Wikipedia

Talk:First Crusade

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by John K (talk | contribs) at 06:17, 4 November 2005 (→the first holocaust). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Latest comment: 19 years ago by John Kenney in topic the first holocaust

Template:Featured article is only for Wikipedia:Featured articles. Template:Mainpage date

Featured on Dec. 27 2004

Spoken Wikipedia I thought about nominating also. It would require reading the "Main article"'s as well, IMO, since they contain the real story, otherwise it would be a brief treatment hard to say how valuable it would be.Stbalbach 16:29, 29 May 2005 (UTC)Reply

Full of Errors

I teach college courses on the crusades and will try to edit this page if I find time. As it stands it is completely misleading, and seems to reflect Terry Jones' views in the BBC documentary series on the crusades. The same seems to be true for other pages on the crusades.

Sample errors

1. The Battle of Manzikert was in 1071, not 1074.

2. There is no evidence Gregory VII was thinking about "reunion" as the date of 1054 for the Schism of east and western Christianity is purely notional.

3. Urban II had no idea he was calling a "crusade" [the word and its cognates was not used until the end of the 12th century - at the time the expeditions were called "iter" /journey or "peregrinatio"/pilgrimage.

4. The cry at Clermont was "Deus le volt1"

5. The pope had never read the Qur'an (it was not availble in Latin until Peter the Venerable had it translated it in the mid 12th century). The indulgence (the word "plenary" was not used, and in fact belongs to the development of the theology of indulgences in the mid 13th century) does not echo any Qur'anic notions. [Most Mulsim notions of Jihad derive from discussions among Sharia jurists rather than the Qur'an in any case.]

6. There is no evidence whatsoever that younger sons were attracted to the crusades for economic reasons. Painstaking research by historians such as J. Riley-Smith has shown that whole aristocratic families put themselves into debt to support members going on the expedition. When Jerusalem was conquered, almost 90% of the survivors returned home. Venice, Genoa, and Pisa had almost nothing to do with the First Crusade. The great trade advantages to these cities really only emerged in the 13th century - i.e. after the loss of Jerusalem by the Crusaders and the establishment of the rump Kingdom in Acre.

7. Many of the "peasants" in the people's crusade were in fact lower level knights. Given the extent of tied labor, most peasants could not simply get up and leave. At the most, the armies were around 50,000-60,000 - a miniscule percentage of the population.

8. "Fanatical bands" is definitely not NPOV.

9. Peter's armies were quite well organized. How else could such a group be marched all the way to Constantinople? The provisioning alone was a major daily achievement - mostly done by purchase from local merchants, along with some robbery.

10. Peter's armies did not massacre Jews. Emerich's did.

11. Peter's army was quite well armed. See the chronicle of Albert of Aachen on this.

12. Peter's army reached Constantinople more or less intact. Alexius I Comnenus arranged for its transport to Asia Minor. Then, at a battle outside Nicea (100 miles from CP), many of the People's Crusade members were defeated in battle.

13. The pope did not call for the killing of Jews, as noted. However, there were massacres of Jews in later Crusades, specifically the 2nd Crusade.

14. I don't know of any account that says Jews were burned in a synagogue in Jerusalem. The account of blood running ankle deep on the Temple Mount is a literary hyperbole.

15. The Knights Hospitallers existed before the Crusades as a pilgrims' help organization.

Well you are certainly encouraged to fix errors, but I have a few questions/comments on some of your points: 2: Why is 1054 "purely notional"? That's when the Pope and Patriarch excommunicated each other, and was the Papacy not looking to heal that schism? 3: It's an historical convention to refer to it as a crusade...surely we are not going to say "he called for an iter". (They didn't call it the "Great Schism" in 1054, either...) 4: I have seen it written in Latin (Deus vult), Old French (Deus lo/le volt) and even modern French - do we really know what they said, or if they ever said that at all? Was Urban preaching in (Old) French, or Latin? (I assume French!) 15: True, but they weren't established as a military order until afterwards.
I'm sure I'm responsible for many of these errors, and it would be great to have actual scholars working on these crusade articles. I hope you are willing to stick around for awhile! Adam Bishop 18:15, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Now that I look at it again, some of the problems actually come from the original article, which was copied from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica - so naturally it was horribly out of date. (Though I can still see where I have added misleading bits as well.) Adam Bishop 23:12, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Okay, if our anonymous prof is still around, I have tried to rewrite the page, at least the first half (and I'll get to the rest when I have time). I hope it now more accurately reflects recent research. Adam Bishop 03:13, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Poor writing examples:

Horrible example 1

The First Crusade was launched in 1099 to take back Jerusalem from the Muslims, and to help the Byzantine Empire fight the Seljuk Turks.

