Dominant/Recessive
I have changed the part that states that Solid Snake recieved "recessive genes" to "inferior genes" (And Liquid's to "superior" rather than dominant).
My reasoning is as follows:
Liquid tells us that Solid Snake recieved the dominant genes, while he himself recieved the "flawed recessive genes". Then, in the Epilogue, Ocelot reveals Liquid was wrong to believe himself flawed, calling Solid Snake the "inferior". It is a bit of a leap from there to assume that this means that Snake recieved the *recessive* genes - particularly since he demonstrates the greatest resemblance in character to Big Boss (who would obviously express his dominant genes whenever they turned up in pairs of Dominant/Dominant, or Dominant/Recessive).
What is indesputable is that Liquid was genetically superior - but whether a gene is dominant or recessive has no bearing on how desirable it is.
It is far more likely that the scientists (having NOT identified the solider genes in 1972 - this development came after Big Boss's death and further examination of his remains) simply assumed that since he was the "Legendary Solider", Big Boss' dominant genes would be those most suitable for creating the perfect solider.
They then created Solid with the *intention* of making him the superior and Liquid with the intention of his being the "spare". Undoubtedly there would be paperwork and files on this that Liquid would be able to discover in his adulthood - which would also lead him to the conclusion that the recessive genes that he recieved were "flawed". What he would not learn was that in truth, Big Boss' recessive genes were even more potent than his dominant genes - so on a genetic level, Liquid was in fact potentially greater than even Big Boss.
On a more superficial/silly level - it would give us a cool reason for Liquid to have natural blonde hair, since the "blonde hair colour gene" is recessive. Having said that, Snake's hair seemed to be naturally blonde in MGS - but this was changed in TTS. Tsch. Retconning.
If you don't agree, that's fine - "superior"/"inferior" is unbias and covers both possible interpretations that one is able to take from the game- but clearly labelling Solid Snake as the inheritor of the recessive genes does not. - Ulicus (I really should get around to registering)
- First of all, changing "recessive" to "inferior" and "dominant" to "superior" just negates the whole intent of the genetic story in Metal Gear Solid.
- The point of the story is that "We are not ruled by our genetic fate" as Dr. Naomi Campbell states. That even though Liquid truly received Big Boss' "dominant" soldier genes ultimately he couldn't either defeat Solid Snake or the FOXDIE virus. And under the same context, Solid Snake who received the "recessive" genes proves time and time again that genetic fate has nothing to do with the choices you can make as a person. Naomi even mentions this in game citing that Solid's genes make him predisposed towards violence, which he disproves when he goes out of his way to save Meryl during the Psycho Mantis fight.
- Next, Solid Snake's hair has long been brown. Even early cover art will tell you that and thinking that he looked to have more blonde hair in MGS seems to be your opinion. I felt pretty sure it was obvious his hair was brown even on the PSX version of the game, and see no evidence of retconning. Now, brown hair is known to be a "dominant" genetic trait. Where Liquid's hair is blonde which is known to be a genetic "recessive" trait. Albeit there are other factors that can contribute to a loss of color in the head (stress, excessive exposure to sunlight, et. al.)
- Third, the difference in the genetic base of the characters due to the hair color, may be entirely limited to the specific genes linked to soldiers. A gene related to hair color probably wouldn't be considered as important as a gene linked to physical endurance in a soldier. The Les Enfantes genetic manipulation may have been focused more strongly on "soldier" genes as opposed to all genes.
- Fourth, as far as "superior/inferior" being unbiased, that is your bias. The game itself uses the terms "recessive" and "dominant". Therefore those should be the terms used in the description on this page. In genetic research, "recessive" genes are not always considered to be inferior genes or traits. When you state "inferior" you are implying that Solid Snake is comprised of poor genetic material when it is stated time and time again that he was crafted from the greatest soldier that ever lived (according to game canon.)
