Talk:Historical negationism/Archive 3
Archives
European laws about revisionism should have its own article
From Archive 2:
- I think the article is improving in quality. There are a few outstanding issues. Personally I think the European laws about revisionism should have its own article, and expand in size, including a historical background; and this article link to it with a summary. Theres a lot more that could be said on that topic that would easily justify its own article. One of the main complaints here is that this one issue is dominating the article. Lapaz I know this is important to you and a lot of people, but this is the English language wikipedia and the vast majority (all?) English language countries have not outlawed revisionism, its just not "mainstream" for the majority of readers. We report on how the world is, not tell how it should be. -- Stbalbach 02:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Introduction
From Archive2:
- refusing to make an introduction of more than one sentence, namely: refusing to state that the Council of Europe defines revisionism as denial or downgrading of genocides or crimes against humanity, as given by the source (this definition is the only one concerning this type of revisionism, as opposed to the "neutral revisionism") and stating in which countries it is forbidden.
- I've added a single-sentence reference to revisionism legislation in Europe to the lead section. -- Stbalbach 03:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- I really think that the intro should clearly state the Council of Europe's definition as denial or downgrading of genocides & crimes against humanity; this is the only definition I can think of, and it's clear enough to see to what this apply. All other cases of revisionism would hereafter fall in the "neutral" revisionism entry, as they are not discussions of guiltiness or responsibility in crimes but simple historian job. Lapaz 15:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- There are other types of political historical revisionism covered by legislation (eg the French colonial example you introduced to the page) so to be specific in the introduction is misleading. --Philip Baird Shearer 16:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Plus in the summary its better to "dumb down" whats being said so it can be understood by anyone without assuming any prior knowledge of details. This is in the MoS. Most people will have no idea what the Council of Europe is, nor should they - just say its illegal in some countries - very clear and easy to understand. Details are in the article body. -- Stbalbach 02:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- There are other types of political historical revisionism covered by legislation (eg the French colonial example you introduced to the page) so to be specific in the introduction is misleading. --Philip Baird Shearer 16:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- I really think that the intro should clearly state the Council of Europe's definition as denial or downgrading of genocides & crimes against humanity; this is the only definition I can think of, and it's clear enough to see to what this apply. All other cases of revisionism would hereafter fall in the "neutral" revisionism entry, as they are not discussions of guiltiness or responsibility in crimes but simple historian job. Lapaz 15:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- I've added a single-sentence reference to revisionism legislation in Europe to the lead section. -- Stbalbach 03:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
See also:
Rwanda
- See Archive 2#Rwanda
Lapaz you wrote: "The context of the 1994 Rwandan Genocide continues to be an important matter of historical debate with charges of revisionism often lifted" do you mean "made" instead of "lifted"? How do these two references:
- http://www.un.org/WCAR/statements/rwanda_hrF.htm
- http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/12/propositions/pion0300.asp
which are in French, explain the sentence above. Using http://world.altavista.com/ to translate the pieces I do not see the direct relevence. They seem to be general pieces on the genocide not articles on historical revisionist. Please place the sentence from the articles (in the French original) on this talk page which you think are describe "with charges of revisionism often made".
Links to other language wikipedia are usually discouraged and definatly should not be put in as an ordiary link:
- fr:Mission d'information parlementaire sur le Rwanda (French Parliamentary Commission))
Besides which I am not sure what you are trying to say here. "Suspicions against French and United Nations (UN) policies in Rwanda between 1990 and 1994 led to the creation Suspicions of what? How is the sentence to historical revisionism?
"Some, such as François-Xavier Verschave, former president of French NGO Survie, have accused the French army of protecting the Hutus." Please explain why this is this to "Historical Revisionism"? Using Babel Fish Translation the http://www.amnistia.net/news/articles/negrwand/negrwand.htm article says: "Memory and revisionism of the Rwandan genocide in France" by Jean-Paul Gouteux
- Recently (in September 2003) Dominique de Villepin, Foreign Minister of Jacques Chirac, following François Mitterrand, spoke about "genocides" in Rwanda. This plural expressed the public adhesion of the former President of the Republic, like it expresses that of the current person in charge for the French diplomacy, with the theory revisionist known as of the "double genocide".
Which is much more pertaintant to this article than the rest of the above.
In 2005, a controversial book by while journalist Pierre Péan accused the Tutsis of "counter-genocide". I did a search on this and his book and there is very little about him or this book "Black Furies, White Liars" on the net IN ENGLISH. The only links could find to this issue were:
- http://www.genocidewatch.org/RwandarevisionismBookdeniesRwandangenocide.htm "Jewish and Black intellectuals in France are standing up to a new revisionist wave that is denying the Rwanda genocide."
- http://allafrica.com/stories/200601250468.html Rwanda Genocide Survivors to Take Legal Action Against Pean] Hirondelle News Agency (Lausanne) January 24, 2006
- http://allafrica.com/stories/200602061155.html Ignore French Writer, Ibuka Told. Another article from the same website.
- http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/france/5026 French Judeo-Black association Rwanda revisionism concerns
None of these are what I would call reliable, published sources. There are articles on his hatchet job on "Le Monde" eg: [1] [2] but that Péan's book "Black Furies, White Liars" has not been mentioned in the English language press ("Black Furies, White Liars" site:uk - did not match any documents") suggest to me that it is not a good example to place on this page. Has the book been published in English? --Philip Baird Shearer 12:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)