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Talk:Nazism and socialism

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Socialist States not Socialist?

"Income and distribution were subject to social control by mandates and laws which put business in the hands of a political order..." For "social control" you need democracy. AndyL 14:17, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

But Andy, that definition would exclude the Soviet Union equally with Nazi Germany. I think we need to stay away from definitions that would exclude states which are conventionally considered to be in some sense "socialist." john 15:13, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't see the USSR under Stalin and his successors to be socialist. In any case, I'm merely applying the Britannica definition that Sam provided. However, supporters of the Soviet Union would argue that the USSR did have democratic bodies and would argue that societal control was exercised through the Soviets and the Supreme Soviet (I and many others would say that these bodies were not truly democratic but that's beside the point). This was the case formally, at least. In contrast Nazi Germany suspended the Reichstag and all representative bodies so there was not even a pretense of societal control or democratic institutionsAndyL 22:58, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC).

OK, what do you think is socialist then? There is something called Falsifiability. Are their any examples IRL, or is a pipe-dream only thang? Sam Spade 00:39, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Personally, Sam, I think socialist regimes ought to be defined as those which come out of a fairly specific historical socialist tradition, which is pretty easily definable and which pretty clearly exclude the Nazis. john 01:11, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I believe that the Socialist tradition gave Nazism it's identity, rhetoric, and bent in a way of conceiving a Nation as an eternal involitable principle through a centralized acted out preservation for it. It all comes out of how the concepts 'Nationalism' & 'Socialism' can converge with the least amount of obscuring one another together as one ideology, outside of simple statism. Of course that couldn't carry on the tradition of Socialism for different Socialist movements because it was too highly qualified to the German condition then alone to be used within that pool of Socialist ideas that can contribute to the type of Socialist history that can be looked to for those who want to apply Socialism for their own welfare, but Nazism did take it's spirit from a extremely focused Socialist tendency and inspiration, as well as application. The people for them, had a duty to the rest of the people, it didn't undercut individual capital like Communism but it was held accountable for through a Socialist state jurisdiction to responsibility for output of one to another just as Soviet sectors had managers appointed for such causes, the Nazis used the infrastructure that was already in place and Socialized it by having set down punitive standards that saw them through. It was state Socialism and I'm not arguing otherwise there, but it was a statism of Socialism not class conventional defending Fascism. Nagelfar 07:23, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I concede that the USSR and its satellites come out of the historic socialist tradition even if they corrputed it.

"Are their any examples IRL, or is a pipe-dream only thang?" False dichotomy. I don't think any of the states now existing are truly socialist though Cuba probably comes closest (though it falls far short). I would concur with the Trotskyist analysis that the USSR under Stalin was a degenerated workers state. AndyL 02:35, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

degenerated workers state

I think this is a particularly accurate description of Nazism. It was originally very left wing economically despite its authoritarianism (Stalin was likewise Authoritarian AND left, it isn't necessarilly a controdictory combo) and continued to be in its propaganda (altho I will agree not so very much so in practice) even after the night of the long knives. Strasser WAS left wing, and was 2nd in command, even filling in for Hitler for a time. I think we can easily wrap this article up if we acknowledge that:

  • Socialist propaganda and socialist state practice have often diverged significantly
  • Nazism had a significant change of direction after the night of the long knives
  • The terms left/right are imprecise, and awkward terms, and should only be used with strict clarification of what exactly is ment, and when it was ment that way
  • The term "socialism" itself is contentious and nebulous, largely due to rhetoric failing to correlate to reality in practice

I think if we can do that, we can allow the reader to make up their own mind about what Nazism was, and they will probably discover its a rather mixed bag, dependant on largely arbitrary definitions of esoteric terms