- The game's theme (MGS) is that of breaking genetic fate. And genes are classified as "dominant" and "recessive". To say that Solid Snake is the obvious "superior" however would be correct, as he has proven multiple times, often being the last man standing in a battle to the death. His genetic material, which gives him his strength (arguably) is therefore "recessive" not inferior. I am reverting your changes. TotalTommyTerror 18:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
How have I compromised the main story of “conquering ones genetic fate” by saying that Snake ends up the victor despite being the “inferior”? (I believe I put inferior/superior in “ ” in the article, if not that was a mistake). If anything I’ve further clarified it – since as you say, recessive does not mean “worse.”
Speaking of which, you seem to contradict yourself (forgive me if I'm wrong), in one sentence saying that “Solid Snake who received the "recessive" genes proves time and time again that genetic fate has nothing to do with the choices you can make as a person” – implying that recessive means inferior and in the next that “In genetic research, "recessive" genes are not always considered to be inferior genes or traits.”
Which is it? I believe wholly in the latter, which was my reasoning for making the change.
The game itself uses the terms "recessive" and "dominant". Therefore those should be the terms used in the description on this page.
No, Liquid uses the terms “recessive” and “dominant” and implies that recessive is inferior, while dominant is superior.
In the Epilogue however, Ocelot simply says that the “inferior one” won. There is no mention of whether or not this means that Snake has the “flawed recessive genes”, or (as I believe) if it means that Liquid was simply wrong to believe that the recessive genes were flawed in the first place. Why should one view take precedence over the other?
Similarly, I am NOT implying that Solid Snake is made up of poor genetic material – if anything, by suggesting that he is in possession of the “dominant genes” I am implying that he is the most like Big Boss in his genetic makeup. You only express your dominant genes when they come in a pair of "dominant/recessive" after all.
You talk about the solider genes and the Les Enfant Terribles project in one breath – when the game canon specifically tells us that the solider genes were not identified at that time. All they had to work with was recessive and dominant genes - they didn't know what did what, but made a reasonable assumption that the dominant genes were the best for soldiers, since they're what Big Boss expressed. I'd argue that they were wrong, and that Big Boss' recessive genes were even better soldier material than his dominant genes, which is why Liquid believes himself to be genetically inferior, when in fact he is genetically superior to even his father - in terms of the genes that he's expressing anyway...
Ultimately however - the genetics used in MGS is pretty haphazard - since if it was a case of one clone having all the recessive genes and the other having all the dominant genes - they would not be "genetically identical" as Liquid claims... they wouldn't even look alike - which does give your "picks up on soldier genes only" argument more weight. So yeah, I think it's quite likely that we'll find that it's been retconned so that the solider genes *had* been identified by the time of the Les Enfant Terrible project... much like they retconned Big Boss's age at the time of the project and the founding date of Foxhound but, as things stand, I don't think you've dismissed my argument at all.
Regardless, I'm willing to leave "recessive/dominant" the way it is on the page. If only because you'd just change them back and I'd just have to change it again ad infinitum. :D
It would get pretty silly.
- Uli
Ok, well that's a better argument than the one you initially presented. If you want to make a note about genetic "superiority/inferiority", that is fine with me. As you are correct, Ocelot does say "He thought he was the inferior one" (sic).
I still feel it important to note the "dominant/recessive" wording, because that is the wording that Liquid used, and is important. It even comes up in conversation again in MGS2. And considering that is how the children of Les Enfantes were created (separation of dominant/recessive genes) it is important as such to note that. TotalTommyTerror 18:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the above - I just consider it a bit of a leap to assume that Solid Snake was given the recessive genes because Liquid believed them to be flawed and Ocelot called Snake the inferior.
Granted, it is the impression I got on my first playthrough - but after seeing that Big Boss was far more similar to Solid Snake than either of his other children, it made more sense to think that Snake is expressing more of the same genes as his father than either Liquid or Solidus- which would imply that he's got the "dominant genes" - and that Liquid got the "better" recessive genes, that he mistakenly believed to be flawed... gah, the more I think about this, the more I want a game with Liquid as the protagonist.
Perhaps the article should say something along the lines of:
"Blah de blah - the sons of Big Boss were birthed through the manipulation/separation(Mix-match?) of the legendary soldier's dominant and recessive genes. Solid and Liquid represented the opposite ends of the spectrum, one expressing all of Big Boss' dominant genes, the other all of Big Boss' recessive genes... Solidus, on the other hand, was a "perfectly balanced masterpiece" - blah de blah... whether by accident or design, because of this, on a genetic level, Solid Snake was considered the "inferior".
