Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics/Notability and inclusion guidelines
Is this about a wikipage for a particular webcomic or also about listing in List of Webcomics ? --Dyss 11:46, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Are the comics on www.comics.com and www.ucomics.com nationally syndicated? Otherwise they'll have the same problems as KeenSpace comics. --zandperl 04:42, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Hmmm. I think most are, but I know ucomics.com has that Comics Sherpa site now, which is supposed to feature non-syndicated comics. Comics that are syndicated probably shouldn't be listed at all, but those non-syndicated ones...
- Well, a bit more digging shows that you can sort the comics on comicssherpa by rating (popularity), so maybe we could say only top 20 there as well? RADICALBENDER★ 04:48, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
No more thoughts on this? It'd be good to see some degree of finality, because there's a few I'd like to create.
How about extending the Top 20 from Keenspace to Top 40, too? It'd include another couple of comics that I think are worthy. Ambivalenthysteria 03:04, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Although I see a few comics that I read that would be included by such an extension, I don't think there's enough to justify it at this time. -- Cyrius|✎ 03:23, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)
- Is the "Where do people go on keenspace.com?" metric ANY good? It lists Sexy Losers as the #1 destination (12%), and SL left keenspace ages ago. Ralphmerridew 15:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ranking
What if a comic's Alexa rank drops below the threshold? Do we remove it? I see three possibilities: Remove it; Don't remove it; Remove it only if it doesn't have an article.
Secondly, what if a comic has no three-month traffic average? (not considering sites that have changed domains) Are they simply considered too new for listing? -- Cyrius|✎ 03:21, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)
- We don't remove articles on anything else once they slip from the headlines. Why would we do this for webcomics? If they were relevant once, they have an article. With sites that are new, I think we should stay away, unless they've become rather notable in that time. Ambivalenthysteria 03:40, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I didn't think we would remove them, but since the proposed policy doesn't say, I felt it was a possible interpretation. But what about the current comic list? There's a number of comics on there that aren't notable, were never notable, and should be removed.
- You're right, but that's a matter of VFD. Once we can get agreement on a policy of handling them, I guess then we can go clean up the list. Ambivalenthysteria 06:03, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A problem with using Alexa is that it's often regarded as spyware, and is detected by spyware removal software such as Spybot and Adaware. Tim J Tylor 22:06, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Proposed non-notability template
I've created a {{minor webcomic}} template for articles about webcomics that do not qualify for inclusion by the current guidelines. It's intended to be used in the same way as {{notable}}, but explicitly mentions and links to the web comics policy. Does this seem useful? — Gwalla | Talk 20:35, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Wikiproject: Webcomics
According to Wikipedia: Wikiproject Webcomics, I wrote Planet Earth (and other tourist traps). Please let me know if this is unacceptable. -Branddobbe 05:07, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
Inclusion
Eric Burns, at www.websnark.com, has proposed a different baseline inclusion guideline for webcomics that I suspect is more fair and still is going to avoid vanity pages. His proposal is that every comic with an archive of 100 strips or more should be included.
Yes, this is going to lead to a lot more webcomics being included, but I'm unconvinced that's a bad thing. One of the things Wikipedia is good for is providing encyclopedic coverage of smaller scale events and things that wouldn't make it in a normal encyclopedia because of space concerns.
Or, to put it another way, nobody outside of Wikipedia is going to catalog these webcomics, and, unlike a lot of things, I think a strong accounting of webcomics is something that is very helpful (As I think Websnark puts persuasively at [1].
