Talk:Traditionalist Catholicism
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Due to the rapid and verbiose nature of this debate, comments are quickly archived by chronology: 2003 to September 2005, October 2005.
Unprotection
Due to the controversial nature of this article, please do not make any significant changes without first obtaining consensus. // Pathoschild 02:49, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Section-by-section editing
Overview
The current article is highly controversial amongst the editors, which has led to an effective impasse of discussions and the indefinite protection of the page. This set of discussions is an attempt to form a cohesive, highly organised consensus on the article on a section-by-section basis. Do not discuss any matter that does not pertain to the section you are posting in. All discussion of the method of section-by-section editing should be placed under the header "Discussion of section-by-section editing". Pathoschild will rigidly control the formatting and organisation of comments placed in this section.
The article as it has been agreed to so far is located at Talk:Traditionalist Catholic/Consensus.
Overall structure
This question, which involved the titles and levels of the headers under which the information will be organised, has reached consensus. This discussion is closed unless a majority of members with at least one month of Wikipedian membership and 100+ edits wish it to be re-examined. The structure agreed upon is as such:
- Summary
- Traditionalist beliefs
- Places of worship
- Relations with other Catholic groups
- See also
- External links
- References
- Opinions
- Pro-traditionalist
- Anti-traditionalist
Summary
The summary is a short text, preferably one paragraph and no more than three paragraphs, which either summarises the article or introduces the subject. There are currently two conflicting proposals being debated, named after the users who originally proposed them. // Pathoschild 20:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Draft Summary Lima #3 (DSL3): supported by Lima and Dominick (last updated 20:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)).
"Traditionalist Catholic" and "traditional Catholic" are terms that some use to refer to Roman Catholics who would like to see the worship and customs of the Roman Catholic Church return to those before the reforms of the 1960s. Others understand by them only those Roman Catholics who insist on the preservation of the Mass liturgy]] and of all the other sacramental rites in use before the Second Vatican Council, along with all the doctrine, and who see it as their duty to resist the changes, in their view a veritable revolution, that have occurred in the human element of the Roman Catholic Church since that Council.
Unless explicitly stated, this article will use the terms in the latter sense, which is the more common meaning attached to them in debates about the people concerned.
- Draft Summary Used2BAnonymous #5 (DSU5): supported by Used2BAnonymous and Malachias111 (last updated 20:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)).
"Traditional Catholic" is a term used by some to refer to those Catholics who would like to see the worship and customs of the Roman Catholic Church return to those before the reforms of the 1960s.
The terms "Traditional Catholic" and "Traditionalist Catholic" are more commonly used -- and are used in this entry -- to refer to Catholics who insist not only on the preservation of the Mass liturgy but who want to preserve all the other sacramental rites in use before the Second Vatican Council, along with all Catholic doctrine as understood in the following section.
This discussion has been partially archived to #Summary in the October 2005 archives. // Pathoschild 20:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Used2BAnonymous’s proposed description of his "traditionalist Catholics" either ignores the point of view of others (positing only his opinion about who "uphold the faith as held for two millennia"), or else it fails to distinguish his "traditionalist Catholics" from other people.
The summary (not the article as a whole) is about distinguishing Used2BAnonymous's "traditionalist Catholics" from other people. Dominick's "traditionalist Catholics" are described in words that are of a neutral point of view. Used2BAnonymous's should also be described in words that are of a neutral point of view.