This way, we are not stating whether or not Snake was dominant/recessive for certain, but we are clarifying what we know, that one was all dominant, one was all recessive and on a genetic level, Snake ended up as the "inferior". (Yet was such a badass that this didn't matter in the end)
That would follow through with the bit with: "Liquid Snake, who believed that he had recieved the 'flawed' recessive genes"... dar de dar.
Do you think this change would be acceptable?
- Uli
Edit: Finally got around to registering, I'm also going to make the change cited above - feel free to remove/edit if you still think it is inappropriate (Ulicus 03:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC))
That is just fine. TotalTommyTerror 14:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Generic?
Shouldn't generic be genetic?
I know that generic can have a biological term too, however it also has other meanings and could be confusing. Also I've never known anyone to use the term 'generic engineering'.
Regarding my fixing the "spelling correction" by User:66.190.245.23: The character in the "Escape from" movies is named Snake Plissken. Snake uses the alias "Pliskin". They are not spelled the same. --138.238.96.32 23:36, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Should there a be a concrete figure for Snake's age as of Sons of Liberty, since we get a birth year in Snake Eater? Jrquinlisk 07:14, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't recall any of the games saying that Snake suffered from PTSD. Where can I find this information?
Regarding PTSD, it is mentioned in the Metal Gear Solid 1 guidebook, which has a fair amount of information and was apparently liked by Hideo Kojima (the creator of Metal Gear) so much that he bought copies for the staff.
- I have issues with the MGS1 guide myself. The guide gives the impression that some of the biographical data about characters were made up by the author (and thus, not exactly canonical) to fill in blanks. For example, what other sources (literature or in-game) explicitily stated that Big Boss was a Japanese-American from Hawaii? Jonny2x4 05:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Solid Snake to Master Millar/Liquid Snake: "How did you know I was part japanese" - as a clone of Big Boss, I think this heavily implies that Big Boss was part japanese also.
- I have issues with the MGS1 guide myself. The guide gives the impression that some of the biographical data about characters were made up by the author (and thus, not exactly canonical) to fill in blanks. For example, what other sources (literature or in-game) explicitily stated that Big Boss was a Japanese-American from Hawaii? Jonny2x4 05:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
images
I think the Decoy Octopus image has no value in this article. It seems very unrelated.
Whoever said that's Decoy Octopus is in error. Decoy Octopus has no ears. That looks very much like Snake in civilian clothing. I motion to label it as such. Steven Hildreth, Jr. 19:15, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
That IS Snake. It's from the character study section of The Art of Metal Gear Solid by Yoji Shinkawa, which shows illustrations of Snake in his civilian outfit. It seems that Mr. 208.186.56.57 here isn't too sharp to even notice the difference between Snake's and Octopus' faces. Jonny2x4 04:49, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Someone should update all the website featuring the information of MGS:Snake Eater
Snake's real name
Isn't there a correlation between Snake's real name, David, and that of the person who gives Snake his voice in the Metal Gear Solid series of games, David Hayter?
Grumpy Troll 28 June 2005 21:06 (UTC)
- Probibly not as Hideo would be writing his scripts long before voice actors where found. It's more likely a refrence to 2001: A Space Odyssey since Snake is called David and Otacon is called Hal. I believe that this was hinted at in 'Twin Snakes' for the Gamecube.
- I could be wrong however and any links to an interview would be cool. --Zikar 29 June 2005 00:11 (UTC)
- No, it has nothing to do with Hayter. It's a reference to 2001: A Space Odyssey and Policenauts (which are mentioned in the article). Like you said, the scripts were written long before the voice actors were hired. Snake's name is David in the Japanese version of Metal Gear Solid too. Hayter's also commented on it being a coincidence, I think. --DoubleCross July 3, 2005 21:45 (UTC)
Ac!d
There is no info on Metal Gear Ac!d in the article, maybe someone could add something in?