"Take back?" By who? What does it mean to "take back" something?

Horrible example 2

The number of those who assumed the crusader's cross increased daily, and the movement, soon passing beyond papal restraint, seized upon the lower classes. Peasants exchanged plows for arms and were joined by the dissatisfied, the oppressed, and the outcast; members of the lower clergy, runaway monks, women, and children joined this popular mob, recognizing no leader but God.
  • "The number of those who assumed the crusader's cross??" Good writing for a track - not for an encyclopedia, thanks.
  • If "no leader but God" is to be used -- it needs to be in quotes, with attribution.
"Peter survived however..."
  • "Peter survived however?" What did he "survive"? According to the previous text, he was doing the massacring! LOL

-豎&#30505sv


Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I was writing around the entries before me. I haven't been here that long, but I am under the impression that the point of Wikipedia is to constantly improve on the articles to make them the best they can be - which you have done. But I'm pretty sure that does not include being a jackass at the same time :) Adam Bishop 01:09 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The jackass bit was entirely gratis, no need to thank me -- and yes, the article was incredibly well written except for those few problems I mentioned... perhaps it was the desparity between these that caused me some causation to 'scribe my consternation. :) -豎&#30505sv

I removed this text:

The papacy was concerned by Muslim raids on Sicily (Sicily itself was nominally Muslim). The Pope was unwilling to ask the German emperor for help (as the emperors were traditionally in rivalry with the Papacy), so instead he invited the Normans already in southern Italy to intervene. Robert Guiscard then took control of Sicily, the Pope 'granting' it to him, and it became a tightly-controlled monarchy under the Normans.

It's okay, but the grant was made two years after the start of the Crusade, in 1098. I substituted text about pressing back Muslim boundaries in the central Mediterranean. Wetman 12:02, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Major Edit to Origins

I have Edited boldly, but not too boldly I hope. Much of the material in the "Origins" section more rightly belongs, or is duplicated in, the main Crusades article. At least that's my feeling. Let me know if you think I've been too bold :) Maastrictian 21:51, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Why was the Peace and Truce of God movement removed.. or not moved to the main article? Editing boldy means moving the material to the correct place, not just deleteing it. Peace and Truce of God and the Crusades are the two major institutions enacted by the church to stem noble violence in the High Middle Ages.Stbalbach 03:02, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Moving it to the main article seems the best choice to me at least. I'll do that when I get a chance today. Maastrictian 14:34, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Moved. Maastrictian 19:32, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Oh...sorry. I thought you were just some vandal! I guess you might want to revert my revert, or talk about the changes here first, maybe. Adam Bishop 21:52, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
No problem. I see that I forgot to add a comment to my edit, which probably made me look like even more of a vandal. Sorry for the confusion. Maastrictian 14:34, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Possible "to do" list

To Stbalbach and all others who may be interested, I think this article is progressing to the point where it could be a featured article. But what else needs to be done before that? We now have separate articles for the sieges of Antioch and Jerusalem, but should other bits be expanded in their own separate articles? Such as:

  • Battle of Nicaea - there is plenty of info about it in both Latin and Greek authors, it could easily be a separate article.
  • Battle of Dorylaeum - the info about the battle already exists, in a small summary, at Dorylaeum; perhaps it needs to be moved to a separate battle article, if it is worthy of being expanded.
  • Should any other battles in Asia Minor have articles, or should they just be mentioned here in passing?
  • Should the siege of Arqa and the first battle of Ascalon be treated as separate from the Siege of Jerusalem? (Someone was going to write about the 1153 Battle of Ascalon, a long time ago, I'll have to see if I can find them again - perhaps all the battles there during the crusades can go in one article.)
  • should the crusade of 1101 have a separate article?

