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Requests for new languages

This is an archived version of this page, as edited by 195.69.84.146 (talk) at 17:51, 3 October 2006 (→Surzhyk (19 Support, 11 Oppose)). It may differ significantly from the current version.
Note: In the very near future this page, among others, may be integrated into the process at Wikimedia Incubator. You may wish to withhold suggestions until the interchange is complete.

A copy of this page is in Incubator:Proposals for new projects This page is intended for discussing the creation of new language editions of existing projects. This is not the page to propose a new project.

Projects

Information

Subpages

See also the subpages:

  • Support
    • No supporters (Luba-Katanga, South Ndebele, North Ndebele, Ojibwe, Tigre, Inari Sami, Skolt Sami, Indian English, Kokborok, Porjidlo);
    • One supporter (Hindustani, Unserdeutsch, Mayan, Mikasuki, Real Dutch, Palauan, Haida, Azeri with other alphabets, Silbo Gomero, Fala&Extremaduran, American English, Bahasa Riau, Filipino, Rotas)
    • Need support from native speakers

Procedure

There are several steps to follow if you would like to create a new language Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikibooks, Wikisource, Wikiquote, or Wikiversity. The Wikimedia Commons and Wikispecies are multi-lingual projects, meaning that there are no separate editions for individual languages. The Wikisource project has its own page to request a new language.

  1. Peruse the complete list of Wikimedia projects. If the language you are looking for is not listed, look for very similar languages. Your proposed language must be sufficiently different, in its written form, from any other already-created language.
  2. You must have an account here on the Meta wiki.
  3. Copy and paste the template to the end of the discussion ongoing section.
  4. Find the ISO 639-2 code or propose a code for your language (for future compatibility, be sure to consult the ISO 639-3 draft, which covers most of the world's languages). If scripts would need to be coded see: en:ISO 15924
  5. Fill in all fields in the template.
  6. If many potential contributors to your language's wiki are likely to speak a different language that already has a wiki, try and drum up support at a community discussion area on that wiki. Encourage anyone who wants to contribute to your proposed language to come to this page and add their support for your proposal.
  7. If there is a consensus to create a wiki in your proposed language, send a message to the appropriate mailing list asking a developer to set up the wiki.
  8. Be patient, as our developers are very busy volunteers. You may work on articles, interface files and help or instruction pages using an offline word processor so that you can quickly get your new wiki going. You may want to look at the List of articles all languages should have.

FAQ

  1. What do I do if there is no ISO code for my language?
    If there is no standard code (no ISO code) for your language, you will need to propose a code that is more than three letters long. The most standard way to create a code is to use a generic code for a language family (such as gem for Germanic languages) and a three letter code for the proposed language, resulting in codes like fiu-vro (from the code for other Finno-Ugric languages and the Voro language) and roa-rup (from the code for other Romance languages and the Aromanian language). This procedure may not be ideal for all circumstances, but should be followed if reasonable.
  2. How do I know if my language is sufficiently different from a language that already has a wiki?
    This is an issue that is decided by consensus.
  3. Can there be wikis in ancient languages?
    Yes. There are already wikis available in Latin, Old English, Gothic and Pali. Please add new requests for wikis in ancient languages to Requests for new languages/Ancient.
  4. Can there be wikis in artificial languages?

    Yes. There are already wikis available in Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua, Interlingue, Lojban , Volapük. There used to be a Toki Pona wiki, but it was decided that the Toki Pona language was not used widely enough to support a wiki.

    However, it is quite possible that a fictional language will get little favor. Many considered the existence of the Klingon Wikipedia to be unacceptable, and a proposal to shut it down eventually succeeded (See also Talk page).

    Please place all new requests for Wikipedias in artificial languages at Requests for new languages/Non-natural.

  5. How many speakers are necessary?

    No language has ever been refused solely because of an insufficient number of speakers. For natural languages, this will probably never be an issue; for artificial languages, however, a low number of speakers may be taken as evidence that the language is not widely spoken enough to deserve a wiki.

    The actual number of users who know the language and work on the wiki is an important issue, but it is not known how many are necessary for a wiki to gain momentum and solid growth. The dedication of the users may be more important than the number, since a few devoted users may write more, and higher quality, articles than a larger number of casual users.

Template

Template:New-language-template

Discussion ongoing

Please don't forget to log in (especially if you want to vote on a request). Thank you!

Upper Silesian Wikipedia

submitted verification final decision
  This proposal has been closed as part of a reform of the request process.
This request has not necessarily been rejected, and new requests are welcome. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

This discussion was created before the implementation of the Language proposal policy, and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the instructions). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). —{admin} Pathoschild 22:02:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Proposal summary
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.
  • Number of speakers: 483,000
    (? is it really countable ? Also large amounts of native speakers consider it as a dialect of Polish not seperate language D_T_G 16:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC))[reply]
  • Locations spoken: South Poland: Silesian Voivodeship, Opole Voivodeship; neighbouring areas of the Czech Republic (so called "Zaolzie" - a part of Cieszyn Silesia), but Cieszyn Silesian considered to be too different to be in the same wiki

Summary

Support:

  1. Bartek m0 (proposer)
  2. stAn N
  3. Przykuta N
  4. Drozdp N
  5. Nowis N
  6. kirq N
  7. Jaborygyn N
  8. Hermann N
  9. Pimke N
  10. Adrianer N
  11. Szoltys1990 N I agree with Artur and Tristan (Szoltys1990 at pl-wiki)
  12. Kamilus Silesius N
  13. Buzkid
  14. Hégésippe Cormier
  15. Ausir
  16. Taw
  17. TOR
  18. Datrio
  19. Adziura
  20. J"E"D (Ency)
  21. WarX
  22. Polimerek
  23. Caesarion
  24. Critto (Critto at pl-wiki)
  25. Eteru I'm not an Upper-Silesian native speaker. Neither, I consider it a separate language, but I do support the efforts to preserve and promote own culture.
  26. ABach
  27. Excumbed (Excumbed at pl-wiki)
    Wisnia13 - There is no such Wikipedian neither pl-wiki or en-wiki, only at meta (two edits). I moved it to not logged-in votes D T G 15:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  28. Kroton (Kroton at pl-wiki)
  29. Slawojar
  30. Edi1123
  31. Filemon
  32. MatthiasGor
  33. Endriuj (Endriuj at pl-wiki)
  34. Antares
    Michał
  35. Uncle Davey
  36. IJzeren Jan
  37. Kajo
  38. Melancholie
  39. Tuvok
  40. Pojdulos
  41. Dobromila
  42. Brosen
  43. Mix321
  44. ToAr
  45. Kondzio199011:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  46. Marcimon
  47. Radegast89
  48. Bartekbas
  49. Xabi (Xabi at pl-wiki)
  50. Halibutt (native speaker of Polish, basic Silesian)
  51. nl:Gebruiker:Boudewijn Idema
  52. SupportSroulik 16:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  53. Support--Vladyslav Savelo 00:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  54. Jeffrey Garland 14:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC) . Language (I learnt from polish site) is normalised and codificated. That's why I support it.[reply]

Oppose:

  1. Jörg Knappen (not enough supporters at the time of the vote)
  2. Borkowicz (because all Silesians know Polish anyway)
  3. Wanted (most Silesians use Polish as their primary language, no standardized spelling)
  4. Radomil (Polish speaker, Poznań dialect) not separate language, only dialect of Polish, no standardized spelling
  5. Arbeo
  6. Kpjas
  7. Panther
  8. Gdarin | talk
  9. Molobo (Molobo at en-wiki)
  10. Herr Kriss (explaination in comments section) N
  11. Chepry it's not a real language, actually it's not even a dialect
  12. tsca ✉ - this really should be a Wiktionary; the supporters are discussing the vocabulary and spelling
  13. Toudi
  14. Tompot (Tompot at pl-wiki) (Silesian is not a language it's dialect with a lot affiliations with [[1]])
    I would say Czech language had bigger influence ;P D T G 15:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Raetius - Oppose - (see other comments) similiar as user- Wisnia13
  15. Sobol dajcie ludzie luz. Jak bedzie coś takiego wyglądać: Jo je ślonzyok i je ja hop N
  16. LUCPOL 10:45, 10 March 2006 (UTC) Byda za, jeśli to bydzie śląsko wikipedia, a nie jakaś tam górnośląsko...[reply]
  17. Darwinek it's not a real language, actually it's not even a dialect
  18. D_T_G N I made my mind. Actually I oppose creating Silesian Wikipedia in such weird way, see comments section.
  19. Michał - very different from Polish, but it's still a dialect, not as Kashubian, which has its own traditions, poems, literature etc.
  20. Botev no standarized spelling, see discussion below
  21. No standard spelling, linguists divided over whether it's a language at all, and even if it is, it will never grow to any reasonable size anyway. +Hexagon1 (talk) 10:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  22. Kolanin 21:02, 19 June 2006 (CEST)
  23. Angr 11:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC): spoken dialect only, no literary tradition, no ISO-639 code[reply]
  24. Paelius 09:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  25. Szwedzki 13:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC). No standardized spelling, still a dialect.[reply]
  26. Radekk no ISO-639 code
  27. Egon 07:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  28. Jeroenvrp 13:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC) - This is a dialect of Polish.[reply]
  29. Test wikipedia is dead -- Raghav 14:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • This proposal was mistakenly placed on the subpage for non-natural languages by an anonymous user. I have moved it to allow it full consideration. Tuf-Kat 04:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I support the creation of this wiki.
      • I support its creation, too. There are lots of people in Silesia who speak Silesian, and the language is an important part of Silesian identity. Besides, though this isn't neccessarily related to the language, more than 100,000 people declared Silesian nationality in the last census in Poland. Organizations like Ruch Autonomii Slaska (Silesian Authonomy Movement), promote Silesian identity and living in peace and agreement with all other nationalities in all of Europe. Critto
      • Gush don't forget about us: Cieszyn Silesians, we are also Silesians, but propably never be of Silesian nationality, and will be never talking about our dialect a stand-alone language. I'm really bored with you to speak about that you are not "only real Silesians", for me you're just "Prajsok" or "Sapieron", and if you wan't understand me, please read all my answers here. Don't forget that this project is renamed to Upper Silesian not (all) Silesian. D_T_G 17:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is said here, that the most related languages for Silesian (in Polish it si called Śląski język - am I right?) are Polish, Czech and German. But, as far as I understand, both Czach and Polish (and Silesian?) are slavic while German belongs to german group of languages. Please tell us how could it be? Is Silesian a mixed language? Porjidlo 18:05, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • The designation Silesian can refer to two varieties, one Germanic and one Slavonic. It might be a mistake. I can't make out which Silesian is intended, and I will not give any support as long as the proposer does not clarify that. Caesarion Velim, non opto 20:45, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Caesarion, the more specific details given about it clarify that it's referring to the Slavic one: 1) Proposer is Polish; 2) Language code used is sli, which refers to the Slavic one; 3) Link to English article is to one about Slavic one; 4) "South Poland, Voivodship Silesian" indicates Slavic again. --Node ue 22:47, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • The code "sli" is used for Lower Silesian (Germanic), which is also spoken in southern Poland, near to where Upper Silesian (Slavic) is spoken. It looks like this proposal is for Upper Silesian, but the proposer should make that a bit clearer. Also, since there's no official code for Upper Silesian, they'll need to propose one (maybe sla-sil). --Chamdarae 11:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, most evidence speaks for the Slavic idiom indeed. If that is correct, German should not be quoted as a "related language", because it only provides some loanwords etc. to the Slavic Silesian but is no close relative. Apart from that, I have yet to make up my mind about this request (same old question: language or dialect?) Arbeo 16:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • The code "sli" is used for Lower Silesian (Germanic), which is also spoken in southern Poland(...) There is no Lower Silesian (Germianic) spoken in Lower Silesia now. Probably there was such a dialect in Silesia but it's simply dead as Germans moved (or were moved) due to international agreements after WWII - and simply died... Presently so called Silesian is only a dialect of Polish - it's not a stand alone language as Kaszëbe and while using this term we think about an Upper Silesian dialect. Refering to Lower Silesia we can hardly speak about a particular dialect as the language there is an official Polish with slight rests of a dialect of the people who migrated from the East after WWII and influences of dialects from Upper Silesia and Wielkopolska. Language used in Western Poland (in so-called regained lands) is the closest to the official one (hochPolish :) ). However differences between regions aren't big due to communists' unilateralization policy. If you'd have any question regarding Lower Silesia (I'm from there =) just ask. =) Aegis Maelstrom 02:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • "sli" is still the code for Lower Silesian, even if it is moribund (or even extinct). There is no code for Upper Silesian, because Ethnologue treats it as a dialect of Polish. From what you're saying it sounds unlikely that there will be a request for a Lower Silesian wikipedia, but even so Upper Silesian would need to use a different code. --Chamdarae 11:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • "sli" Lower silesian is neither dead nor dying, since it continues to be spoken on the left bank of river Neisse (around Goerlitz). I agree that you hardly find any speakers of it in the now polish territory, because ethnic cleansing was almost to 100% there.
              • Here I agree. Regarding (Upper) Silesian - as I have mentioned:) it is a dialect - like Polish highlanders' dialect. IMHO it's not that dramatic kind of difference like between Hochdeutsch and Niederdeutsch, for instance although it can be sometimes difficult to understand for a standard-only Polish user. It could be even funny to see these Wikipedias and personally I could learn something interesting about smaller cultures within Polish culture and ethnicity. The only thing I'm afraid is if there are enough passionates to run these projects. :] Aegis Maelstrom 06:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support--Buzkid 00:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC) Yes, because it is a mother language of many otherwise bilingual peoples. European minor language are very important in culture of own and their history also.[reply]
  • Support it seems its kind of middle to Czechian and Polish . -Todmir
  • Support, but enough native speakers have to be found. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 04:24, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, silesian is not my native language but I was born here and I speak silesian very well. Silesian sounds slavic but many words are german (tankshtela - gas station; gruba - coalmine; klapshnita - sandwich etc) stAn 23:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm interested to know how different Silesian is from Polish - is there much difficulty with communication? Also, what do most people generally speak? Silesian? Polish-ised Silesian? Silesian-ised Polish? Standard Polish? Or a mixture of these according to the situation? And is there much difference between Silesian in Poland, and Silesian in the Czech Republic? --Chamdarae 11:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Pure Silesian is different, people who speaks only Polish can't understood it. People who understand Old-polish (becouse Silesian contains also words from ancient Polish) and German should understood most. But now on Silesia most people speaks Polish, people who speaks Silesian are minority (becouse of migrations afrer IIWW ). There are some comunities living in Ruda Śląska, Bytom, and in some districts of Katowice, Zabrze, Chorzów etc. Many people speaks now partly Silesian, they speaks Polish with some Silesian words (like I do). Pure silesian is dying language now. In communist times Silesian wasn't forbidden but if you want get to the higher level in hierarchy you shouldn't use this language - Silesian was language of labourers, mostly coalminers and steelworkers. I don't know the situation in Czech Republic. stAn 13:51, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The poll is on since November 7, but only 2 speakers of slavonic silesian and 3 more supporters showed up. This is not a sufficient base for a new wikipedia, I'm afraid. Jörg Knappen 17:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support if enough native speakers appear. As far as I know, though, Silesian doesn't have one standard for otography, unlike Kashubian. Won't that be a problem? Or will more than one standad be accepttable or automated conversion will be used? As for the ___domain name, maybe pl-sil if we can't use sil itself? Ausir 10:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support So, if you want, look for difference in grammar - Gwara śląska (it is only part of differences), [[[:wikt:pl:Wikipedysta:Przykuta/słownik_gwary_śląskiej|here]]] and here too to find differences in used words. Problems are - 1. how to note in Silesian, and 2. problem with different dialects of Silesian, but -Zeflik, mosz przi rynce ta luftplompa uod moplika, ale? Are you able to translate it? :) Przykuta 22:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support of course Drozdp 12:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, Przykuta: I couldn't translate your sentence, but try this: Przyniosłech wom dule, dejcie jeji w przód zależeć, tu jeszcze kapki agrezu, jo mioł wiyncej, ale dejcie pozór, bo mie zokrynta strzyliła i mie wykipiało ryszte, a ni jeżech pampóniem co by jóm narechcić. Jaktóż chcycie tyż uherki, cobych sie nie wyrzgoł za fest? Believe me I was a witness of a talk between Silesians from Cieszyn and Upper Silesia, they had really big problems to understand each other... If you really want to call that "the language", please don't refer it to Cieszyn Silesia (and Zaolzie as well, cause it's a part of Cieszyn Silesia, they speak mainly as we (at Polish side), but propably Czech language had some minor influence on it. I cant imagine how I would work at that new Wikipedia using my local Silesian dialect. D_T_G
    • So, do you oppose the creation of Upper Silesian Wikipedia generally, or just oppose the creation of a common Wikipedia for both Cieszyn and Upper Silesian? Ausir 14:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • If they will underline that it is written in UPPER Silesian not (all Silesians language) I won't be oppose. "U nos to zrazu idzie poznać sapieronów po jich godce, bo oni jóm majóm inszóm" this simple sentence show's how much we fill different from Upper Silesians. D_T_G 14:57, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think tbe best thing to do would be renaming the request to "Upper Silesian Wikipedia" to avoid confusion with both Cieszyn Silesian and the Germanic Lower Silesian. Ausir 15:54, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but only if it's called Upper Silesian. (/me is from Lower Silesia, and we have nothing to do with this language/dialect). Taw 16:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - of course the Silesian mentioned here is the "Upper Silesian (Slavonic)" because the is de facto dead Adrianer (Adrianer) 18:18, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - why? I think that Silesians know polish langueage and speed of Wikipedia isn't very speed, is it? So why we will create another Wikipedia. (Sorry for mistakes, my english isn't very good what you can see. Borkowicz
    • We already have a Kashubian Wikipedia, and all Kashubians speak Polish as well. Same with dozens of other minority dialects from other countries which also have Wikipedias. Ausir 18:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Pobably all Sorbians speak german, and they have an own Wikipedia, Kashubians too, so i think that this is not a good argument Adrianer 19:14, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Most of the given number of people use Polish as their native language; also Silesian dialect doesn't have a defined spelling, which results in many variants of the same word. Wanted 18:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the moment: there are still too many open questions now (distinct enough from Polish?, which variant(s) could be used for a Wikipedia?, is there some common standard for writing Silesian?, geographical scope? ...). Maybe a Test Wikipedia could yield a little more clarity here. Arbeo 19:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - not a real language or even a dialect, rather tool for Silesian autonomy campaigners Kpjas 20:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose - (Upper) Silesian is not a language. Can you see it here? There is only German Lower Silesian, dialect of Standard German. The Silesian we talk about is an archaic form of Polish language with Czech and German influences. There is no standard of this dialect. It is different in Cieszyn, in Ruda Śląska and in almost every city of Silesia. talk 12:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So, we need test for that project. Przykuta 23:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support' NATIVE SPEAKER

Silesian is not a dialect of Standard German. It is a polish language, there are some discussion wheter it is a dialect or a language. The fact is, that Silesian has more different (original) elements that differentiate it from polish; many more then Kaszuby language. The gramma is therefore polish, some lexical elements are German. Please, look at some scientific research before you talk about some matters. The discussion is about the identity of people living in Silesia. In fact, there are some strong differencies between Cieszyn, Opole and Katowice - but all the regions belong to the Silesia or Upper Silesia. There are many people here who speak Silesian. There should be finally something where people from Silesia could talk about their matters in their language. Is something about the fairness... maj_chow

    • Please do not treat all Silesians from different regions like Cieszyn Silesians and Upper Silesians like they were the same. If you know Polish read here:
      Górny Śląsk nie jest jednolity narodowościowo, kulturalnie, a nawet różni go mentalność ludzka w różnych jego rejonach. Oto przedstawienie głównych podziałów ziemi górnośląskiej.
      And:
      Śląsk Cieszyński zamieszkują głównie Polacy wyznania ewangelicko-augsburskiego (...) It's an little untrue, cause here live a lot of katolics who are also Poles. (...)Potocznie mieszkańcy to tzw. cieszynioki czy cesaroki. Choć ziemie te, podobnie jak Opolszczyzna, mogą się nazywać górnośląskimi - to jednak w większości mieszkańcy tego nie chcą.
      It's true, for example I'm from Cieszyn Silesia am protestant and believe me: if someone would called me "Upper Silesian" or "Chanys" he would got me mad, we really really really fill different from Upper Silesians, and we have many many places like simple net forums to talk about our matter in our "language", if Wikipedia would be written in both Silesian dialects it would be really freak, cause our dialects differences are really big, we have been in two different countries, they in Prussia, we in Habsburgs' Imperium, those two hundred years influenced much on our dialects, see that these project has been renamed to Upper Silesian, and although Cieszyn Silesia is historically a part of Upper Silesia we will always underline that we are not Upper Silesians. BTW, I have hear it first time about bigger difference between pure Polish and Silesian than Kashubian and pure Polish, I speak in Cieszyn Silesian and have heard Kashubian, and would never say what you have just said :P Have you ever heard Cieszyn Silesian Dialect? D_T_G 17:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose No rules for the dialect as it varies from city to city. No common standard. Very limited use (the number of users is probabably a lot smaller then put) --Molobo 14:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • To everyone who objects on the grounds that it's just not a language - many regional dialects of other languages already have their Wikipedias as well. As for those who say it's not even a dialect but merely a slang, Rada Języka Polskiego (the Polish Language Council) disagrees, as it (and other institutions) calls it a dialect numerous times. Ausir 16:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'm native speaker, but there is a fact you cant deny - silesian isn't standardized yet, there are many 'schools' of writting in silesian, i think that first ppl must know how to write in silesian, cause otherwise silesian wiki would be a tower of babel. Also like Molobo said - there are many kinds of silesian, so which kind of silesian is the correct one? When there will be one way of writting silesian words and you will choose one kind of silesian as an official silesian wiki language i will support this idea, but i don't this that it's possible right now. Herr Kriss
    • Really small support. I'm Cieszyn Silesian native speaker, I was, am and always be afraid of making one standard of Silesian language. Firstly it will be very artificial, moreover it will be deffinitely closer to Upper Silesian not Cieszyn Silesian, and we will never support it. D_T_G 12:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The discussion got long so I will repeat it to make it clear: Upper Silesian Wiki would be a fun but it's difficult to make it useful rather than destructive.
    • Firstly, call it Upper Silesian - other parts of Silesia speak different languages (Lower uses pure Polish with a smaller addition of regionalisms than any other region of Poland!).
      • There is one problem, Silesian people which are using dialect, wouldn’t call themselves Upper Silesians only Silesians (Ślonzocy), so “Upper Silesian Wikipedia” would be incorrect, there is no such word in dialect like “Upper Silesian”. Correctly would be in “Ślonsko” in addition “Ślonsko” isn’t “Śląska” or “Stela”. --Nowis 23:19, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Firstly stela means "from hear" - I would never called any Wikipedia in such way. Secondly not all ethnic Silesians would call themselves "Ślonzok", in Cieszyn Silesia they would call themselves Cieszyniok and Ślónzok (read Shlunzok not Shlonzok). And some Upper Silesians would call themselves "Upper Silesian" - "Górnoślonzok" in Opole Silesia :) D_T_G 20:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Secondly, call it dialect, as it's not a language.
    • Then, try to standarize it and make sure you don't create a new dialect/language. Don't do it jut by yourselves.
    • And finally, make sure it is not a tool in hands of the few frustrated politicians who will show up and try to become famous playing the card of "national Wikipedia", cultural proof etc. It is not and it shouldn't be although if it would help to preserve this culture, all at least its remainings for future generations and teach other people about it, I would be very happy with that. Greets and good luck! aegis maelstrom δ 03:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Silesian has no one standard, as it is really a dialect continuum. But so are Alemannisch and Low German, which both have quite succesful Wikipedias despite the differences in different versions of the dialects. There is no one standard for writing Silesian, but some books and other texts in Silesian exist, which can be used as models. Ausir 18:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tere are also many books in Poznań dialect, wich is much more homogenic (due to smaller area of usage). "Silesian" is in fact a group of dialects, without any standarisation. Wikipedia is not place to find it, according to no orginal reserch rule. Radomil 22:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Silesian" is in fact a group of dialects, without any standarisation. Wikipedia is not place to find it, according to no orginal reserch rule. Radomil 22:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Silesian is a dialect continuum, but so are Alemannisch and Low German which already have their Wikipedias. Ausir 01:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The arguments: language, no language, dialect, not standardized etc. are irrelevant, just look at Alemannisch. I think Silesian does have the necessary speaker base who would be able to create a decent Wikipedia. However, I don't understand why the Silesian speakers are experimenting on the Polish wiki instead of creating a test-wiki on Meta, as it is usually the case. The choice of a spelling system for the Silesian wiki is none of my business, but realistically, I don't think that the spelling proposed on pl:Górnośląska wikipedia will be a huge success. It just seems way too weird. Please have a look at Mr. Grzegorz Wieczorek's proposal. The author seems very competent, why don't you guys invite him to cooperate? Tuvok 23:53, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to remind that Lacky janzyk (spelling Latsky language) promoted by Ondra Łysohory is commonly considered as a Czech dialect, although Ondra Łysohory - who has been writing poetry in that language was calling himself a Silesian. D_T_G 16:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would forgot to remind that large numbers of native speakers consider that spoke (Silesian) as a dialect of Polish language, only about 50 000 declared their language as "Silesian language", even 120 000 of 170 000 people who declared a Silesian nationality declared their mother tongue as a Polish language. Many of them looks at the actuall efforts of codification (this codificated writing will be most propably used at Silesian/Upper Silesian Wikipedia) as a effort of "creating new language" and purposeful distinction from Polish language. D_T_G 20:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • So actually I oppose its creating. I'm afraid of really weird spelling (as also noticed Tuvok) made in order to POV-pushing that it is a distinct language. In my opinion the proposed Silesian Wikipedia should be made for all Silesians and writing must be a consensus between Silesians who consider Silesian as a seperate language and as only a dialect of Polish (which are in majority). D_T_G 22:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I oppose as long as we don't agree on which spelling standard is going to be used. Only under the condition that such standard is picked up AND the Wikipedia is called Upper Silesian I shall vote in favour of its creation. For the time being I am against. Botev
    Yes but the name of Wikipedia wouldn't be written in polish "Śląska" or english "Silesian", but in Silesian dialect Ślůnsko or Ślojnsko. This make a difference.--Nowis 20:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support nl:Gebruiker:Boudewijn Idema, 14:11, 1 September 2006