Instead of answering this objection to his proposal, Used2BAnonymous only plants red herrings, talking about other as yet undecided sections of the article or pretending that the statement that, while the general public instead overwhelmingly uses "Traditionalist Catholics" rather than "Traditional Catholics", Traditionalist Catholics in the narrow sense make up the immense majority of those who use "Traditional Catholics" somehow means that the article should deal only with exclusive-sense traditionalists. This is not the place to discuss such matters. Lima 08:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Pretty much sums it up, Lima. I sometimes despair and get sick of words being put in my mouth, and I respond and knock us off track. There is room for all traditionalists, and I still find it curious how the sede groups are included that profess no attachemnt to the Holy See or Catholicism while U2BA proclaims that some groups are not "traditionalist enough". Dominick (ŤαĿĶ) 12:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- No red herrings. What I said was that the definition should refer to "the section below." The items in "the section below" are very clear and NPOV. Used2BAnonymous 17:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- This is another red herring. What we are discussing is the opening summary, and more particularly Used2BAnonymous's draft for the that summary, which even he seems unable to defend. If he does not even attempt to defend it, may we take this as an implicit withdrawal of the draft? Lima 17:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- You might want to put the bottle down if you're seeing so many non-existent red herrings. I am talking about the summary. I say that the second definition -- i.e., the definition of "traditional Catholics" in the exclusive sense -- should refer to "the section below." Used2BAnonymous 18:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Please avoid implicit, borderline, or subtle personal attacks. The latest proposed versions are, unless I'm mistaken, DSL3 and DSU4, respectively blockquoted below. If at all possible, please relate the discussion more closely to the summary itself. [The blockquotes have been removed because updated proposals are blockquoted almost directly below. // Pathoschild 19:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)] //Pathoschild 18:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Bumped due to edit conflict with comment below. // Pathoschild 18:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Do you withdraw your draft? It is a simple question. Dominick (ŤαĿĶ) 18:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- I think accusing me of throwing out "red herrings" and of being "obstructionist" with every post I make is a personal attack. As to the summary, once again, I propose that the second definition refer to "the section below" or "the following section" or what not, such as the summary used in the present article does. What is the problem with this? It is a simple question. Used2BAnonymous 19:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Ok we have two editors accepting the Lima version and one insisting, for some unknown reason, that his own is better. Now what. 19:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- The updated proposals, DSL3 and DSU5, are respectively blockquoted below for comparison. [The blockquotes have been moved out of the discussion.] // Pathoschild 19:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- It's TWO for Used2BeAnonymous's version. Malachias111 20:30, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Pathoschild, you wrote that Lima and Dominick propose and agree to:
- "Traditionalist Catholic" and "traditional Catholic" are terms that some use to refer to Roman Catholics who would like to see the worship and customs of the Roman Catholic Church return to those before the reforms of the 1960s. Others understand by them only those Roman Catholics who insist on the preservation of the Mass liturgy]] and of all the other sacramental rites in use before the Second Vatican Council, along with all the doctrine, and who see it as their duty to resist the changes, in their view a veritable revolution, that have occurred in the human element of the Roman Catholic Church since that Council.
- -- but they object to this because they say that "traditionalist Catholics" of the first definition also want to preserve "all doctrine." The doctrine involved is understood differently by these two groups, which is why I propose referring to "the following section" to clarify the beliefs of the second group -- the group most often referred to when the phrase "traditionalist Catholic" is used. Used2BAnonymous 04:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
- Pathoschild, you wrote that Lima and Dominick propose and agree to:
- I merely quote from the archives. See my own comment posted 13:36, 20 October 2005 (UTC) and their subsequent responses; Lima's comment posted 14:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC); and Lima's comment posted 15:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC). Both Dominick and Lima express their support for those revisions. Any comment about the proposal itself should be directed at Dominick and Lima. // Pathoschild 05:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I see that, yesterday evening, Pathoschild, on behalf of Used2BAnonymous, replaced DSU4, which Used2BAnonymous was no longer defending, with DSU5, corresponding to what Used2BAnonymous seems to have really been talking about, though he had not formally made the change. I think Pathoschild's move was wise, and I hope that Used2BAnonymous accepts DSU5 as the concrete topic to which we should keep (if not discussing DSL3), or else that he immediately formulates DSU6.