- The thing is that the AC!D series is set in a separate universe from the main Metal Gear Saga, like Ghost Babel and Snake's Revenge before it. It won't exactly fit well with the info from main series. We could have a sub-section for side games though. Jonny2x4 22:35, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Meryl
I just edited the page, adding how Snake lived with Meryl for a while after Shadow Moses. The Meryl ending is the official canonical one, noted by Kojima, plus her presence in MGS4. He finds Otacon after that.
Green Berets?
This article needs some fixing. Solid Snakes military career outside of Foxhound is very vague. Although he has both worked alongside and taken orders from U.S Army personnel it has never been confirmed nor denied whether he is himself Army personnel,much less a Green Beret. It is however hinted that Snake has links to The British Special Air Service and the United States Marine Corps. There may have been some confusion between Solid Snake and Big Boss in this article.
- I'm tempted to remove all the whole "Military Career Debate" nonsense since it's completely subjective and not much of an issue in my opinion. BTW, FOXHOUND is spelled in all-caps. Jonny2x4 03:07, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Hold on a second there bucko! The existing article, as it had been, was incomplete and possibly inaccurate. Who the hell are you to say what’s “Nonsense” and “not much of an Issue”? THE POINT IS THAT WE HAVE A COMPLETE AND THOROUGH ARTICLE. What I love about Wikipedia is the level of detail and insightfulness in many of the articles about fictional careers. However, Snake’s article seemed BARE and IMPRECISE. Furthermore, I have seen people debate about Snakes military career many a time. So I took it upon myself to bring light to this IMPORTANT ISSUE on a respected forum that would appreciate a completely OBJECTIVE, THOROUGH and WELL RESEARCHED commentary.
Instead I get a Dickhead, and not just any Dickhead – I got the kind of Dickhead who thinks he’s the GODDAMNED editor and chief of the fucking NEW YORK TIMES. And you know what else?! Describing you as an editor at the New York Times wouldn’t be too far off, SINCE YOU HAVE THE EXACT SAME LACK OF JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY! THAT’S RIGHT, the kind of fucking DICKHEAD that makes up an article and doesn’t give a shit that it's FALSE!!
AND YEAH, I may be an Asshole for badgering someone on the Internet but at least I’m not the kind of DICKHEAD that lets people read an INCOMPLETE REPORT in a goddamned ENCYCLOPEDIA!! JUST BECAUSE YOU DON’T THINK IT’S AN IMPORTANT ISSUE IT DOESN’T MEAN OTHER PEOPLE DON’T AND IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT THAN YOU CAN JUST FUCK OFF. JESUS TITTY FUCKING CHRIST, HAVE YOU EVEN PLAYED METAL GEAR SOLID?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
In what way was that article subjective, WHAT REASON would I have to be subjective? I’m not even in the goddamned Military; I’m just fan of an awesome game.
POINT THE FIRST: THE GAME HAS BEEN VERY SUGGESTIVE ABOUT SNAKE’S MILITARY CAREER.
POINT THE SECOND: IT SUGGESTS THE GODDAMN, MOTHER FUCKING MARINE CORP AND BRITISH SPECIAL MOTHER FUCKING AIR SERVICE.
POINT THE THIRD: I AM PUTTING THE MY ARTICLE RIGHT BACK WHERE IT WAS.........YOU FUCKING DICKHEAD! Grauer_Fuchs 02:46, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Hi! Might want to take some time to read Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines before you get banned outright. --Paul Soth 08:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- Wow! So much hissy for a trivial video game-based article. It's people like you and that Cloudsong kid that gives Jack Thompson fuel for his argument.