Pfälzisch (21 support, 7 oppose, 2 neutral)

Template:New-language-template Words from person who made the request: Pfälzisch (in English perhaps Palatinian) is a German dialect, spoken in the South-West. Nearly everyone who lives there and whose ancestors come from there is able to speak the dialect. 84.171.216.148 January 6, 2005 14:53 (CET)

  • Support--Conceyeiru 19:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC) I think they can devolope its own wiki[reply]
  • Support--Llionés 15:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC) I lived for years in this German region and learned to love its dialect or language, which you don't understand if you only speak upper German.[reply]
  • Support--Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 17:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Belgian man (nl na en) 13:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Caesarion Dear anonymous user, did you post a message about this at de:Wikipedia:Fragen zur Wikipedia? 13:50, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Come on. There is a Ripuarian Wikipedia, so why not a Palation one??? --Abzt 16:53, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral, because I would like to get more information. But I've added the template above and the links to articles about the language, where there was only a poor paragraph to request. German users are the key for this request. I hope they will have some interest for it, and find enough native or advanced users to help it. :o) Hégésippe | ±Θ± 05:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • moderate Support. I love the language, several near to me use it every day. I cannot support it as an author because I'm not in sufficient command of the language. Hint: Approved_requests_for_new_languages has a section titled Pennsylvania German which is a closely related yet distinct language. Purodha Blissenbach 01:37, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Who on earth would benefit from a Wikipedia in this German dialect? Not a single person because _every_ single speaker knows High German just as well or better. I don't live there but I bet when they write something down they write it down not in dialect but in High German like just everybody else in Germany. High German has specialised terms for all fields of science, the dialects mostly don't. The High German wikipedia will always be a source of information many times bigger and better then the Pfälzisch one - so the Pfälzisch one will actually be useless. I could go on with a few more points but I think it's enough now. -- Raetius 11:56, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • We have had some very similar discussions before: Pfälzisch should be considered a seperate language - and would, if the concepts of Germany, Germans and "the" German language didn't exist. Caesarion 13:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Raetius is wrong. I personally know many people from Palatinate who do not speak the so called "High German" although they moderately understand it on TV etc. when they read (German) books or newspapers loudly, they do so in palatinian. Whenever wording or grammar do not match well enough, the outcome is funny for non-Palatinians. The majority of those people is from rural areas, elderly, hardly computer-literate, neither reading or writing English; so they're unlikely to show up here and vote. -- Purodha Blissenbach 13:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Pfälzisch is not a separate language, just a specific mispronouncing of a German province. Moreover, where should this trend to create new splitted WPs lead? 84.163.38.161 21:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, but if still have the dumb conviction that regioanl languages are "mispronunciations" of standard languages, you have absolutely NO business here!!! Dialects are older, much, much older than standard languages, start reading at least something about West Germanic dialects before you ever do one edit to this page again! Caesarion 23:16, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral - by the way, I oppose a Portuguese wikipedia. Portuguese is not a separate language. It's just a mispronouncing of a Spanish province. Stettlerj 22:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - as it was said, no one there would write down something in that dialect. The only German Dialects which are sometimes used as a written language are (AFAIK) Lower German and Swiss German, which both have already a Wikipedia. Everyone who speaks/understands Pfälzisch can also understand High German and get information at de:. That Pfälzisch Wikipedia would only be a copy of some easy "translated" de: articles to have many language links in the articles in High German. --Steffen Löwe Gera 09:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • No it wouldn't. Any new Wikipedia is created of its own. The Limburgic Wikipedia is not just an easy translation of the Dutch Wikipedia, neither are the Platt and Alemannic Wikipedias, even though they all know German and write it with more ease than their own vernacular language. Any natural language (and Pfälzisch is a language of its own indeed!) deserves to be written down and cultivated, no matter whether it suffers low prestige or the presence of a standard language. The only thing we should be worried about is whether there are contributors for it, or perhaps if the proposed Wikipedia will not be redundant with an existing project. Caesarion 09:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • SUPPORT well, it's the same old story and dance... if we use such a deletionist criteria, then NO language is needed, apart from US English. Who on earth is going to use a computer without knowing at least basic English? So why on earth would you need a German wiki at all? Still you have it, and it made a wonderful edition, too. I think these guys have the right to speak and write as they wish (no matter whether you call this a language, a dialect, or just a mispronounciation). If they can make a good wiki, then why not? And since it's so easy for Germans to read and speak in Pfälzisch (it's just a different sound, isn't it? ;) then de.wiki will have no problems in importing any interesting content from it. That's if we have to be logical (which is the very least you'd expect from people writing an encyclopedia). --Bertodsera 10:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. No need for this. It's not Wikipedia's business to cultivate languages. All Pfälzisch speakers benefit from the German Wikipedia just as much as all the other German speakers do. That should suffice. – Jondor 13:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It may not be WP's business to cultivate languages, but it certainly is Wikipedia's business to help out those who cultivate their languages and give them the opportunity to make their own Wikipedia. Mr. Jondor, all Catalan speakers can use the Spanish Wikipedia very well, but the Catalan Wikipedia was created on the very same day as the Spanish was. So not allowing certain languages their own Wikipedias goes counter to the policy Wikipedia has been leading for five years now. Caesarion 13:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would work with, if such a wikipedia existed (I'm the one who asked for). I'm also a native speaker. My username on the German wikipedia is SPS, btw. -- 84.171.227.43 17:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • SupportI am a native speaker of Palatian, and would help with a palatian Wiki, whether it exists. If the alemannic wikipedia has a "right to exist", I would say a Palatian would have it, too. I would also propose another language code. PAL would be more apposite than PFL. If you aquate the "ä" with the "a", PAL would be the first three letters of te language name in English (Palatinate), and in Palatian itself (Pälzisch). PaelzerBu 13:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've just changed the title, cause I had counted six supports, and not just five ;-) --de:Benutzer:SPS 13.02.2006 12:46 (CET)
  • Oppose - Pfälzisch is German. There is one common standard for writing German that covers all regional spoken variants. No other standard than Hochdeutsch is ever used in non-fictional texts (for good reasons, I guess). Ignoring this fact and trying to create Wikipedias for all different spoken "Germans" will very probably lead to a plethora of incomplete, unreliable wikis of inferior quality forever redundant with the mutually intelligible, first-rate standard German WP. Nichts gegen Lokalpatriotismus - but I'd strongly disencourage such a development. Arbeo 17:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Arbeo, you're appearing stupidly ignorant to me in you ongoing attempts to descredit the root languages from which current Standard German has been created. Read the Article on the German language, it is an artificial language and thus should not have a Wikipedia would be as much an exaggeraton as your statements - only bending reality to the other end. However good, or complete, any Wikipedia will be, should not be anyones but the contributors business in the first place, and before not a comparable amount of labor has been invested, a 'comparison' to the German WP is impossible and pure perjudice. Your (presumably intentionally) false claim about all non-fictional text were in Standard German is ignoring the tiny bit of more than 1000 years of history before something like Standard was begun to be constructed, driven by political interest, and even evidently false thereafter. The Hanse, a multinational organization comparable to EFTA, EWG, or the current European Union (at least) in its early years, always had Low German, (Plattdüütsch) as their official language. The EU only recently embraced the baltic states and is slowly catching up somewhat to the former Hanse. Read the "German Dialect" section in the German Wikipedia Article on false friends - it lists a handful words that are different betwwen Standard German and some other German language, and at the same time prone to provoke misunderstandings since they're sounding similar to something else. These examples are not even the snowflake on the tip of the iceberg. For one German minority language alone, I could give you a list of several hundreds more 'false friend' words, leave alone the ones not bearing any similarities, leave alone the fact, that there are almost no identical words (sharing both meaning and pronounciation) leave alone quite remarkable differences of grammars. (Compare this to e.g. language pairs like Dutch/Afrikaans, Bokmâl/Nynorsk, Urdu/Hindi - all undoubtedly different languages recognized by international standards on the highest possible level of differentiation, ISO-369-1 - even though Hindi/Urdu are 100% mutually intellegible deviating in less than 2 dozen words) There is a motion of ultra right wing extremists that there should be ony one unified language with which all others must be brought in line (see also German Wikipedia on Luxembourgish, re dräimol Lëtzebuergesch, under Hitlers reign). Arbeo I offer you an examination to publicly prove your claim, that there were only some slight spelling deviations between the various Languages of Germany. Knowing of the huge set of 'false friend's at disposition, I know that you're bound to fail a test, if you're really as ignorant as you appear to be presenting youself here. If you take the challenge and do not fail, however, that would then clearly document that (a) vast differences in additon to spelling exist, and (b) make evident that you are very knowleadgeable about them and purpously misinforming readers here, likely following some hidden personal or politcal agenda. Interested? -- Purodha Blissenbach 16:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose NO NO NO! See Arbeo - what next Berlinerisch? Where is the end, if any minor dialect gets his won Wiki? Kenwilliams 20:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ken, have you ever heard of the slippery slope logical fallacy? This is it! "We can't admit variant X, that'll lead us to accept even smaller scale variant Y in the future". I recommend that you stay away as long as you do not show any knowledge of the linguistical landscape in Germany. The term "German" is very, very unlucky, since the variants spoken by people identifying as German are, however related, definitely not the same language. Saying that a Low Saxon or a Bavarian does not speak "German" as such (that means, either Standard German or another High Franconian dialect) does not mean he isn't German. Palatian is Middle Franconian, it has a different history and a different present state. Its speakers are Germans, their language may be German but it is a different language from the language of the Bundestag and the theatre. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 13:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Kenwilliams, if any minor dialect gets his won Wiki? (as you write), this would (a) only be for those language variants having enough supporters who also take on themselves to make an own Wikipedia and thus do not already feel at home in an existing one, i.e. if there is demand, and (b) it was exactly what Wikimedia Foundation set out to do in their mission statement. (c) Who does not like the language might safely ignore it's Wikipedia, and (d) it enriches the world. -- Purodha Blissenbach 01:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ciosek 20:59, 17 March 2006 (UTC) I see more logical arguments for support than to negate. Arguments for opose are quite illogical and some discriminatory - show NPOV love to standardization. w:Germanic substrate hypothesis[reply]
Title actualized once again --de:Benutzer:SPS 22:20, 10 April 2006 (CEST)
  • Oppose It's clearly a dialect, not a language. There's a definite dialect continuum and no "border" for Pfälzerisch. Plus, there's no standard orthography and not even a standardized "Hochpfälzerisch". Why didn't anyone suggest a Wikipedia in Sächsisch yet, or Erzgebirgisch? Or even better: Leipzigerisch (as the Sächsisch of Dresden and Leipzig is not the same). This request is quite silly in my opinion. If we had a Saxon Wikipedia, people from Dresden, Chemnitz and Leipzig would constantly edit between "ni", "net" and "nüsch". I imagine similar things for other dialects of German. —en:User:N-true 5:21, 15 April 2006
  • Support Like someone said, Ripuarian is a dialect of German, and we have that. 22:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Just a remark: I'm not veryknowledgeable about the Riparian, but I would say there are hundreds of them Riparian dialects, ranging from 'almost' Dutch of Heinsberg to 'almoist' Luxemburgian in the Eifel tops to 'almost' Palatinean somehere bwtween Koblenz/Mayen to indistinguishable from Limburgsian around Venlo to something very Plattdüütsch-like along a line from north of Oberhausen - Düsseldorf - Gummersbach - Siegen. All the mentioned 'Neighbors' but the Palatinians have their own Wikipedias, all are flourishing, and so is the Riparian. Good for Palatinian, I think, they will do well, too. 88.76.192.202
  • Support I would like to answer to some of the arguments used by the opponents of the proposal: Indeed, Pfälzisch is just a dialect but that is true for Alemannisch, Ripuarisch, Limburgisch and many other Wikipedias. If you read a text in Pfälzisch and know High German, you will surely be able to see a large difference, maybe more than between Czech and Slovakian, Croatian and Serbian, Danish and Norwegian, which are considered separate languages just for political reasons. Also, dialect does not simply mean a mispronunciation or a variation in pronunciation, for German linguists Dialekt means there is a different grammar and some different idioms (in Palatinian there are some taken from French and Yiddish), while a Mundart is more a regional pronunciation of the standard language. Examples for a Mundart are Sächsisch or Hessisch but I would not vote against a Wikipedia in Sächsisch, Hessisch, Fränkisch etc, as there are still enough people to work on the Standard German version, maybe even more because who can write good articles in a dialect will probably be able to do so in Standard German. There are theoretically be hundreds of thousands of people who speak Palatinian actively, are able to use a computer and to write articles, although the language is rarely to hear in towns like Heidelberg because it is considered as a sign for poor education and little knowledge by people who did not learn it in their youth. This process could be turned if a Wikipedia in Palatinian could motivate more people to write in what is actually their mother tongue. In rural areas in the west of the Palatine it is used in shops, offices, schools, restaurants and theatres and Standard German is somehow considered to be foreign and unusual, although all official documents are in Standard German because Palatinian is not considered a minority language like Plattdüütsch or Alsatian in France. If you ever heard German high-ranking politicians like Kurt Beck or Helmut Kohl speak on local event in the home area, you would quickly forget the idea that Pfälzisch is just a variation of High German. There should not be too many problems with orthography, as everybody could write in the dialect of his hometown, all of them are understandable (there is no need to have one Wikipedia in the dialect of Ludwigshafen and another one in that of Kaiserslautern, Mannheim, Heidelberg and so on - as little as there is a need to have several Wikipedias in the dialects of Leipzig, Dresden or Chemnitz;-)), as there is no standard orthography of written Palatinian no form can be considered wrong as long is someone speaks it and writes in it; the main thing is people write in the language they (or at least their parents and grand-parents) speak, which is classical and pure Palatinian. A Wikipedia in a dialect or a local language naturally never has a high scientific level, people write more about regional or every-day topics, articles on elaborate and more complicate topics are mostly direct translations but they never form the main part of the encyclopedia. By the way: There are versions in Manx and Cornish, which are actually extinct languages, Latin, which is not used by anybody as a mother tongue for centuries and even Gothic, in which just a few words are still known to us. As long as some people are interested in writing articles and know the dialect good enough to do so, there are no reasons against setting up a new Wikipedia. de:Benutzer:stefanbw 01:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Well said. From experience, I agree, discussing orthography/spelling is futile. This has implications:
      1. You may need quite many redirects for spelling variants. There is a tool under development that can make bulk submissions easy.
      2. You'll have to have a way to decide which spelling is going to be an article name. Pragmatic approach: keep the 1st writer's choice. Chances are, that creates an even distribution and no-one feels set back.
      3. You may need to (or want to) keep text consistent, at least at times. That needs contributors with awareness and knowledge.
      4. Category names are more problematic than article names, since their spelling has to be remembered by writers, who don't want to engage in time consuming look-ups all the time. There is a tool under development for navigating the category tree and select some for insertion.
      5. If there is demand, and/or there are suficiently different orthograpies, you may want, or even need to have, variant spellings of the language user interface. If present, these can be selected in the user preferences. Serbian and Chinese have that already. The group of Ripuarian languages will, too.
    • Good luck! --Purodha Blissenbach 01:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- de:Benutzer:Mundartpoet 21:55, 6 Aug 2006 (CEST)
  • Support. A very unique dialect of German--my great-grandmother spoke it. en:User:Caponer --Caponer 21:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • SupportI can't believe some of you actually oppose this.
  • Support. I lived years in that German region and learned to love Pfälzisch.--Llionés 16:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support -- Tobias Conradi 01:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opppose. Spoken dialect only, no literary tradition. Wikipedia isn't Asterix. Angr 11:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Sroulik 16:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There cannot be a Wikipedia in every dialect! Dialects are different in villages with small distances. What is common between dialect in Kaiserslautern and Ludwigshafen for example? The only thing is that they are German dialects and write German standard. So both should use the German Wikipedia!
Auf Deutsch: Man kann doch nicht für jeden Dialekt eine eigene Wikipedia aufmachen! Wir sollten lieber froh sein, dass es die deutsche Standard-Schriftsprache gibt, mit der wir uns alle problemlos verständigen können (auch in gesprochener Form) und nicht jeden regionalen Dialekt verschriftlichen wollen. Dies ging im Elsass schon daneben, mit dem Ergebnis, dass dort heute Französisch gesprochen wird! --Juhan 19:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Juhan You are opposing something that noone asked for. Not a Wikipedia for every town, but one for all of the Palatinian language varieties is being requested. That is for about as many people as living in Norway, for example. You must imho either allow Palatinian terms and Palatinian writing in the German Wikipedia, if you want to invite Palatinians to participate, or you have to allow them to go on their own. Opposing both - as you do here, and the German Wikipedia does by disallowing dialect use and most dialect term - together builds up to a harrassment against the Palatinian language which demands that it must not be used by people to express themselves (in the Wikipedia context, that is) Palatinian is no doubt one of the root languages, that todays German developed from. Why are German people so fascistly against their own roots? It is clearly a fascist attitude, when one says: "So both should use the German Wikipedia!" since it is you trying to tell someone else what to do, taking away his/her freedom to make his or her own choices. How would you feel if someone came along to tell you, since you're capable of reading and writing English, you should use the English Wikipedia which is five times bigger, far more acurate, etc. and the German language Wikipedia were now unavailable to you? --Miss van der Roehe 14:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

South Azerbaijan Wikipedia

submitted verification final decision
  This proposal has been closed as part of a reform of the request process.
This request has not necessarily been rejected, and new requests are welcome. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

This discussion was created before the implementation of the Language proposal policy, and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the instructions). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). —{admin} Pathoschild 02:03:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Proposal summary
  • Language details: "South Azerbaijan"! (آذری, azb ISO 639-3)
  • Editing community: BayBak (P)
    List your user name if you're interested in editing the wiki. Add "N" next to your
    name if you are a native speaker of this language.
  • Relevant pages: —
  • External links:
  • Ethnologue entry
  • baybak.com
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.
  • Number of speakers: About 50,000,000 in total. 40.000.000 South Azerbaijan (East and West Azerbaijan - Iran, Erdebil, Astara, Enzeli, Urmieh, Zenjan, Hemedan, Tehran, Merkezi and all nearby cities), 8,000,000 in Republic of Azerbaijan (useing different script), and few in neighbouring countries/abroad.
  • Locations spoken: South Azerbaijan, Republic of Azerbaijan, Turkey, Iraq, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Syria
  • Related languages: Turkic languages
If the South Azerbaijan use only arabic script, maybe use both scripts, as the Ladino Wikipedia.--Taichi - (あ！) 05:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do not agree with the opposer Taichi.
  • This is the language of the people who have a very long history of civilisation and saing that it is a dialect (from what?) is funny (or even silly) we are not talking about political references (not strong enough to be argued) this is the language of 40,000,000 people who are living in this real world (if not say how). This is not about me or your wishes or hopes.
  • User:BayBak somewhat clarifies the situation on his userpage: he wants to start an Azeri Wikipedia in Arabic script. Due to the shorthand-like nature of the Arabic script, it is impossible to write mutual script convertors for Latin script and Arabic script Azeri, so a seperate Wikipedia does make sense. However, I want to see some more native speakers supporting this initiative before I give my support. Caesarion 13:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is less to do with dialect and more to do with alphabet
  • 2 Support - I have heard that the differences are stronger than only a alphabet, South Azerbaijan has many words from arabic or persian language. D_T_G 19:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 4 Support Azeri in Iran is now quite different from that spoken in the Republic of Azerbaijan - the difference is more than just a difference in script. The official ISO code is azb. --Chamdarae 18:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral simply because I do not know how different this is from Azerbaijan. However, if integrating two scripts into one Wikipedia (as done in Romani and Ladino) is possible, I would prefer it. The Jade Knight 09:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • 5 Support I support this approach. If research came up with too broad a lingustic divide, or that a dual scripted wiki would technically not be feasible for the next years, then I support creating a separate one. -- Purodha Blissenbach 11:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3 Oppose Oppose Initially I thought of technical difficulties involving the set up of bi-alphabet Wikipedia, but I am convinced that the creation of a new Wikipedia just because of different script does not serve any purpose. Kurdish Wikipedia has already made use of Arabic and Latin scripts for three different Kurdish accents.
The Kurdish wikipedia is actually the Kurmanji language. I understand that the conversion from Latin to Arab scripts is not as easy as we are led to believe .. GerardM 21:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I can think of few bennefits for single bi-alphabet Azerbaycani Wikipedia :
  1. Better use of resources.(One Wikipedia for one language . )
  2. Allowing the users of both scripts to co-operate in developments of articles
  3. Mutual learning of alternative scripts.
  4. Following successful example of other Wikipedias such as Kurdish Kurdish, using Arabic and Latin scripts already.
I suggeste the use of bothe alphabets in one Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Mehrdad (n)


