Dispute Notices etc.
This article now reads like an advert written by 2 exile employees, demonstrating the exile's policy of using the internet to harass innocent people. It should be made clear that the exile is in the business of libel, as described in the editors own book "The eXile: Sex, Drugs and Libel in the New Russia."
I don't think that anybody will believe anything written here now. It is not just the unreadable exile style, but also THE "FACTS" ARE CLEARLY IN DISPUTE.
e.g. in the section that libels me, the text does not agree with the sources quoted. (Bizarre as it may seem, the current editor of the exile seems to be trying to libel Mark Ames). I cannot edit something this bizarre and unbelievable - and I'm sure the 2 exile employees would just revert over it in any case.
e.g. Congressman Bonilla asked the Russian government to prosecute Mark Ames and the exile for forgery, not for "a prank." Klebnikov has absolutely no relevance to this section.
e.g. Every mention of "prank," with one possible exception, actually refers to a criminal act. The gulf between "crime" and "prank" is unlikely to be bridged in this forum.
e.g. a large percentage of the so-called contributors are clearly ficticious.
e.g. exile does NOT maintain a COMPLETE archive of all articles published since 19xx. Some have been deleted or are otherwise inaccessible.
e.g. Ames's and the exiles's conviction for libel needs to be added in order to make any sense of what they are talking about. See http://www.pbfc.org/Oldnews/may02/may02.html#02may29a
The clear bias is in every paragraph and is only multiplied by the numerous
errors of fact. The article is unsalvagable and nobody will believe it.
Sincerely, Peter D. Ekman
- First of all, 69.253.195.228, allow me to make a few humble suggestions. On wikipedia it is customary to put new material on a discussion page at the bottom, and to put a title (as I have done) so that it will show up in the table of contents. Also it would help to create an account, especially if you want to sign your name with any credibility (I'm not sure if Comcast shares ip adresses among its customers). If you want anyone to believe that you are Peter Ekman, prove it (e.g. mention these edits on a business website, photograph yourself editing wikipedia, etc.).
- I think your points here are generaly quite good and I will incorporate them at once. Wikipedia has a "be bold" policy, and you don't have to mention your suggestions before you make them. There's also no need to put a factual dispute notice when you can just correct the errors. A few individual things:
- in what way does the Ekman section not agree with works cited?
- is there any conclusive verifiable proof that any contributors are fictitious? this is an issue that has appeared before on this discussion page (see the history), and the consensus reached at that time was not to assert this without proof. such theories are further discussed on the respective pages where appropriate (e.g. Denis Salnikov, Gary Brecher).
- what conviction for libel? do you have a source?
- what articles are not available online? do you have a title or a broken link? don't forget to try their legacy archive.
- what pranks were criminal acts in the jurisdcitions where they took place? and why can't a criminal act be a prank (e.g. toilet papering someone's house is obviously illegal as tresspasing)?
- Otherwise I generally agree. Thanks for doing the research, don't be afraid to edit the page yourself (as long as you don't start indiscriminately blanking again), and keep up the good work! Dsol 17:34, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
A section about a spat between the eXile and Peter Eckman is not encyclopedic I would suggest that regardless of your opinion of Peter Eckman or Johnson's Russia List, including two paragraphs about this alleged incident anywhere in the encyclodepia, even here in the Exile article, far overstate the importance of the spat. Made 'during a visit from Ekman's mother-in-law'?! It just makes us all look bad. At best--if those with knowlege of The Exile think it is an important event in the paper's history--it deserves two sentences in the 'pranks' section or something. To repeat Tiabbi's comments ('balding' etc.) is, from the point of view of an impartial observer, childish and petty; it is also inherently not NPOV.
--Squibix 14:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Please do not DELETE items in this discussion. Peter D. Ekman
The message following this one was certainly not written by me, Peter D. Ekman. The user "Peter D. Ekman" is not the real person Peter D. Ekman. That user's message just shows how low some people will go to impose their viewpoint on others.
Sincerely, the real Peter D. Ekman
- I blocked this account, since we have a policy against impersonating other users. Everyone, jeesh, some civility! — brighterorange (talk) 13:34, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
***** Dear Editors of the eXile page,
I would like to formally apologize for my recent crusade against the eXile wikipedia entry. I became clouded with rage and acted irrationally because of my contentious history with this publication. By attempting to delete this page multiple times, by obnoxiously reverting, by marginalizing links to the eXile entry from other pages, and by concocting outlandish and false charges of libel, I commited many wrongs. I now realize that I did more than hurt the exile: I hurt the wikipedia community. I have violated several wikipedia policies and betrayed the trust wikipedia places in the everyman. For this I am deeply sorry.