The problem with DSU5 is its reference to "the following section". The article should begin by letting readers know who or what it is about. Instead of that, DSU5 says: "Read the following section first, if you want to know who or what the article is about."
DSU5 is in fact a proposal that we suspend discussion of the summary and move instead to discussing the next section.
To Dominick I regret I must say that it is not numbers that count, but truth and logic.
To Used2BAnonymous I say that for me it was, and still is, the word "resist" that serves to distinguish traditionalist Catholics in the Used2BAnonymous sense from other Catholics. That may not have been Dominick's reason; but he is as much entitled to change his mind as Used2BAnonymous, who now, it seems, has changed his mind about his previous acceptance of a summary without "the following section".
Lima 06:46, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Both contain the same opening. Perhaps this hybrid works:
"Traditionalist Catholic" and "traditional Catholic" are terms that some use to refer to Roman Catholics who would like to see the worship and customs of the Roman Catholic Church return to those before the reforms of the 1960s.
This would refer to Catholics who pursue the preservation of the Mass liturgy and preserve all the other sacramental rites used before the reforms of the 1960s. While traditionalists differ in what they consider to have changed, all agree that either the emphasis or teaching of the Church have changed to some unacceptable degree.
Dominick (ŤαĿĶ) 11:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Presenting only an inclusive idea of traditionalist Catholics, Dominick's proposal of 11:17 today ignores the existence of the exclusive idea that Used2BAnonymous considers to be the only true one (one he finds it difficult to define clearly). I think the summary should indicate the existence of both strongly held ideas, in terms as precise and unambiguous as possible. Lima 12:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I was trying to simply include both PoV in the summary, and show there is a conflict there, between inclusive and exclusive. I must beg to differ Lima. I can't ignore what isn't defined clearly. So far all I can tell is there is some vague critera for being "traditional" enough, I must have failed to make a good reference. Dominick (ŤαĿĶ) 13:11, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I do not see it stated in what you have written that there are some who have a more exclusive understanding of "traditionalist Catholic" and who think that not everyone included in your (inclusive) description of traditionalist Catholics is indeed a traditionalist Catholic. Yes, Used2BAnonymous has not yet come up with a clear definition acceptable to himself (although I would have thought that his words inserted in DSL3 were not only clear but exact), but perhaps in one of these days or weeks or months he will. Lima 15:02, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
OK try:
"Traditionalist Catholic" and "traditional Catholic" are terms that some use to refer to Roman Catholics who would like to see the worship and customs of the Roman Catholic Church return to those before the reforms of the 1960s.
This universally refers to Catholics who pursue the preservation of the Mass liturgy and preserve all the other sacramental rites used before the reforms of the 1960s. The exact definition of what constitutes a traditionalist differ among different groups of traditionalists; groups differ in what they consider to have changed, even though all agree that either the emphasis or teaching of the Church have changed to some unacceptable degree.
Debating the issue didn't help lets edit til we come upon an equilibrium. Dominick (ŤαĿĶ) 17:19, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
What can "we" edit and how, without Used2BAnonymous? When I dial up my ISP again some time tomorrow, there may be some reaction from him to a) the formulation of DSU5; b) the drawbacks I have again mentioned in trying to include in a definition a reference to a yet undetermined "following section"; c) Dominick's proposal. Lima 18:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
- What's this with the idea that I can't "define clearly" what I mean by "traditionalist Catholic"? The entire "following section" lays it out nicely. You just don't like the idea of referring to the "section below" for some reason -- it seems because you think that it means "You can't know what it means until you read the following section." But what it "says" is that there are definite beliefs involved, beliefs that are much too involved to describe in 6 words. Film at 11. It's also been said that your side doesn't want to write a "blank check" regarding the "Traditionalist Beliefs" section -- but the present list is pretty much as it has been for a couple of years or so, I believe, and can be worked through as it's gotten to. The fact remains that the second group of Catholics believe that either Vatican II itself or interpretations of its documents have ushered in a veritable revolution in the presentation of Church teaching. They know what they mean by this. Their criticisms can be found all over the Internet.