Sam Spade 06:17, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sam, Germany was never a workers state so it couldn't be a degenerated workers state. If you're so convinced of Trotsky's analysis of the USSR you should read his analysis of fascism and Nazi Germany Fascism:What it is and how to fight it. You're grasping at straws and you still haven't explained how Nazi Germany meets the definition you cite regarding social control over the economy. AndyL 06:28, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The brownshirts were about as working class as it comes, and I have no interest in reading your books. Please remember, you must be respectful enough to earn a thoughtful conversation. Sam Spade 06:35, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The brownshirts were probably working-class for the most, yet that does not make the nazi regime a "worker's state" – the Nazi regime was a populist regime. Of course, you may argue that Ernst Röhm and much of the SA leadership were "leftists" economically, but the fact is, as you point out, they were murdered so early in the accession of the Nazis to power that it does not really matter. The Nazi state, as established, was economically semi-statist, or, more appropriately, as we say in France, dirigiste: while not exercing direct public control over factories etc..., it intervened in the economy. (Note that this is not original: for a number of years, the French government was dirigiste, and the US government is also dirigiste, albeit less visibly.) David.Monniaux 07:15, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I agree completely, except that I feel you minimize the importance of early ideas, and later propaganda which was socialist. No socialist state is truely socialist, according to some idealists, but they all claimed it, and all share similar ideas/propaganda, esp. early on. Anybody who thinks soviet workers controlled the economy is out of their minds of course, and I am sure no one is claiming that. Nazism similarly conducted the socialist "bait and switch". Sam Spade 07:25, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
My dictionary says that Socialism is a political theory advocating the public ownership of industry. Has Nazi Germany nationalized its industries? No. In fact, it let large capitalist groups (Krupp, IG Farben, etc...) prosper. It was therefore not socialist by the dictionary sense.
The Soviet Union was socialist in the dictionary sense, but undemocratic.
Which "Socialist bait and switch" are you talking about? David.Monniaux 07:35, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Except that while capitalism was abolished in the USSR it was not in Nazi Germany.

Sam, I suggest you follow your own rules regarding civility. I've seen many instances of you descending into petty insults around wiki. It's a shame that your view of civility somhow allows you to be insulting and dismissive but does not allow anyone to calmly refutate your analysis, point out errors or contradictions in your logic or pose questions you cannot answer. Somehow, by pointing out that you had completely misread John's posting earlier on I was being "uncivil" :)

Again, you have yet to explian how Nazi Germany meets the definition you cited of a state in which there was social control of the economy. And if you read the definition of degenerated workers state you'll see that it describes a state in which capitalism has been eradicated, clearly that was not the case in Nazi Germany. The commanding heights of the economy were not expropriated, private enterprise and private profit flourished. As far as Strasser is concerned the brothers were purged before the Nazis came to power as I recall and as you well know the Nazi party operated under the "Fuhrer principle", all that mattered was what Hitler thought and he was not a socialist. What his underlings may have thought prior to the Nazi seizure of power is of little consequence as can be seen by their fate. AndyL 07:28, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That the Nazis made individuals accountable to the people themselves with their own personal acquisition by having the state remotely direct means of production instead of manually apprehending it by an authorized state force, was more truly Socialized in nature than common "left" state Socialism because it was done by the hands of the workers themselves. post-Strasser. Hitler always considered himself a 'National Socialist,' and thought his form of Socialism was pure in contrast to the Marxian type of those he purged who were for 'permanent revolution' Nagelfar 07:42, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How did the Nazis make "individuals accountable to the people themselves". What evidence is there of this? Were the Krupps made accountable? Or any of the other industrial families of Germany? The workers had no power in Nazi Germany, your argument that the workers somehow controlled or directed the means of production has no evidence behind it and is not supported by any historians I know of. AndyL 07:49, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes the industrial society & labor front was responsible for employing as many as possible for the rehabilitation of social ordinances through the state's contracting of them which would further increase the nation's modernizing technique to a level where nothing earned by any company had value outside of for the general populace. It certainly wasn't a Communist Workers state, but it was Socialist. Like Capitalism the workers controlled their own means *to* production, they were not placed in their field like in the Soviet Union, those industries that made due and submitted to German state provisions gave their civilians full choice to their line of work and even honourary station in relation to their Social character (to the level they personally represented the German ideal physically, even) education was no longer a great factor as willingness to the national community superseded placement, and real experience was held above conceptualization & static opportunism for aimless business progression that didn't yield for the states standards of it's people; it was socialized capital. Meritocratic, yes, but egalitarian among the excelling; those not 'asocial.' Laws made sure whatever individuals had control over went back to the nation for the people, full employment by 1936 with labor shortages even shows a all inclusive model by a increasing state's vacuum for workers. It was part of the 'Sonderweg,' private ownership was only the enemy of Communism, used rightly it was the friend of Socialism and enemy to both bourgeois Capitalism & Communism from a National Socialist perspective Nagelfar 05:53, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Socialism & Privatism