Even if something more restrictive than a 100 strip archive is requested, I think these guidelines are needlesly fierce. At most 20 Keenspace comics? A 200,000 minimum Alexis Rank? Eek. I know we have problems with the profligation of vanity webcomic pages, but this swings too far in the other direction. How about we just deal with webcomics on a case by case basis on VfD like we do high schools and other such things? Snowspinner 06:58, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
- I strongly agree with Snowspinner. (As you could probably guess I might). The idea that notability in what is essentially an artistic medium is wholly dependent upon popularity is, quite honestly, flawed. It took many years -- long after her death -- for Elizabeth Bishop to become well known, popular and anthologized as a poet, but as she was very popular among other poets her significance was considerable, and the aesthetic and critical importance of her poetry was certain. I think any system that relies upon the tyranny of popularity for inclusion in encyclopedic works will, ultimately, produce only articles of limited need. It is, in fact, the webcomics that develop depth, backstory and staying power but which don't have overwhelming popularity that need a centralized resource for webcomics fans to go to and learn more about them. Wikipedia is uniquely capable of providing a tremendous benefit to the webcomics consumer, but only if the articles are there. Quite honestly, it's rare someone needs to read up on Penny Arcade. But American Elf -- a strip produced by alternative artist James Kolchalka, a centerpiece of Joey Manley's Modern Tales family of comic strips, one of the most significant journal strips, one of the most successful (monetarily) pay-for strips and one of the most significant strips artistically (according to critics and significant artists in the webcomics community) doesn't fit the above guidelines for inclusion. One can only conclude that the guidelines do not meet the real need for encyclopedic information on the subject.--Eric Burns 07:09, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I disagree with this. The current webcomics policy is already much more lax than the general Wikipedia policy regarding websites. Wikipedia is not a web guide. The policy already accounts for comics that are notable for reasons other than their popularity. — Gwalla | Talk 23:46, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Inclusion Guidelines Counterproposal
Given my opinion that the guidelines as listed do not meet the needs of separating out the significant from the insignificant, instead rewarding simple popularity and denying smaller but sometimes more experimental or critically acclaimed works, it behooves me to produce a counterproposal to hopefully stimulate discussion.
This counterproposal takes the assumption that Wikipedia's articles, at their core, are a resource for web consumers -- a ready and central ___location for information on a broad variety of subjects. It is also the assumption of this counterproposal that a broad depth of webcomics, be they noteworthy due to popularity or noteworthy due to critical acclaim and aesthetic consideration, being represented in Wikipedia is of value to both Wikipedia and the webcomics community.
The following counterproposal is designed to produce guidelines based upon three basic criteria: commitment to the artistic work in time, commitment to the artistic work in effort, and a demonstrated fanbase. These would be determined as follows:
- A webcomic must be on the web and actively producing strips for a minimum of 33 weeks before being considered for Wikipedia. During this time, any hiatus periods lasting more than 1 week will not be considered "active" and will not count to this goal. "Guest Weeks," fan art and the like would be considered hiatus periods for these purposes.
- Thirty-three weeks is the better part of a year. Many if not most vanity webcomics are abandoned within 12-15 weeks. By demonstrating the ability to produce over this period of time, a webcartoonist shows commitment and almost certainly artistic and aesthetic growth.
- Thirty-three weeks is the approximate amount of time a typical Monday-Wednesday-Friday strip would need to reach 100 strips if the artist never missed an update.
- Guest Strips and Fan Art, while demonstrating fan support of the strip, do not show commitment on the part of the webcartoonist, and so must be considered "inactive time" if the webcartoonist him or herself does not produce and post a strip of their own during the one-week period.
- A webcomic must have at least 100 strips in its archive before being considered for Wikipedia. These strips must all be produced by the webcartoonist or webcartoonist team (though strips where the primary creator is actually the writer, recruiting several artists to produce the strips they write, would be considered "produced by the webcartoonist for the purposes of inclusion. Guest strips and fan art -- produced wholly by others -- would not.)
- 100 strips represents a significant amount of effort on the part of the webcartoonist, showing commitment that most vanity strips simply do not have.
- 100 strips is considered a milestone by most webcomic creators, and has some significance in the webcomic community.
- Guest strips and fan art, while demonstrating fan support of the strip, do represent neither the artistic growth of nor a commitment by the webcartoonist, and therefore would not be considered as part of the 100 strips for purposes of inclusion.
- Someone other than the webcartoonist would need to actually write and develop the article in question.
- It is difficult for a webcomic's primary creator to adopt the necessary distance from his or her own work to write an encyclopedic article.
- The voluntary development of the Wikipedia article by someone other than the webcartoonist demonstrates fan support of the strip, and represents notability among a discrete population.