  • 4 Oppose Oppose (Reluctantly) I wanted to be neutral, but decided that it does not really serve any purpose. The difference, other than the script, is at the dialect level and it is in the spoken language. There is no official Azerbaijani use in Iran, as far as I know, and the language used in South Azerbaijani press and the literature is standard Azerbaijani. Literature sometimes do have local influences though, but it is the case with any language and in the Azerbaijan Republic too. Furthermore, Azerbaijani Wikipedia itself needs serious improvement and diverting the attention of a very limited number of native Azerbaijani speaking users will create two almost useless Wikipedias. My suggestion is that the Ladino Wikipedia example is suitable here and we should modify Azerbaijani Wikipedia to include articles in both scripts. --TimBits 21:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 7 Oppose I am also suggesting to modify the current Azerbaijani Wikipedia so that it supports both scripts. As a native Azerbaijani language speaker, besides knowing that what we are talking about here is the same language except the scripts used in Iran and Azerbaijan Republic, the reasons for doing so are the same as the reasons provided by User:Mehrdad and User:TimBits above. --Sed 14:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 8 Oppose I support idea of having two scripts in already existing Azerbaijani Wikipedia. I know old people in Azerbaijan who still be able to read Azerbaijani in Arabic script which been used and taught untill 1923. Admittedly, many people around the world are familiar with Latin script currently used in Azerbaijan, including South Azerbaijanis. The only barrier is a difference in dialects. This barrier seems very weak, while there're many South Azerbaijanis living and studying in North Azerbaijan and vice versa. Alphabet and Language in Transition issue of Azerbaijan International magazine covers articles regarding Arabic/Latin scripts. We need join our forces to build powerful Azerbaijani Wikipedia. --Rustam 05:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do not agree with the opposers
  • Note: I am very interested to know the level of the knowledge of opposers about South Azerbaijani Language. They do suggest something with no meaning. They do not have enough information. They are not able to understand the differences between a language and a dialect. Also they can not understand the differences between tow scripts.Azeri language is spoken by almost 40,000,000 people (we have wiki for languages with less than 10 million speakers). Azeri language is going to be recognised as the second official language of nowadays Iran on 2009. So this is proven by the authority that has banned it for years. If you do support banning a language, do it and be as clearly as you can. As I have mentioned before, I do not want to start any political argument (or discussion) on this page, but I am sure about the truth and need of my request. It is needed because we will have the right to use and improve our own language in near future. Please do not get upset of recognising an alive language (even if you do not like it). Reality is not what we wish! It is what it is. Many thanks to supporters. BayBak --Baybak 21:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dear BayBak , If there was no Azeri Wikipedia I could understand your frustration, but there is one in Latin script, ad currently we (Sys Admins of Azerbaijani Wikipedia) are discussing the work involved for inclusion development of Azeri with Arabic script[4]. Having Visited and impressed by the site you have developed single handed, wish you can help us develop the Azeri Wikipedia (Arabic Script). I am native speaker of Azeri, and familiar with both scripts, I would be more than happy to discuss your proposals further. sagolun . Mehrdad 03:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • سایقیلی مهرداد بَی، سیزون بو ایستک گرچک بیر ایستک اُلا بولمز چونکی (I wrote it to show the difference between 2 scripts) Dear Mehrdad, you are suggesting that we may have completely different scripts in one wiki! If this is the case, please tell me about benefits of that. You do not realise that the people who are able to read, write and understand these 2 scripts (like your self) are less than %5 (majority of South Aeries are not able/not willing to read/write Azeri by crylic script which is introduced to the North Azeries by Russian in 1980s. Before that we had same scripts, borders and actually everything), also we have people who do not want to use crylic /latin, they prefer to use their own scripts (improved and changed from sumerian - source for Azeri language) like myself. The main fact is that our language is banned in nowadays Iran, and because we are not happy of it and fighting for independence, so having everything written in our language by using our script is essential. Please do accept that having one wiki in 2 scripts has no use for this situation. BayBak 15:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear BayBak. Your efforts are really appreciated and we need contibutors like you in Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Currently we do not have too many users who can write in Azerbaijani with Arabic script. And by the way, there is no Azerbaijani Wikipedia in cryllic script, but this raises a question. There are many Azerbaijanis, especially older generation, who can write in cryllic but not in the current latin script. Then we might as well have a cryllic Azerbaijani Wikipedia too. One might say, yes why not. But the real question is that who will maintain 3 wikipedias in one single language? So, please come and join Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Oh, and I realized your page, it is a great work I should say, and you have the name birolmali.com- I just couldn't help but realize the irony and paradox of this and your position here. Thank you. --TimBits 16:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dear TimBits, I personally appreciate people, their beliefs and their language. But our problem lies here: We do not want/we can not force at least 30,000,000 to change their writing system which they are familiar with for ages. Also I have to point that this is a bit early to have this AZB wiki because of not having enough writers and admins, but having said that in near future and after introducing the wiki to my people in South Azerbaijan, there will be good activity started on that wiki. I strongly believe there is no use of having one wiki with mixed scripts. Literate people of South Azerbaijan can not follow Azeri written in either Crylic or Latin scripts. You will see it easily in our books, papers, web sites and all other written materials those are being produced every day in S-Azerbaijan. Please take time to research and read about our past before suggesting any thing. --Baybak 18:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I know about our past and that's why I am suggesting that we should work together to produce a useful wiki page. I do not beleive that a bi-script page is any less useful than a single script one. I do not have any reason to beleive it. And you still haven't responded wthether you want to be a part of this project or not. Whatever your decision is, I respect it. --TimBits 22:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dear TimBits Thanks for asking, this is kind of you, but I am sure that I will continue to build an independent wiki for South Azeri (AZB). I will continue as I am doing now (reading, writing and thinking in my own language). I wish you a successful life.BayBak یاشاسین آذربایجان --Baybak 03:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Differences are not solely in script. There are more people literate in Southern Azerbaijani than in Northern Azerbaijani. Furthermore, script is never only script the language has a history of a culture language written in Arabic script for centuries. Behemoth 01:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 9 Oppose - My native language is Azarbaijani (South) But I think that contribution by Latin Alphabet is better to both Azarbayjanies, because this language is same in north and south and only alphabets are different. Kurdish languages are differenet in root but they keep all kurdish languages in one wiki project. I think that seperation of south and north wikies is suspended idea . In common project South Azarbayjanies may be know better Latin alphabets and in another hand some of Azarbaijani wiki administrator are from South then they can work better in one project instead of two seperate projects.I request from az.wikipedia adminstraters for changig main page as Kurdish wiki for supporting both alphabets. یاشاسین گونی --Yoldas 19:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dear Yoldas ; Why you did ignor all the comments and explanations above and came up with the word: suspended! please be more careful in choosing your words. Be aware of that we are talking about the language of more than 30,000,000 people who do not use Latin alphabet at all! The people those have their own language banned!. Now how and why you want to intagrate these 2 different scripts in one wiki and make the new script of 8,000,000 (that is being used since 1990s)? How can you close your eyes on the majority of Azerbaijanies and their respectfull beliefs? Please, as I have mentioned above, we must be realistic as we can and do not panik of hearing new voices that comes from the new generation of South Azerbaijan. South will keep its Script together with its past and future. We have not changed our script for centuries (actually it belongs to us as well as is to Arabs and Persians), so do not even think we will change it. Speaking on my behalf, this is going to be tough but reality is the winner of history. We are looking beyond these, so far, victory. Also be patient and read/understand more about where you belong to.یاشاسین گونی ایله قوزِی BayBak --Baybak 22:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Dear BayBak , No one is asking or encouraging to change no ones script. What our friend Yoldas is pointing out is the fact that this arrangement of two script in one Wikipedia would bring more consorted efforts by users and administrators of the both scripts, and would make each side familiar with the other alphabet. I am very glad to let you know that since the suggestion for dual aphabetical Azerbaijani Wikipedia has been discussed, two of active users, one being an admin, have asked me for resources to learn the South Azerbaijani script. This is not only encouraging, I would say this is exciting. Mehrdad 02:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dear Yoldas , The work for the inclusion of the South Azerbaijani titles in the main page of Azeri Wikipedia has been started, and would love to hear users comments on that. http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri
We all need to help to set the background work for the bidirectional editing, templates, messages and more. Yoldash thanks for participating in this talk, and would love to meet you and BayBak in Azerbaijani Wikipedia. Mehrdad 02:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi, I just read this discussion (for the second time really after some days) ... what I can say is: I (personally ... so this is pure POV) don't like the way things are brought up here. Considering that we should only care about linguistical matters (NPOV) and not political matters here I would very kindly ask to reflect for a moment and ask yourself: are you linguistically prepared to answer these question? I must admit: I am not, even if I seem to recall that there is more than just a script difference. Well, I will look into this - and I don't know how long I will take to do so. But: we must remain impartial = NPOV please when it comes to North/South questions ... these tend to become political in mind even if we try not to be political (what a sentence ...). Please take a break from this discussion. Thank you! --Sabine 20:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 7 Support Strongly Support Why can't you people just let some 25 million people have their own wikipedia? All bi-alphabet wikipedias always end up having most articles in one script and not the other. For example, check out Kurdish Wikipedia. I can't believe people are supporting things like Zeelandic which are just dialects of other languages using the SAME ALPHABET but not for dialects that use different alphabets.--69.174.252.80 01:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Azerbaijani Wikipedia is already bi-alphabet, so in fact this request has already been obviated. As there are potentially more native Azerbaijani speakers using Arabic alphabet than Latin, in the long term I would predict that Azerbaijani Wikipedia will be the most successful of the bi-script wikis and can be a good example for other such projects. As for the supposed failure of other bi-script wikis, it certainly can not be a reason that would prevent commited editors from working on this project. --TimBits 02:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I too hope this will be more successful bi-script Wikipedia. I hope it will be successful bi-script unlike the other bi-script wikipedias. I hope they get more good helpful users like BayBak in making the Arabic Script version "catch up". I think the question of Cyrillic script Azerbaijani is to use the same tool they have at Serbian, but I don't think it's possible to do the same with Latin scripts and Arabic. Their too different.--69.174.252.80 17:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 10 Oppose get dual script working. It will be harder than Cyrillic/Latin but is feasible. I'm willing to work on this — interested parties should contact me. It will probably be easiest to do Latin->Arabic because of the vowel problem, cf. this which I have been working on. - FrancisTyers 19:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral: Political: I have a hard time understanding these (intentionally foggy, to me) political arguments. Is it true that speaking Azeri in Iran is currently prohibited, and that this may be lifted in 2009, if … ? - and an azb WP would support this likely more than an All-Azerbaijani Wikipedia which would rather help raise fears in politicians of Iran, of a region wanting to separate from Iran and form an Azerbaidjan-Reunited state? Please make sure that answers to this question come from independant/international sources only that are not potential subjects to political harrasment!
    Technical: When suggesting to make a triple-scripted WP, I mean that you can write something in one script, alter your user prefrences, and subsequently have everything shown in another script, including what you previously wrote. (As you have it with traditional/simplified Han Chinese, e.g.) While this seems not readily available for az yet, if it can be expected in a reasonable time, I'd suggest not to have a separate WP based on the argument of script alone. If such conversion needs dictionary assistance, have a look at Ultimate Wiktionary+WktionaryZ. --Purodha Blissenbach 11:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 11 Oppose seperation. Arabic and latin alphabets are aligned in the wrong sides of the screen and hence arent very compatible. It is unlikely for a person used to the arabic script to understand latin alphabet and vice versa. Simmilar seperation should be observed on other languages. Alternatively, it can all be merged to Turkish... --Cat out 18:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • From what I understand this is actualy a political nom. I have been informed that two diferent scripts can work fine and since the comunity on az. wiki uses both scripts I hereby oppose the suggestion. In order to change my vote I need reasons that has nothing to do with politics. --Cat out 19:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 9 Support تام دستک

آذربایجاندا و خصوصی ایله گونیده دیلیمیزه چوخلو ایجحاف اولونور. بونو دوردورماق اوچون اولدوغو ایمکانلاری ایشه آیمامیز گرکلیدیر. عرب آدلانان الیفبانی دستکلییرم --Tebriz 09:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • 11 Support I don't understand people that don't want new wikipedias...I supported it 'cos, if there are peole that spoke it, why they can't have his own wikipedia?--Norrin_strange
  • 12 Support This is a language spoken by many in a developing part of the world. It is important that people from this sort of area have access to knowledge freely, which may not be possible for them with the current Azerbaijani wikipedia. mm_pie 20:14 3 September 2006 (GMT)
Azerbaijani language Wikipedia, as explained below, exactly aims to do that. There are dedicated Iranian Azerbaijani users who help us achieving our goal of creating the perfect bi-script wiki. On the other hand, so far, there has not been a promise to contibute by anyone to this current request, other than the user who brought up the proposal. I again request that everyone, before making a decision, to take into consideration the fact that the Azerbaijani Wikipedia is already dual-script and this has pretty much obviated the current request. Thank you. --TimBits 19:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It seems some of our firiends here are not aware that Azerbaijani Wikipedia in two scripts already has established and up and running. The Arabic script has been integrated into the initially latin based Wikipedia:
  1. RtL Button tools Many features in the "edith" pages ease the use of Right-to-Left. Arabic script.
  1. List of all Arabic characters,above the Copy Right message, allows edithing in Arabic scripts for those who do not have Arabic keybord.
  1. Most of system messages are translitrated to Arabic script, and the rest are in the process of being translated.
The articles using Arabic alphabet are in increase, and those interested can participate to bring them to be in the same footing with the latin ones.
I invite all interested users to give a visit to http://az.wikipedia.org .
Mehrdad 18:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 12 Oppose Oppose it is one language in North- and South-Azerbaijan --Juhan 19:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


* Dear Mehrdad , why are you keep asking people to accept 2in1 wiki? What will happen to both parts of Azerbaijan after 10 years? Is it possible to have scripts changed again (as it has happend 4 times in the Northern part and once in South)?. If 1 script is changed by then, what will be your response? Will you fight them back? I understand that you work hard to keep your 2in1 wiki seems working, but this is a fact that 1 wiki for 1 script is the right thing to do. Please do not push/force, advertise/encourage people to accept your idea. At the end, please tell me of the benefits of your 2in1 wiki and the goals you achived by now. BayBak

Punjabi Shahmukhi Wikipedia

submitted verification final decision
  This proposal has been closed as part of a reform of the request process.
This request has not necessarily been rejected, and new requests are welcome. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

This discussion was created before the implementation of the Language proposal policy, and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the instructions). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). —{admin} Pathoschild 22:02:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Proposal summary
  • Language details: Punjabi (gurumukhi is it's origin[invented])
  • Editing community: Sikh (P)
    List your user name if you're interested in editing the wiki. Add "N" next to your
    name if you are a native speaker of this language.
  • Relevant pages: -
  • External links:
    —
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.
  • Number of speakers: 300 million
  • Locations spoken: United Punjab

A wiki for Punjabi already exists, however this is predominantly in the en:Gurmukhi script. Can we have a separate Wikipedia for the Arabic script? This enables easy interwiki linking and stops the current wiki from getting cluttered with multiple scripts. Sukh 00:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question:I'm not entirely sure I agree with this request. Also, why should Gurmukhi get the pa: ___domain while Shahmukhi gets the pa-pk: ___domain??
Answer:Locale data on the CLDR [5] lists only Gurmukhi for pa. Unfortunately , the Pakistan government does not support Punjabi and so it has had no official push in the Shahmukhi (arabic) script. The Indian state of Punjab uses it as an official language in the Gurmukhi script.
There is no greater reason to have Gurmukhi under 'pa' other than it's already in use there, with a partially translated interface. Indeed, more people speak Punjabi in Pakistan than in India (although few are literate in the language in Pakistan, no matter what script because Urdu is the official language). Pakistan has made it its aim to exterminate all of the native languages in the country in favour of Urdu, which incidentally is not native to the country :) Sukh 17:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Question: Can the scripts be converted automatically, similar to what's done on sr and zh? Speakhits 21:16, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Answer: No, they can't, since the Arabic script is very shorthand-like and leaves all vowels out. Superficially, Devanagari script has a similar approach but it is better suited for the Indian languages than Arabic script is. They're pretty incompatible. Caesarion 09:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Answer: Caesarion is correct. Indic abugidas (like Gurmukhi, Devanagari) can be converted to one another (Devanagari to Gurmukhi and back without loss of information), but not so easily to Arabic script. In actual fact, converting from Gurmukhi to Shahmukhi may not be too difficult, but doing it the other way round would cause problems. There is ways of doing it using dictionary look-ups I suppose, but no reliable method exists at the moment.
I think crucially, there is not a one-to-one mapping of characters and in several circumstances it would be impossible to detect which character to use without analysing the context (in terms of the word) it is used in. Sukh 17:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, though I think it's quite unfair to relegate it to pa-PK. Both Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi are scripts used by millions and millions of Punjabi people. Neither is less important. --Node ue 06:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I honestly wish that were the case. But Punjabi is neither encouraged or extensively used in text form in Pakistan (be it Shahmukhi, Gurmukhi or Latin). I suppose a different code could be "pa-arab" or something similar? Maybe Gurmukhi could move to "pa-guru" aswell? Sukh 21:46, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I support in principle as I know a number of Punjabi people, but there are so few contributors as it is, that I suggest waiting until a technical solution is developed. There are workings in place like Wikidata that could solve the multiple script problem. I don't see the value in splitting a project with so few contributors, though if you could recruit 30 or so contributors I'd be listening. I recommend just getting by in the meantime with articles in both scripts on the same wiki for now. And no, I haven't had any luck myself so far encouraging those people I know to contribute. - Taxman 15:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimately there will be no reliable automatic transliteration that is possible. However, if there is a reliable mechanism for dual scripts in the Wikis, then that's definately a plus - although I'm unsure about the consequences of interwiki linking.
I'm against the idea of waiting for enough people to contribute. There is one user in particular who wishes to start writing Shahmukhi articles and that should be enough. It'll always be more hassle to transfer at a later date. Sukh 21:46, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't assuming automatic transliteration, just good facilities for multiple scripts, and that is beeing worked on. Having two scripts on the same language isn't that big a problem, just set up a convention to link to the other version of the article, either through a link in the same spot on every article or use a template or a mediawiki message. The right to left and left to right sounds like more of a problem, try filing bug report for that. - Taxman 14:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose; the Punjabi Wikipedia barely has over 40 articles—what are the odds that this would do any better, if even as well? I recommend that articles written in Shahmukhi be included in the Punjabi Wikipedia, if at all possible (we deal with dialects in other Wikipedias, like Normand and Cornish, and the Romani Wikipedia even uses dual orthographies—perhaps it could be used as a model for Punjabi). The Jade Knight 09:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are problems with having it on the same Wiki, because the software does not provide adequate facilities for both scripts. For example, unless the user signs up and changes their preferences, page layout will still be left-to-right for Arabic readers. Also, there is a complication in terms of interwiki linking - how can you specify two script translations for articles in one wiki? Finally, there is the fact that we will end up with two communities of contributors who will be very unlikely to be able to communicate with each other, unless they resort to romanisation (wow, script number three) or English. Personally I think the excuse of there only being forty articles has nothing to do with the matter. It's a language spoken by nearly 100 million people... as more of them get online you'll get more contributors. Sukh 18:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you mean by two script translations for articles in one wiki. If you mean interwiki linking from another wikipedia, just do [[pa:Shahmukhi title]] and [[pa:Gurmucki title]]. And two communities of editors that both speak the same language is no worse to be on the same project than it is for them to be on separate projects and not communicate at all. And the short answer being if you can get more contributors, you'd get a ton of support votes. I and many others don't see the value of creating projects with few contributors. - Taxman 14:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose: Even if scripts can't be automaticly transliterated, it is still better to find a solution along the lines of zh and sh Wikipedia. Dual-script WPs can be done. --Mkill 12:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I as a speaker of Punjabi in Pakistan as a mother tongue strongly recommend that a Punjabi wikipedia in arabic script should be started. Much of its literature has been created here. And it would be unjust not to allow this.

Khalid Mahmood 16 September 2007

Wikiquote in french

 

Comments

  • There is currently no community. I'll be glad to support such an attempt to rebuild the french wikiquote, but only if you can find at least ten reliable and established Wikimedians/Wikipedians ready to invest themselves to help you with the project. Solensean ᛁᛉᛁ 01:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Plus que 8 on est deux ;) Greudin
No :) You're alone..Solensean ᛁᛉᛁ 13:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've posted quotes in "Gascon", and I got their from my neighbors. Anyone are gotten from any book, and are quotes used in their family when they were young. How can I must write the source of these quotes?J'avais écris toutes les citations de la page en "Gascon", que j'avais eu grace à mes voisins. AUCUNE n'étaient sortie d'un quelconque livre; elles étaient utilisée dans leur famille, quand ils étaient jeunes, et que cette langue se parlait encore courrement dans la campagne. Comment indiquer la source de ces citations ? Lolo 32ᛁ 17:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Enregistre toi, ça a bcp plus de poids ! Greudin
« Wikicitations » est une bonne idée d'intitulé. L'emploi d'un nouveau titre permettrait de symboliser le changement par rapport à la précédente version. Teofilo 12:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  • I support a new fr.wikquote for old texts in the public ___domain only. I oppose the new rules that allow quotes from films and contemporary authors, because I believe this clashes the French copyright law. See Talk:Wikiquote FR. Je suis pour la réouverture d'un Wikiquote francophone seulement pour les textes anciens tombés dans le domaine public. Je suis opposé aux nouvelles règles qui incitent à citer des films et des auteurs contemporains, parce que je pense que cela n'est pas compatible avec les lois françaises sur les droits d'auteurs. Voir Talk:Wikiquote FR Teofilo 12:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A bit franco-centred, isn't it? Greudin
Though it is the same reason why the fr.wikiquote was closed in the first place, because of those French(France) copyright laws. 132.204.207.108 12:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As Greudin says, French is spoken internationally. Why not base the rules on Canadian, Belgian or Swiss law? All this is irrelevant as the servers are in the US so will be governed by US law. US law permits such quotation. --Oldak Quill 18:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

J'ai perdu sans préavis mes deux pages utilisateurs qui fourmillaient de citations tout à fait légales. Je pense, avant de créer quoique ce soit, qu'il faudrait réactiver cette partie de l'ancienne version quelques semaines et nous laisser recouvrer notre travail initial. Signé QuoiNonne aka 82.224.88.52 17:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of people willing to involve themselves in the project

I'd like to see a list of people willing to involve themselves in a new fr.wikiquote. Write your name below. Solensean ᛁᛉᛁ 21:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Requests for new languages/cg

Hiligaynon Wikipedia (13 support, 1 oppose)

Template:New-language-template

Support:

24.4.106.220 (N), 01:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Hiligaynon Test Wikipedia can now be found Here alongside the other Incubation Wikipedias.
The Hiligaynon Test Wikipedia can now be found Here alongside the other Incubation Wikipedias.

Support nl:Gebruiker:Boudewijn Idema 14:16, 1 september 2006

  1. Support -- Tobias Conradi 02:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose:

  1. Oppose with fire no native speakers requested this. - FrancisTyers 10:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Question: If native speakers show up and prove willingness to take responsibility for the implementation of this project will you withdraw your current opposition?--Harvzsf 05:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    If more than five dedicated native speakers show up, and request this Wiki with the intention of building an encyclopaedia then sure I'd withdraw my opposition. We don't need another Tajik Wikipedia, with no good articles and no native speakers to improve it. - FrancisTyers 16:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    For what it's worth, the Norman Wikipedia has only 2 native speakers (one at start) and is now nearing 1,000 articles. A successful test wikipedia is a much better sign than counting the number of native speakers. That said, I'm Weak Oppose against anything that does not have a test Wikipedia with at LEAST 25 articles. The Jade Knight 05:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I would like to further add that Tajik Wikipedia does have a dedicated native speaker now; in fact, the number of articles over there has slowly grown from 31 to 81. --Jose77 10:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose As was said: against anything that does not have a test Wikipedia with at LEAST 25 articles. I fully agree with this requirement. --Reo On|+|+ 00:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

Suggestion to help this proposal: since there are anonymous IPs who list themselves as native speakers who are willing to the growth of the Hiligaynon Wikipedia, it is highly recommended that these people register as to make their votes count. Or if they have an account on an existing Wikimedia project (i.e. Wikipedia), they can list that too! --Sky Harbor 14:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi everyone, the Hiligaynon Test Wikipedia can now be found Here alongside the other Incubation Wikipedias.
--Jose77 22:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Central Atlas Tamazight

Template:New-language-template

  1. Support tzm.wikipedia.org -- Tobias Conradi 02:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support Sroulik 16:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aramaic/Syriac Wiktionary

Template:New-language-template

  • I propose that the should be a new wiktionary intended for aramaic/syriac speakers. I propose that it be titled "syr.wiktionary.org". This would be a good resource for Chaldeans, Assyrians, Maronites, other Syriac speaking people. I do speak the language, know its spellings, and I wish to administate this webpage to prevent false definitions of words or mispelled words. I need to know how to establish this wiktionary and to change the fonts used within it. I am Makkow makkow and i would greatly appreciate the help. Thank you!
  • There are many languages considered Aramic and Syriac is only one Ethnologue gives you a nice overview about this. Wiktionary aims to have all words of all languages with a userinterface in one language. When you pick one, you face an uphill struggle. When you want to concentrate on adding words of one or more of these languages, you might include it in an existing Wiktionary project. GerardM 13:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support --Bentael
  • Support Dovi 07:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support --Reo On|+|+ 01:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Romanized Persian

Template:New-language-template !pes is western Farsi, prs is easstern Farsi. Using pes.wikipedia.org for Farsi (fa/fas) in general is wrong. Tobias Conradi 02:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Relevant infos: The language is Romanized Persian. This would be a great idea because there are millions of iranians outside of Iran who grew up in a foregin country with no possibilities of learning how to read Persian with Perso-Arabic letters. Romanized persian is great, because then all the iranians from all over the world could read and understand the persian language, not only the migrated Iranians, but also the Tajiks in Tajikistan who only know the Cyrllic and Latin alphabet (not the Perso-Arabic one). This is a huge issue among us Persian-speakers, not only locally, but globally aswell. This is a way of reuniting these countries and the versions of languages to one whole. This is a way for the people who use the latin alphabet to learn Persian easier.

In this stage, the Latinized Persian alphabet is introduced in schools as a phonemic standard alphabet for Persian transcription, as part of the regular curriculum. Such a simple and easy to use alphabet should be effortless and expeditious to learn for Persian speaking students. It will help them in learning the correct pronunciation of words they might have difficulty reading in the current alphabet. For non-Persian speaking students of the Persian language, it would lift the colossal barrier of having to learn the cumbersome Perso-Arabic script before starting to actually learn the language itself. The only books that would need to be transcribed in this phase are mainly language textbooks, and some of the major Persian literary works like the Shahnameh, Hafez's poetry, Balkhi's Masnavi, etc. A scientific, phonemically structured new script based on the Alphabetic Principle. Mastering reading and writing would become straightforward and simplified. Children and beginners would be able to read any Persian book after only a few months of practice. Educated people would be able to master reading and writing in a very short time. Therefore, a phonemic script like UniPers would help boost interest among Persian speakers in their own literature, culture, and history. On the other hand, the old Perso-Arabic writing system is an obsolete script that completely violates the Alphabetic Principle. Being based on the Latin alphabet would take advantage of its universality. It would make the Persian language much more accessible not only to our children and those who have obtained their secondary and higher education outside the Persian-speaking countries, but also to the non-Persian speaking people who have an interest in studying the Persian culture and history. Thus, Persian culture and language would become readily available to all without the hindrance of a complex, unfamiliar, and cumbersome writing system like Perso-Arabic. A new Latin-based alphabet for Persian can help the language and enrich it. The weak argument that the Persian literary heritage would be lost is completely false. One can print and read the great literary works of Hafez, Sa'di and Ferdowsi even more easily in a phonemic Latin-based alphabet than in the Perso-Arabic. The Perso-Arabic alphabet has turned many Iranians off from reading literary and historical books. This means that unlike what the proponents of the old alphabet say about UniPers severing our contacts with our culture, Perso-Arabic has done more to achieve this break.