- Again, what Dominick is trying to do is to wish away the entire second group of Catholics -- the very Catholics about whom the entry was made, and the same Catholics who refer to themselves and are, the immense majority of the time, referred to as "traditionalist Catholics" --- and turn the entire page into a debate. He should write his rebuttals and put them in the "Relations with other Catholics" section instead of trying to take over the entire entry and turn it into one about a group of Catholics who rarely refer to themselves as "traditionalists" and are rarely referred to as "traditionalists."
- And Dominick, most of the Catholics of the first definition aren't concerned about "all the other sacramental rites"; they concern themselves with only the Mass most of the time.
- Hmmm, maybe the summary should go like this:
- In the loosest, less common sense of the phrase, "traditional Catholics" refer to Roman Catholics who would like to see the worship and practices of the Catholic Church return to those from before the 1960 reforms.
- In the more restrictive and common sense of the term, and the way in which the term is used in this article, traditional Catholics (or "traditionalist Catholics") are Roman Catholics who seek to preserve (and restore, where wanting) the Mass and other Sacramental rites in use before the post-Vatican II liturgical revisions, and to preserve the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church in a manner that earns them the undying hatred of mainstream Catholics.
I presume Used2BAnonymous is not serious in his latest proposal, which for that reason I will call not DSU6, but DSU6(?). So I will not go into details about it except to say that, apart from the point-of-view "less common" and "more common" - we can agree that in controversy the Used2BAnonymous meaning or something like is more common, but it seems that the ordinary general public normally includes in the term the so-called "indult" traditionalists (or, if you prefer the expression, the Dominick-style traditionalists)- DSU6(?) has advantages over DSU5, which, I take it, is really Used2BAnonymous's real choice at present.
DSU5 can become clear, only when it is clear what will be in "the following section". Used2BAnonymous seems at times to treat his version of it as almost untouchable. Yet only a short time ago the part of it that is an attack on the beliefs of other Catholics was, in minimally shorter form, given as a separate section headed something like "Attitude towards the Second Vatican Council". In the new agreed overall structure, that negative part belongs to "Relations with other Catholic groups", the place indicated also for treating relations (in both directions) with inclusive-sense traditionalists, as Used2BAnonymous has, now for the fifth time, told Dominick.
I mention this only in the hope that Used2B will see that including a still undecided "following section" in the summary is indeed problematic. I do not think it appropriate to discuss it in detail, as long as the topic of discussion is still the summary.
Lima 04:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
The more Used2BAnonymous tries to push his idea that the only traditionalist Catholics are those who fit his definition, the more ridiculous I am beginning to find his pretensions, and the more too I am beginning to think that, after all, Dominick is right in his basic idea. I have hitherto supported a viewpoint different from Dominick's, not out of conviction, but merely in the hope that it might prove acceptable to Used2BAnonymous. Used2BAnonymous is forcing me to think more deeply about what is true and right.
Used2BAnonymous wants the article to be solely about traditionalist Catholics who subscribe to a largely negative or protest-ant (not Protestant) profession of faith that pleases him. But the article is not titled "Traditional Catholic in Used2BAnonymous's sense". The title is "Traditionalist Catholic". Not even Used2BAnonymous denies that the term "traditionalist Catholic" is in fact used of people who do not fit his definition. He says it is only used in this inclusive way by Dominick, Phatmass ... (if forced, he would admit step-by-step increments to the list), but not by his exclusive-sense traditionalists. But of course: it is mere tautology to say that exclusive-sense traditionalist Catholics use the term "traditionalist Catholic" only in the exclusive sense.