The ultimate goal of Wikipedia's guidelines for inclusion are to separate out those strips without note, commitment or worth, while highlighting those strips that possess note, commitment and worth. With the many thousands of strips available on the web, it is a losing proposition for any project of any kind to try and include them all. However, as the medium of webcomics and online sequential art grows and flourishes, it becomes increasingly important that there be repositories of factual and critical information on them, not bound to popularity but instead to significance. - Eric Burns
- I would chime in here that webcomics creators already ought not write their own articles, as per the vanity pages policy Wikipedia already has. Snowspinner 07:51, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
- That seems fair enough. On the other hand, maybe creators should not be disqualified from correcting factual errors in articles about their strips... Lee M 02:52, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Allow webcomic creators to respond to errors in the discussion pages; if somebody agrees, that person may make the correction. Ralphmerridew 15:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- A lot of webcomics are in large comic-book page format, one page probably taking the effort of three or more newspaper-format strips. Maybe you should have different archive-minimum numbers for different formats. Tim J Tylor 22:24, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I think 33 weeks is a little weak. I'd like to see a minimum of a year's worth of consistent activity, just so we know that the creator is serious enough to stick it out through everything that goes on in a year, and isn't just whittling away a lazy semester and a boring summer. I just can't believe that, in general, a comic that can't even stick around for a year could possibly be that signifigant. If there are exceptions to this, then they should be handled as exceptions (meaning just create the article and see if it survives a VfD). - Lifefeed 20:06, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
- I have to agree. 100 and 33 are, IMO, very small numbers to use. Moreover, even a comic that lasted several times as long wouldn't merit a Wikipedia article if nobody read it. The mere fact that somebody's done something for a long time doesn't make it significant, and that's really all these guidelines measure. Popularity and/or influence on other work are the important criteria, I think. The latter is unfortunately difficult to measure. (Note that I'm not saying that popularity makes a comic "good", whatever good is, but it does make it notable enough for an encyclopedia article.) —Triskaideka 15:55, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think a year of consistent activity would be acceptable. Practically every halfhearted hobbyist effort makes it to 33 weeks and 100 strips. Personally, I'd prefer two years as a baseline—if something is to be included based on longevity, it should demonstrate longevity that is out of the ordinary (the ordinary being pretty weak in this case).
And I agree with Triskaideka that the most important criterion in notability is whether people have taken note. In general I prefer the earlier ranking-based guidelines to Eric Burns' how-long-they've-been-plugging-away-based guidelines. We should also make it clear, however, that these guidelines are only a fallback in case the comic has no other legitimate claims to notability (being covered in national or international news, being particularly influential, etc.) Webcomics are not an exception to the general guidelines of Wikipedia.
We shouldn't be bending over backwards to let every webcomic have an article just because they exist and we like the medium. Besides, if these inclusion guidelines are too lax, nobody on VfD will take them seriously, which would defeat the whole point. — Gwalla | Talk 04:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that, if longevity is to be sufficient for inclusion (that is, for a comic that is not sufficiently popular, particularly one that has ended, such as 1/0 or Unicorn Jelly), two years is a nice solid baseline to use. Nifboy 08:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I suggest going even further. Wikipedia is not a web comics directory. Limiting the listing to 10-20 of the most popular web comics should be sufficient. DiceDiceBaby 30 June 2005 17:34 (UTC)
- I disagree completely. This would lead to a mass deletion of useful content. Nowhere does it say that Wikipedia should not cover notable web sites. The web comic coverage would apper to be far from the definition of directory on What Wikipedia is not. Keenspot alone has significantly more than 20 comics, all of them popular, and I can name a dozen notable non-members off the top of my head. Coverage of subjects such as this is one of the advantages Wikipedia has over its fellow encyclopedias. Frankly, I'd appreciate a few more reasons supporting Dice's argument because this one sounds like "I say Wikipedia doesn't work like this, so let's nuke stuff". Sry if I came across as cross.