Those are the questions I can come up - are there any other issues? Would the present state of the article be any more academically pleasing than the older version the anonymous professor was complaining about above? Is this article and its associated subarticles getting too big, or is plenty of detail a good thing? Adam Bishop 02:17, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Adam, first off, excellent job on Antioch and Jerusalem, very good articles. I was thinking of writing up a more detailed article on the peasants war, have not had the time lately but is on my mental to-do list. All the ideas you mention could easily be expanded on, featured article is a worthy goal. Stbalbach 12:27, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In terms of the article itself, I've not finished, but two points so far - firstly, some more information on the Middle Eastern background/situation would, I think, be a good idea. Currently it's pretty tightly focused on the west. Some discussion of the Seljuk Turks' arrival, the death of Malik Shah in 1092, and the ongoing break-up of the Seljuk Empire (with the various players involved) as the crusaders start to arrive should probably be mentioned. Secondly, the historiographical paragraph on the crusaders' socio-economic background discusses "Hugh," "Raymond," "Godfrey," "Baldwin," and, worst of all, since there were two of them, "Robert" without any mention of who these people are - they are introduced later on in the article. This needs to be fixed. More comments as I get further into it. As to the questions above, the First Battle of Ascalon occurred after Jerusalem fell - it should, I think, have its own article, ideally. The Crusades of 1101 would certainly merit an article as well. john k 06:39, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay, a bit about the Muslim background has been added, with all (I think) the relevant entities (Rüm, Mosul, Aleppo, Damascus, the Danishmends, the Ortuqids, the Hashshashin, the Fatimids). Conveniently there are already articles about most of that stuff. I fixed the paragraph with out-of-context names - that had been lower down before, after their full names were already mentioned. As Wetman suggested, this could really use a map, but I haven't been able to find one in the public ___domain. Adam Bishop 01:48, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Looks good enough to be a featured article but if you really wonder what is absolutely missing you might go re-read the very good Norman conquest article and ponder how the aftermath of this adventure, including the formation of the Angevin empire, fits in with the first crusade. Was the whole of northern france too busy with subjugating the anglo saxons to be bothered with crusading? And what all those other Norman nobles are doing in Italy at the same time? --AlainV 02:04, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, I know it had an effect on who controlled Normany and England - Robert Curthose had to sell Normandy to go on crusade, and while he was gone his brother Henry became king of England. This also led to the Battle of Tinchebrai. But they weren't really subjugating the Anglo-Saxons anymore by that point, were they? Anyway, should we add this somehow? Perhaps in a "effect on Europe" section? Maybe it should go in the Curthose article, it's pretty short right now. As for the Normans in Italy, well, a lot of Bohemund's family went on crusade with him, I don't know what else they were doing in general. Adam Bishop 02:52, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Well, some interpretations of the Robin Hood legend portray him as a Saxon fighting the Norman lords while Richard I of England is off crusading. So that would mean that the place is still not completely pacified. The problem is that I am not sure how to put this in and the article is good enough anyway, even if there are a lot of potential linkages missing. --AlainV 02:28, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That's actually the Third Crusade, but the point is still valid...there was Hereward the Wake, a similar figure, much closer to the Conquest and the First Crusade. Adam Bishop 06:48, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Just wanted to note the progress of related articles - Siege of Nicaea, Battle of Dorylaeum, and Battle of Ascalon now exist. Adam Bishop 20:55, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And now also People's Crusade, thanks to Stbalbach. By the way, I notice on the French wikipedia that they seem to be simultaneously working on their First Crusade articles, but I think independently of us - that's pretty cool. They also have a Crusades wikiproject, maybe we should set up something like that as well. Adam Bishop 01:00, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nice work on the 1101 crusade, I never knew about it, interesting well written article. On the projects, I'm currently interested in medieval history so would be more interested in a general medieval project page. There may be a number of other medievalists around to help draw on more detailed projects once we form a more general group. Just some thoughts. --Stbalbach 08:22, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yeah that's a good idea, there are a few medievalists around in various subjects. Also, thanks to Wetman, there is now also a Chanson d'Antioche article. Adam Bishop 18:25, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Paragraph moves

I just made some structural changes to the article, no content was lost, just paragraphs moved. We want this article (and all the sub-articles) to be a "featured article" and part of that is telling the story of the First Crusade in a compelling and interesting manner. The Crusades is most interesting and compelling when read in chronological order, as a chronology or narrative story. So I moved the academic analysis, which tends to break the narrative, to a seperate section. In this way the reader can read the article and get the whole story of the Crusades, without distraction in the more academic (although important) analysis which is in a seperate section of the article. This should also help keep future editors from breaking the chronology with analysis by having a seperate area to work in. Stbalbach 02:47, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