I now realize that I cannot get my way just by childishly reverting the article and making empty threats of legal action. I must communicate to others with respect in order to be respected. You can be sure that I will act accordingly in the future.
Sincerely,
Peter D. Ekman****
Please keep the obvious libel off this page. I believe that I have gone through all the proper channels to have this removed, and that the removal of an obvious libel is completely in sinq with Wikipedia policy.
Thanks, Peter D. Ekman
- I disagree. Blanking entire sections is not a proper channel, nor in sync with wikipedia practices. As an easy criticism: you removed the section about the eXile book, but this doesn't appear to have anything to do with the "libel" you claim exists. This and the repeated bad-faith nominations to AfD (1, 2) indicate a clear vendetta against the eXile, which is not surprising given who you are. However, wikipedia is not a place to push one's own personal agenda, and I think you'll find many people here are in fact encouraged into vigilance by attempts to censor content. The repeated blanking is thus not only non-productive and not in line with the wikipedia spirit, but probably counter-productive to your goals!
- As for the libel being "obvious", I and others just don't see it that way. It seems to me that the section simply reports on something that the eXile has published, and that you have denied. Elaborating on why you think this is libelous, or (much better) improving the text so that it is agreeable to everyone, would be a much better way to proceed. Most of us are interested in building a comprehensive encyclopedia, not in personally attacking you. — brighterorange (talk) 01:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- I also disagree. No one is doing anything to this article to spite you. Don't turn this into a personal matter. There is information on wikipedia that you don't like. If you want to improve it, by all means go ahead and do so. If it's inaccurate, provide proof. If you consider something libelous, support your allegations. But considering that this entire time you've been absolutely alone in all your allegations, I would suggest trying to get some sort of consensus on the talk page before touching the main article in the future. Remember, it's not up to you to decide what is up on wikipedia or not. It's up to the community. Not one single person has agreed with your edits, or supported your point of view so far. Like you said, you did go through all the proper channels, in addition to the improper ones; and all of them turned you down. Didn't they?
Images
 | It is requested that an image or photograph of The eXile be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible. The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Can we use one of the covers on the website? I'm guessing they're copyrighted Dsol 16:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Necessary Content
I see a number of things that I think we should to add to this article. 1) I think we need to have some more representative links to eXile material.
2) the pranks section is desperately in need of information since it doesn't come close to describing the spirit of the eXile. We at least need to talk about: a) Hitting New York Timesman Michael Wines in the face with a horse semen filled cream pie. b) the meta-prank where the eXile accepted responsibility for a notorious bogus fax that it didn't send and earned condemnation from US Represenative Bonilla. c) The Buns McGillicuddy "Touch my Buns" prank where an eXile intern successfully posed as an international nightclubbing celebrity. d) The Gorbechev/New York Jets prank. . . There are some other ones, too, but I can't think of them right now.
3) an Enemies list detailing those with whom the eXile has a contentious relationship with: Michael McFaul, Michael Bass, Michael Wines, Fred Hiatt, Victor Davis Hanson, ... this list is actually very long now that I think about it.
Regarding
- "The accusations of fascism were discounted by many in part because of the eXile's Jewish roots - Ames, along with the eXile's publisher, deputy editor and several contributors are all Jews - and because of the paper's satirical editorial bent"
I agree that this info should go in, but it sounds kind of like opinion (espcially the "by many") and should be sourced. Also I think the main point is satire, not the fact that someone is Jewish (anyone can be a fascist). On another note, I intend to add some more to this section when I have time. Dsol 17:43, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Vote for Deletion
This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 07:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
It survived a second nomination as well. — brighterorange (talk) 01:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Salnikov/Brecher
Regarding the recent change by 212.46.255.138, I don't see why the fact that the identities of Brecher and Salnikov are dispute should be left out. I'm reverting in 24 hrs if no explanation, till then realphabetizing the list. Dsol 13:40, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
RE: Salnikov/Brecher
In answer to above, it makes this alleged "dispute" the primary important piece of information on these two. The "dispute" in each case is almost non-existent in the larger body of web discussion on them, though it does arise in perhaps 1% of the total info out there or less. More accurate to keep this "dispute" to each one's page, rather than making it the primary relevant bit that distinguishes them.
