Hatti has been deemed a bogus name by the powers that be. Lir 16:06 Nov 7, 2002 (UTC)
- Hatti isn't bogus, and it would be great to have an article here on the land of Hatti. The problem is that it isn't the same thing as the Hittite empire, it is just the core territories thereof, and so the two shouldn't be identified. And, btw, just because they are from Hatti doesn't make them "Hattites".
The word nesili isn't strictly the name of the "Hittite" language; it means "in X", where X is the native name of the language. X is occasionally rendered Nesite in the modern literature. --B.Bryant 07:07 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- I've never seen "Nesite" in the modern literature. However, I do see the term as you describe it on page 55 of Colin Renfrew's Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins (ISBN 0521386756).
- -Ben
- It took me about a minute to find it in H. A. Hoffner's "The Hittites and Hurrians" (chapter IX of some book that I can't easily identify because I only have a reproduction of that chapter in a course pack). — B.Bryant 22:56, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Any juicy quote that goes to the heart of what Hoffner thinks of Hittites and Hurrians? This entry needs to be pinned to some professional sources and references. Wetman 01:53, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I'll have to read it again. I've got a big pile of source material that I'll try to work into the article slowly. — B.Bryant 02:09, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It would be nice if someone would re-write this page so that it sounds like it was actually about the Hittites rather than an exercise in biblical exegesis. — B.Bryant 23:08, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Um, Amen to that! I put the biblical POV in a section separate from the archaeology, hoping we could treat part of this as history. Wetman 01:53, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hattic Hattians Not the same as Nesite Hittites
RickK seems intent on suppressing the fact that Hattians did not speak Nesite but a language which is most often classsed as related to North Caucasian Languages in a hypothetical linguistic grouping known as Hetto-Iberian. Neither of these peoples can be classified as Canaanite which is universally accepted to be a northeastern Afroasiatic language. Just wanted readers to be aware. Zestauferov 13:38, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- No, he just wants to remove the reference to a language family of dubious validity, which, BTW, isn't of particular interest to an article about Hittites, even if it happens to be real. — B.Bryant 13:59, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- How can the language of the Hattians whose name is responsible for their confusion with the Biblical Hittites, not be relevant to clarifiying the issue of the Hittites? I am honestly baffled by such (appologies my brain isn't letting me find another more appropriate phrase with less negative connotations) willful ignorance.Zestauferov 14:08, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Read for comprehension and that problem will go away. — B.Bryant 14:27, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
@Bobby D. Bryant. There are nicer ways to establish a first encounter than to call someone a whinger. @RickK the passage I have edited was sloppy and still remains poor but my etids were not controvercial. So what is your problem dude? :o) ?Zestauferov
RickK I would like to remind you of the policies concerning disputes. Your continued reversions without any attempt to discuss is a violation of policy. This is the last time I am going to attempt to post a clarification of the passages anyway originally written by myself. If you revert again without explaination how about bringing in arbitration?Zestauferov 12:58, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- That whole section is going to disappear in (hopefully) a few days when I finish another project and have time to re-write the whole article to organize it better and establish it on the basis of scholarly results rather than hearsay and biblical legend. (BTW, an encyclopedia is no place for a "highly personal conjecture".) That personal conjecture needs to be removed regardless of whose it is. — B.Bryant 13:20, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Oh I get it. Sorry I did not realise that you had two IDs RickK which do you prefer to be called by Rick or Bryant? The phrase "highly personal conjecture" was put in by someone else (probably one of my critics). I did not remove it to steer clear of what has been recently called in policy discussions discussions "troll-feeding". Back to the points 1) I personally do not believe there is any connection between the Biblical Hittites and the popular Hittites, but the argument that there is a connection like the one currently described in the article is the response people who believe in the connection have given me in the past which is why although I don't believe it I included it to cover all POVs without bias (see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines). 2) You still have not answered why you wish to offer no info about the Hattians origin despite them being the reason the Nesites (and Hattians) became mistaken as biblical Hittites. 