More re-ordering of paragraphs. Again, idea is to create a section that is a chronical of events, and a section with analysis. Floating the idea out to see how it looks and goes over, not set in stone open to ideas and suggestions. Stbalbach 20:24, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've done some reordering and rewording as well. Now that all the major parts have their own separate articles, and we've extensively rewritten the page, is there anything else we can do? I think everyones' concerns have been dealt with. Should we put it on Featured Article Candidates? It would be nice to have some new eyes looking at this. Adam Bishop 03:52, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes I agree. There are a few more things we could still do; a German crusade article comes to mind, it's the first pogrom and deserves an article (it may allready be, perhaps under a diffrent title or sub-section or name related to Jewish history). It's a good idea to announce and see what recommendations others have. --Stbalbach 06:23, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Oh yeah, that would make a good article. I don't know much about that part, except for what is already here (and in Emicho). What title could we use for that? "German Crusade" can refer to a bunch of other minor crusades so I don't think it would be the best title for a separate article. Anyway, I've added this to the featured article candidate list. Adam Bishop 09:13, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
We need 3 or 4 pictures on the main article page to liven it up. Also an overview map, and perhaps someone who can add arrows showing the routes taken (or if one allready exists in the PD). That would really help to see a map. I've looked around and so far no luck. --Stbalbach 10:51, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Changes: Addressed some concerns by "Ambi" as a "minor object" on the featured article page. Made the opening paragraph high level with few specifics and more generalized, to provide context / meaning. Moved to sub-article or integrated the historian nameing conventions (needs to be there, for search and refrence, but not up-front). --Stbalbach 04:17, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Great! I made German Crusade, 1096 as well - perhaps not the best title, but we can fix that later if necessary. I agree that there should also be more pictures in the article, but I'm not sure what we can use. I can't find any good PD maps online...if we're really desperate I suppose we can draw some lines on a blank map of Europe, but I hope it doesn't come to that! Adam Bishop 01:20, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Cool on the German Crusade. I think the name is NPOV enough and seems to have a historical precedent, unless theres another name more commonly used.

On the Map: Muir's Historical Atlas: (1911) has the exact map we need, which can be seen here .. but, its a clickable format which is no good. There is also this map which is a blank slate to add arrows if we had too. I wonder if theres a way to find the 1911 Muir's map which is in the public ___domain, it must be online somewhere. --Stbalbach 06:59, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Found a map.. it's 712k not sure if that presents a problem, but the print and route arrows are so small its the only way to read it. Still, best map ive seen in terms of route detail.--Stbalbach 08:13, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Define what the crusade was somewhat better in the intro. I'm thinking, "The First Crusade was a religiously-based military campaign launched by Pope Urban II in 1095 that was designed to restore Christian rule to Jerusalem and the Holy Land, which were then ruled by Muslims; this objective was achieved in July 1099." Something along those lines? Everyking 01:57, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A religious military campaign from the pov of the 21st century. For the crusaders, they were pilgrims on a holy mission from god, pilgrims who happened to carry swords, pilgrims who would recieve an automatic ticket to heaven. For the Byzantine Emporer, it was a barbarian invasion. All this is discussed in the article. I don't think we should try to define it in the opening paragraph, it may even escape definition at all, as multiple pov events often do. Rather, summarize and say why it is significant to history on a high level. I do think the article is missing this element: a discussion about why the crusades are significant, the various ideas and theories. However, it belongs in the main Crusades article not the First Crusade. --Stbalbach 07:49, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Point taken, then, but I took it upon myself to expand the intro a bit; hopefully there's nothing wrong with what I added. Everyking 10:34, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What you wrote is fine. Sounds like whats wanted is more bulk in the lead section so I added some for review. --Stbalbach 03:36, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Pope Urban's proclamation at Clermont

I'd just like to add that there is disagreement as to whether Urban ever mentioned Jerusalem at Clermont, and thus this was not necessarily the original aim of the crusade. Commonalities between the accounts of his speech are generally agreed upon, but the earliest accounts do not mention Jerusalem. Later accounts do, but arguably by this point they would have known that the crusade had captured Jerusalem, and thus have claimed that this was the original aim. Jerusalem may have been introduced around 1096 to aid recruitment.

Here is a link to a website that has a few accounts: Medieval Sourcebook

Also, in answer to 'Horrible example 1', it is not so unreasonable to say that the first crusade was launched to 'take back' Jerusalem. Jerusalem was the Holy Land, and was considered formerly owned land. The definition of a 'Just War' was specifically defined by the Church, and thus Christian property that had been proclamed as such by a legitimate authority could be retaken.

--Hugo Thorneycroft 14:24, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi! The various accounts of the council are discussed in the Council of Clermont article (with links to Halsall's website), although if the disagreements aren't adequately discussed in this article, then perhaps we should make that clearer. Adam Bishop 15:19, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nitpicking...