Support

  1. Comment - If there is a 1:1 correspondence between romanised Farsi and normal Farsi, wouldn't it be a much better idea to implement some sort of transliteration program? See the Serbian wikipedia for an example. --IJzeren Jan 10:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support--Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 05:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support It was always a great problem for me to learn persian because I can not fluently read arabic script, and need sufficient amount of time to begin read it fluently. Read text in new language with slow speed is a bad way to learn it. Even arabic has now latin script and there is Quran and Haddith in the Internet in arabic language and latin alfabet. But I know, many Muslims want to learn not only Arabic, but also Persian and Turk languages, because there are so many classic texts of our culture written in Persian and Turk. So I support this proposal and shall help to develop the wiki, if my basic Persian would be useful there:-) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 22:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If the script causes you problem, why not learn Tajik then :) - FrancisTyers 13:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support --Maviulke12 00:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support Antares 00:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    1. Support PenJou 16:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support It would be incredibly usefull to people learning the language. Marshall19 03:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support ___domain should be latn.fas.wikipedia.org or fas-latn.wikipedia.org rationale for fas-latn at en:ISO 15924 -- Tobias Conradi 02:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  • Oppose. Persian is doing well with the Perso-Arabic script. A spelling reform would be useful to remove some anomalies, but that's another issue. --Rasulo
    • Comment. How do you know if Persian is doing well with the Perso-Arabic script? We see no motivation in your oppose. How could you possibly know anything about Persian when you are Finnish? That's the worst oppose I've ever heard. --Sorriz
      • Hundreds of years of history prove that Persian is doing well in the Perso-Arabic script. Also the level of literacy in Iran is not bad. As for expatriate Persians, well, wouldn't they have much more to win if they learned to read and write in real Persian instead of romanized Persian? I admit that I don't have anything in stake here personally, but I do know something about Persian. --Rasulo
        • You can't prove anything, therefore your argument is useless. --Sorriz
  • Strong Oppose This is the worse proposal I've ever seen. All the arguements for Romanized Persian are wrong. It won't enrich Persian culture, but would only do harm. Remember when Ataturk changed the alphabet? It only made it so that Turks could no longer read the old Ottoman era writings. It was bad for Turkish culture. few westerners learned Turkish before the Turkish language "reform", and few learn it now. It never helped Turkey. Arabic letters are a part of Perisan culture, and it became that way in history. Modern technology has made it just as easy to write in Arabic as it is in Latin. Romanized Persian isn't official, and Persian never uses the Roman alphabet, so this project should'nt exist. If we have this, though, can I get a Cyrillic English Wikipedia?--Fox Mccloud 13:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support - Answering to previous comment Persian is not doing well with the Perso-Arabic script outside Iran. People can't even read Persian. I'm not saying that this alphabet is going to replace the Perso-Arabic one. And this is not a reform, this is meant to be an optional script. You mentioned what Ataturk did.. well, this is not the same thing, we're only enriching the options here, we offer a shortcut to understand Persian, if the official, Perso-Arabic, won't work for people.

"Changing English alphabet to Cyrillic". It is certainly not the same thing. There are millions of Persians outside Iran and other Persian-speaking countries that understand much more Romanized than the Perso-Arabic script. We stand for an shortcut to read Persian, and we're not encouraging people to throw away their thoughts about learning the Perso-Arabic script. And when you mentioned Ataturk, I thought about the Turkish language he reformed. Persian is a indo-european language, Turkish is not. I believe that is also an argument against your oppose. --?--Sorriz

"There are millions of Persians outside Iran and other Persian-speaking countries that understand much more Romanized than the Perso-Arabic script."

There are tens of millions of Persians in Iran and Afghanistan that know Persian script. If there are some that live in the US, Europe or Canada where Persian is not officialy used anyway are comfortable in Latin script, they can wright in Latin script, but don't force the vast majority of Persians to change just because it is "easier" for a minority.

"We stand for an shortcut to read Persian, and we're not encouraging people to throw away their thoughts about learning the Perso-Arabic script."

Do you mean like a guide to help non Persians learn Persian easily and for Persian-English dictionaries and such? That's fine. But Persian shouldn't be changed in Iran just to help learners.

"And when you mentioned Ataturk, I thought about the Turkish language he reformed. Persian is a indo-european language, Turkish is not. I believe that is also an argument against your oppose"

????? How?

If you want to write Persian in Latin alphabet, and I want to wright English in Cyrillic alphabet, we should have to freedom to do so. Neither of us should try to change the nation's official script, nor do we deserve a Wikipedia.

btw, I once saw that a Pinyin wikipedia proposal was denied, and Pinyin is an official government transliteration. "Uni"pers is not, so why should we accept this and not Pinyin.--Fox Mccloud 17:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask why? Latin alphabet isn't official in Tajikstan. You would have more reason to have Turkmen and Uzbek wikipedias in Cyrillic alphabet because it is still widely used there.--Fox Mccloud 17:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
For Tajik speakers in Uzbekistan. - FrancisTyers 13:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose --Vanka5 01:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

*There already exist Tajik wiki in Cyrillic. In fact Tajik is essentially the same language. Why do we need the new latinized one?--Nxx 09:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Children's English Wikipedia (9 support, 19 oppose, 1 neutral)

Template:New-language-template

  • This will be a Wikipedia aimed at children, with a less text-heavy interface, more friendly language, explicit content censored and special reference desks for homework help.

Support

  • Support CrnaGora 16:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Milo 16:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- God of Chaos 02:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I beg to differ with the comment made by 89.176.54.194. Wikijunior is a series of books. Not a free-use site. I think that Simple English Wikipedia is made more for people who are learning English. A Childrens' Wikipedia would be more for teenagers, as many mainstream Wikipedia articles contain too many details, and details that they aren't meant too learn and thus many students will add information to an article (of which they have no idea what it means) may be asked to explain what this means. They will (generally) be incapable of doing so. On the other hand Simple English Wikipedia is way too simple to be accepted as a Upper Primary School/High School assignment. So this wiki should be somewhere in between if it is to work. However it should be re-named to Children's Wikipedia instead of Children's English Wikipedia

Booksworm 13:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Och mein gott, was sind sie blötig schei... you lot are so bloody annoying it's amazing. Wikijunior is still in raw phase. It does not alreadyx exist I mean come on! Booksworm 14:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Strong support I actually came to this page to request for a childrens' Wikipedia after a request at Wikia failed, but hey, there's already a request. I am currently at secondary school but I find that EnWp is sometimes a bit too complex. It can use all these scientific names (blah, blah, blah). As for Simple English, that's for people learning English. On this wiki, we can play around with css and javascript to provide a friendly interface. I think that there are too few Wikipedians who are in the age group mentioned above (see en:Category:Wikipedians by generation). When I get back to school on Monday, I'll set up a petition. I'll send in the link to the 'petition website'. --Leon2323 15:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC) (EnWp)[reply]
Ok, I've asked the survey. I asked 22 people questions about wikis. You can find the results in a Microsoft Access database at http://computerprojects.biz/Children.mdb.
  • This is a proprietary format. Would it be possible to make it available in more usable format?
  • Support. Adult language, the desire of LGBT people to insert gays/lesbians into every historical topic and the proliferation of artricles about pornstars and sexual positions often linked from most unexpected places (such as an article about "spoon") is the main argument in many schools against wikipedia. Mikkalai 17:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Americans should give up their bigotry, censorship and sexual deprivation attempts against their growing-ups and young adults. We are talking about teens, i.e. men who have at most 2½ years left before they're able to become parents themselves. They usually need more time to develop their sexuality healthy, not less, and certainly not another set-back of ten more years! You're attmenpt is futile anyways in a society that allows their teens and pre-teens hours of commercial tv consumption each day where 1 out 12 advertisemnts and 8 of 10 music videos is (soft) porn. Come on! If it was only about this kinda stupidity, I'd strongly oppose this motion. -- Purodha Blissenbach 12:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support --Gray Porpoise 18:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

--89.176.54.194 16:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There is a Simple English and a proposed Wikichildren. I think that's enough. Blue caterpillar 20:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose 200.217.166.126 13:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC) There's no point in creating one more Wikipedia in English.[reply]
  • Oppose 100% unneccessary. Open a kids homework questions answered support page in Wikipedia. --84.60.245.132
  • Oppose I didn't know children speak a different language than adults in english speaking countries... Traroth 21:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Reason: We may use Simple english Wikipedia for simple words. Even childrens don't know some English words like "nigard". A-yao 14:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - There is already Simple english Wikipedia exists --A1 09:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If you want simpler wording, we have Simple English. If you want topics children would be more into, then write one on Simple. If you don't want explicit content, don't go to an article that might have explicit content. And encyclopaedias are not for homework help. Why do we need a friendly, interface? If you need the information, it's there, it doesn't matter whether pictures are there are not. --Rory096 03:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose If simple is not enough than I don't know what is. --Filip (§) 00:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose Creating multiple wikis in the same language is purposeless. Some people want new wikies to become admins there etc. This is not good.--Nxx 09:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - If you want it simpler, either write simple introductory paragraphs, or add to the simple English wikipedia already in place. If you want homework support, go to, or create a homework orientated site. If you don't want so-called 'explicit content' (which is hardly existing anyways in wikipedia) see a psychiatrist, and get your hands off children. -- Purodha Blissenbach 01:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - How exactly will this be run. Is it a wiki for children by children? for children by adults? If one of the main complaints is "big words" then look them up in at dictionary.com or something. Simple english is already simple enough. Wikipedia is not homeworkhelper.com. Dinosaur puppy 23:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support It will provide good reading for children, as they get older they will probably have better ideas of how to use wikipedia because of what they have learned with the childrens wikipedia. (90.193.186.203 16:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Neutral

Un-Clear

Vai Wikipedia

Template:New-language-template

  • Hello! I`ve got one request for you. I collect words in various languages. Now I`m looking for word "sugar" in other languages, but I can`t find a Vai dictionary. I`ve got counterparts of word "sugar" in Japanese, Ahmaric, Thai, Georgian and Chinese, so can you write me what is "sugar" in Vai language? I`ve got this word in 317 languages and dialects of many regions and countries in the world so it is very important for me! Thank you very much! Szoltys <talk>

Simple Spanish Wikipedia

  • Spanish is worldwide a big language. Would it be an idea to start a "simple

Spanish" wiki: sencillo.wikipedia.org? I would be prepared to contribute to it. Greetings, Jcb 21:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  1. Support. Fine articles, it can be used for learning Spanish for people who do not know it well. Even I with very basic level of Spanish was able to understand them. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 23:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: strange. I was unable to make much of it all (and I think I have a good passive command of the language, being able to read newspapers) until ... it suddenly dawned on me that all this mess was translated Dutch. --Paul Pieniezny 20:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support I'm learning Spanish, I don't see why not. --Jrothwell 15:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Thats exactly what I would say! Dutchy-Dick 19:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support I'm learning Spanish too, yeah why not! --Flying DutchJan 21:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support Jcb 20:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC) - I don't know if I'm supposed to vote for my own proposal?[reply]
  5. Support A great idea! As interest to Spanish is growing worldwide, this wiki will be very popular. Slavik IVANOV 23:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support GangstaEB (W) 18:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support Goddammit all those who wrote simple spanish isn't a language. Well, is Simple English? Bloody hell; If we can have a simple English, then why can't we have a simple for each Wiki with + 100'000 articles? I have never seen thicker people in my entire life (George Bush is less thick) Booksworm 14:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support --85.141.204.10 20:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support -- I second Bookworm's argument above! Etz Haim
  2. Support -- A favor. Necesitamos tener, al igual que existe Wikipedia en Español, una Wikiversidad en el mismo idioma y con dominio propio.

Oppose

  1. Oppose. I'm against Simple English, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that I'm also against a dumbed-down español sencillo. —Nightstallion (?) 05:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. N En contra / Oppose--Lin linao 22:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC) : Ver comentarios / See comments.[reply]
  3. Strong oppose. There's not any standard simple Spanish. Wikipedia in Spanish desperatedly needs more contributors rather than split into another version for newcomers. --JRGL 22:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Oppose --Ecemaml 08:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. En contra. This has come up before, and, as before, I think that not only Simple English didn't fare too well, but also better choices exist for simplified content for junior readers. Taragui 12:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. EN CONTRA OPPOSE - Not an lamguaje Ja-ja. Felipealvarez 14:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Oppose Gothmog 18:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Oppose. Simple English has already shown that the idea of Simple XXX Wikipedias is not a good idea. There are other ways for junior readers. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 04:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Oppose Define simple spanish before, please. Platonides (native) 10:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Oppose we had already voted this... --Equi 14:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Oppose Airunp 12:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Oppose – rotemliss – Talk 12:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Oppose Oscar . 17:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Oppose -B1mbo 22:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Strong oppose. The samples are so full of grammar mistakes that should be taken as a joke. Cinabrium 04:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Oppose Lasneyx 11:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17.   Oppose Comae 21:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC) "Simple Spanish" doesn't exist. And if the test pages are a good example of the kind of "Spanish" will be used, Spanish learners are bound to forget (or worse) whatever they already know. If you want to learn Spanish, use Wikipedia en español --tons of things to do for learners, and 95% of articles there have better Spanish than those test pages. Or use the translation project at Wikiversity, which was thought for language learners.[reply]
  18. Oppose --Taichi - (あ！) 09:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC): ¿Again? This proposal was rejected few months ago. Please, don't persist with this bad joke.[reply]
  19. Oppose Gizmo II 02:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  20. FML 14:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Oppose Orgullomoore 06:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC) Comae is right, it doesn't do a learner any good to read bad examples, but that's not our problem. It should be our problem, however, that Simple Spanish does not exist. The examples provided are examples of incorrect Spanish. Wikipedia as a whole, and especially the Spanish Wikipedia, doesn't have the extra resources available to waste on inventing new languages--let's stick with what we've got.[reply]
  22. Oppose --Jpcristian (es:Usuario:Jpcristian) 06:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC) It's a made-up language, it shouldn't be included.[reply]
  23. Oppose Tomatejc (es:Usuario:Tomatejc) 06:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Oppose Aliman5040 18:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC) (es:Usuario:Aliman5040)[reply]
  25. Oppose Kordas 09:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  26. Oppose --Mauricio Maluff 16:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  27. Oppose As much as I want to support, there is no "Simple Spanish" language. --Gray Porpoise 15:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  28. Oppose --Kokoo 17:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  29. Oppose--Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 19:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  30. Oppose --Davidlud 18:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  31. Oppose --birdy geimfyglið (:> )=| 17:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC) there was already a vote about this.[reply]

Other

  1. [comment] I would oppose if I were logged in. By the looks of the two sample articles (full of grammatical errors), it's nothing more than an astute attempt by Spanish learners to get some free coaching. ;-) --89.176.54.194 17:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. [comment] Like the opinion before, if I were logged in I would vote against the idea of having a Simple Spanish Wikipedia. I have read the two test articles and as a native Spanish-speaker I must tell you they both are not well written. No sentence there is correct. And the faults are enormous. From my point of view, having a Wikipedia full of articles like these ones wouldn't help people to learn Spanish. ca:Usuari:Manu bcn
    1. My Spanish is good enough to know that this is not true. There is for certain not that amount of errors in the articles. Jcb 18:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      1. As a spanish native speaker (my english sucks, sorry), I'm with Manu bcn. The sample articles are incorrect. Gender errors and the like. Tostadora 22:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      2. Another Spanish native speaker here. Your Madrid article, for instance, has sentences like: En inviernos a veces es debajo 8º. Any elementary Spanish learner should know how to build it correctly: En invierno a veces está por debajo de 8º. Instead, it only misleads. --JRGL 22:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Pero es que el articulo es un joke-fake, ¿en invierno a veces menos de 8º? ¿y en verano la media es 24º?, improbable cuando en invierno hay heladas todos los días (<0º) y en verano rara vez baja de 35º, siendo normal que esté sobre 40º, ¿seguro que se refiere a Madrid? Felipealvarez 14:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. El Español Simple o Sencillo no es un lenguaje desarrollado con reglas específicas como el Inglés Simple, sino la forma en que el usuario Jcb piensa que resulta más sencillo. Ver Wikipedia:Wikipedia no es una fuente primaria. Lo siento, los ejemplos están llenos de errores y un hablante nativo podría tener problemas para entenderlos. (Simple Spanish or Sencillo is not a developed system as Simple English. Today is only the vision of User Jcb about how to make a simplified Spanish. See en:Wikipedia:No original research. I'm sorry, samples contain a lot of errors. A native speaker could have problems reading them.)
  1. You know spanish enoguh to be able to understand it. Other english-learning people can understand it. But they're not in good spanish. This may be a case of newbies understandig themselves with invalid grammar. Please define simple spanish before. The 3 articles have different errors and nonsense-phrases (we can imagine what is intended to say, but the phrase is absurd). Platonides 10:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Los artículos creador en el Incubator son una blasfemia al español, la redacción que se utilizó es pésima, ni siquiera un español hablaría así, se tienen rasgos muy tomados de la gramática del inglés u otro idioma germánico (¿influencias del idioma nativo de Jcb?). Propongo que esos tres artículos sean borrados porque así uno no habla en español, complejo, sencillo, para niños o ancianos. Así no es el español. --Taichi - (あ！) 09:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
¿El idioma nativo de Jcb? ¡El holandés! As sson as I saw "inviernos", I knew for sure. He seems to think "winters" in Dutch is a plural, but in fact it is an old genitive.--Paul Pieniezny 20:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Belarusian (Orthography Revision of 1959) (56 support / 37 oppose)

Template:New-language-template

Test wiki http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-WP/be/

500 articles in several days! It is possible that the unofficial belwiki soon will be smaller than new official one:-) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Mienski 14:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Member of the Commonwealth of East-Slavonic Test wikipedias http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Sodruzhestvo-be

There has already been simmilar request in here. I put it here now again, because the the situation in Belarusian Wikipedia seems abnormal to me.

1.Every single page in 1959rev.pravapis is in category written in 2005rev.pravapis

2.More than the first, some pages have mixed orthographies ex. Бразілія, Балівія, Чылі, 1580 (there are some more of them actually) that is absolutely inadmisible.

3.1959rev. and 2005rev. do differ much more that just of "soft signs", "soft letters" (hard l - soft l). 2005rev. which pretends to be called "classical Belarusian" has different from 1959rev. phrase building (synthax) - while 1959rev. synthax has very few differents from Russian (when I was writing it I remembered only transition of the preposition "к" (in Russian) to preposition "да" (in Belarusian), 2005rev. has (or must have (there are still many syntax mistakes in 2005rev.orthography - contributors just put 1959rev.text with soft signs - this belarusan language phenomenon is called "tarakamauka" ("tarashkevitsa" (unofficial name of 2005rev.) + "narkamauka" (unofficial name of 1959rev.) which is not codified and saying honestly is ungrammar)) so, 2005rev. has much more differents from Russian (see. Некаторыя ўвагі да беларускае літаратурнае мовы), some examples of them are (

  • 1.use of verb infinitive - "вада піць" vs. "вада для піцця" in 1959rev.;
  • 2.use of expression of belonging - "пункт у гледжаньні" in 2005rev. vs. "пункт гледжання" in 1959rev.;
  • 3. use of expression of purpose of thing - "хустачка да носу" vs. "хустачка для носу" in 1959rev. and some more rules signed in the work on knihi.com)

4. For me, as for abiturient (i gonna enter unversity next year), and for all the abiturients who will have Belarusian exam it is terrible to read such a mixture of orthographies in an encyclopedia. After reading words "Галандыя" (1959rev.) and "сьмерці" (2005rev) in one article and then in other articles I have more possibilities to make mistake in school work and, what is horrible, in exam! And I can tell you I've made some already when I instictively wrote "зьмяшчае" (instead of right variant "змяшчае" - w/o soft sign) in school dictation. As a man who contributes to wikipedia and wants belarusian language to become the leading slavic language I can't stop contributing but, as I said, after contributing to such a be.wiki I get mess in my head! Surelly, split will help with Belarussian knowledge systematization.

(I'm a contributor in 2005rev., but i will surelly help new wikipedia in 1959rev. for some time for it to develop)

Thanks for attention ppl! - Анто́сь Казьмярчу́к

PS. I haven't voted for previous propose (Present Belarusian) because facts in there were not true. I would like 2 BELARUSIAN WIKIS TO HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS. Surely if one of WIKIS will be filial to another no one will contribute.

PPS Few words about the size, yes be.wiki is small to split, but we in be.wiki prefer quality over quantity (look, there are no empty articles about a year - all of them have some information)

Important: There is already failed request for the SAME language revision here: Requests for new languages/Denied. So this poll should be cancelled, or at least votes from the previous poll should be transferred here. --Monk.

Таксама важна: калі ласка, прачытайце гэты артыкул, незалежна ад таго, якім правапісам карыстаецеся: Леанід Лыч. Рэформа беларускага правапісу 1933 года: ідэалагічны аспект

Another important: please read this article, regardless of orthography revision you use: Leanid Lyč. Reform of Belarusian orthography-1933: ideological aspect (in Belarusian)