#¤£& deletionists...--Kizor 08:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Disambiguation standards
I just wrote a little question over on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics, about the fact that I noticed that among disambiguation add-ons to the names of web comics with common names, like Avalon, or Copper, or Freefall, there was no kind of standard behavior: It's Avalon (web comic) but Copper (comic) and Freefall (webcomic). Should this matter? Heck, between this page and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics, we can't even agree on whether it's one word or two (hell, I'm almost certainly inconsistent in my usage, as well). Any ideas, or does it just not matter one way or the other? --Ray Radlein 05:20, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
Alexa
I'm sorry if this seems obvious to you, but I'm not very familiar with Alexa. Which ranking is the relevant one for our purposes? It must be "reach," I guess, because "Views" is always very very low, even for very popular sites. --Iustinus 29 June 2005 19:15 (UTC)
- Traffic Rank. A lower number means higher traffic (a rank of 1 is the most popular site among Alexa users). — Gwalla | Talk 29 June 2005 21:24 (UTC)
- The project page says "Alexa will be used to determine traffic for any web comic with its own ___domain name. If the web comic has a 3-month average traffic above 200,000, it can be considered to be an entry that could be allowed in Wikipedia." Surely this does not refer to "Traffic Rank"? Unless "above" actually means "below" I suppose (how to phrase such a ranking could be confusing). --Iustinus 30 June 2005 05:56 (UTC)
- Perhaps you guys should reword it "The webcomic must attain a rank equal to or higher than 200,000 in a continuous 3 month period" or something... seems kind of confusing the way it is now... Sasquatch′↔Talk↔Contributions July 9, 2005 09:57 (UTC)
I just changed it from "above 200,000" to "better than 200,000", since that is what is meant. It is often necessary to explain to people that a higher number than 200,000 is actually worse, not better. (This usually comes up in VfD discussions.) It might be good to go further in clarifying, but it's a start. -Aranel ("Sarah") 15:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
New idea
Since, well, Wikiprojects can't actually set global policy, I propose this as our new inclusion guidelines:
Articles that survive VfD or are not nominated for VfD will be included.
How's it sound? Snowspinner 16:49, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds blindingly obvious. I like it. Nifboy 18:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
- Wikiprojects can't set global policy, but they can suggest criteria for evaluating a subject, as WP:MUSIC has demonstrated. — Gwalla | Talk 02:28, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Notability based on something other than popularity or longevity?
Essentially, I'm wondering what criteria might be used to determine a comic's notability, outside of its Alexa rank (which is rather strict) or the size of its archives (which doesn't fly in VfD in practice). Possible criteria might include:
- Web Cartoonists’ Choice Awards winners and/or nominees.
- Members (past and present) of various collectives, such as Keenspot or Modern Tales (probably what groups will be included will be determined individually).
- Comics which are the focus of articles in Comixpedia or other notable webcomic sites.
Thoughts/suggestions? Nifboy 08:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- What about webcomic lists on the internet already? I know they function as ranking lists, but like Keenspace, they act as internet communites for webcomic artists. Buzzcomix and TopWebComics immediately come to mind. --Shirley Grace 03:12, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
notability template
I thinking of making a notability template That will simply outline the requirements that can be pasted in a discussion or used in some other manner. It will be at {{webcomic notability}}. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 11:50, 2005 September 2 (UTC)
- My thoughts on Notability: I think Proposal B ought to be eliminated completely. Not every comic that reaches 100 strips and 33 weeks is notable. Or better yet, almost no comic is notable after only 100 strips and 33 weeks. Updating 3 times a week for 8 months does not equal instant notability. Proposal A is pretty good. Alexa rank under 200,000 reflects that a large number of readers find the comic notable. Proposal C isn't bad, though again a comic doesn't reach instant notability after 5 years if no one reads it. Maybe Proposal C should only be used for webcomics that have stopped publishing, since comics that have stopped publishing are unlikely to still have the readers to have Alexa 200,000 hits? Thoughts? --Dragonfiend 14:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
- Proposal B is basically used as CSD criteria at this point; it's very easy to kill a webcomic in VfD if it doesn't meet those criteria. Proposal A has a fairly narrow scope, and it's generally agreed upon that a comic like Bruno is notable despite its abysmal Alexa rank of ~600k. Nifboy 16:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
What's the point of a template? Where would this be inserted? — Gwalla | Talk 03:38, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- I was thinking of eventually making it like the babel template, in that we insert it into the talk page with the relevant inclusion items highlighted. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make the notability more prominent. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 20:13, 2005 September 6 (UTC)
I put it on the front page of the project. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 09:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Thoughts on Inclusion Criteria
I apologise for starting a new discussion on this page when there is already ongoing discussion before it, but it seems that those threads seem to have petered out. I came across List of webcomics yesterday, and to me, it looks to me like Wikipedia is being way to lax about inclusion guidelines.