- The larger body of web discussion on them? The fact is that absolutely nothing concrete is known about either. I don't mind leaving it as it is for now, but after cleaning up Brecher's article a bit and making one for Salnikov, I'd like to revisit this issue later. At the very least we might put a footnote on their names. Dsol 11:58, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Edits by Clarence Thomas
Great work overall. Especially the extra pranks etc., I'm glad someone did this as I've been meaning to for a while but way too lazy. Two minor changes I'm going to make though 1)Rename "Johnson's Russia List" Prank to Ekman Prank, the list plays only a minor role 2)Take out the links to the articles for sexist, otherwise objectionable, etc. If someone has made a statement that those articles are those things, then we need a link to that statement. To make an unsourced blanket statement about sexism etc. and back it up with links to eXile articles is orignal research.
I also would like to add the Combed Over prank [1] if I have time. Dsol 15:10, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the links on "sexist, racist, otherwise objectionable":
Basically, I think the exile isn't so much "sexist" or "racist" as it is rude, blunt, and willing to use stereotypes when they fit. There's a reactionary association with the labels "sexist" and "racist" and this clearly isn't the case here. I think people should be provided with specific examples of the kinds of content that people might find objectionable so they can decide for themselves.
Libel
I deleted the inacurate and libelous material about me in this article. I think the whole article should be deleted as it is just an advert for a very low class newspaper. I deleted the listing of the exile's book, this was pure advertisement. Sincerely, Peter Ekman
- Dear Mr. Ekman,
- I restored the content in reference to you since the article clearly describes the eXile's allegations about you as such, and qualifies them with adjectives such as "unsubstantiated" and "unverified." Since the article is merely describing what the eXile said without making any claims, implicit or explicit, about the eXile's accuracy, the wikipedia article cannot be libelous.
- As you know, whether or not a subject is "very low class" or not does not determine the subject's suitability for Wikipedia. Since the article survived a vote for deletion last summer (100% voting to keep) I believe it has been established that the eXile magazine is a worthy subject. If you think there are problems with the eXile article, then why not help us write a better one? That seems to me like a constructive way to handle your objections.
- We welcome your help.
Repeating a libel and then saying - of course this is unfounded and has no justification, we're just reporting what was said - is simply a ruse. There is no purpose for including the statement, except to continue the libel. If a statement libels somebody and is unfounded then it should be deleted. The entire purpose of the exile is "Sex, Drugs, and Libel" according to the title of it's own editors' book. I will pursue this, through the proper channels until the libel is permanently removed. I'm sure Wikipedia has lawyers, who will recognize the statement in question as libel, so you will lose. The libel will be permanently removed.
- Mr Peter Ekman,
- Wikipedia has a policy against the use of legal threats, so I hope you will instead abide by Wikipedia's policies for resolving disputes. I believe we can work out any differences on this page.
- Let me address your concerns regarding libel. Libel has a legal defintion, and this definition specifically excludes facts from being considered libelous. This definition is not "a ruse," this is a well-established legal precedent. If you cannot find factually incorrect claims being made by the article itself, then I would ask that you cease accusing the authors of this page of illegal conduct.
- If you can find libelous statements, please correct only those statements without eliminating swaths of valuable content. Since we seem to disagree about what constitutes libel, it would be constructive for you to explicitly list the offending claims here in the talk page. I believe this will expedite a resolution.
- Finally, this article has already survived a vote for deletion a few months back. If you cannot demonstrate why the previous vote was flawed, then I am going to ask you to stop trying to delete this page.
- Again, we invite you to make constructive contributions to our resource, but please respect the rules of Wikipedia and of other Wikipedians.
I've made no legal threats here, I've simply identified an obvious case of libel. I will continue to try to work through the Wikipedia system. I haven't "eliminated swaths of valuable content" - only about 2 paragraphs of pure libel that have something like "of course this is completely unsubstantiated" appended at the end. Very clearly the wording of this section is a transparent ruse, used to pretend that it is a statement of fact. Since the personal attack is completely unsubstantiated, I believe that Wikipedia rules say that it should be deleted.
I am under no obligation to dignify an obvious case of libel, by trying to refute
individual parts of the whole. The whole thing is libel, unsubstantiated, unverifiable, and untrue.
- Mr. Peter Ekman,
- I am going to insist that you abide by the Three Revert Rule. You have made seven revisions to the eXile page in the past day. This is becoming egregious. Please note that violating the three revert rule is grounds for being banned from wikipedia.
- You claim that you are under no obligation to "dignify" an "obvious case of libel." Mr. Ekman, we are governed by consensus here. You do have an obligation to justify your actions, especially when these actions are called into question. We expect anybody who makes accusations of criminal libel against other wikipedia authors to, at the very least, be able to name the libel they believe took place.