BTW Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_and_video_games states that "Theories or speculation (are unsuitable content). You may think that the Chozo were actually cannibalistic, perhaps based on a sentence referencing their mysterious eating habits in an instruction booklet, but unless this has been stated explicitly in official literature, it does not belong in the article. This applies to theories that aren't your own, as well." Jonny2x4 20:02, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd just like to point out that there is a Name Debate section included in the Big Boss article but, for whatever reason, the Military Career debate was removed from the Solid Snake article. I honestly don't see what the difference is between the two; they're both strongly disputed issues among Metal Gear fans. Why is it that the Military Career debate was removed but the Name Debate was permitted to remain? Grauer_Fuchs 10:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- I was initially against the inclusion of the "Name Debate" section in the Big Boss article, but popular vote won out. Apparently enough people that is significant enough to be kept. The actual game doesn't provide evidence favoring Jack over John (and vice versa) and anything about Naked Snake's smirk and the use of John Doe is strictly suggestive. If it was up to me, I would have simply have it at "Big Boss' real name is unknown" and that "he uses both: Jack and John to introduce himself", since I prefer to keep fictional articles as immersive as possible to the reader (a personal preference of mine).
On the other hand, the whole thing about Snake's pre-FOXHOUND career seems more like fancruft, since it's never brought up in the series outside of that one line by Campbell and no one else debated about its removal. Jonny2x4 07:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
DOB Removal
I want to justify the removal of Snake's Date Of Birth of 1972. 1972 is stated in MGS3 as the beginning of the Les'Enfantes project but that doesn't make it Snake's birthdate.
First of all, the idea that within one year of starting genetic research that the same lab could produce offspring is a bit ridiculous (regardless of giant walking robots being a bit farfetched as well).
Secondly, all offspring of the project were referred to as the "Sons of Big Boss" which Liquid even states (I want to talk about what he says in a bit.) The likelihood that other "copies" were made before Liquid, Solid, and Solidus seems reasonable. Genetic manipulation would've been way in its infantcy at this point.
Third, the game only states that the "Sons of Big Boss" were born, not that Liquid or Solid were born at this time. The birth (as vague as Kojima is known to be about such things) may be a reference to the project beginning.
Now, about what Liquid says: He mentions that he and Solid are twins, but twins from a batch of 12, where the others were killed in vitro. Liquid didn't know about the existence of Solidus either. Meaning that what Liquid knows should be considered skeptical. Ocelot even confirms this post credits in MGS where he says "No one knows you were the third one "Solidus". On top of the fact that he believed that he was the genetic inferior. Another fact Ocelot corrected.
Also under criticism is Liquid's insistence in MGS2 (via Ocelot as a medium) that Big Boss was in his 50's when he was cloned. If Big Boss was 50 in 1972, that would've made him at least 42 years old during the Snake Eater mission. And it seems incredibly odd that a 42 year old soldier is constantly referred to as "Boy" by the Cobra unit and Volgin. Liquid's knowledge should be dismissed.
No solid DOB is given for Snake, just a date for the beginning of the project. TotalTommyTerror 18:54, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Vandalism
I have noticed user User:65.190.242.217 engaging in the most inane acts of vandalism here. Injecting his own little opinions onto the site. I'd like to thank User:Peruvianllama for keeping an eye on the page. TotalTommyTerror 07:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
More than minor edits
I changed the text about the "Iroquois" name Snake uses in MGS2. The information should now match what he actually tells Raiden is the reasoning behind his moniker.
Also, I removed the following paragraph
According to the personal information supplied in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, he is 178 cm tall and weighed 75 kg and has an IQ of "over 160". In the updated stats featured in Metal Gear Solid, he is 182 cm tall and has an IQ of 180.
This sounds weird to me. I'm not debunking it, but I'm going to look into it. It felt disjaunted in its place in the article though. I'm just having a hard time finding "stats" in game.
TotalTommyTerror 11:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- The MG2 stats are found in that game's manual, though they say Snake's I.Q. is 160, not over 160. As for MGS, it wouldn't suprise me if someone used the stats listed for Liquid in the game's briefing mode. He's stated to have a height of 183 cm and an I.Q. of 180. Solid Snake doesn't appear to have his stats listed in briefing mode (unless they're in a hidden scene that I missed). I'd say run with the MG2 data unless something more recent comes to light.
I realize the Acid series is non-canonical, but the MGS1 Solid Snake card lists his I.Q. as 180. While the Acid series itself doesn't enter into the equation, the statistics on the card are most likely accurate. 71.197.144.129 05:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC) Matt Connellan