There seems to be so much dreck on that list, and I feel that the inclusion guidelines are way too lax. If I were to post 100 stick man comics onto keenspace, does that make it notable, and worthy for an article? No way. In WP:MUSIC, the band/artist needs to have some kind of influence/acknowledgment outside their own musical circle. For many webcomics on wikipedia, this simply isn't the case, no one outside the the webcomic community will know about them, and only a small subset of that community will actually follow a specific comic.
Webcomics, being self published, means that very few will ever gain major attention. This does not mean we should lower inclusion boundaries to make sure we have many webcomic articles. Say a band has been around for a few years now, without a record deal, but with quite a few self published EPs and maybe an LP. They have a good local following, and play out regularly to some packed out small venue. They wouldn't warrant an article, yet a similarly popular webcomic with a readership of a few hundred apparently do?
Above, the idea was mentioned that any webcomic of over 100 deserve a wikipedia article, because no other encyclopedia would publish it due to lack of space. But just because the information could not be included anywhere else, doesn't mean that wikipedia should house it. You know what a great idea would be? A separate webcomic wiki, where even the webcomics with tiny readership could get an article. We could link it from any webcomic articles and it'd would be a great place to transwiki stuff to as well as acting as an encyclopedia of webcomics. - Hahnchen 01:13, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
- Maybe that would be useful for a seperate wiki, but many of these are perfectly notable for Wikipedia. Incidentally, the band you describe would also be likely to have an article that would survive AfD - we have many of those articles on Wikipedia, and I'm thankful for that. Ambi 01:37, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
- That band would have been deleted as vanity. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, when I say without a record deal, I mean never ever had a record deal. And when I say a few EPs, i mean just some stuff they copied and sell at gigs. And by gigs, I mean nightclubs and bars in a town. No way is that notable enough, if it was I could list a whole string of bands in Scarborough, who perform regulary at the venues there and have a reasonable following, yet would be tossed off WP. But a tiny readership webcomic like many on WP, just because they have lasted 100 strips (how hard is that?) warrants an article. As tempted as I am to write an article on Fleetwood Back, the tribute band with the best name in Scarborough, I won't. - Hahnchen 02:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC), Hunter of all things self-promotory.
- You are right, 100 comics does not mean notability. Yes, people have written articles for non-notable comics. If you find one, nominate it for deletion. Dragonfiend 04:08, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
- Looking around at some of these comics, I see that there does infact exist a comic wiki, at ComixPedia, there seems to be a lot of stuff on wikipedia, that should belong at the comic wiki and only migrate across when notability is established. I think we should toughen up the inclusion criteria. What if a blogger makes 100 posts, are they entitled to an article? Some blogs are quite popular and read by many inside the enclosed blogging community, and will have some dedicated readers. Yet, they don't deserve an article, because there is no notability outside of the "blogosphere", the same should apply with webcomics. - Hahnchen 00:06, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
- That band would have been deleted as vanity. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, when I say without a record deal, I mean never ever had a record deal. And when I say a few EPs, i mean just some stuff they copied and sell at gigs. And by gigs, I mean nightclubs and bars in a town. No way is that notable enough, if it was I could list a whole string of bands in Scarborough, who perform regulary at the venues there and have a reasonable following, yet would be tossed off WP. But a tiny readership webcomic like many on WP, just because they have lasted 100 strips (how hard is that?) warrants an article. As tempted as I am to write an article on Fleetwood Back, the tribute band with the best name in Scarborough, I won't. - Hahnchen 02:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC), Hunter of all things self-promotory.