A section about a spat between the eXile and Peter Eckman is not encyclopedic
I would suggest that regardless of your opinion of Peter Eckman or Johnson's Russia List, including two paragraphs about this alleged incident anywhere in the encyclodepia, even here in the Exile article, far overstate the importance of the spat. Made 'during a visit from Ekman's mother-in-law'?! It just makes us all look bad. At best--if those with knowlege of The Exile think it is an important event in the paper's history--it deserves two sentences in the 'pranks' section or something. To repeat Tiabbi's comments ('balding' etc.) is, from the point of view of an impartial observer, childish and petty; it is also inherently not NPOV.
--Squibix 14:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
- As I mentioned on the talk page for Mark Ames, removal of information is not a good way to achieve NPOV. The eXile's pranks are one of the most important facets of its history. It is absolutely innapropriate to leave them out. If you think the style is wrong, then rewrite it yourself without taking out information. Also the comment "if those with knowledge of the eXile" is surprising...if you don't know and haven't read it or about it at least somewhat, then don't edit this article -- this is wikipedia policy (Wikipedia:Contribute what you know or are willing to learn more about). Dsol 18:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- I concur with Dsol. The attempt to obtain NPOV by Squibix eliminated some important information such as the tone of the periodical, what the millions of eXile readers enjoy about the periodical, as well as how the periodical is disregarded by it's detractors. I also concur with Squibix that the Ekman paragraph is poorly written. It's summary under the pranks section is far too long. Nor does the contentious exchange between Mr. Ekman and the eXile constitute a prank in any way. The eXile wasn't joking when they claimed that Ekman was a philander who sexually propositioned their leggy blonde secretary; they were being dead serious.
Clarence Thomas 18:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- In some cases, removal of information is the only way to achieve NPOV. From what I was able to determine from the sources available to me, this particular interpersonal conflict is non-notable and unverifiable, and therefore doesn't belong in the encyclopedia. Furthermore, even assuming that The Exile is itself notable--which it was determined to be in the AfD debate--it seems to me that this particular episode is not.
- You'll notice I made no attempt to edit it; if you can manage to make it sound like something more than the gloating of Exile fans who don't like Peter Eckman, and also demonstrate its relevence and notability, more power to you. Otherwise, I'll continue to think that it's unencylopedic, and a detriment to Wikipedia. - Squibix 01:00, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- With the notion that NPOV must under any circumstances be achieved by omission I disagree wholeheartedly. That was the gist of the RfD debate, and there's no need to rehash that debate over every particular facet of the eXile's existence. The key issue as to inclusion of information is notability, as I mentioned above it is only the presentation of this information that must be acheived by NPOV means. This episode is notable not only because of the controversy it generated, but because it is such an exemplar of the eXile style which establishes the newspaper's readership and notability in the first place.
- The issue of verifiability you raise is an important concern, but I think a misplaced one. Have you read the original article at the heart of this scandal? The important fact is not that Ekman groped a secretary (I personally doubt if he ever did), but that the eXile printed this claim! This latter assertion is not only trivial to verify, but also quite notable. Notable in that it exemplifies the eXile's style, and notable in that it could not have been dared in a US publication. The issue of verifiability is thus one of context: the whole scandalous episode would be unthinkable in an encyclopedia article about Eckman, and yet here it is essential. To say otherwise is really just to repeat the argument from the failed VfD, that the eXile is in such bad taste that it has no place in an encyclopedia. The consensus was against that argument in general before, and I'm confident it will be so in the particulars again.
- Finally (such a long winded argument for such an insignifcant subject!) I admit that the connection between these pranks and the overall eXile style is less than crystal clear. I intend to add a "journalistic style" section to the page in the moderately near future which should make clear what I think is already obvious to the eXile's devoted readers and haters. Dsol 01:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- After I read "Peter Ekman Groped Me," I personally had little doubt that Peter Ekman made sexual advances towards the secretary of the Exile. The accusations are entirely credible. Furthermore, Ekman's behaviour on wikipedia has entirely vindicated the Exile's portrayal of Ekman as a petty, vindictive, and passive-aggressive man.
===========
I think this question has been decided. No libel. Some civility on this page is requested. And there has to be something notable - not just repeating a lame attempt to trash my reputation.