Privatism as early law dictionaries used it didn't exactly mean what it means now when Socialism was an early movement. It meant cutting off from the masses, 'privative' meaning 'removing' through being kept for particular classes, outside of the question of allowing individual ownership as the condition by which material accessibility is ultimately given, i.e. all individuals being 'private' persons wouldn't have been used in that sense as it would have sounded silly to them. the Socialism's that did use 'anti-private' terminology originally very likely had 'private' defined differently than how Communism later came to mean it. Further confusing the two government types. They were founded basically as fitting terms for their ideas, Socialism being a 'social' minded movement of respect to necessary different services provided by each aspect of society, and Communism seeking to 'Commune' the people together in common. But they are fairly different from one another. Nagelfar 06:57, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I really don't quite follow you. David.Monniaux 07:16, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
From dictionary.com; 'Privative' - "Causing deprivation, lack, or loss" Nagelfar 07:48, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Oh, there's even better: dict.org has a marvellous Webster 1913 (as well as other dictionaries) that you can install locally on your machine. David.Monniaux 08:38, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Unjustified Reversions

Sam, I'd appreciate it if you followed your own "harmonious editing rules" and stopped reverting without discussing it here first, particularly as you are removing factual information. AndyL 07:32, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sam, you keep trying to remove the following:

"After Mussolini's fascists took power in Italy in 1922, fascism presented itself as a realistic option for opposing Communism particularly given Mussolini's success in crushing the Communist and anarchist movements which had destabalised Italy with a wave of strikes and factory occupations after the First World War.
Many historians such as Ian Kershaw and Joachim Fest argue that Hitler and the Nazis were one of numerous nationalist and increasingly fascistic groups that existed in Germany and contended for leadership of the anti-socialist, anti-liberal movement and, eventually, of the German state."

The above statement is factual. Mussolini did crush the Commuinist and anarchist movements, those movements had led strikes and factory occupations prior to 1922 and the fascist success in defeating the Commuinist threat did make fascism appealing to others who wanted to defeat Bolshevism.

Tha Nazis were one of numerous fascistic groups contending for power in Germany in the 1920s and they were trying to lead an ant-Communist movement. I'll change anti-socialist to anti-Communist but the statements are factual. Stop removing them. AndyL 07:37, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Saying that Nazism was 'statist' rather than "fascistic" may be more NPOV also Nagelfar 07:45, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Not really since fascism was highly statist. AndyL 07:49, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That it was highly statist doesn't mean that Nazism's extreme statism had anything to do with Fascism's extreme statism. Nagelfar 07:54, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps it was just coincidental :) AndyL 08:41, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't see much of a relation for there to have been a historical coincidence at all, just an alliance. Fascism was a system for a 'pyramid of state' Nazism was more of a funnel. Nagelfar 04:49, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

rv

"These members would bind THEMSELVES to the rule of "you can only revert once". They would often propose options on the talk page BEFORE making edits to the article. They might even wait an hour or a day for assent from others before making changes. They will also be eager to request community involvement and/or peer review, wherever necessary."