That blank line at the top to make room for the template... not very attractive, huh? --tilde 06:16, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

Final sentence in the lead paragraph

The POV word successful popped out at me when looking at an upcoming Featured Article: the First Crusade. This is just asking for angry reaction from anyone outside of Christendom. Due to the urgency of this, I am unilaterally changing the sense of the sentence to something like the crusades which followed were relative failures. Ancheta Wis 10:33, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC) Please respond or fix the sentence if you wish.

Successful was being used in a neutral sense, I don't think anyone could have seriously interpreted that to mean anything else. However, to avoid political correctness concerns I have re-worded so there is no ambiguity. Stbalbach 17:14, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Jesus! I cannot see how the fall of the Carolingians and the Christianization of Vikings and Magyars led to the Iberian (and not Spanish) Reconquista! It sure looks like TV-history. User:Velho

Well, that's not really what it says, but I suppose it can be taken that way since the paragraphs follow each other. What would you suggest? Adam Bishop 02:58, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Template needed

Since Crusade was essentialy a war, this needs to use the Template:Battlebox, like seen on Polish-Soviet War for example. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would disagree with that for a number of reasons. Stbalbach 17:30, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Them being? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:06, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, again, there's the fact that the Battlebox is for battles, not wars. Will you ever respond to this? john k 02:16, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

But of course. Think of it as an evolution. This template has been designed for battles, but it has been so good that it can be adapted with little trouble to wars, making them more readable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:48, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Plus the Crusades is not a series of battles, nor was it a war, it is a political and social movement that ran across every aspect of society. These were mass migrations of peoples. To tag a battle box on these article makes them in to, well, articles about battles, which they are not (although battles did occur). Not to mention, the Crusaders did not see themselves as fighting a war, they saw themselves as pilgrims. There is a whole section on this in the article, you should read it. To make it into a war with a series of battles is highly POV, it also means you would have "sides" and "winners and loosers" , again, very POV, and not very professional. --Stbalbach 03:48, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, as far as Crusade goes, I am not going to argue strongly for this box, although I'd suggest moving this article from War section of Featured Articles to another then. I don't see POV here, and I do think that things like campaignbox and chronological list of battles (there were battles, weren't they?) would be useful, but I am willing to wait and see if I am alone on this here... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:48, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
We do have battleboxes on the battle articles (and a campaignbox), but as Stbalbach said there is more going on than a series of battles. We discussed moving it out of the War category but no one has gotten around to doing it yet. Adam Bishop 16:52, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's now moved from the "War" category to "History" in the FA list. Stbalbach 05:40, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

siege of Jerusalem

Comments and discussion in relation to characterisation of crusaders displaying 'murderous intent' and related issues is sought. Premise A: such characterisation does not lack NPOV when the killings were in fact intentional and systematic (compare 'evil intent'). Premise B: general characterisation of the accounts of this event as hyperbole (as compared with say, Rev 14:20) may itself lack NPOV to the extent that the brutality and scale of the massacres is discounted (by a draft which does not appropriately note the very real enthusiasm displayed by most crusaders in murdering the inhabitants of Jerusalem). Separately, the main article on the siege should be edited to improve consistency with this article — 21 Feb 2005.

the first holocaust

Latest comment: 19 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

This is standard mainstream stuff, just about every book on the first crusade mentions this phrase. It may or may not be controversial to some people, but it is how the mainstream academics present it. I suppose there is a historiographical history behind it that would be an interesting aside, but this is not the place to explore that in detail. Stbalbach 03:52, 25 July 2005 (UTC)Reply

In all honesty isn't the expulsion of the Jews from Egypt usually given this “honor”? There have been Jewish holocausts prior to the first crusade, and in all honesty far more terrible. Off of the top of my head the Babylon and Roman incursions spring to mind.

Stbalbach, could you cite specific sources other than Riley-Smith that use this phrase? I feel as though I've read a fair amount about the First Crusade without (remembering) coming across the phrase "the first holocaust". It seems like an obnoxious phrase to me, in that it basically seems to be used not because this particular violence against the Jews was especially notable, but because it happened in Germany, the place where the main "Holocaust" occurred. Thus, the purpose doesn't seem to be so much to illuminate anything as it is to suggest that the persecutions in the Rhineland are the direct precursors to the Holocaust 800 years later. I don't see that we have any business pushing that kind of garbage, even if Professor Riley-Smith wants to advance such a dubious proposition. john k 22:12, 9 August 2005 (UTC)Reply
I strongly support John K here. Commenting out that objectionable expression. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 08:34, 11 August 2005 (UTC)Reply


I think its kinda stretching it to suggest that one cause that other, no one says that, that would be very POV. The emphesis is on the "first" ethnic massacre of the Jews in Europe. Here are further references. Ill change the wording so it says "some historians". This is pretty mainstream stuff, Im not aware of any controversy over its usage, given the context in which it is used, its clearly not meant to suggest any connection with the 20th century.