I agree that the guidelines look too lax to me, too. If we applied similiar ones to bands, as pointed out above, every bar band that stuck around for a little while would qualify. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure why web comics need seperate criteria from any other website. A look at recent VFDs shows that quite a few wikipedians are willing to suggest a delete, even on things that may pass the standards suggested here. Friday (talk) 16:32, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
My opinion is that these guidelines are not only much too lax, they are not even to the point. In my opinion checking for importance of a webcomic should not be measured by how long it has been running, but by something like the Google test, with a limit at 1000 (or 500 or whatever) links. There would however be the problem that many webcomics have names that also occur in other contexts.
I would even endorse a very restrictive policy on webcomics - something like "any webcomic included should have a specific reason for that". We don't habitually include series from self-published authors either. - Andre Engels 11:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Certainly no amount of longevity is sufficient. There are some webcomics I love, both widely-read and much less so, and I respect people who stick to writing them whether they're widely-read or not. But if there aren't people reading them, they're not notable. -- SCZenz 22:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
- When I compare the currently proposed standards for webcomics to the standards at WP:MUSIC the primary difference I see is that all criteria used for determining musical notability will generate independent sources to verify the accuracy of material. Top 100 hits, album releases by major studios, or large musical tours generates reports in the music press while major awards are commonly reported by the mainstream media. Looking at the currently proposed standards for webcomics yields only the Alexa test as an independent source. I would sugest the best place to look for better guidelines is in finding additional independent sources to help webcomics meet current verification policies. One you find a source not associated with a webcomic that can verify a reasonable amount of information on the comic you will have also found a source that shows that people not directly associated with the comic have an interest in the subject. --Allen3 talk 01:13, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
- I strongly agree with Allen3. Basing such a large part of this guideline on Alexa rankings seems inadequate, and at the same time also overtly reliant on a non-perfect webranking system. On that note, could we at least include some of the cautioning comments from Wikipedia:Alexa Test in this guideline? I know it's slightly redundant, but it never hurts to be clear, especially when one of the proposals in the guideline places such great importance in the Alexa rank. And basing it simply on quantity doesn't seem a very good measure of notability either.
- I just have absolutely no idea what would be a better "independent source" than Alexa, as far as webcomics go. The only thing I can think of is that receiving, and, for some of the bigger ones, being nominated for an award automatically qualifies you as "notable" (although I have a feeling that most awardwinners already qualify by traffic). E.g. the Eisner awards, the Webby Awards, and maybe the Web Cartoonist's Choice Awards. Anyone have more (and better) ideas for "independent sources"? --Codemonkey 03:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
- It would be difficult to come up with a worse source than Alexa. Besides, what about obviously notable strips that ended several years ago? They're going to be underrepresented even if we can somehow find an accurate webranking system. Web rankings are not the way to go. Factitious 05:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
- That is the reason why I don't normally nominate dead comics. Where the only way is to do lookups on google to establish some sort of notability. Obviously notable strips which ended several years ago, will have some sort of google presence. It's the borderline notable strips which ended several years ago which I have been wary of nominating. I'm also wary of using toplists of webcomics as a reference, as most of the top comics are link spammed there. The main gripe, is that webcomics normally generate at least a few die hard fans, who then proceed to create an article about the webcomic just because it has over 100 strips in the archive, and there are more non notable ones on wikipedia. I feel that a webcomic should assert its notability in the article, whether its due to popularity, status of the author, or notoriety etc. I mean, I reckon Fireman Comics should probably deserve an article, even though it only had about 25 strips, because it made the front page of SomethingAwful a few times (not as ALOD) and was written by Kevin Bowen. - Hahnchen 16:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, I'm thinking out a bit more of a balanced proposal. What I have come up with so far are some starting points; some preambles if you will.
- The assertion that a comic with a Alexa rank better than 200,000 is notable is a reasonable one.
- The assertion that a comic with a Alexa rank worse than 200,000 is automatically non-notable isn't necessarily true.