As for me, I've read it about a year ago. Anyway, I don't think any argument in this science work that could change my mind about the bad influence of existance of 2 normas in 1 wiki or of the "aparteid" that is in the be-wiki. Mienski 23:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As the person somewhat familiar with sources of this text, I dare say that the text leaves important facts and aspects out. This ain't the place for this discussion though. Yury Tarasievich 05:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty sums it: Like was already suggested before, opposers of this request mostly oppose it out of their ideological POV. And that's the gist of the matter -- there is pretty lot of people interested in Belarusian language WP and uninterested in ideology. Live and let everybody live? Yury Tarasievich 05:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  1. Support --Mihas Skrypka 09:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Agree with Cazimearciuc. --Node ue 18:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support --Bunker 07:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support --A. Yurkevich 10:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support --Mienski 10:38, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support --218 12:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support --Dmitry Nikitin 08:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support --Yury Tarasievich 12:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support --Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 17:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support --User:boox 02:13, 14 Aug 2006 (UTC)
  12. Support --Steel archer 19:17, 16 Aug 2006 (UTC)
  13. Support --Red Winged Duck 08:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Support --MaximLitvin 13:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Support --Kojpiš Anton 22:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Support --Antares 00:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Support -- MarkFoldman 11:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Support -- User:Rusalka 14:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Bełamp 14:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    hey, man! You are definitely wrong. I'm here! And I will work in our Belarusian Wiki. Wanna questions? sviciazianka.livejournal.com Rusalka 21:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Please make some edits in our incubator wiki in order that he shut up)) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/RusalkaRusalka 08:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Support -- User:Vanoleo 14:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    No such user User:Vanoleo. --Bełamp 14:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Support --Alexander Amelchenko 14:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Support --Ottorahn 22:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Support -- Mikkalai 22:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  22. Support -- Siarhei Liantsevich 02:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Bełamp 14:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm here, man. -- Siarhei Liantsevich 01:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Support --82.209.232.60 10:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC) // Please, authorize!.. Mienski 10:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC) //This is an anonymous IP and he/she hasn't approved or explained his/her voice. --Bełamp 12:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  23. Support per Mikka and Yury Tarasievich. --Irpen 02:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Support --Khoikhoi 03:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  25. Support per Mikka and Yury Tarasievich. (Created account, last vote was by me.) -- Mno 06:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  26. Support --Jose77 09:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  27. Support - Wikipedia has already two Norway (bokmal and nynorsk) projects and two english (english and simple englis) projects. There is no matter to refuse those belorussians, who use grammar-1959, in much the same way there was no matter to refuse nynorsk-Norwegians --A1 10:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  28. Support --194.158.213.171 13:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC) forgot to authorize --Redline 13:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC) /i mean its my vote 13:09, 26 August 2006/ --Redline 13:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  29. Support -- Grafikm fr 22:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  30. Support per Tarasevich Alex Bakharev 11:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  31. Support for the reason that there are two Norwegian Wikipedias as pointed out above.--Fox Mccloud 14:02, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  32. Support I can't imagine any harm in having a new belarusian wiki. I believe any diversity should be welcome. --Mahadeo 22:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  33. Support --Morpheios Melas 06:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    #Support -- Okerb Traehf. My Solidarity To Belarus!
    vote from public proxy see Special:Contributions/202.159.212.165 Also vote from this IP [6] (Rafael, Long Live Belarus!)--Yakudza 19:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  34. Support -- User:Akeeri 16:13, 28 August 2006 (EEST)
    The only edit from this user. --Bełamp 00:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  35. Support I wanted to vote oppose initially, beacause I'm against different Wikipedias for different ortographies. But after reading discussion, I now realise that not only ortography is different, but grammar is also quite different as well. Also, it seems that language of current Belarusian wiki is not the modern official language of the country, wich seems not normal to me. So I support this request, but please note that my vote is not really strong since I don't know this languge, and I'm not really familiar with the situation. Kneiphof 13:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    You are wrong, grammar is almost the same. Differencies mostly are only in the way of writing some words' endings. (па сьлядох or па слядах) --Bełamp 14:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Then why do you, people opposing creation, call this version of language "russified to the extreme" and "communist monstrosity"? Almost the same, eh? :) Yury Tarasievich 14:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Orthography is "russified", and it is result of 1933 reform, isn't it, eh? --Bełamp 14:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Have you ever read this: [7]? It would be more right to say: "Alternative revision is polonised", rather then start talking of russification. Don't forget, we are NOT proposing Orthography revision of 1933, we propose rev1959 which is now offical in Belarus, these two are quite diff thingies. -- 82.209.208.151 15:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    This is not the time and place. The important thing is there are two language versions and two speaking communities (represented here) not touching other one's version with a long stick. I may be wrong, but that means two wikis should exist. Yury Tarasievich 16:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  36. Support -- -LchZHou-. long live Belarus!
    false vote, see zh:Special:Contributions/L-CHzhou - puppet. --Yakudza 00:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    puppet? -- 82.209.211.176 12:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    #Support -- ja:User:M1kosu Belarus & Japan are friends forever!
    vote from public proxy, pupped - see ja:Special:Contributions/M1kosu --Yakudza 19:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  37. Support -- Pe7er 15:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  38. Support -- iLjAVA It was easier for me to edit English Wikipedia, because Belarusian language I studied, heard and used is not the one from current be.wikipedia.org! While I highly respect people maintaining version in "Tarashkevitsa", the use of rules that stuck in the 30's of previous century is a definite step back or dead weight in development of Belarusian wikipedia. The number of people familiar with officially used language of Republic of Belarus (it is called in this request as "Belarusian (Orthography Revision of 1959)") is much much higher than number of people that use currently adopted version for be.wikipedia.org. It is very strange that current Belarusian wikipedia uses some other kind of language, not the one taught is schools. I think everybody hoped that co-existence of both versions within one wikipedia was possible but time shows that it is not true.
    So my vote is in support for creation of new wikipedia with commonly used Belarusian language. And my key points are:
    - Proposed Belarusian is studied by all Belarusians in schools
    - Proposed Belarusian is used by all official state institutions (parlament, courts, municipalities etc). The constitution of the Republic of Belarus is written in proposed language (all variants starting from creation of modern Republic of Belarus in 1991).
    - Number of people familiar with proposed version is much higher than people using language of be.wikipedia.org. Wikipedia with proposed language will be more understandable for them and they could make contributions easier.
    - Co-existance of two variants of Belarusian language in the limits of single wikipedia proved itself unviable (proponents, including administrators of be.wikipedia.org are too hostile to other variant articles, spelling or words). Check 5.14.6, that hostility is true
    - The variant of language mostly used in be.wikipedia.org doesn't have solid scientific base. Some words and spelling for proper nouns are "invented" by article writers or borrowed from Polish. At the same time proposed variant is much more academic and supported by multiple vocabularies and science works.
  39. Support --The age of love 17:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Bełamp 00:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    #Support --Rafael, Long Live Belarus!
    vote from public proxy see Special:Contributions/202.159.212.165 Also vote from this IP [8] ([hr:User:Okerb Traehf|Okerb Traehf]]. My Solidarity To Belarus!)--Yakudza 19:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    #Support -- nl:user:Ik dZ Long Live Belarus !
    vote from public proxy see [[9]] and nl:Speciaal:Contributions/Ik_dZ, pupped. --Yakudza 19:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    1. Support -- Ihec. God, bless Belarus! God, please, make guys opposing listen to reasons!
    vote from public proxy [10], pupped.--Yakudza 19:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  40. Support -- Astap 20:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Bełamp 00:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    What it's mean? My English not so good:) Astap 09:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Хто небудзь мне можа патлумачыць, чаму я "The only edit from this user" і што мне зрабіць, каб гэтага пазбавіцца? Astap 16:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Не хвалюйцеся, гэта, бадай што, ужо і не важна. Цікавей, каб вы актыўна працавалі ў новай вікіпедыі. :) Yury Tarasievich 17:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  41. Support -- pax217 1:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
  42. Support--Inconnu 23:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Bełamp 00:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Lie--Inconnu 12:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  43. Support--Lenev 00:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  44. Support--User:vanoleo.Sorry for haven't been registered duaring first vote ;)
  45. Support -- Сяржук Серабро 08:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  46. Support -- supp 00:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Bełamp 00:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  47. Support -- Mikrofed 03:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    #Support -- urizz . >>
    no such user --Yakudza 19:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  48. Support Pietras1988 14:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  49. Support PenJou 16:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  50. Support --Bertodsera 13:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  51. Support -- nl:Gebruiker:Boudewijn Idema 14:20 , 1 september 2006
  52. Support --Reo On|+|+ 23:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC) I hope, both of them will be vital[reply]
  53. Support -- Tobias Conradi 01:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  54. Support --Kaganer 22:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  55. Support -- Momisan 22:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC) From a Montenegrin[reply]
  56. Support --Vladyslav Savelo 23:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC) Good luck guys! Успіхів![reply]

Oppose

Summary
  1. Oppose --Taichi
  2. Oppose --Partei
  3. Oppose --FrancisTyers // could you explain your motivation in Comments, please? Yury Tarasievich 11:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    See below. - FrancisTyers 10:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC) // See my reply to it (I promise this is my last addressing you on the issue) Yury Tarasievich 13:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Oppose --Voevoda // could you explain your motivation in Comments, please? Yury Tarasievich 11:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose --Yakudza
  6. Oppose --NMToken
  7. Oppose --Monk
  8.   Супраць (Oppose) --Bełamp
    Oppose --Improv
  9. Oppose --W.V.-S..
    User does not exist at meta. This invalid vote from IP that has no other edits. --Irpen 03:02, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    User DOES exist: W.V.-S.. And these are his contributions. --Bełamp 01:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Whether he exists there or not, the vote is cast by an invalid IP as shown above. --Irpen 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I am real oppose and I real man. — W.V.-S.
  10. Oppose --Gdarin // could you explain your motivation in Comments, please? Yury Tarasievich 11:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Oppose --Czalex 16:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC) The desicion on this topic has already been made and is NO[reply]
    Oppose --Morpheios Melas 05:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Move my vote to Support --Morpheios Melas 06:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Oppose --Slaver 10:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position[reply]
    The only edit from the user. --Irpen 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // He is Slaver – its contribution. --MaximLitvin 08:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Oppose --Vovansystems 10:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position[reply]
    The only edit from the user. --Irpen 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // He is Vovansystems – its contribution. --MaximLitvin 08:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose --81.25.45.199 //This is an anonymous IP and he/she hasn't approved or explained his/her voice. Mienski 13:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose --Awsiannikaw Mikalaj No such user. Mikkalai 22:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Oppose --Aliaks 16:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position. -- 82.209.208.182 16:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The only one edit by the user prior to the date. Obviously, meatpuppetry at LJ is ongoing. --Irpen 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Only one? See: http://be.wikipedia.org/wiki/Спэцыяльныя:Contributions/Aliaks --Aliaks 06:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Oppose -- Aldente 20:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC) There is only *one* Belarusian language.[reply]
    No edits from the user prior to the voting. --Irpen 19:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Oppose --Bacian 23:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Irpen 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // He is Bacian – its contribution. --MaximLitvin 08:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17.   Супраць (Oppose) -- Ergil 20:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Irpen 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Oppose --Oldmah 23:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Irpen 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Oppose --Балахонаў 21:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Irpen 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // He is Балахонаў – its contribution. --MaximLitvin 08:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Oppose --Bielarusaczka 22:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Irpen 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // He is Bielarusacka – the user be: from 18.12.2005. --MaximLitvin 08:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // User Bielarusacka has no contribs to be.wiki -- 82.209.211.98 13:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  21.   Супраць (Oppose) --- kacjam
  22. Oppose --pryvid
    The only edit from the user. --Irpen 05:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // He is Pryvid – the user be: from 29.05.2006/ --MaximLitvin 08:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // User Pryvid has no contribs to be.wiki -- 82.209.211.98 13:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  23. Oppose Please, don't splinter the sole unified Belarusian wiki. It's just orthography, not separate language. --Zlobny 06:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Oppose --Ratking 08:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position Mienski 06:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Irpen 16:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  25. Oppose Da blin, dzielać vam sztol necza? Pamahli b bratanam bielarusam. Vot ja szcza kak vaźmu da papraszu vikipedziu vot ecim svaim sobstvienym pravapisam - Amirkoj! Razgildziai. --Amir E. Aharoni 11:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Now seriously - if you've got any serious work to show, just put it in the existing Belarusian wiki in whatever pravapis you think is good. --Amir E. Aharoni 11:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Seriously then, would you mind not ordering people around? The request is here exactly because "putting in whatever pravapis" is not possible and isn't going to be. Yury Tarasievich 11:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  26.   Супраць (Oppose) --Kauka 08:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // please, explain your position[reply]
    The only edit from this user. --Irpen 16:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  27.   Супраць (Oppose) --Tutejszy // please, explain your position
    The only edit from this user. --Irpen 16:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  28. Oppose-- Altavetra treba usiu moc paklasc' na budaunictva adnoj Wikipedyi, a jakuju movu hto budze uzyvac' - geta sprava pryvatnaja, a rabic' druguju wikipedyju - geta razmjazhouvac' movu i ljudzej jasche bol'sh. Zaraz chas abjadnoucca hacja b u move.
    user does not exist. The vote was cast by this anon IP that made no other edits. --Irpen 19:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  29. Oppose-- praunik21:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC) // It doesn't make any sense to support the communist russified version of the Belarusian language. Those guys lie explicitly when put it in a way there are 8 million speakers of the "new purified Belarusian" (after 1959). Nowadays practically 90% of the real Belarusian speakers follow the rules of the "taraszkevica" (the language free of the Communist russified amendments) either in pronounciation, lexic or grammar. Long live Belarus and our mother tongue! Do not leave them a chance to rift Belarusian wikipedia. Say NO to the KGB & BRSM provocations!!![reply]
    User does not exist. The vote was cast by this anon ip and it is its only edit. --Irpen 19:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    And this is direct lie. No members of BRSM in current BEwiki-2 team. And KGB does not exist for 15 years, so all the accusations are not true. In opposite, new Belwiki, though small in size, has articles about Pahonia (coat of arms of belarusian opposition), and the white-red-white flag. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    You are wrong. KGB DOES exist in Belarus. --Bełamp 09:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you the fan of the "world conspiracy"?:-) Вы прыхільнік тэорыі сусветнай змовы?:) Mienski 09:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    This is very silly motivation. I do not want to WP:BEAN but if any of those organisations wanted to do anything, they'd be much more direct and successful in their approach. Just think your own thoughts, not recycled newspaper slogans. Yury Tarasievich 05:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    All I am saying that the above edit signed as "user:Praunik" in in fact made by an anon IP which pasted a signature and there are no contributions in Meta under the Praunik name. --Irpen 02:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, this is not to you, but to this Praunik. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  30. Oppose per Yakutza --KPbIC 22:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  31. Oppose --Phoebus // it is a nonsense to split one language into two independent languages according to the rules only; we have a great trouble with spreading of it at all, so such strifes will only aggravate the situation: why shouldn't we be as a one and support the existent project? Mistery.
    Language won't be "split" over one website, as you perfectly understand.
    And those really wanting "to be one" do not introduce artificial distinctions for #themselves, like all this alternative orthography business. Those wanting to be one won't go foul mouthing their supposed compatriots.
    If you personally are happy to work in the environment conditioned for the "alternative" -- fine, you can spend your time at be.wiki. Just do not get too righteous over this and do not deny other people their right of choice. Yury Tarasievich 13:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  32. Oppose --nomad_by 01:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The only edit of this user. Mienski 22:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  33. Oppose --Alex Bortnik It is pity to see how few members use dubious arguments and misguide others. From my personal experience (I was born in Russia and learned Belarusian by reading books and listening to radio) this is not a problem to understand the articles in existing Belarusian Wikipedia. And I can good imagine coexistence of both syntaxis in one already existing version.

    But even more pity is to see how much “Potemkin villages” in “Support” voting were generated by new “users”, who surprisingly have all different native languages in (“their profiles”) but not Belarusian.

    It's not the Potemkin villages, it's the people we spoke with and explained them our position. The Potemkin villages are opposes of "meat puppets" from LJ. Mienski 23:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  34. Oppose --Frizz 14:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  35. Strong oppose. It only differs from official belarusian by some orphography issues. Moldovan Wikipedia was closed but it's write system is much more different from latin version. Edward Chernenko
  36. Oppose. Find a way to accommodate different linguistic preferences at be:. If en: can handle British, American, Australian, and Canadian English in one encyclopedia, be: can certainly handle these minor differences. Angr 11:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  37. Oppose --Trinya I agree there is some difference, e.g. in spelling, between 2 variants of our language, but it is still one language, Belarusian, and I would like to see it prosper and develop, not split, and people having this language in their minds united. I am for free usage of both variants of language but within one wiki. Maybe it is possible, that time will show, what variant is closer to the hearts of native speakers.
Comments
  1. This vote recalled by voter ---Yury Tarasievich 12:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    ...(and see comments, too) ---Yury Tarasievich 13:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    So what's the matter about not opening new Academic-language Belarusian Wikipedia? User:Mienski 14:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, after the experiences of last 2 months, I feel I could, possibly, re-consider changing my vote to support. I'd like to see the intentions of the proposers stated more clearly, however.
    - I understand the supposed name would be ISO639, bel.wikipedia.org -- and that's the only acceptable name in the situation.
    - What about that "100% normative orthography, syntax and everything"? While I consider the alternative orthography quite a un-needed and even harmful exercise, and while the wantonly introduction of the Polish words (like "выспа" for geogr. "island") is simply an abomination, I'd like to see some leeway on the syntax and morphology here, as some of the 1933-1959 changes in those had been objectively, un-Belarusian.
    So, what do you think? ---Yury Tarasievich 22:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Іншымі словамі, калі кіраўніцтва новай ВП абяцае даваць пэўную ступень свабоды на сінтаксіс-марфалогію (невялікія вольнасці ў кіраваннях, у канчатках склонаў) і лексіку (сістэмна беларускія дадаткі да існуючай), то можна за яе стварэнне галасаваць. Таму што ўжо відаць, што з ВП пад назвай be.wikipedia.org толку не будзе, бо створана, каб рухаць "справу клясычнага правапісу". ---Yury Tarasievich 19:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I'm transferring my vote to support (although somewhat against my best judgement...) ---Yury Tarasievich 12:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support Changed my vote after looking into what's going on and listening to arguments. AFAIK each wiki is a self-governed entity, and if it is started by a certain clique, there is no way to overcome it without invoking Jimbo Wales. BTW I am curious, were there any formal steps to remedy this situation? Mikkalai 22:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Oppose I disagree that this suffering Belarusian language must be split in two. I see no problems in co-existing synonyms from two sources. English has both "trunk" and "proboscis" and other 5-cent and 20-dollar synonyms coming from German and Romance origins respectively. The only requirement would be consistency of orthography (and optionally vocabulary) in a single article, something like British/American English in en:wikipedia. Otherwise it is pointless dispersion of efforts of so scarse Belarusophone contributors. Mikkalai 17:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
About the "formal steps" (sorry, haven't seen it before): there were, and not at once, such steps, but they were just ignored (you can see logs of the proposals in the discussion of the Main_Page, but you'll never see here the proposals or reaction "from the other side" (the one man that reacted was E.Zelenko, admin of be.wiki - thanks to him). Mienski 08:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. It's terrible, but this condition (about consistence of orthography) isn't met in Be-Wikipedia. User:Mienski 14:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    So, do you think that the differences of official Belarusian language and "neoclassical" are just a few words? No, it's a spelling of lots of words (about 30-40% of lexics), it's also differences in syntax, morphology, normalization of foreign words and so on, a lot more and more. The problem is not about few words, it's about inconsistency of Be-Wiki as an ENCYCLOPEDIA.
  2. Oppose No different ortographical Wikipedias please. --Taichi - (あ！) 05:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not just orthography, but also morphology, lexics and a lot more differences. User:Mienski 14:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose The difference between orthographies can probably be handled by computer, e.g. extend the software to allow display (first) then contributions (second) in both orthographies. - FrancisTyers 11:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Err, this is one of be.wiki admin EugeneZelenko "arguments". So far, no such a script has been created (for about a year already). And, saying fairly, it cannot be done because of different transliteration of foreign words. No program imo can convert "філязофія" to "філасофія" using NO databases of words. But this example is not the only one, examples include practicaly any adoptedd words. Surely, no one can create such a database. And more than that, the database that keeps 2 variants of ANY SINGLE NAME of well-known people from EU, US, Africa etc. cannot be ever made.
    • Good news: Such a database is being made. Of course, it needs contributors of scripts for those cases that can be handled along some general rules, and educated typists entering the rest. For the time being, if you have not more than a few thousand articles/names in the Беларуси Wikipedia, typing their Lemmata twice manually would not be too hard or time consuming a job. Refer to Category:Ultimate Wiktionary for history, and WiktionaryZ for current reality, @ pre alpha state. If you have data bases of words of both orthograpies available, imho importing them would be a not too complicated task. If you have not, you might ask for a script that can convert semi-automatically, suggesting spellings, and a human says yes/no/which one, respectively, with a mouse click, allowing speedy conversions. -- Purodha Blissenbach 13:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    It's impossible to write software to translate neoclassic Belarusian variant into official: they are too different.
  4. Голос снят проголосовавшим --Dmitry Nikitin 08:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Дело в том, что именно тот вариант орфографии беларусского языка, который на данный момент используется в be.wikipedia.org, и является таким вот "дореволюционным" вариантом. Эта орфография поддердживалась в основном только эмигрантскими кругами, которые оказались за пределами Беларуси в связи с гонениями советской власти. Представьте себе ситуацию, когда бы русские эмигранты не приняли реформу русского языка начала 20го века ("т.к. она была проведена после революции при большевиках") и затем, после развала СССР, начали бы активно продвигать написание "ятей" и других архаичных значков. К сожалению, так и произошло у нас, в Беларуси. Вы спросите, почему тут написано 1957rev и 2005rev? Т.к. основы первого, официального, современного написания были приняты и внедрялись ещё с 1957 г., т.о. имея богатый культурный языковой материал. Та же орфография, которую некоторые пробуют представить как "класическую", была кодифицирована (причём ужасным образом - много ляпов, недоработок, отдалённость от живой беларуской традиции перенимания иностранных слов, употребление диалектизмов, полонизмов и т.д.; без широкого общественного обсуждения, опираясь на речь людей, которые даже не живут в Беларуси (старые эмиграционные издания, радио "Свабода" (которое вещает с территории Чехии и сотрудниками которого являются те же эмигрантские круги) только в 2005г.
    Вы меня убедили. Отзываю свой голос и иду ставить его выше - ЗА. Кстати, простите, что не подписался. И ещё, я сейчас сотру свой голос, но мне ведь могут сказать, что я вандалил, стирая чужие голоса так что поправьте там как нужно, если что --Dmitry Nikitin 08:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Снова страшилки рассказывают... В be.wikipedia.org используются и нормативный и классический вариант. Единственная пока не разрешимая техническая проблема - категории. --EugeneZelenko 14:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Вторая единственная неразрешимая проблема - оболочка на старом варианте (главная страница и т.д.). Третья единственная неразрешимая проблема - совершенная неразбериха с орфографией. Четвёртая единственная неразрешимая проблема - излишняя прямая и косвенная (дом. страницы участников, статьи, дискуссии) политизированность нынешней версии, что для многих потенциально новых участников является достаточной преградой для регистрации и редактирования статей, равно как и существующая оболочка в ее ненормативном варианте. Пятая единственная неразрешимая проблема - просто отсутствие желания перепрыгивать с одной орфографии на другую, спотыкаться о слова и буквы, написанные в ином варианте, считаться с нововведениями: написал в два раза больше, взвесил, измерил и только тогда осмелился изменить правописание. Сторонники одного из вариантов написания практически никогда не вносят каких-либо значительных изменений в статьи, написанные в ином правописании. Наличие чёткого единого стандарта - неотъемлемая часть любой энциклопедии. Нынешний "однобокий плюрализм" уже не раз приводил к спорам и перепалкам и, как мне кажется, вряд ли они когда-нибудь прекратятся. Так что пора посадить ещё одно "деревце" и вселить жизнь в новый проект... И при всём при этом добавлю, что многие из небольшой горсточки нынешних участников нынешней версии пишут замечательные статьи, а некоторые :) очень добросовестно выполняют свои административные обязательства... --Alexander Gouk 23:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Что за дореволюционная грамматика? Товарищ сам понимает, что он написал? Суржик и трасянку поддерживаю, и донскую балачку, если только она не совпадает с суржиком. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Имеется ввиду русская орфография до 1918 года. Согласен, лучше было бы написать "до реформы русской орфографии". Правда там были некоторые грамматические изменения. Но не суть. Мы сейчас про белорусский.--83.237.20.182 06:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose --81.25.45.199 15:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you explain or, maybe, authorize? Boox 23:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Oppose -- Voevoda 14:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you explain your position of denying the Wikipedia for the state language of Belarus, country with 10 mln people?
  7. Oppose. Per Mikkalai. --Yakudza 11:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Please, understand: problem could be handled ONLY by separation. This simple operation will do no harm for Belarusian Wikis: both would be written with its codified grammar, lexics, syntax and so on! Boox 23:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I could be handled not only by separation, but by developing special software. Yes, it will be difficult, but it will not split Be.Wikipedia. -- Bełamp 14:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Проблему, как мне кажется, надо решать выработкой единого стандарта для языка, а не разделением на несколько. --Yakudza 07:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    По сути вы правы, но ребята не могут выработать его в википедии, поскольку у каждой группы за плечами свой стандарт, выработанный не здесь, в этом-то все и дело, по-моему --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    В том и проблема, что 1. варианты сильно отличаются; 2. а) "тарашкевичи" (неоклассический вариант) никогда не сделают шаг в сторону официального варианта (в основном, по идеологическим причинам); б) официальный вариант беларусского языка имеет право на создание пространства для свободной работы над статьями. Более подробно на этот счёт посмотрите выше, в ответе Alexandra Gouka. Там определено множество неразрешимых противоречий, которые делают невозможным работу как на "неоклассической" норме, так и на официальной и нормативной.
  8. Oppose. I don't see any point in making two wikipedias for the same language - these two will be definitely worse than one common. Why not contributing to existing one? --Monk 12:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Possibly, because people want just to write in Belarusian without additional ideology attached, as is the case with the 2005rev. People don't like to be hated on basis of their choice, too. ---~
    There is no any ideology with 2005rev. More, no one prevents you to use 1957rev, just don't begin "holy wars". -- Bełamp 14:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Pah. The 2005rev is all about ideology, from head to toes. If group of people discards normative rules of writing in favour of some garage-invented set and forces other people to regard this on equal footing with normative -- what it's about if not about ideology?
    "No one prevents", my foot. There are screwy rules in belwiki forcing me to count chars before each commit -- I perceive this to be an obstruction. You want to play that particular ball -- suit yourself, just don't overstretch yourself. ---Yury Tarasievich 20:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9.   Супраць (Oppose) Чым займацца пустымі спрэчкамі й расколваць Вікіпэдыю, лепш бы прыхільнікі афіцыйнага правапісу (дарэчы, а чаму гэта толькі яны патрабуюць стварэньня асобнае Вікіпэдыі?) заняліся напісаньнем падтрымкі ўжытку абодвух правапісаў у межах адное Вікіпэдыі. Лічыце, гэта немагчыма? Паглядзіце на pravapis.tut.by. Элемэнтарную падтрымку канвертаваньня клясычнага правапісу ў афіцыйны зрабіць можна (я маю на ўвазе мяккія знакі), правапіс асобных словаў можна захоўваць у спэцыяльнай вікі-базе дадзеных, каб кожны вікіпэдыст мог дадаваць у яе словы. Нават на найпрасцейшым узроўні гэта можна зрабіць зараз - выкарыстоўваючы шаблёны (пры ўмове аўтаматычнага даданьня мяккіх знакаў і іншых адрозьненьняў такога пляну. -- Bełamp 14:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Нельга не пагадзіцца. Літаральна мае думкі. --MaximLitvin 15:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Схамяніцеся. І падумайце, хто захоча супрацоўнічаць з людзьмі у якіх такія думкі.
    Па-першае, не "прыхільнікі", а проста вучылі мову ў школе. Дадатковы фактар падзелу і выніковы раскол зрабілі не "нарматыўнікі".
    Што гэта за роздум: "...чаму гэта толькі яны патрабуюць стварэньня асобнае Вікіпэдыі"? А што, "яны" не людзі? Ці вінаваты перад вамі самім фактам існавання? Сваю вікіпедыю маюць і жук і жаба, дык чаму не быць такой відавочнай?
    Што гэта за жлобства: "лепш бы прыхільнікі афіцыйнага правапісу... заняліся напісаньнем падтрымкі..." Ну-ну. Мо і вам падкінуць параду, чым вам бы лепш заняцца? Скажам, пачытаць даклад камісіі Некрашэвіча? І наогул -- хто прыдумаў дадатковыя праблемы -- той і піша модулі.
    Ну і той допіс, што ніжэй, таксама дарэчны, з п. гл. чалавечых адносінаў.
    Урэшце рэшт, што за бяда -- ну, будуць дзве. Ну, будуць перакладаць адна з адной -- каму горш? А працаваць прасцей абодвум бакам. Бо зараз мне прасцей плюнуць на пісанне беларускіх артыкулаў, чым увесь час спрачацца з кожнай пустой нагоды (вось як днямі пра "дайджэст" нн) з заідэалагізаванымі людзьмі. ---Yury Tarasievich 21:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Полностью согласен, я с самого начала так в ЖЖ и говорил - ничего плохого для беларуской культуры не будет. Конечно, обе вики будут обмениваться материалами и людьми, а раз свободы будет больше, то и людей, и статей будет больше. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 21:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Ужо схамянуўся. Мае думкі датычацца толькі таго... а-а-а, што аб гэтым пісаць - марная справа, бо ўсё адно зразумееце адпаведна сваім уяўленням... Увогуле сам прыхільнік выкарыстання афіцыйнага
  1. Дык як вас наогул зразумець, калі па закранутай тэме не кажаце, а нешта зусім у іншы бок? І нашто за мяне дадумваць? --Ю.Т.
  1. правапісу, але я супраць сепаратызму, бо гэта блага скончыцца. Па-першая, як толькі з'явіцца асобная Вікі
  1. Сепаратызму? Каго ад каго? Хто пачаў? --Ю.Т.
  1. на афіцыйным правапісе адразу ўздымецца хваля па зачыненні Вікі на "неправільным" правапісе - у выніку не будзе ні воднай беларускай Вікі, а будзе адзін "афіцыйны" недагрызак. Па-другое, зноў уздымецца
  1. Глабальныя высновы, але сцверджанне не роўнае даказу. А мне дык думаецца, што цікавасць да "альтэрнатыўнай" мовы значна меншая, чым вам здаецца. --Ю.Т.
  1. хваля стварэння розных Вікі-трасянак/суржыкаў, бо дзе две беларускіх Вікі, то там і тры, чатыры, пяць
  1. Тры, чатыры і пяць? Ну, дапусцім на хвілінку, што яны будуць. А хто тут палітычны камісар, казаць ім не быць? Ну, будуць -- хлеб адыймуць ці што? Мне дык няма ніякай цікавасці (і часу) ані да трасянкаў, ані да альтэрнатыўных правапісаў, ані ў тым, каб іх знішчаць (і рабіць з іх ахвяраў). А вось пісаць па-беларуску без лішніх абструкцый -- хочацца, але існуючы парадак гэтага не дазваляе. Думаю, і ў бальшыні ахвотных такая самая пазіцыя. --Ю.Т.
  1. "беларускіх" Вікі, ці не так кажу. Да і дзе ж былі мы - "нарматыўнікі", калі гэтыя "нацыяналісты" стваралі "сабе" "сваю" Вікі на "сваім" правапісе? Га? Была б смешна, калі б не была так сумна бачыць гэтыя свары і
  1. Якая розніца, хто дзе быў? Я да ~чвэрці 2005 дык і не звяртаў дужа ўвагі на ВП --па маёй спецыяльнасці там слабыя матэрыялы. Большая актыўнасць, галасістасць, нават агрэсіўнасць меншасцяў, якія б ні былі -- наогул звычайная рэч. А вось што важней было тым альтэрнатыўнікам -- дабро агульнай справы ці уласная ідэалогія? Цяжка было зрабіць, каб усім беларусамоўным даць магчымасць?
    Урэшце, пытанні пра палітыку белвікі пачаліся праз пару тыдняў пасля адкрыця. Калі "тройка" не сцерла, то хто мае вочы, той пабачыць. --Ю.Т.
  1. хворыя "прынцыпы"... --MaximLitvin 07:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Пра хворыя прынцыпы не зразумеў. А свары -- узгадайма, ці былі яны да ~1989-1990, калі і пачалася гэта кампанія? --Ю.Т.
  1. А і не трэба, разбірацца і разумець - хто пачаў, ад каго і як, бо дзіцячы сад нейкі. Увогуле, як Вы бачыце магчымыя будучыя стасункі паміж двумя беларускімі Вікіпедыямі (ці магчыма на Ваш погляд зрабіць сувязь паміж імі)? Гледзячы па Вашых настроях, баюся яны будуць варожымі. --MaximLitvin 09:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Мае настроі тут абсалютна ні да чаго, бо я не цікаўлюся пытаннем гэтых стасункаў. Прапанаваны варыянт, па-першае, дае мне магчымасць без лішніх канфліктаў працаваць у ВП па-беларуску, без ідэалагічнай ношы, па-другое, не пагражае агульнай справе, наколькі я яе разумею. Захачу -- вазьму тэкст з якой захачу ВП, абы я ведаў мову. І ўсе стасункі, вельмі проста. :) --Ю.Т.