  • Christianity: The First Two Thousand Years

by David Edwards (01 October, 1999) page 124 : " ... leaders were a mixture of nonmilitary visionaries such as Peter the Hermit and extremely military, but ... to Christ, so that their first action was to perpetrate the first holocaust of Jews in European history, in massacres in the Rhineland. ... "

  • The First Crusade and the Idea of Crusading (Middle Ages Series)

by Jonathan Riley-Smith (01 September, 1991) page 50 : " ... where, after taking six weeks to construct a bridge over the river in front of the town, its first assault ended in panic and flight. In what has been called `the first holocaust', most of these armies had begun their marches by persecuting ... "

  • Rick Steves' Europe 101: History and Art for the Traveler (6th Edition)

by Rick Steves and Gene Openshaw (30 October, 2000) page 82 : " ... do. Crossing Germany, they slaughtered Jews. (Some historians call this the First Holocaust.) By the time the crusaders reached Jerusalem, the Moslems had ... "

  • The Complete Idiot's Guide(R) to the Crusades

by Paul Williams and Paul L. Williams (18 October, 2001) page 39 : " ... In This Chapter > Little Peter leads the Crusade of the Poor > The crusaders perpetrate the first holocaust > The wonders of Constantinople dazzle the crusaders > Barbaric ... "

  • When Plague Strikes : The Black Death, Smallpox, AIDS

by James Cross Giblin and David Frampton (30 May, 1997) page 35 : " ... completely wiped out in western Europe. In the meantime, though, the Flagellants had stirred up trouble ... convenient target: the Jews. THE FIRST HOLOCAUST For centuries the Jews of Europe had been treated like ... "

  • The Crusades (Essential Histories)

by David Nicolle (01 February, 2001) page 25 : " ... in this way illustrates their lack of understanding of what the First Crusade was all about. Such ... has been called `the first Holocaust' some sections of what was clearly a Infantryman with tall ... "


--Stbalbach 14:19, 11 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the references. Obviously the term is more common than I had thought. That being said, I note a couple of things: firstly, that many of these sources are popular, rather than scholarly works; and secondly, that most of these sources are not themselves calling it "the first holocaust," but rather weaseling around with "it has been called 'the first holocaust.'" The two sources which are both explicitly about Crusades and not Idiots' guide books very speciifcally do not themselves call it the "first holocaust." (BTW, did Paul Williams and Paul L. Williams really collaborate on the Idiots' Guide to the Crusades? Or is this an Amazon fuck up?) john k 15:34, 11 August 2005 (UTC)Reply

With Google Print now online here are more sources: [1]. Google Print is still new a lot of books are not scanned in yet. Stbalbach 04:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)Reply
Once again, most of the sources go with the "it has been called 'the first holocaust,'" rather than actually calling it that themselves. john k 06:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)Reply

Deus le volt

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Umm...the Columbia Encyclopedia 2001 ed. Translates it as 'Dues Volt' with out the 'le'. Anybody know if this is correct? Thanks, hdstubbs

http://www.bartleby.com/65/cr/Crusades.html

I'm not sure what we should do with this. The only witnesses to Clermont recorded it in Latin as "Deus vult" (as there are no French sources), but I don't think Urban was addressing the crowd in Latin, nor would they respond in Latin...or would they? (Assuming the story is true and such an exclamation was even made at all.) Since there are a multitude of possible ways to spell "God wills it" in Old French (and since Clermont is far enough south that they have spoken some form of Occitan there), we should probably just leave it in Latin. Or, find the earliest Old French source and see what they say (I'm not sure what that would be, maybe the translation of William of Tyre). Adam Bishop 04:03, 2 November 2005 (UTC)Reply
Could do a couple things. Have a footnote and just outline the historiography issues as youve noted (which is pretty interesting). Or have a footnote that says "The phrase variously appears as .." and list the variations. This will satisy most inclusionist impules. See for example Divine Comedy, footone #1, on the translations of the quote: "Abandon all hope, you who enter here". --Stbalbach 04:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)Reply
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:First_Crusade&oldid=27325941"