3) Why do you have to re-write it? Are you incapable of editing? Don't you know wiki is supposed to be a community of editors?Zestauferov 15:04, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Can someone explain why an article on the Hittites needs to make statements about Hattic speakers? Leaving aside whether the statements are valid, aren't they redundant? I mean, we don't summarize Mexican history in an article on the United States, do we? Benwbrum 23:01, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- !?! because Hittites & Hattians were originally thought to be the same (confusion of Hattians with the biblical "children of Heth" led to the Nesites becomming known as Hittites) and in the case of many (e.g. RickK) are still inseperable (hence Rick thinks I have said Hittites spoke a Hetto-Iberian language). Hence some clarification needs to be delt with here. I fear RickK's main reason for covering up the info is that it means he has made a mistake in accusing me of making up the Hetto-Iberian theory and of saying the Hittites spoke a Hetto Iberian language neither of which are true.Zestauferov 23:32, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- "children of Heth" doesn't clarify anything. Are Americans Georgites because they are "children of George Washington"? The entry deals succinctly with these naming issues concerning "Hittites" --which is the subject of this entry. Wetman 23:37, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- ok try this. Not so long ago Hittites only existed in the bible. They were those people the bible called the "Children of Heth". One day someone discovered a culture north of where the biblical Hittites should have been and the land discoered was called Hatti. People were very excited because it sounded like Heth and so they named these people after tyhe biblical Hittites. Later it was discovered that the new Hittites were actually un-rellated to the people of the land of Hatti and more serious investigators criticized the identification of Hatti with Heth just because they sounded similar. Thus in the end there emmerged three peoples. Once again the Biblical Hittites were unknown. There was also the exciting early indo-european Nesite nation (now commonly but mistakenly known as the biblical hittites) and an obscure aboriginal nation of Hatti who spoke a Hetto-Iberian language. Bible-believers brought a 4th people into the discussion when they insisted that the Akkadian-speaking traders who had been in the area from the earliest times must have been the biblical Hittites and so the debate rages on unto this day. Can you see the relevance of it all now?Zestauferov 00:37, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- "children of Heth" doesn't clarify anything. Are Americans Georgites because they are "children of George Washington"? The entry deals succinctly with these naming issues concerning "Hittites" --which is the subject of this entry. Wetman 23:37, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- No. The Hattites were the "owners" of Hattusas before the Hittites. This will need to be explained in the article, but speculations about their language family should go in an article about them, if it belongs in Wikipedia at all. &mdash B.Bryant 09:38, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Did you miss the point that it is because of what we now call Hattians that the Nesites who conquered the area became confused with the Biblical hittites? And how do we know the Nesites and the hattians are not the same? Because Nesite is Indo-European and Hatti is more similar to North caucasian languages than anything else these days. I think this is very relevant for any article clarifying the Hittite issue.
- Well, you're wrong, for reasons I've explained at least twice. (Wrong about the need to go off on tangential speculation about the linguistic affiliation of the Hattic language(s), that is. A brief mention of the Hattites will suffice, along with a "see also" if we have an article on them. Also, notice that the "confusion" is over the name of the "Hittite" language, not the name of their kingdom, which continuted to be called "Het" or the like, both by themselves and their foreign correspondents, presumably because of its base in Hattusus and co-___location with the former Hattic state. A sort of analogy can be had in the fact that we still call England "England", despite the Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Vikings, and French.) — B.Bryant 17:30, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- You are being a little bit silly. Of course you have to mention in the artivle how we know Hattians & Nesites were not the same and the obly way we know is because of thier language affiliations. But I can see you will not budge so there is no future in pointing this out to you. Do ypur best O will edit it later if necessary.Zestauferov 01:35, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
If there's two to four separate people to whom the name Hittite has been applied, why doesn't this article distinguish between them? Really it should have separate sections for the biblical Hittites and the empire of Suppiluliumas et al., and maybe should even be a disambiguation page.
- That is one of the sections I will add when I rework the page, hopefully within a week. — B.Bryant 09:38, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- But there aren't separate peoples. The "Biblical" Hittites, perceived from the vantagepoint of Israel, were the local representatives of a culture that actually had its capital at Hattusa in north-central modern Turkey.
- Could you please state your reference for this statement? Are you refering to modern Israel?Zestauferov 16:51, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hebrew views of Hittites had limitations, as Greek views of Scythians had limitations. Our English-language name for these people is "Hittite." That's not what they called themselves: just as Japan is "Nippon" etc etc.