- As noted by Wikipedia:Alexa Test Alexa has a build in bias. Also, it's software is perceived by a part of the more technicaly literate community on the internet as spyware, and as such is biased against the sites they visit. I'd pose (without too much evidence beyond the anecdotal, I'm afraid) that there is enough overlap between the webcomic reader community and the just mentioned anti-spyware community for it to affect Alexa rankings.
- There are certain cases where Alexa rank will disqualify a notable webcomic for other reasons:
- Cases where a (once) notable comic has gone into archive mode.
- Cases where an erratic update schedule makes well-read and known (notable) comics' readership read the comic in such a pattern that it is harder for Alexa to pick up.
- Cases where something has garnered critical acclaim and/or recognition, but hasn't yet picked up a sufficiently large reader audience.
- On the other hand, Alexa might over inflate the rankings of certain webcomics
- This is mostly a concern when a webcomic does not have it's own ___domain name, but functions under a sub-___domain or sub-page of a larger website
- A lot of the points made above are about what legitimate problems one may have when one takes Alexa ranking as a starting point for assessing notability. Thus, a large part of those points can be solved by simply having a better independent source than Alexa, or webrankings in general.
So the gist of my thoughts is that (1) we can use Alexa as a starting point for determining webcomic notability, but (2) there are some legitimate problems with Alexa ranking, that either need to be addressed point for point, or (3) we should replace the Alexa rank with an independent source better than Alexa.
If we can't agree on a better independent source than Alexa, we should at least address the concerns with Alexa for now.
I can see some obvious solutions of some of the noted concerns already. For instance, the mentioned bias in point 2.1 is in part negated by the fact that this guideline uses the cut-off point of 200,000 instead of the Wikipedia standard of 100,000. It's still something to be mindful about though.
For point 2.2.3, I can see us just listing a couple of the big Awards with regards to webcomics, and it might also be a good idea to flesh out Hahnchen's comment about "a webcomic should assert its notability in the article, whether its due to popularity, status of the author, or notoriety" a bit more and put it in the guideline. For example, as a final clause to the guideline "If notability cannot be established by above methods, wikipedians should try to establish notability in the article based on status of the author, notoriety, or mention by a reputable independent source or mainstream media in the article, and should take said factors into consideration for possible VfDs"(again, just an example). In fact, I strongly think this should be good idea. (and I agree with Hahnchen that toplists should be avoided here)
Did I forget anything? Other comments and/or corrections on my points? --Codemonkey 19:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
- Hi everybody, just wanted to add my 2 cents to this issue:
- "Someone other than the webcartoonist needs to actually write and develop the article in question" - a definite yes. I think this should be a general wikipedia guideline, nobody should write or edit his own article if he is so lucky to have one. Prevents vanity articles and make sure that the topic is at least interesting to 2 people in the world :-)
- "Traffic" or "age" "number of strips" as a delimiter: Those numbers are easy to check, but they don't correspond with the main question of inclusion in a encyclopedia: Has it affected people? Did it matter to them? How does this article compare with other articles that have been included/removed? I think the only way to solve those issues is to have a public vote for every article and ask those questions. In order to remove ballot-stuffing, a karma-system (sometime) or only-one-vote-per-ip (asap) should be added to the features the mediawiki code.
- This is a turning point in wikipedia, as it might move from "encyclopedia" to "a copy of every information possible at one place". While the second option sounds interesting, it would also add many problems to the existing architeture. Maybe a different wiki could be setup for the latter task?
- Anyway, that's my thoughts. Cheers! Peter S. 19:29, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- There already is a place that (very nearly) contains "a copy of [all] information possible at one place"--the internet itself! The primary goal of wikipedia is to make sure the internet has all of the well-documented information that's currently published in other forms, not to categorize things you can already find with a google search. -- SCZenz 20:11, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Replacement for Alexa?
There seems to be a common argument that, because Alexa is biased, it shouldn't be used for the comic criteria. This is reasonable, but many people on the AfD pages seem to believe it also follows that no proof that anyone reads the comic is required. This is silly. I don't care how it is done, but somehow there must be a verifiable assertion that a lot of people read a comic for it to be counted as notable simply because it exists. (Of course, there may also be other reasons it's notable too; I'm speaking for cases where there aren't.) -- SCZenz 19:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)