  1. Я НЕ БАЧУ сэнсу ў стварэнні нейкага інтэрфэйсу ў афіцыйным правапісе ў вікіпедыі дзе большасць артыкулаў зроблена ў альтэрнатыўным правапісе, усе адміністратары - прыхільнікі альтэрнатыўнага правапіса, большасць удзельнікаў - людзі, што пішуць у альтэрнатыўным правапісе. Атрымаецца, што я буду падтрымліваць ці выцягваць з гаўна вікіпедыю, дзе большасць усіх не падзяляе адную з маіх найбольш фундаментальных пазіцый, дзе большасць удзельнікаў - упартыя як аслы, калі справа тычыцца правапіса, дзе за кожны накід павінна весціся барацьба за правапіс. Нашто? Хто вы такія? Я ведаю, што карыстаюся мовай, што ёсць афіцыйнай у дзяржаве, дзе ваша мова ёсць прызнанай ды афіцыйнай, га? Чаму я, прыхільнік стандарту, павінны ў вікіпедыі, зарэгістраванай на маю ж мову, цярпець прысутнасць нейкіх барацьбітаў, што чорт ведае за што змагаюцца. Каб ты, ды і іншыя адмоўнікі ведалі, пачаў я менавіта як ужывач "неа"-рэвізіі, аднак усё болей паглыбляючыся у рэсурсы у гэтым правпісе, я пабачыў, што ўяўляюць іншыя неа-ужыўцы. Вы ўсе ходзіце з сваім правпісам як з сцягам, ганарыцеся менавіта сваёй занятай пазіцыяй. Мне ж проста патрэбны правапіс, у якім я буду пісаць, які б не паказваў знарок маю пазіцыю, пісаць на роднай мове. Разам з тым я не магу памірыцца з пашырэннем гэтага правапіса, бо ён шкодзіць і маёй мове, адкідвае здабыткі ейныя на паўст. таму. І хопіць бараніцца ідэяй стварэння праграмаў канвертацыі - пакуль мне нехта не пакажа праграму якая паканвертуе мне любое існае прозвішча з аднаго правапіса ў іншы, гэты аргумент я не залічу. Гэта калі б пісалі таракамаўкай, была б такая магчымасць. І прытым надзвычай доўга васпаны "распрацоўваюць" гэты софт, звычайна марудзячы і нічога не робячы - ведама мне вашая пазіцыя "калі вам гэта патрэбна, дык рабіце". I wanna tell everybody this one is the most radical in wikipedia. His the only one to me in my mind from time to time starting orthography-wars in wikipedia and agitatin for 2005rev. to users, that use official standart. Sucha people are one of the reasons why i personally don't want to write to current be.wiki. This reason is not based on personal view to people like him (though it exists ofc), but they opress users that use 1959rev.. Once this man started a propaganda of 2005rev. to 1959rev.. Then i remember episod, when ADMINISTRATOR WAS TRYIN TO CANTRACT WITH 1959-USER FOR THIS USER TO CREATE templates ONLY IN 2005-REV. This user was blocked then for the reason that he creates MANY STUBS. Then, once when according to the rules of be-wiki this 1959-user added much context to 2 or 3 articles and got the right to change the orthography (what he ofc did) the administrator said THAT HE SHOULD HAVE CREATED A DISCUSSION WHERE OTHER USERS WILL ALLOW HIM TO CHANGE ORTH.-REVISION. From what time sucha situation is called equality in rights?? -- 82.209.208.161 16:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose - This can do nothing but harm the efforts to produce an encyclopedia for people who speak the language. It would be better to come up with traditions/style guides in the language to address this situation rather than split the language. If Traditional and Reformed Chinese can exist in the same wikipedia, which I believe is likely much more difficult than what is being attempted here, then I'm sure something can be worked out to prevent this division of community. If this is accepted, at best one of the wikis will become largely abandoned and the situation will be much as it is now. At worst, you'll end up with two separate communities, each with smaller, less impressive encyclopedias. Please don't go down that route. --Improv 16:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • On further conversation via IM, I realise there's a significant issue here. I don't know if this is the right way to deal with it, but .. I'm less inclined to say no at this point. --Improv 07:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You make a lots of assumptions, eh? "This can do nothing but...", ""-- lots of ppl beg to differ, in fact they expect quite opposite things to come. And who made the comparative analysis of this here situation and the Chinese deal? Finally, you ask for "please don't go" but wham it with a opposing vote. Oh joy. ---80.94.165.5
  1. Oppose Narkamaŭka - it's a communistic distortion of the Belarus language. Наркамаўка - палітычны мёртвы вырадак. --Aliaks 16:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ha, I really should help Aliaks with his English translation of his Belarusian phrase. He says, literally: "Narkamauka is a political dead monstrosity". That's about the language taught in school, about the language ~2.5 mln. of his compatriots speak in home (per 1999 census).
Aliaks, the attitude like that is precisely the reason to support the forming of separate wikipedia in Narkamauka, not oppose. Then those wanting the Narkamauka will have the wikipedia to work, and you'll have no more to contact with it. Oh, and Narkamauka is a derogatory term, thank you. Yury Tarasievich 16:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hа-ha! In census-1999 there was a question: "You use a classic language or narkamaŭka?" ;) Your applications about 2,5 million is the bald lie. The Belarus language is almost dead. And narkamaŭka is absolutely dead. It is only on the Belarus TV. And all normal people should destroy narkamaŭka - as Lithuanians have destroyed cyrillics! --Aliaks 17:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Aliaks, you have shown again that you can't live without politics. Orevoir!.. Mienski 17:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mienski, narkamaŭka is real symbol of communistic politics (with Kurapary, Stalin etc.)! So, you can't live without politics :( --Aliaks 17:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

12. Супраць (Oppose) --- kacjam Нельга падзяляць мову ва ўмовах падзеленай краіны.

It is only a one more website. People want to work in normative Belarusian WP without additional difficulties. What's the matter with you denying them the possibility? Yury Tarasievich 16:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Мы ўвесь час змагаемся за адзіную мову, за адзіную краіну, за адзіны народ. Нам вядома кім наркамаўка стала нарматыўнай, а Вам? kacjam (Oppose)

You, kacjam, and you, Zlobny, speak about unified community, however, there is no such thing, not after introducing the dividing orthography factor in end 1980s perestroika times. The divide had grown since then even more. What's worse, when somebody both speaks Belarusian but not minding your orthography, there is instantly lots of hate flowing from your side.
So, guys, while I can relate to what you say, like the events here show, there is no such thing in the close future as the voluntary unified community, certainly not in WP. So would you please not hinder our right of choice, please? Yury Tarasievich 07:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your position, Yury. But I wouldn't recall my vote. My inner conviction is that Belarusian wiki should be unified, maybe in two or three pravapis-versions, but one project! --Zlobny 14:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What's so magical about "one project"? You won't recall the vote, okay.
Just do me a favour and think over the following:
Weren't you and other people talking "unity" thinking an unspoken thought, to the general lines of "...and our "classical", "the only true Belarusian" faction is to do the ordering"? Yury Tarasievich 08:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not unified. You just want it to be like that. But your "pink eyeglasses" are too "pink". Where have YOU been when we, the supporters of this Wiki, asked for help and advices at the Main_Page of be.wiki? Where have you been when we tried to speak about the problem? You're definitely unconstructive. You always speek about the "union", so WHERE HAVE YOU ALL BEEN?.. Mienski 06:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC) (Comments Mienski are transferred to "Comments". --MaximLitvin 09:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC))[reply]

pax217 =)

Я за адну мову (калі ўнармаванай нямашака, дык навошта?), за адну Вікі. Калі прапануюць суіснаваньне/сяброўства - нянавісьці ня можа быць. Вось толькі далейшага развіцьця сітуацыі я не бачу. Будзеце чакаць пакуль адная з двух вэрсіяў лясьнецца, ну-ну? А для русіфікаванай беларускай будучыні ўсё адно няма. Да Менскага, прабачце, значыцца Вы пыталіся - а Вас ня чулі. Дзякую за не-канструктыўную размову, посьпехаў. kacjam

Oh yes. I see this is a "one land one folk one wiki" kind of mantra. And oh so righteous are those repeating it.
Wake up to the real world -- the divide is real, and the two versions of language right now aren't compatible. Anyway, with all the ideological hate talk of your "pals" -- how do you imagine us participating in "one wiki"??
Why has any of the sides to submit to the other? Just think about it on your own and accurately. Yury Tarasievich 05:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support IMHO, you should imediately move it to the approved section, because the volumes are already there and this request page has no decisional value whatsoever. Historically speaking, this page was mainly provided to show if there is any interest for a proposal as such. Since the incubator came, interest is proven by facts (written articles, users, etc) and thuis page is just a step in the procedure. It never was intended (although many used it as such) as a place in which to decide whether a language is a language, or a dialect, or a slang. Neither was it intended to be a forum on the "political" opportunity to have or not to have a wiki. It was simply a place to show up how much practical support a project could have. One last thing. There is no point in talking about a previous vote made under different conditions, either (no incubator to prove the real strenght of a project). Much in the same logics one could say that since I once was too young to vote and got refused I cannot vote for elections even today. But then, nobody could vote at all. We all were too young, at a certain point. So there is no point in having this thing here anymore, move it on to the approved section and let's be over with sterile POV disputes that simply waste disk space. I wish the new wiki good luck :) --Bertodsera 14:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for support! We didn't know exactly how many votes we should have to register our Bel-Wiki. We've been told about 75% of supporters so we decided not to be so agressive and not to start the POV-flood that (I think) will begin after our moving to the Aproval section (you know: the LJ-puppets will be even more agressive after the action). And if we will collect the increddible number of votes noone will have the moral right to oppose our registration. But, if you say so... We'll think about it:-) Thanks for support and info. It's just a bit confusing that there's no new-wiki guide that could tell the people about the process of aproval. And - the next one:) - thank you! Mienski 08:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose --Nezałeżny 22:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

  1. Если будете делать тестовую в инкубаторе, буду пытаться участвовать, кроме того из нашей тусовки четверо знают язык. Нам там все равно скучно среди курдов:-) По сути же дела я разрываюсь между двумя мотивами 1) я вообще за увеличение лингвистического разнообразия восточнославянских вик, так что не только за наркомовку и полесский, но и за поморский и казацкий; 2) с другой стороны, употребление наркомовки политически окрашено, и я в это ввязываться не хочу, не гражданин Беларуси. Поэтому пока не определился, зато точно буду это читать и пытаться контрибутить. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Я меняю свою позицию, наблюдая то, что творят представители авторитарного мышления на сибирском голосовании. Почему у французов, итальянцев, немцев есть вики на тех языках, которые не укладываются в национальный стандарт, а у восточных славян нет? На самом деле славяне сейчас в худшем положении, чем французы, у которых норманскую википедию открыли буквально два норманна. Единственный путь разрушать авторитарное сталинистское представление о том, что восточнославянских языков якобы только три, это открывать все новые и новые вики, на всех разновидностях, пока восточнославянских вик не будет как итальянских. Поэтому я поддерживаю любую новую восточнославянскую википедию. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Зачем такие сложности? Писать официальным правописанием (наркамаўкай) можно и в белорусской Википедии. --EugeneZelenko 13:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Исхожу из того, что демократия - это многообразие. Но вы правы, если суппортер только один, значит это просто никому не нужно. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Наркомовка / наркамаўка" -- умышленно оскорбительный термин ("Narkamauka" is a deliberately derisive term). Thank you. ---Yury Tarasievich 15:02, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. My opinion on the matter is that belwiki should take drastic steps to upgrade its archaic version to the contemprory official standard. Менск and Ворша have to go permanentely. I mean if someone started writing in ru-wiki with yats and hard signs everywhere, I doubt it will be accepted warmly. --Kuban Cossack. 12:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(the opinion is changed---A1 10:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)) - по-моему беларусская небогата, так зачем же усилия рассеивать? --A1 23:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Таму і небагатая, што немагчыма пісаць на роднай мове :( Mienski 23:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Іскуственно введённые ограніченія -- да, мешают. Еслі іх вот так обойті, не внося в решеніе псіхолог. фактор победы/пораженія і значіт обіды -- наоборот, обоім сторонам будет лучше в ітоге. Yury Tarasievich 05:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
То калі ласка, еси считаете, что лучше--A1 10:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Дзякуй за разуменне! Mienski 10:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • This proposal isn't well prepared, technically:
  1. You can't go around inventing the language codes (and Byel... was far more fair in rendering of the Belarusian diphtong, anyway :)).
  2. You can't push to the alternative namespace the literary and normative branch of the language (the only one taught in schools for 70+ years).
  3. References to unverifiables pushed forward ("...spoken in real life..."), references to verifiables dismissed (data of the polls of 1959, 1979, 1989, 1999, data on schooling etc.).
  4. There are much worse misuses of the Belarusian language now in (alternative-pushers-ridden) BE:WP, like using the Polish-influenced barbarisms instead of either the normative word or even the "pre-armageddon" (1933) word. The immediately known example is use of "выспа"/"паўвыспа" for "island"/"peninsula" instead of normative "востраў"/"паўвостраў" or "атока,абток"/"паўатока,паўабток" (as used by Lastowski, Akula).
  5. The "negative influence" of the "mix" is completely to blaim of the promoters of the alternative version of the orthography, insisting on everything in Belarusian to be done alternatively, not in the normative --- and on their terms, too.
  6. References to the dubious sources (knihi.com is a politically dedicated site) are used, with tells immediately:
    1. For "drinking water" there exists an expression "пітная вада" in Belarusian, not bizarre "вада піць" or secondary "вада для піцця"
    2. For "handkerchief" there exists an expression "насоўка" in Belarusian, not the Polish-influenced barbarisms "хустачка да носу" and "хустачка для носу"
    3. For "point of view" there exists an equivalent "пункт гледжання" or somewhat not-mainstream "гледзішча". The conflict of "пункт у гледжаньні" vs. "пункт гледжання" is either invented or something else is mistakenly perceived as such.
I think bel.wikipedia.org is a fine ___domain for Belarusian language.
Though my examples appeared bad enough, this tutorial by Losik exists and it's not "politicaly dedicated document) and it seems like it's to be used for writing in 2005rev.
  • # You can't go around inventing the language codes (and Byel... was far more fair in rendering of the Belarusian diphtong, anyway :)).
  1. You can't push to the alternative namespace the literary and normative branch of the language (the only one taught in schools for 70+ years).
Let it be bel.wiki, there mustn't be much of discussion.
# There are much worse misuses of the Belarusian language now in (alternative-pushers-ridden) BE:WP, like using the Polish-influenced barbarisms instead of either the normative word or even the "pre-armageddon" (1933) word. The immediately known example is use of "выспа"/"паўвыспа" for "island"/"peninsula" instead of normative "востраў"/"паўвостраў" or "атока,абток"/"паўатока,паўабток" (as used by Lastowski, Akula).
2. Show me where i have said 2005rev. contributors are exellently literate? Same things happen to 1959rev. users when they push russian words into articles. Personally i dislike this layer of polonismes, which appeared in the times of reincarnating of the classic spelling.
# The "negative influence" of the "mix" is completely to blaim of the promoters of the alternative version of the orthography, insisting on everything in Belarusian to be done alternatively, not in the normative --- and on their terms, too.
Yes, til all of admins use it. But, as it has been already discussed naming categories in 1959rev. style will cause bigger mess. And naming all the cathegories in 1959rev. is POV, as it's POV to name all the cathegories in 2005rev. The only right decision is to split as it seems to me.
So I personally miss your point, you dislike 2005rev, but you denie new wiki too. What's the matter then? 82.209.208.199 14:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Why did you open new request instead of reopen old one? --EugeneZelenko 13:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't know it may be reopened/Facts were totally untrue in there.82.209.208.199 14:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Which facts exactly? At least list of opposers/supporters and their arguments could be definitely shared.
Please register on meta.
EugeneZelenko 14:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Statements that 2005rev. is a couple of archaic dialects and 1959rev. is "a present-day belarusian". And i thought there was a proposal to keep 2005rev. as a filial of 1959rev, but not as separate project. It's a bit confusing for me, I'vent found that in the previous request, maybe i've read of it somewhere else. 82.209.208.199 15:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And i thought there was a proposal to keep 2005rev. as a filial of 1959rev, but not as separate project. - it was condition for support from MaximLitvin. These words was not in request itself. --EugeneZelenko 16:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • I've read a terrible article about Homel recently. This is what i've noticed:
  1. Introduction is written in 2005rev.
  2. Part about name of the city is written in 1959rev.
  3. Part about history is written in 2005rev.
  4. Part about population is written in 1959rev. (тысяч instead of тысячаў)
  5. Part about education in Homel is mixed: subsection about univercities is written in 1959rev., subsection about institutes is written 2005rev. (word Мінистэрства uses both belarusian і and russian и for some reason)
  6. Parts about industry, sport and comments to external links are written in 2005rev.

And this is only 1 example of what this "encyclopaedia" contains. What do you think, is such a situation normal for Wikipedia?

Could you please take a look into be:Вікіпэдыя:Правапіс and be:Абмеркаваньне Вікіпэдыя:Правапіс#Галасаваньне па новай рэдакцыі правіл? Rules are exists, but does anybody following them? If you have time, please fix article. --EugeneZelenko 14:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The use of the ISO 639 codes for Belarusian language belongs to the normative, literary, academic branch of the Belarusian language, which millions of people are at least familiar with (1999 poll), which is taught in shool on mandatory basis, etc. etc. ad nauseaum.
  • Consequently, the normative branch of language in Wikipedia declaring it's in "Belarusian language", must primarily provide the possibility for the use of the normative variant. Everything else, be it a dialect, an alternative orthography or anything, either co-exists non-disruptingly, or goes out into separate sub-spaces. It's not the business of the normal Belarusian language speaker that somebody wants everybody to use the brilliant new invented orthography and it can't be considered a POV that the un-curtailed use of the normative version of language is primarily expected in the wikipedia decalring itself Belarusian.
  • However, what we have now in BE:WP is:
  1. The (3) admins and their pals pushing the use of the alternative orthography and inventing the "righteous" lexicon.
  2. The admins are backed by the rules which weren't voted on when introduced, and those rules are curtailing the use of the normative branch of the language.
  3. The currently on-going vote on so called "co-existence of orthographies" is conducted with all imaginable violations of procedure -- e.g., admin EugeneZelenko who opened the voting didn't put all of the proposals on vote, and refused to do so, when reminded, retorting that the proposals not put on vote were "not quite good". AFAIU, the right to vote is determined by the previous participation in BE:WP (subjected to the mentioned rules).
Only anonimous user are not allowed in this voting. I think this is common practice in WP. --EugeneZelenko 14:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh well, somebody (was it you, admin EugeneZelenko?) had "cleverly" removed all the discussion on the proposals on the rules prior to June 25, 2006, complete with my proposal (which is not on voting) which initiated the discussion , on the prior to 25.06.2006, so now EugeneZelenko feels free to claim that "all is well" with the BE:WP procedure. What a "fearless fighters with regime" those persons are. What a petty falsificators. Have decency to stand by to your own actions, "admin" EugeneZelenko! ---Yury Tarasievich 06:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


So, you would agree if the current be.wiki stays for 1959rev. and 2005rev. articles are moved to, for ex., be-alt.wiki? Btw, i've now read one more article in even more odd orthography - about Joseph Yuho (Язэп Юхо), it's written in 1959rev. with the use of "soft signs" and 2005rev. Менск and Полацак words, i will try to correct that one but i doubt i'll have success; and while two orthographies so-exist, i think such "hybrid" articles will stay and the number of them will grow. 82.209.209.240 16:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, I would much rather if the admins and their pals quit their agit-propping and just do their service to the Belarusian people meaning serving technical side of the BE:WP and not dabbing in the politics, which they handle shoddily, anyway. :)
Just think -- two WPs means doubled effort on maintenance, two versions of everything... To what purpose? As if we have all of our problems solved... Personally, I'm not at all interested in technicalities, only in writing on certain tematics... However, the un-avoidable necessity for some kind of separation -- which you describe -- may yet arise, as the current crew still understand their mission here as some kind of "struggle with regime". ---Yury Tarasievich 22:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that separation will solve such problems. In real life correctors work during book preparation. I don't think that people exist who never made spelling mistakes or used incorrect words :-) Think about corrector job as part of maintenance such as interwikis, categorization, formatting and so on. It's mainly technical, but necessary for improving quality of articles. Volunteer's positions are always opened :-) --EugeneZelenko 14:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Separation would hopefully solve the issue of petty falsificators and crooked "admins", though. Then all of your bunch will happily sit in your ivory tower, feeling smug and superiour to the other Belarusian folks. ---Yury Tarasievich 06:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • be-1959.wikipedia.org ?
I think bel.wikipedia.org would be great. User:Mienski 12:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Official State language, not the archaic form, should have Wiki! User:boox

Yes, you are definitely right, it has! be.wikipedia.org! Official? Yes. Non-archaic? Yes. What else? ;) -- Bełamp 21:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"This" is not an Official language! 18:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Questions

  1. Is there mutual intelligibility between the two orthographies. That is, can a person writing in one, understand the other and vice versa.
  2. I have been told (without any evidence) that there is no possibility of any automated conversion. I'd like to see some evidence.
  3. Which orthography is in most widespread use? This is the one that should be the "Belarusian Wikipedia".
  4. I'm getting that crazy feeling that this is more a political issue rather than a linguistic or technical issue. I'm not interested in playing politics in the assignment of new Wikipedia's.