- Very poor analogy since Japan comes from the english pronunciation of the Russian letters which imitate in Russian pronunciation & stress the sound Nippon (now called Nihon), whereas Hittite as you point out is an exonym which coes from assuming Nesites to be the same as Hattians and that the latter were mentioned in the bible as Hittites.Zestauferov 16:51, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
There is no authentic confusion. As ever, there is a certain amount of history to be derived from the Tanach. There is a certain amount of (mute) history derived from archaeology. And a certain amount of information can be derived from linguistics-- once a language has been translated. Then a house of cards of fantasies about culture connections, primal languages, identical deities etc etc can be built up that is increasingly speculative. An earlier indigenous culture had previously existed at Hattusa. What's the real problem here? Not distinguishing between what is known from what is surmised Any work on disentangling the simple capsule description of what is generally agreed currently about Hittites will be very welcome. Wetman 10:34, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
To make ourselves clear, let's just decide not to enter any statement that isn't simply literally true, otherwise we quickly blur things into a muddle. Let's not say "some people' let's say who. Let's not use a category like "bible-believers" that doesn't mean anything. Identify who, where, when. Don't say "the bible says," don't refer to "people were very excited". Then you won't say "there emerged three peoples' or "not so long ago Hittites only existed in the Bible." The entry itself will become clear if every statement is literally factual. Don't express guesses in the form "it was discovered." Don't use the passive voice. I just can't help beyond that. When I have time I'll go through the page history and see if any useful material is lost. Wetman 05:03, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
An edit, repeated here for clarity:
"...they were seen, from the viewpoint of the traditions of the Hebrews, later written and edited in the 7th century BCE, as a small Canaanite group" Any issue with this statement as straightforward interpretation?
"Archaeology has shown that the center of the culture we call "Hittite" was in fact far to the north, in modern-day Turkey." Is there an issue with this statement?
Can we please have a title for the 1998 book by T. Bryce that is said to state that Hittites aren't Hittites. And can we have a synopsis of why Bryce says so? That's a part of the confusion here.
I think the disputed/confusing statement is this: If there is any connection between these and the Biblical Hittites, they might have been the Akkadian traders centered there later adopting Hattic before the north-western Indoeuropean rulers came to dominate the area. However, there is as of yet little basis for any connection between the Biblical Hittites and the Popular Hittites. This combines multiple surmises and creates confusion. Can't this statement be made clear? What is the problem here? Wetman 10:53, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- The Hittite people, language and culture remained as late as the 5th century AD, as they went on living as discrete and diverse small independent states in central and southeastern Anatolia. - straight from the article, and easily found in most texts. The author of the disputed statement may want to say whether these city-states are what he has in mind, or something else. Btw, I haven't read the book so can't be sure, but The Kingdom of the Hittites (ISBN 0199240108) looks like a good candidate for the relevant book.
- The writer you quote seems to be thinking about the Neo-Hittite successor states in northern Syria and surrounding regions, though of course the ebb and flux of empires would have erased them long before 500 CE. (A quick check of Gurney suggests 1200 years before.) There were also some kingdoms in western Anatolia, though they were of the descendents of the other IE Anatolians rather than the Hittites, and they too disappeared about 1000 years earlier than whoever you are quoting claims. — B.Bryant 16:41, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Ah! Didn't notice the AD, and it is plainly a typo for BC. Whatever else needs to be done, that should be changed, and I will do so immediately. The question still stands as to whether the Neo-Hittite cities are being referred to.
Here are some excerpts from: Mendenhall, George E. The Tenth Generation: The Origins of the Biblical Tradition, The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1973. ISBN 0-8018-1654-8. on the subject of Anatolian Hittites in Canaan. Mendenhall is professor emeritus of Near Eastern languages at the University of Michigan.
"...we have every reason to believe that an increasing number of peoples from the north came into the south-eastern Mediterranean area in the Late Bronze Age. In fact, it seems impossible to point to any period within the known history of Palestine when we do not have evidence for intimate contacts with Anatolia, whether it be pre-pottery Neolithic, the Bronze Age, the Iron age or the nineteenth-century Ottoman Empire. ... When we look at other sites in the Palestinian-Syrian coastal and inland areas, we find ample evidence of the same kind of historical process. After the collapse of the Hittite Empire, the traditions and even proper names associated with Anatolia spread far to the west and to the south as well. The northern part of Syria was even called māt Hatti in Assyrian times, and as far south as Hama (even further south to Restan/Rustam) hieroglyphic Luwian writing is attested even as late as the seventh century B.C. Even by the Greco-Roman period, Luwian names persisted as far south as the Damascene... It is not adventuresome at all, then, to suggest that the biblical tradition is entirely correct in attributing to Cilician origin certain dominant population groups in several of the towns of Palestine and the area north of the Sea of Galilee."
Adding the remarkable parallels between Hittite and Deuteronomistic covenant forms, as well as the direct linguistic evidence mentioned above (Luwian is closely related to Anatolian Hittite) as well as much more provided by scholars such as Albright and Mendenhall, and the case for a difference between the biblical and Anatolian Hittites doesn't seem very convincing. Of course, NPOV demands it be left in, but the evidence otherwise is also going to be cited.Fire Star 04:34, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)