small kingdoms.
This makes me wonder if it is a correct quote or if Sawyer has actually read Saxo Grammaticus and Snorri Sturluson et al, because it is plain wrong as far as Sweden is concerned. Moreoever, most these sources talk of the founding of Denmark under the legendary king Dan, at a time when Sweden already existed.
- Eighth century sources do confirm the existence of Denmark as a kingdom then. Ninth century sources mention the Svear (ancient Swedes) in the Folklands which is essentially the modern Swedish province of Uppland.
I wonder on what grounds User:Williamborg/Sawyer has excluded Tacitus (1st c.), Jordanes (6th c.) and Widsith (7th c.), sources among which Tacitus mentions a Swedish kingdom as early as the 1st century.
- According to ninth century Frankish sources, by the early 9th century many of the chieftains in the south of Scandinavia acknowledged Danish kings as their overlords. The west and south coast of modern Sweden was so effectively under Danish control that the area was known as Denmark (literally the frontier of the Danes). In the ninth century, various Svear chieftains gathered tribute in Finland and northern Russia.
Note that Williamborg states that there was a Danish kingdom but also that there were only chieftains in Sweden. Surely, Sawyer is worth being mentioned, but if this information is a correct reflection of that scholar's POVs and hypotheses, they have to be presented as such.--Wiglaf 08:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Terra Scania
I'm currently changing links from Terra Scania to "Scanian lands". As P.I. pointed out, Terra Scania is an incorrect form -- it has to be Terra Scaniae to be correct, and in those cases, "Scanian lands" is a direct translation. // Fred-Chess 13:18, 30 September 2005 (UTC)