Sincerely, Peter D. Ekman
- Peter, nobody ever agreed with you there ever was any libel on the page. Even the wikipedians who are most sympathetic to you have explicitly maintained that no libel ever took place. You assertion that "this question [of libel] has been decided" is a feeble attempt to assert concensus is on your side by playing make-believe. The only point ever to be seriously considered in this discussion is how relevant the Peter Ekman section is, a point that, coincidentally, wasn't made by you. If I was a former "Financial Editor" of the Moscow Times, I would feel rather sad that I was relying on anonymous wikipedians to provide a cogent argument for my position. Clarence Thomas 18:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- I think this guy might just be the genuine article! I took him for a random troll before, but his ip resolves to Comcast in Aston, Pennsylvania, only about 2 hours from where he teaches (his students complained about him to the eXile) in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania. Welcome to Wikipedia, Mr. Ekman, if that's who you in fact are! But I don't see you anywhere on ship.edu, and you're not in the Faculty directory. So why are you still in Aston Pennsylvania? What are you up to these days? Dsol 17:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Recent edit war
First of all, to whoever in Aston PA keeps reveting the page, please if you must use your 3 daily reverts, only revert relevant material. There's plenty of new stuff in there without any bearing on your issue, so please edit more carefully. The last edits have taken out unrelated material; this is vandalism as per wikipedia policy. Also it is quite clear that a opinions should be taken for what to do about the Peter Ekman section, obviously as its author I would:
- Keep in all present info, though open to stylistic changes. It may seem a small point to make, but I don't think cencorship concessions should be made in these cases. I concur with the comments of Brightorange and 24.168.5.223 above regarding the question of libel, but in any case I don't think Wikipedia:Libel could even remotley apply here, since quoting a libeleous source as "an allegation" is not libel under US or Florida law (the policy stems from legal issues). This particular scandal could probably be substituded for another to give the same effect, but random individuals have no right to censor wikipedia because it does not aggree with them (Wikipedia:Content disclaimer). As for verification, I think that reading the policy page should convince anyone that the article makes no "unverifiable" claims about it's subject or anything else. Finally, on the subject of relevance, I think that even if the eXile had made a statement that was libelous in american jurisdictions (not the case here), that only would add to the statement's relevancy in an eXile article, e.g. “We were out of the reach of American libel law, and we had a situation where we weren’t really accountable to our advertisers. We had total freedom,” --Matt Taibbi ([2]). A description of this view ultimately needs to figure more into the article, not less..Dsol 21:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- ...
I would like to hear further opinions about what to be done about this. In the meantime I reiterate, don't revert unrelated sections of the page, as this is Wikipedia:Vandalism. Oh and please Sign your posts on talk pages Dsol 21:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- 69.253.195.228, The latest revert comes with the title "leave out libel, take out pure opinions, filler." First of all, I don't see how most of the removed material (e.g. extended list of contributors, Taibbi's early role as editor, prediction of debt default, existence of detractors...) could be counted as any of these 3. Second, wikipedia works via consensus, not edit wars. Please state your opinion clearly, and explain why you think your version is better. You have already violated the 3RR rule and continue to glibly remove contect without adding anything to the article or even justifying yourself in more than a few buzzwords. I and others have assumed good faith and tried to engage in meanigful dialogue, but to no avail. There are measures to restrict this kind of behavior, but our administrators are busy enough, and I hope this can be settled by a consensus that involves you. Dsol 01:17, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi. It appears that Mr. Ekman has been banned for the next 24 hours or so and I hope everybody that has been entangled in this article can take advantage of this time to make the eXile article a more comprehensive and more concise work. My goal is to one-day improve this article to the highest standard of wikipedia as "featured article".
Our first priority should be resolving residual issues with Ekman as best as we can without sacraficing content. I'm going to attempt to rewrite the Ekman section and I invite others to assist me. I think the Ekman episode needs to be clear and brief and its relevance to the rest of the eXile needs to be obvious. I hope we can avoid future revert wars. I think it's a shame how much effort we are wasting quibbling on the discussion page when we could be adding to the resource. Clarence Thomas
- Definitely with you there. I filled in the Michael Bass section, McFaul should be next...I really think that sections on style and ideology would help a lot, and that the rest of the article would seem less disjointed that way. Hopefully I'll have the energy to do this soon. Dsol 02:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
==
A section about a spat between the eXile and Peter Eckman is not encyclopedic I would suggest that regardless of your opinion of Peter Eckman or Johnson's Russia List, including two paragraphs about this alleged incident anywhere in the encyclodepia, even here in the Exile article, far overstate the importance of the spat. Made 'during a visit from Ekman's mother-in-law'?! It just makes us all look bad. At best--if those with knowlege of The Exile think it is an important event in the paper's history--it deserves two sentences in the 'pranks' section or something. To repeat Tiabbi's comments ('balding' etc.) is, from the point of view of an impartial observer, childish and petty; it is also inherently not NPOV.
--Squibix 14:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Please do not DELETE items in this discussion. Peter D. Ekman