In short, there should be one Wikipedia for Belarusian, which orthography it uses, or if it uses both (ideally) I don't care. - FrancisTyers 10:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you don't care, why ask for explanation? :)
1. Yes for "understanding", at least with alternative person looking at normative orthography and words. Not sure about reverse way. Write? Same. (I can do both, but I just "do not care" about alternatiove orthographies at the moment etc. See Mikka's reasoning, he puts it down better)
2. There is lots more to the issue than "just" xlatting the letters. After all, the burden of proof is primarily on suggesting the feasibility auto-conversion. Nothing is done and nothing is being done, AFAIK, but suddenly this "auto-conversion" thing is a valid argument?
3. Normative, 1959 (which's proposed). Schooling etc. etc. books, press, ~75 (to 100, possibly) thousand school graduates each year knowing it.
4. And you'd be right. E.g., see the section just between the request template and support votes. So? :) Yury Tarasievich 13:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok
  1. Looks like there should be one Wikipedia
  2. Well, I can see that no-one from the other side seems to want to work on this, it will be to their downfall I think.
  3. Then pages should be added to the Belarusian Wikipedia reflecting this.
  4. Yes.
It seems there is a problem with intransigent admins, basically admins supporting the "new" revision, and using their authority/power to push it. I would encourage adopting a policy similar to the English Wikipedia whereby a page written for the first time in English stays in English, and in American, stays in American. So someone who starts a page in 1959 rev. can be sure that someone will not come along and either delete their page, or change it to the new rev. Maybe I'm missing something (If I am, please tell me), but this does not seem to be a problem to require a new Wikipedia -- even if all the admins on the project need to be replaced. It would be a mistake to start up a new Wikipedia. - FrancisTyers 11:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Surely you are missing something. There is lot more to it than difference of British/American which, in its turn, seems quite irrelevant, if looking from here.
There's lots of bad feeling between the promoters of alternative and those not interested, speaking not only in terms of WP communities, but in terms of society in general.
Openly despising the "normative" people for their supposed "un-Belarusian-ness" is sort of ethos of the "alternative", and some of them don't hesitate to stoop to dubious behaviour, like, e.g., falsifying the other people's words (see [11]) or even to express their hate (like, in e-mail) -- which is perfectly understandable because "normative" Belarusian happens to occupy the areal they'd like for their exclusive control.
There's more difference in strictly language terms than just algorithmic change of orthography, there're morphology and syntax and lexics differences, the conflict is named "orthographical" just as a "short-hand".
So, I, for example, don't feel like any real re-conciling comes in close future. And meanwhile, why should people who studied Belarusian at school and would like to have some fun in Wikipedia, be denied the fair chance to do so, un-obstructed by additional ideology? The creation of this additional wiki would circumvent all this trouble without ruffling any side's feathers anymore. And, Francis, why this talk about "mistake" -- you may like not the solution, I don't know, aesthetically, or have some personal feelings -- but I don't feel there can be a mistake here, not a fatal one, anyway.
In your hands now, then. Yury Tarasievich 12:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia isn't about having fun "unobstructed by ideology". I repeat what I said above, the current Belarusian Wikipedia should reflect common usage. Any other usage wanting its own Wikipedia should apply here. If you are having trouble with administrators hassling people who just want to reflect common usage, then we should deal with that, and definitely not fork the Wikipedia. - FrancisTyers 23:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Do they say, "should" and "if" are the biggest words in English? What's proposed is realistic solution, with two versions of language, both pretending to be called the only true Belarusian, having their respective wikis. Yury Tarasievich 04:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't a realistic solution. - FrancisTyers 13:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pity it comes to that

Well, it seems we have here the following:

1. Two versions of the Belarusian language exist (for the sake of brevity they are further called "normative" and "alternative").

1.1. The normative version uses grammar, officially issued in 1959 (amended in 1985), which is the grammar issued in 1918, and reformed in 1933.

1.2. The alternative version uses grammar, prepared by promoters group in 2005, which is, basically, the grammar issued in 1918, taking features from the normative grammar and retro-introducing some of the pre-reform 1933 features. The promoters themselves call it "classical".

1.3. While the most prominent difference is in the orthography, there are differences in morphology and syntax, and diverted vocabulary, too.

2. Two respective and distinct communities in society, are represented here. Both communities claim the name "Belarusian language" (for the sake of brevity they are further called "normative" and "alternative" communities).

2.1. The study of "normative" version is mandatory in schools for 50+ years, each year about 75 to 100 thousand students graduate from schools.

2.2. The study of "alternative" is, understandably, voluntary act. There's no schooling whatsoever. The popularity and awareness of it is almost completely confined to the specific, small in numbers, social groups.

2.2.1. The only major (opposition) newspaper in alternative orthography is Nasha Niva (pre-closure circulation ~3 thousand). Other opposition newspapers are (and were) in the normative (Pahonia.promedia.by comeos to mind).

3. There is lot of non-integrity between the communities, surely so in the Internet-represented fractions.

3.1. Especially prominent is the collective hate feeling, motivated by ideology, which is expressed by the "alternative" fraction towards the "normative" fraction.

3.1.1. There is specially coined word, used in derogatory manner by the "alternative" community when referring to the "normative" community -- "narkamauka".

3.1.2. In the recent writeup, prompted by the current request [12], which seems to be the LJ of User:Slaver, for all the world to see, the seed entry says (translated verbatim):

--- [headline] I'm against the communist orthography in Wikipedia
--- ...All wikipedians and everybody who's interested in this project, who cares about the classical Belarusian language — register and vote against the "narcomans"! (another derogatory word, sounding like the "narkamauka").

3.1.2.1. In comments (translated verbatim):

Supposedly User:Pryvid [13]:

--- [in LJ slang] "...go to hell, you red animal"

Supposedly User:Pryvid [14]:

--- [to Slaver] "just voted... You are right, commies should have no place in wiki..."

Supposedly User:Aliaks [15]:

--- [the way to go is] "liquidation of the narkamauka as the anti-national phenomenon..."

Supposedly User:Aliaks [16]:

--- "...I will obstruct the soviet-fascist wikipedias as much as I'll be able..."

Mind you, that's just one "discussion".

4. Meatpuppetry is going on:

Somebody asks [17]:

--- I can't understand how to vote there

Answer of supposedly User:Vovansystems [18]:

--- well, you register [link to http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&type=signup&returnto=Requests_for_new_languages is provided -- ed.], and then you press EDIT and add as a last line: #{{oppose}} --~~~~

So what's exactly the kind of opposing we are getting here? Yury Tarasievich 16:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Trading votes

I really do not understand why do you believe that this is bad thing. They want to organize alliance with our Pfalz brothers, which maybe are suppressed by Germans and have no chance to develop their language. So why do you suppose that this is bad, that Belorussians want to cooperate with people who have similiar situation? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You must have misread my note. I did not write or suppose anything like 'bad'. That is possibly how you think about it, not me. -- Purodha Blissenbach 19:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I beg your pardon, maybe it was misunderstanding, we are so involved in this discussion, that sometimes we see everybody through this glass --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 20:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sheng

Template:New-language-template

  • we are still trying to get Kenyans to understand the wiki.
  • Sheng is a slang trnslation of Kiswahili (Swahili)

It is mainly spoken by Kenyan youth. For those who have issues with Sheng, accept the fact that even the Kenyan president, Mwai Kibaki[[19]]) speaks sheng... Mjienjoy!!! 60% of Kenyans are between the ages 18-30. Thats about 15,000,000 'youth'. 2,000,000 Sheng speakers is conservative.

Support

Oppose

  • Oppose because it is a street slang with many variants. I have the impression that Sheng is broken Swahili mixed with any other language that the speakers know. It's not an established language, it's more like a pidgin in creation. -- Rasulo
  • On top of that, it is hardly ever written and the Swahili Wikipedia is far from flourishing at the moment. Imo we should focus on getting the regular Swahili Wikipedia up and running before even thinking of opening one in Sheng. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 10:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. There's nothing wrong about colloquial language (->"youth culture"), of course. But encyclopedias generally use more formal language, for good reasons. Plus we don't do Wikipedias for specific age groups. --ARBE0 15:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose No to slangs --Taichi - (あ！) 05:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikinews in Cantonese

Simple French Wikipedia

== Language ==
this language is not used anywhere but I think that it would be useful for those who are being educated in the language, similar to "Simple English". Simple English has its own Wikipedia here, so I think that it would be appropriate to have one for French, another common language.
   * People interested (if native speaker, please mark (N)):
         Myself (proposer)
   * Language code (ISO 639): simplefr
   * Proposed ___domain: simplefr.wikipedia.org (not taken)
   * Relevant infos:
         o Native name(s): Francais simple
         o English name or description: Simple French Wikipedia
         o Approximate number of speakers: A very large number know basic French
         o Location(s) spoken: Worldwide
         o Closely related languages, if any: Simple English (link to Simple English Wikipedia)
   * Link to request on a mailing list: NONE

Support

  • A-yao: So that more people has the opportunity to learn French. Even though it isn't a language, it is helpful for those who speak French.
  1. Support --Reo On|+|+ 00:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC) count my vote as weak support. I do not know french so far, but I would be interested in reading in it, it would be helpfull the same way, as the simple english is. (And it really is). Support is conditional, I would like to see more of potential contributors.[reply]
  2. Support --Vladyslav Savelo 00:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC) I would like to read simplified French. This way you will spread your unique language.[reply]

Oppose

  • Oppose. Simple French is useless for people which speak French (including those who are at school). simplefr is not an ISO 639 code. French is not closely related to English. (1 August 2006)
  • Oppose : non-sense. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 00:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a matter of fact, the government of Québec does employ simplified "handicap-accessible" French at times. But I'm not really interested in this project (count me as "weak neutral"). The Jade Knight 06:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Follow-up: Someone asked for an example, so here one is: [20]. 75.15.198.122 00:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Berber

Template:New-language-template

  • Support (I'd very much like to... ) but first of all, explain us what do you mean by Berber. Kabyle ? Chaouia ? Tarifit ? Tashelkhit ? Tamazhikht (marocan) ? Tamasheq ? Sroulik 16:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Surzhyk (20 Support, 17 Oppose)

Template:New-language-template

Test wiki: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-WP/surzh

Member of the Commonwealth of East-Slavonic Test wikipedias http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Sodruzhestvo-sur

Support

  1. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Dmitry Nikitin 15:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. (N) Support --Mikolasz, Mikolasz@mail.ru, Mikolasz.livejournal.com, 21:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  4. Support -- Ivan Kalatukhin, ivan.kalatukhin@gmail.com, 01:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  5. --Node ue 00:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. (N) Support --218 19:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support--Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 05:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support -- A. Yurkevich 15:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. --George D. Bozovic 16:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support --Pauk 07:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support Yes, we must have this VanHelsing.16
  12. Support Yes! Mienski
  13. Support --Kojpiš Anton 22:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Support --Ottorahn 22:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Support --Jose77 09:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)-[reply]
  16. Support --Sroulik 15:19, 27 août 2006 (UTC)
  17. Support PenJou 16:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC) may be you need normalize this[reply]
  18. Support nl:Gebruiker:Boudewijn Idema18:00 , 31 August 2006, Dutch Time
  19. Support --Jovanvb 21:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Support --Vanka5 01:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  • Oppose. Surzhik is mechanical mixture two languages (Ukrainian and Russian). The vocabulary usage of either of the languages varies greatly (see w:Surzhyk). The percentage of Ukrainian or Russian words can be from 10% before 90%. On Surzhik no written sources. Wikipedia on Surzhik - simply unchancy fun. --Yakudza 10:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Я просто надеюсь, что раз группа поддержки есть, из этого мог бы вырасти литературный язык для Дона-Курска, там южнорусские диалекты, близкие к украинскому, а литературного языка до сих пор нет. Северорусское языковое движение очень большое, и поддерживает два стандарта - поморский и сибирский, а на Юге России мы ничего такого не видим. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
На юге тоже есть, связанное с казачеством. На http://fstanitsa.ru/ этот вопрос время от времени поднимается, словарь "казачьего языка" составяют. Но к суржику, все это имеет очень слабое отношение, т.к. эти попытки делаются на основе во многом сложившегося донского говора русского языка, а не на такой зыбкой "креольской" основе. У суржика, как мне кажется, просто никаких норм быть не может, это переходное явление. И очень сильно варьируется. Иногда можно услышать предложение на чистом украинском, и тут же рядом на чистом русском. Иногда это вкрапелиния отдельных русских слов, иногда вкрапления отдельных украинских слов. --Yakudza 18:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
На самом деле я не возражаю против того что вы говорите. Просто инициатива Никитина мне показалась удобным случаем хоть в чем-то поддержать казачество в этих попытках, может быть на основе креольского языка там что-то получится. Я же не могу реально к ним включиться, я не носитель донского диалекта. Поэтому к этому реквесту я и сам отношусь не так ревностно, как к сибирскому, понимая его дискуссионность. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Если речь идёт о говоре донских козаков, то соответственное должно быть и название. Я бы поддержал проэкт "донского языка" (как и поддерживал сибирский), если таковой существует, если он отличается от русского, украинского и беларусского (как например тот же сибирский) и есть этому серьёзные подтверждения. Что же касается бытующего в Украине суржика - он по сути есть продуктом длительной преступной русификационной политики Московской империи, которая проводилась на протяжении столетий. Попытка закрепления суржика по сути есть преступной попыткой разрушения украинского языка. Поэтому украинский суржик в википедии категорически неприемлем. --A1 09:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Мы включаем в язык и козацкие слова. Разрушать украниский язык? Хм. Откуда такие выводы? Просто есть носители суржика, есть украинского. Почему одним можно говорить на своём языке, а другим нельзя? Я тоже могу сказать, что украинский - это результат преступной полонизационной политики. --Dmitry Nikitin 12:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Да ну? Творчество Котляревского и Шевченко - результат полонизации? А может тогда и Пушкин писал на смеси древнеславянского с татарским? :) Кроме того суржик, как и трасянка - не нормирован и не только имеет некоторые отличия в пределах одного района, но и даже в разговорной практике конкретного человека не особенно стабилен. Интересно, чьим именно суржиком Вы руководствуетесь при создании эталона и на каком основании? --A1 08:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


We write on Kiev version of Surzhyk. We have native speakers. --Dmitry Nikitin 05:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Rostyk Людина, яка намагається проштовхнути цю ідею, сама не володіє суржиком, якщо взагалі суржиком можна володіти. Адже це не мова, тут немає правил!
Ну это уже к Никитину, я и не пишу, что нейтив спикер. Около пятидесяти статей они там все же написали. Мы на наших ресурсах делали голосование, около 20 человек высказались, что будут писать на суржике. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Немає правил - треба зробити! Так, я не "носій суржика", я всього лише такий же учасник як всі інші. В нас є носії, які все перевіряють. --Dmitry Nikitin 05:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Коли будуть зроблени? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Носій наш вже починав і буде продовжувати --Dmitry Nikitin 20:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Slang??? There is no slang on Surzhyk Wikipedia --Dmitry Nikitin 05:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose --Morpheios Melas 05:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, strong oppose. Agree with Yakudza - Surzhik is mechanical mixture of two languages - Ukrainian and Russian. This mixture in fact is a product of a criminal russification politics, provided by Russian Empire and, later, USSR in Ukraine. Surzhik functionate only as a spoken language between people, who can't speek perfectly nither ukrainian nither russian and therefore can't be a literary language or used in science. Any attempts to create a "dictionary" or to make it literary in fact is a continuation of a criminal counter-ukrainian russian politics. I hope Wikipedia is a not a place for such anti-national projects.--A1 09:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Agree with Yakudza. PCode 09:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ліпше б допомагали українській! --A1 23:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose as Wikipedia should reflect the reality and not invent it. The language does not have formal codification, is not recognized by scientists or even by scholars, does not have ISO code, and does not have accepted aplhabet (russian and ukrainian overlap just partially). It would be impossible to distinguish when word change is made by mistake and when by a POV-pusher. -- Goldie ± (talk) 10:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Surzhyk is just a mix of two diferent languages Albertsab 06:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, spoken mixed language only, no ISO-639 code, no literary tradition. Angr 11:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose --SMP (talk page) 14:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose It is not a language. It is the way to speak of ukrainian and russian native speakers in Eastern Ukraine and Southern Russia with adding some words from another language which are understood for others. No books, no rules at all. If we've been talking about Don language, which is branch of ukrainian-russian tree, it is something to consider to be. I doubt foundation of a reason based on native speaker in Kyiv. What about surzhyk in Odesa or Dnipropetrovs'k. You can count me too as a native surzhyk speaker and many of us at Ukrainian Wikipedia, - but that is just, simply mistakes. In my everyday life I use ukrainian-english-russian mix. Would it be considered a language. Many computer engineers use native tongue-english mix. Is it the language? No.--Vladyslav Savelo 03:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Comment

I am not familiar with en:Surzhyk being codified. I wonder how the contributors will write in a language which has no books, dictionaries and/or written grammar textbooks. Why not just write for Russian and Ukrainian Wikipedias? If someone wants to achieve Surzhyk's codification, do it outside Wikimedia projects, get some success, and come back to create a Wikipedia. But it seems a long shot. --Irpen 22:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

People speak Surzhyk and we simply write on it and trying to codify this language. Why not just write for Russian and Ukrainian Wikipedias? Because Surzhyk is not russian and ukrainian. If someone wants to achieve Surzhyk's codification, do it outside Wikimedia projects, get some success, and come back to create a Wikipedia. All our articles are yet codified by us.
You see, there is no such thing as "people writing in literary Surzhyk". Surzhyk is a commonspeak and not an established written language. By codification, I mean set of rules, grammar and orthography, again made by scholars, not by a couple on internet enthusiasts.
Look, to have something written properly in a language, that language rules have to be established by the professional scholars of the language. Textbooks, dictionaries, other books must exist. They don't exist for Surzhyk, which is a pidgin for now. If you make it change, go for it, and come back to meta armed with dictionaries and textbooks. But not the other way around. What would be next idea. Wikipedia in en:Trasyanka? Even Drahomanivka or "Kharkiv pravopys" Wikipedias, which I find both curious inventions and nothing else, would have more rights to exist since those, despite having very few supporters, are codified by some scholars. --Irpen 01:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Padonki (30 support, 20 oppose)

Template:New-language-template Work in progress on the test padonki wiki: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/pad

Support

  1. (N) Support. --Jaroslavleff 06:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Strong Support. --Hojja_Nusreddin 06:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    # Support. --193.19.83.9 06:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    # Support. --85.141.213.14 06:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC) Anonymous IP, please register or provide email[reply]
  3. Support. --Fallingfree 07:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. (N) Support for sure. This is a large culture and a WP in this language will be very successful. Csman 07:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support --Swix 07:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support, much more popular than so-called "siberian". MaxSem 07:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    And this Siberian is Language, but padonki is only abusive slang --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. (N) Support, very popular language in Internet --Pauk 07:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC) / ru:user:Pauk[reply]
  8. Support, much more peoples speak in "padonkian" then "siberian" (Ф дисятке и ниипёт :)--Morpheios Melas 07:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC) / (ru:user:Morpheios Melas +Sysop)[reply]
  9. Support, the language is wide spread all over the world —lstar 07:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. (N) Strong support, this language is really very popular in Russia. труъ! Edward Chernenko 07:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support. Wikipedia in this language will be very popular. --Zserghei 07:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    # Support. --195.131.209.98 08:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC) Anonymous IP, please register or provide email[reply]
  12. Support. --kolen 08:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. (N) Support. --AndyVolykhov 08:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. (N) Strong support. It is really popular and spoken. In contrast to Siberian VanHelsing.16
    # (N) Support --89.175.28.76 09:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC) Anonymous IP, please register or provide email[reply]
  15. Support. ф дватцадке. OckhamTheFox
  16. Support - unlike the infamous "Siberian language", it at least DOES really exist, and IS really popular among some groups. If there's a space for "Siberian language" in the wiki, there should be a space for the "Padonkian language", too. Despite none of them should be treated seriously, in my opinion. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no comparison between semi-criminal net slang and old dialect. And such comaprison is anti-siberian provocation. What harm did siberian language to the russians that you hate it so much? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 21:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Just because "Siberian language" initiative is strictly anti-Russian one (or, as your companions say, anti-"Muscovite" one), that's why. I was initially neutral about "Siberian dialect", and supposed to support it. But after I checked the backgound and examined who does promote this "language" (West-Ukrainian nationalists, so on), I clearly understood that this "Siberian language" initiative is not anyhow related to increase of human knowledge at all, and serves political goals only. Don't suppose that other wikipedians are less clever than you. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    How can language be "anti-" in political meaning? It only exists, it is not weapon or political book. So you yourself recognize, that you oppose siberian only for political goals, just because west-ukrainians support it? But this is false reasoning, and saving the old dialect of all the Russian North will certainly increase human knowledge. The personal insult in the last sentence indicates that you are simply angry and agressive, and this agression also makes your reasoning false. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Dear Yaroslav, you of course DO KNOW that I'm right and correct. I'm quite interesting in recovering any ancient Russian dialects and other historical facts about my precursors (I possess both Russian and West-Belorussian ancestry), and I'm particularly interested in Ladoga and Novgorod archeological excavations. It's why I see clearly that your "Siberian language" initiative has nothing common with history and science. The "Siberian language" initiative (not language, which is not existing, but initiative) is clearly anti-Russian. Period. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course I know that you are not right, and both pomor and siberian language have the same northern russian lexical and grammatical base. The enemies of siberian did not say even ONE word in siberian that is not natural, they only cry - it is not natural - without any proofs of it. And how can not exist language with 15000 words and 1200 texts? You lie for political goals and this is clear. Especially this padonki request shows this. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    None of scientifically reliable texts of those that you refer above are about "Siberian language". They discuss local dialects only, while there's no scientifically known single common language (at the level you pretend). Your "Siberian language" project is a mixture of different dialects and fantazies. It doesn't anyhow help in recovering the real historic facts. And it the final period. Thank you for conversation. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The language was combined from dialects, just like any language do. The words in the language are real historic words, and this can be prooved. So this is lie about it's non-naturality, lie, made only for political goals which you yourself recognize. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, I agree to assume that you personally are just bona fide mistaken. Then, may I recommend you to take a course in the linguistic science first? A language is a complex system, not just a random collection of words! The "Siberian language" initiative approaches are definitely unscientific. Sorry. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 13:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Combined together they forms system, as it is shown in texts written in siberian language. Your system argument plays only against padonkian, because random misspelling russian words do not form language system, as in Padonkian case. But using old north words and old north grammar in complex texts - this is just language system of Northern Russian language. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Dear Yaroslav, if you promoted Siberian language as a conlang, I would agree. Yes, I suppose, that Siberian is a conlang, created in some political agenda. And this language potentially may exist in a status of the constructed language (artificial language), there are many different conlangs in the world, created for different goals, including political. But you pretend it to be a historic language that was a spoken language in the past - and this is an evidently wrong allegation. I'd even dare to name it "lie". One of these lies is that there are "native speakers of Siberian", in my opinion. That is clear for any person who studied linguistics even at basic level. Sorry, maybe I'm a bit insulting. Sorry! Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 05:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I did never promote Siberian like "a historic language that was a spoken language in the past", but language is based on old dialects of Northern Russian. Theese dialects may have differences, and now we construct common standard for the Northern Russian. And this thing is clear and evident, also it is evident that the words were not invented. And native speakers of Siberian - they are speakers of dialects, which Siberian language codifies. And the situation is really clear for any person who studied linguistics even at basic level, but your political prejudices make you blind and abusive. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 06:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a DIRECT AND BLATANT LIE!!! Here's a reference to an article, created by you. The linked text is quite comprehensible to me, and it states clearly enough that it is a historic language that was a spoken language in the past. Just say frankly that it is a conlang, state clearly that "Siberian language" is a conlang based on remnants of different dialects of old Ilmen Slovene language and other slavic and non-slavic languages, non-scientifically mixing them - and nobody (or at least, very few) would oppose it, I think. The opposition to your initiative is caused by this your attempt to conceal your political agenda. Your initiative has nothing common with recontruction of PIE, and even with infamous attempt of reconstruction of the world proto-language. Your initiative is unscientific. Sorry again, but I have to call things in their natural names. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 08:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    STOP LIE YOURSELF. What is wrong with the article? Old siberians spoke by dialects of the language, which is codified now. Because words of the language were taken from their somewhat different dialects, this is their language. What is wrong and where is lie? If ANYBODY will propose OTHER STANDARD of North Slavonic, we shall not discuss with them. For example, pomors has somewhat other standrad, and there is no discussion between the siberian group and pomors. But you not only lie about Padonki slang - and this lie is evident and funny - you even lie about my position about the language. NOWHERE did I say that only this standard was spoken, but this is standard proposed by Siberian Volgota group, and there are nothing about this in the article about siberian language prohibited by ruwiki, there are nothing about this in Volgota site, in samir74 LJ, in 40 publications in media about the siberian project. You only lie for political causes. If any particular expression in the article "Siberian govor" in sibwiki disturbes you, you can change the expression by common way of Wikipedia, simply delete them. Maybe we simply do not understand the article or just my expression was not clear, it may be changed --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    # Support. --217.70.122.58 11:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC) Anonymous IP, please register or provide email[reply]
  17. (N) Support ф тридцатке--Lone Guardian 11:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC) / ru:user:Lone Guardian[reply]
  18. Support --Tassadar 11:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Support. But in such case, also a Wikipedia for Kashenite Language should be created. It is also fairly widespead and can be understood by Russian speakers. See also: ru:Кащенизм, ru:Кащениты. --Oal 12:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC) / ru:user:Oal[reply]
  20. Support --Kink 12:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  21. (N) Support Finally, after falling of USSR we found a way to speak at out real language! Medvedov-Prevedkovich 13:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  22. (N) Support Padonki language is quite wide spread. It shall never be forgotten! --Zach0t 15:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC) ru:user:Lengra[reply]
  23. Support -- Serebr 17:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC) (ru:user:Serebr)[reply]
  24. Support Really language, it is very popular in Russian regions.--Nikolay Kolpakov 18:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  25. Support This language is really very popular in Russia and other post-USSR countries. I know many people whose native language is padonki language. This language is mush easier than Russian and Siberian! Падонки труЪ! - Oyster 04:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  26. Support дайте две! - Vald 21:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  27. (N) Support, yes! --Larap 05:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  28. (N) Strong support, there is really great number of people speaking it. MountainBlueAllah 09:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  29. Support, Strong support This must be very interesting projekt! Voting for both nearest to russian projects - padonki and siberian, both of them wiil be extremely cognitive!--A1 09:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  30. Support труъ езык, live, not conlang. Mikkalai 22:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