I am within an ace of concluding that, if the article is to be about traditionalist Catholics, it should exclude none of them; and that, if Used2BAnonymous wants an article only about traditionalist Catholics in his sense, he should write an article with a title such as "Militant traditionalist Catholics" and transfer there his ideas. After all, Wikipedia has an article on "Roman Catholic Church", precisely to provide for those who want to use the term "Catholic" in a more restricted sense than the senses that are permissible in the articles "Catholic" and "Catholicism".
Dominick, please do not comment on this until Used2BAnonymous has first responded. Even after he does respond, please comment moderately. Perhaps quite unfairly on my part, I find your style at times too combative and impatient, and you might thus prevent me from completing what you might call my "conversion" to your point of view.
Lima 08:17, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
If Dominick accepts the following as corresponding with his idea, I will give my support to it instead of to DSL3. It can then be referred to as DSDL, or whatever Pathoschild chooses.
"Traditionalist Catholic" and "traditional Catholic" are terms used to refer to Roman Catholics who want to see the worship and customs of the general body of Roman Catholics return to those prevailing before the reforms of the 1960s.
Many of them claim that, since then, the presentation and the understanding of the Church's teaching have changed, at least in emphasis, to an unacceptable degree; and some exclude from the meaning of the two terms those whose views on this matter are less strong.
Lima 10:37, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
- The reason I believe that the second definition -- the definition the article is about -- should refer to "the following section" is because I know exactly what will happen if it doesn't: Dominick will intrude in there and try to turn the article into one about Catholics of the first definition. The "rad trad integrist traditionalists" is what this article is about, and Dominick has made his hatred for such people very clear. He wants to debate throughout the entire article instead of listing his objections in the "Relations with other Catholics" section.
- I think it is also important to refer to "the following section" because, for the second group, beliefs are involved. It's not just a matter of wanting the traditional Mass and Sacraments; it's also a matter of wanting doctrine preserved in a way that Dominick and others of his type see as "Pope-bashing" and "Vatican-hating." Because beliefs are involved -- and because we can't describe such Catholics as wanting:
- to "preserve Catholic doctrine" (Dominick: "I do, too!) or
- "preserve doctrine in the same way it was understood before Vatican II" (Dominick: "Hey, that's me! Nothing's changed in how people understand Catholic doctrine! Isn't it obvious? Look around you!"), or
- "to preserve Catholic doctrine in such a way that, in actual fact, is consistent with traditional Catholic teaching" (Dominick: "That's me, too! Popes have always prayed in synagogues!"), etc.
then it seems that referring to "the section below," even in parenthetically, makes it clear that a) beliefs are involved, and b) those beliefs are complicated. Besides, a listing of such beliefs per my proposal that went on about "ecclesiology, soteriology," etc., was met with something to this effect: "Used2BAnonymous CAN'T be serious."
- In addition, the Catholics of Dominick's definition -- and who are not generallly called "traditionalist Catholics -- are NOT ignored in this article. They are listed first (you want to expand that first paragraph and say that they dont believe presentation of Catholic teaching has changed and they worship in ordinary diocesan structures at Masses offered by indult through Priestly Society X, Y, B? Fine.) They are also included in those who attend Masses offered by indult and who worship in ordinary diocesan structures. And their opinions can go in the "Relations with other Catholics" section. I have asked Dominick how he would write an article if it were only about such Catholics, and he has said nothing. I suspect that it's because there is nothing to say about them. They're just Catholics who like the traditional Mass. Used2BAnonymous 16:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Since Used2BAnonymous insists on "the following section", I will now revise the article, to see if Used2BAnonymous will still want "the following section" mentioned in the summary. Lima 21:05, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
- Obviously it would make no sense to refer to "the following section" as explaining traditionalist beliefs if you move that section down so it doesn't explain traditionalist beliefs. It would no more make sense to do that than for me to go to the section just before your section "How 'official' or 'mainstream' Catholics view the traditionalists just described" and change it to a talk about Lutherans. 22:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
So we now agree that referring in the summary to "the following section" makes no sense, unless what is to be in the following section is first decided. Lima 05:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)