Sam, given that you've revereted more than once and that you haven't discussed the options on talk before you've edited the article I put to you that you are not following the rules of the club which I believe you yourself founded. You're not setting a good exampleAndyL 07:49, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I reverted once, and won't revert to the same edit again. You are trolling, and I don't intend to communicate with you further. Sam Spade 07:55, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)


Looking Good

If anybody is interested the passage I wanted removed was this

'Hitler and the Nazis were one of numerous nationalist and increasingly fascistic groups that existed in Germany and contended for leadership of the anti-socialist, anti-liberal movement and, eventually, of the German state'

along w unclarified mentions of left/right. They have been removed, and I am very glad to see the article shaping up. Sam Spade 07:55, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"I reverted once, and won't revert to the same edit again." No, you removed that pasage twice, at 5:59 and 6:36 am. AndyL

I've tried to add a bit more pertinent information and remove some of the subtle POV. I think the entry is a bit better now, but there's still lots of work needed - especially on the massive central bit about class conflict and support for Capitalism. But I'm not sure this article should exist at all. 99% of people wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that the Nazis were Socialist, and the current article is unlikely to convince the other 1%. Couldn't it be condensed into a section duplicated on the existing Socialism and Nazism pages, briefly explaining that the Nazis were not Socialists? We have a very long article written to refute a view propagated by a handful of right-wing post-modernists. We may as well have a page to refute the charge that Communism and Capitalism are one in the same. -- 62.6.127.107

The purpose of the article is to be NPOV, the majority contemporary POV doesn't make it NPOV nor is coming to the article with the assumption that seeing the Nazis as Socialist is a 'mistake,' which is also completely POV. Even worse is the stereotype that such a view is made only by the economically conservative, seeing it as propaganda could only be from the preconception that association to Nazism makes something intrinsically adverse. This should solely be for describing political science & the original manifestation of third position meta-politics with Nazism.Nagelfar 04:54, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Capital

AndyL -- Re: your changes. Socialism should be capped in this context. Same for Liberal and Conservative. In a political context, all of these words should be capped. Otherwise, a "conservative estimate" becomes only the Conservative party's spending predicitons, a "liberal helping" becomes assistance from a Liberal MP and so on. -- 62.6.127.107

Perhaps someone with a style dictionary can confirm or deny this but in my copy editing class we were taught that you cap parties, not ideologies unless they are named after a person (with one exception I'll mention in a moment). You cap liberal if you are talking about a member of the Liberal Party but if you are describing a left leaning member of the US Democratic Party that person is a liberal Democrat. A Leninist is capped because the ideology is named aftter a person, same with a Marxist but a socialist is not capped unless he or she is being referred to in the context of belnging to the Socialist Party. We cap Nazi because that refers to the Nazi Party (even if Nazi is a nickname). The general exception is with communist. If one is referring to the pro-Soviet movement then you refer to a Communist but if someone isn't a Moscow-line ideologue than he or she is a communist. AndyL 16:59, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Let me give you an example of why it's necessary to cap parties and keep ideologies in lower case.

In Canada we have a lot of conservative Liberals and a few liberal Conservatives. At Canada's inception we had the Liberal Conservative Party which tended to be conservative and the Liberal Party which tended to be liberal. However, there are periods in our history where the Liberals have been more conservative than the Conservatives. In Australia, of course the Liberals are conservative. Labor though has moved towards a liberal position on the economy while the Liberals tend to be conservative. In Canada, we had Progressive Conservatives but that party doesn't exist anymore. However, even when it did exist most progressives tended to vote Liberal or NDP rather than Progressive Conservative . We have the social democratic New Democratic Party, though that party has a number of members who are more liberal than social democratic.

The liberal Democrats in the US have a lot in common with the Liberal Democrats in Britain. In the 80s, Labour was social democratic but to the left of the Social Democrats.

In Britain, there are a number of members of the Conservative Party who are liberals, such as Portillo but most Conservatives tend to be conservative. In the US we have a conservative Republican Party and a liberal Democratic Party. There use to be a Liberal Party in New York state but that doesn't exist any more. AndyL 17:19, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Socialists strongly deny the claim that there exists a relationship between Nazism and socialism

^This immediately takes the position that the Nazis weren't Socialist in their Nationalism by claiming broadly that Socialists refute association to Nazism. 100% POV. Maybe it should say "many Economic Socialists" or "many social mutualists" Nagelfar 05:04, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, dear god. How about "Mainstream socialists"? john 05:40, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

or the phenomenon of liberal Communists calling themselves Socialist? Nagelfar 05:53, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
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