# (N) Support Is a formed and widely spread language in Russia. Eugrus 12:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC) Голос снят проголосовавшим, см. ниже --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose Strong oppose: it's NOT a language. Padonki, vBabrujsk!.. Mienski 21:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Strong oppose "Padonki" is in fact an artificial language developed by the internet community around www.udaff.com, and is nothing just banter and mocking on current Russian spelling system. The "padonki" language is just the mix of misspelled russian words (like "preved" instead of correct "privet"), obscene words (mostly genitals and the fucking, which -- compared to English or German -- is considered to be very offensive), and some words invented by the community. The language itself has no scientific value, since it is nothing but intentionally crippled Russian. I would like to warn the Wikipedia-community, that it is quite common among "padonki" to arrange flash-mobs aiming at vandalizing certain pages or cheating the polls. The link to current discussion has been posted on some "padonki"-pages, so, we should expect many anonym votes or those from just registrated wikipedians.. Alaudo 18:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Same as Siberian :) --Morpheios Melas 06:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We have Bible in Siberian language. We have Quran in siberian language. You have in that slang only stories about fucking and violence. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There's something like Bible (Genesis) in Padonkian, too. I don't remember exact link, but I have met this. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just atheistic parody of course, because the most popular words in padonkian are "fuck" and "cock". --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do not care that Siberian language is, but the latter doesn't use offensive and sacred words as Padonki language, which is basically nothing but that. And the language itself is not vivid at all, if you compare it to let's say Barkov's Luka, it is just repeated using of same offensive constructions written in mangled Russian.
And, please, do not lie saying there are "native speakers". There are none. Native means you speak it basically at home, with your children and in family, and I do doubt it. So, there is nobody who speaks it and the whole mess-up here is just to entertain a couple of those "padonki", that's agaist the principle of Wikipedia! Alaudo 08:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is vandal proposing and should be deleted. Padonki slang is criminal in it's essence, so many criminals and people of similiar psychology will be interested, so wikipedia will have a large amount of vandals. Comparing to this, Siberian os only dialect of farmers, developed by some scholar enthusiasts, so they will play in siberian wiki, inventing names of the stars in Novgorod language, and nothing more)))--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a primitive slang which appeared few years ago and will die in 3-4 years. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.220.35.194 (talk)

Same as Siberian :) --Morpheios Melas 12:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Siberian appeared in 7th century AC --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

O RLY? Please quote ANY reliable source proving that Slavic people lived there at that time (e.g. any archeological excavation data).--Shakura 14:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Siberian is codification of Novgorod Slavonic language (so called 'north russian dialect'). But the north russian has very few similiar to the "Russian" language, invented by Lomonosov in 18 century and used by Russian state and ruwiki.--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So, it's a dead language VanHelsing.16
Yes, dead language with sufficient remains in modern farmer's dialects, we want to revive it, the same was in Europe with occitan, aragon, etc, etc, so why do russian nationalists hate such a natural process of reviving old dialects, very common in Europe? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Last article about the siberian language, just read it and cease lie:

""Где можно купить книги на диалектах русского языка?" Вопрос моей финской знакомой застает врасплох. А нигде... Приобрести книги на диалектах русского в России невозможно. Приходится объяснять, что в СССР с диалектами боролись, а в современной РФ освоение медиа-пространства на поморском или сибирском диалекте великого и могучего находится в зачаточном состоянии. И занимаются этим исключительно энтузиасты, которых подчас записывают чуть ли не в сепаратисты." http://www.kasparov.ru/material.php?id=44E2DAC8CA37F

Every serious internet newspaper in Russia writes about tragedy of siberian people and siberian language, only 20 russian nationalists try to lie in international wikipedia about us. Stupid provocations combined with lie and personal insults - you are real descendants of your fathers, stalinist and czarists, who killed people speaking in novgorod-siberian and prohibited to write in it. You destroyed the Great Novgorod many times and your imperial civilization is founded on lie and violence. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


If so, padonki's language is codification of ancient australian natives language. Edward Chernenko 15:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Such a stupid lie only shows that you are vandal. The slang was invented by udaffcom and has almost no differences from the russian--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - only 50 words are different from the russian, grammar and pronunciation are the same. The voting itself is only russian nationalist flash-mob for stopping the development of Siberian wiki. Siberian wiki does no harm to the Russians, but they hate every old slavonic dialects in their territory, trying to stop their revival by any ways, even vandalizing in Meta. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Russian nationalism? OMG! I thought you were wiser... VanHelsing.16
And personal insults combined with lie - this is all what you can do against me --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why should we do anything against you? All we want is a Wiki in our language! --Zach0t 15:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Меня просто дергает что склоняют сибирский. А вообще добро пожаловать в инкубатор)) Я даже не против вас принять в восточнославянское сообщество инкубатора) Когда начнется тестовая вика? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And how can we stop the development of Siberian wiki? It's founded. OK, we just want to have Padonkian as well! VanHelsing.16
+1 --Zach0t 15:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just constant metioning of siberian in your mouths testifies about this. Having no proofs to you lie, having no support, hating real language of the Russian people, you again and again come to fight with siberian, again and again want to dictate your imperial language to the slavonians of Russia and Siberia--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
oh that's a kind of paranoia! I don't speak Siberian and I don't hate it (that's strange to hate a language). I don't dictate anything! I don't fight with it! If you want to speak it - speak. How can I deny using a language?!!
You use Sibearian, I use Padonkian. That's all. VanHelsing.16
So why did you vote against Siberian? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like the idea of Siberian wikipedia. OK, the language exists, but very few people use it and very few are interested in learning and using it. Wikiprojects must be large and useful. I don't believe it'll be large and useful (the amount of speakers is not enough). VanHelsing.16
But practice disproves this. After 2 months, in very bad condition in incubator, persecuted by the official ru-wiki, constantly attacked by Russian vandals, we have more than 1200 articles, written by 10 persons, this is 99th level from 228 wikipedias --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The voting itself is only russian nationalist flash-mob for stop the development of Siberian wiki.
Oh. So, I can also play this game. I insist on creating a kashenite Wikipedia, because non-creating it is a harrassing ignorance due to silencing the importance of jewish internet dialects by russian nationalists. Huh? --Oal 17:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So you prove my own words, the majority of voters are just russian nationalists, crazy seeing prosperity of the siberian wiki. We are only 5 persons, and you fear us)))--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 17:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Where did I say it? I'm not just russian nationalist, I am rather a victim of them, being crushed by not-even-metioning the kashenite wiki. =] --Oal 17:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Если вы думаете, что умно смотритесь, превращая это место в форум, вы ошибаетесь)) Наоборот этот реквест - ваше полное поражение. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You came just to prove this part of the article from Kasparov about the siberian language: Возьмусь утверждать, что языковые права всех россиян бессовестным образом попираются. С обычным русским тоже далеко не все в порядке. Достаточно включить телевизор. На контролируемых государством каналах находит свое место блатная и тюремная лексика, чего ни одно уважающее себя государство себе не позволяет. ("violating human rights and destroing real dialects, russian goverment supports criminal slang, widely used in TV and other media") The padonki slang is only subset of this criminal slang, who is based on non-slavic words of western origin. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 17:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Товарищ, если можете, возьмите себя в руки, пожалуйста -- вы уже своей сибирякией всех заебали. Здесь обсуждают совсем другое. Csman 18:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Прекратите материться в культурном месте. Please stop the offencive speaking and violating the rules of wikipedia. Отчего же якобы обсуждают совсем другое, а склоняют сибирский? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Да никто ничего не склоняет! Кстати: прошу всех русских здесь воздержаться от выпадов в адрес сибирской вики. Мы вам не мешаем. Ну открыли вы свою вики, что теперь? Работайте, желаю вам удачи. Только уж другим не мешайте, ибо язык падонков действительно распространённее (это факт). Пожалуйста, Ярослав, не надо сейчас сыпать доказательствами. Всё, нам ваша сибвики до лампочки. А вот Ваш голос против с размусоливанием старой темы выглядит не то попыткой мелкой мести, не то вторым пиаром. Пожалуйста, давайте не будем больше обсуждать сибирский. По данному предложению Вы сказали: "этот язык ненастоящий, в нём нет грамматики, он придуман на удаффкоме, там только 30 слов". Это Ваш аргумент, и я его уважаю. Не мешайте и другим приводить свои аргументы. Edward Chernenko 18:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Кто начал склонять сибирский я или вы??? На самом деле я даже поддержал бы, если бы было хоть что-то позитивное. А так полукриминальный жаргон, практически идентичный с русским. Если вам лично сибвика до лампочки, какого хрена лично вы против нее голосуете? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Какая разница, если её уже открыли? Я голосовал против открытия, потому что полагал, что такого языка не существует (и в противном меня никто не убедит, мнения известных мне коренных сибиряков в любом случае звучат гораздо весомее). Edward Chernenko 19:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
вы хоть понимаете смысл самой фразы "языка не существует"? как он может не существовать, когда есть кодифицированный словарь, грамматика и тексты? Язык определенно существует, если отличается от других языков и употребляется. В данном случае падонковский не язык, поскольку коммуникативно недостаточен - применяется только в одной сфере, материться в интернете. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 19:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ну йа матеръюсь и нитолько ф интырнете, и чта? -Lone Guardian 03:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
То, что это жаргон. Я тут не подписывался бесплатно преподавать за среднюю школу. Откройте любой словарь и посмотрите, что такое сленг. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Oppose Ochkarik 02:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Why? Edward Chernenko 09:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Я считаю, что данный язык должен сначала появиться в викисловаре (как и сибирский, я голосовал против сибирского языка в википедии), а уже затем , и в википедии, очень малый словарный запас слов в языке. Я считаю, что написать о новом викисловаре на Request for new languages/Non natural . C уважением, Ochkarik 09:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Translation of Ochkarik's comment: "I think this language should first appear in Wiktionary (just as siberian, I voted against siberian in Wikipedia) and only after that in Wikipedia. There is poor number of words in this language. I think you should first ask for new Wiktionary at Request for new languages/Non natural. Regards, Ochkarik" - translated by Edward Chernenko 12:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Согласен, но туда не стоит постить как на искуственный язык, потому что у этого нет никаких признаков искуственного языка, например автора и того же самого словаря или грамматики --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose -- A. Yurkevich 10:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lemme elucidate the situation abit. Padonki is not a language, it's more like a culture of appraisable commenting, commenting in the style much of Ella Shchukina from "12 Chairs". I'll remind, she used about 30 words to value any single event or object. Padonki are the same, they use some catchy phrases to value everything. So they act pseudo-dumb people. The important notice: all the phrases of padonki CAN BE TYPED WITH NO MISTAKES TO OFFICIAL RUSSIAN ORTHOGRAPHY, their culture allows it (u can type в десятке (transl.: i've got into the number of first 10 commenters) with no mistakes, or фдисятке, with mistakes).

Using the commenting padonki culture no one can create an article about, for example, Newton. The best one could be created imho sounds that way:

Ньютон исаак (пендосы: Newton Isaak) - первонах, фдисятке, фтопку, ниибёт.

The very simmilar culture (or subculture) of commenting in Russian is Troo-goth. It uses even fewer words to value things. They are:

    • Гламурна - excellent
    • Гламурненька - not bad
    • Гатич(ь)на - kewl
    • Аццкий сотона - the man that does thing in the coolest way
    • Труъ - true

As the persons understanding Russian can see, Troo-goth culture uses settled ungrammar forms of Russian words, and 1 (Труъ) word that is transliterated from English.

Article about Newton could be done only in such a way in Troo-goth:

Ньютон исаак (труъ: Newton Isaak) - гламурна, гатичьна, аццкий сотона, труъ.

Go then, there is even third culture in commenting (it's also a culture of funny pics) in Russian - Preved. It has born in 2005, and is a more radical form of orthographical art. It ridicules the Russian language as a language that doesn't follow a phonetic principe and has a lot of rules of "how to write it right". To make fun of Russian it goes even further from phonetic principe, replacing -ник- suffixes with -нег-, replacing -чик- suffixes with -чег-, -ик- suffixes with -ег- and replacing SOME -а- 's in the roots with non-phonetical -o- 's, -ий ends are replaced SOMETIMES with -ей, phonetical -е- 's in roots are also SOMETIMES replaced with non-phonetical -и- 's. The basic words of Preved are:

    • Превед - hello, or i'm here, or what a shit you wrote
    • Кросавчег - nice one, cool
    • Медвед - the bear in translation, the main hero and the 'God' of Preved culture. Often used with Превед word and then has the meaning of Превед word
    • Соучаснег - the object in 'Preved' pictures that Медвед always makes fun of (or with).
    • Кагдила? - How are you, how d'u feel
    • Паканирадила - the answer to Кагдила (haven't brought forth yet)
    • Пака - the answer to Превед (bb)

The article about Newton in Preved could be done but it'll have minimal difference from Russian.

And now there is an answer why I typed all this stuff. The language these people want to create wikipedia is called Olbanian (non-grammar version of 'Albanian' word) language. It consists of:

  • Padonki commenting
  • Troo-goth commenting
  • Preved commenting
  • +ungrammar text, like it often watched on russian forums, where non-educated or badly-educated young people (or the persons imitating them) make a lot of mistakes in words, phrases, sentences.

Olbanian is not codified and cannot be, because it's the 'cool' unique feature of it. The next year, forex, some words of Olbanian, will become unfashionable (Preved practically has already become it) and young people will create new forms.

Also, this proposition can mean the proposition of Kashchenitski language, which imitates how jews pronunce russian words. This language is ANTI-SEMITIC from the time of birth, and in fact has very little things to do with Olbanian language that's why I oppose it too.

Also, this proposition can mean the proposition of Ruzgey yezyg language (totally ungrammar variant of the name of ruslang in russian - Russkiy yazyk). It's extreme form of ortho-art and is too chaotic (where the russian word of 3 letters can contain 7 or more mistakes: ещё - йишсчио) I have nothing against such a creation, but as it's still not codified and is not going to be codified in near future I oppose it as TOO chaotic.


Такшта темаибли нираскрыто, фсем супортирам быстра фыпить йад. Мудоги. -- A. Yurkevich 10:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Too many letters. Apparently, you have no clue what padonki language is about. Although a few of your points are true, the rest are either irrelevant or plain false.
  1. It has way more rules than you think (according to your entry)
  2. If preved gets outdated, who cares? Every language in the world is evolving and expressions are falling out of use all the time.
  3. "Pseudo-dumb", "misspelled Russian" arguments are completely irrelevant. Belorussian, for instance, may seem to some like a misspelled version of Russian, but so what? I don't doubt for a second it's a valid language.
  4. No one in their right mind would confuse Kashchenitski and padonki, and mentioning anti-semitism in padonki context is just plain wrong: with this comment you seem to be trying to create a pointless hysteria about this request instead of a reasonable argument. Csman 18:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What comparison can be between Belarusian language and this criminal slang? Do you understand what are you speaking about??? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Товарищ, ну я же уже один раз попросил вас успокоиться. Какой ещё в задницу "криминал"? Вы вообще про Удава или превед хоть что-нибудь знаете? И кстати, про вежливость лучше скажите вашему ебанутому дружку (или сокпаппету?), который наверху собирается "всех москвичей утопить в крови". Вы просто больные люди. Пожалуйста, оставьте нас и нашу заявку в покое. Csman 18:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Пожалуйста, сами оставьте нас в покое, склоняя тут сибирский и теперь уже беларуский направо и налево. Киван собирается утопить в крови, если вы не дадите возродить сибирский насильственными средствами. Я не только знаю про Удава, я участвовал в К-К с 1999 года, и создал целую сеть КК-сайтов тогда у себя в регионе, когда была еще одна факра. Суть не в этом, а в том, что матерный сленг девиантного происхождения не может быть сравнен с полноценным языком и таким сравнением вы оскорбляете носителей других славянских языков, возможно сами не замечая этого. Хамство, с которым себя тут ведут товарищи с рувики, возможно, им самим незаметно, но на фоне общей вежливости должно бы резать глаз внешнему наблюдателю. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 19:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Падонки вас фсех отправят фтопку, если будете камментить, постя фсякий низачот. Серьёзно: сибвики приводится исключительно в качестве прецедента. Сам сибирский язык мы не о(б)суждаем. Edward Chernenko 12:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Да где не обсуждаете-то??? Когда вы научитесь говорить правду и перестанете говорить за "всех"?? Поднимите глаза выше, вы только и обсуждаете сибирский, в пять-шесть глоток. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


You are complete right, and Siberian with it's strongly codified grammar, based on old Novgorod standards, 15 000 codified words, collected from 30 dictionaries, 1200 entries in living wiki, has no similiarity to that slangs that you have described. This is simply anti-siberian provocation in context of general ruwiki politics on persecution of the Siberian language. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps article about Newton in Olbanian language should be something like this:

Ньютон, нах. (Пендос. Newton). Превед, кросавчеги! Ньютон, нах, пендосский физег, нах! ТруЪ! Я кончел, нах! [[Category: Физеги]] --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose No slang Wikipedias please. What will be next? Wikipedia "в натуре"? Or "по фене"? --EugeneZelenko 13:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose И вообще, мне интересно, почему это те, кто сравнивают падонкаффский с сибирским, мол, если есть один, должно быть место и другому, теме не менее, голосуют за падонкаффский, но против сибирского. Где логика? --Kojpiš Anton, Miensk (kojpish@bk.ru) --194.158.213.175 13:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ну так за сибирский уже очень давно проголосовали, тогда и идеи созадния падонкаффской википедии не было. А теперь было принято решение о создании сибирской. Ну раз сибирский решили создавать, то пускай и падокаффский будет.VanHelsing.16
Голосование за сибирский продолжается. Оно может закончится только с открытием полноценной вики (не в инкубаторе). Я был бы всё же не против существования обоих вик вместе. Но вот например, вы проголосовали против сибирской и здесь голосуете за. (и не только вы, таких много). Именно поэтому я и проголосовал против падонкоффской. Если бы голосующие за падонкаффскую и оргоментирующие это "Ну раз сибирский решили создавать, то пускай и падокаффский будет" не голосовали бы против сибирской, я бы не голосовал против падонкаффской.--Kojpiš Anton 22:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Да это и так очевидно, что все шоу только для того и предназначено, чтобы не дать севернорусской вике открыться. То, что падонкоффский жаргон, на котором ни одной статьи написать невозможно, знают все участники дискуссии --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 06:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
А это что??? [21] Скоро откроют вашу вики 194.54.161.150 07:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Вот когда откроют, тогда мы и успокоимся, а сейчас я уверен, что вы только и добиваетесь, чтобы не было открытия, равняя молодой язык с жаргоном, годным только для написания той хуйни, что вы там понаписали. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question By the way, when padonki test wiki will begin? If this is language, where are the articles? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Opened, but where is the encyclopedic content? Humorous articles, taken from russian Absurdopedia, and discussing of padonki slang. This is still russian language, untill specific grammar and wide dictionary will be developed. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 20:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC) I have translated one of the "articles" to the siberian language.[reply]

Padonki "article":

Падонкаффский йезыг, йезыг падонкаф, олбанский йезыг — распрастранифшейеся ф Рунети в начали XXI века аццкое наречие c фонетически адекватным, но нарачита ниправельным нопейсанием слофф (т. н. ыративом), частым упатриблением сцуко мата и штампоф, хороктерных длйа сленгоф. Такжы известин как «сленк дибилоф».

Исторея йезыга

Первонахом в дикабре 1998 года пайявился йезыг кощенитов. Учаснеги конфы SU.KASCHENKO.LOCAL начели хуярить на беспесды гламурном новом диалекти. Фскори, в 2000 году падонок Дмитрий Соколовский аткрыл кошерный и ниибаццо известный рисурс Удафком, на катором мнагачислинныйе хуяторы и фтыкатели марозили фсякуй хуйню, заложиф тем самым зачотную аснову йезыга. Затем в Рунети стала ниибаццо папулярна лытбырня "Жывой Журнал", ф которой ригулярна праводяцца флешмопы, отжыги и прочий ужоснах, беспесды обогатифшый йезыг падонкаф новыми жосскими олбанскими баянами вроди преведа.

Siberian article:

Падонковской говор ("язык падонкаф") — наречче Рунета, спето в зачале XXI столеття. Порушат веры россейсково правописа, корыстоват матерны и дружны сленговски словы, головны сторонки Udaff.com и Fuckru.net.

По сути являтса сленгом россейского говора, пото чо не имат особой говорогородки, число онцовых словов коло 30.

Деянни гимговых сленгов россейсково говора

Первой ведомой гимговой сленг притянулса в 1998 годе. Дольники сборишша SU.KASCHENKO.LOCAL зачали мышлеть новы сленговы словы рожаючейся россейской гимги. В 2000 году было открыто Удафком, головна сторонка гимговово сленга ажно досель. Падонковско наречче корыстуетса ешшо в "Живучем Бытейнике", де доселе рожаютса новы сленговы словечки.


Everybody can see, thet "padonki" article is not encyclopedic - it uses many words with indefinite meaning, expressing only feelings of slang users (like "отжыг", "сцуко"). The part which has some meaning is written in russian language, without any constant orthography. So there is no any attributes of language in this slang - no constant orthography, no specific grammar but russian grammar, no specific words but 30-50 slang words, using for everything because there are no other padonki words. This is good content for russian Absurdopedia, not for different wikipedia. No slang wikipedias were opened in english slangs or german slangs, etc. Meanwhile, Siberian is just language based on dialects, and it is fit for Wikipedia, but Padonki unfit.

  • Oppose. Padonki slang is more suitable for Uncyclopedia: this language section cannot be serious a priori. Just imagine language section with mangled english and abusive words. It is just unavailing: it can become really popular between udaff.com fans, but it will never become encyclopedic. The large support has been provoked because of misunderstanding about "siberian language" and should be annuled by en:WP:POINT. --ru:User:Boleslav1 11:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Первый случай, когда я полностью согласен с Болеславом)) Agreed. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Strong oppose --Dmitry Nikitin 05:07, 25 August 2006 (UTC)it is second voice of Dmitry Nikitin --Nikolay Kolpakov 00:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Strong oppose. The fact that this slang is popular in Russia doesn't makes it a language. It has no own grammar and vocabulary consists of misspelled Russian words. And wikimedia would never be taken seriously in Russia if padonki wiki will be created. Please do not create this wiki, please do not rape Russian language. Kneiphof 12:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Padonki bot

And I should alert Wikipedia community and Wikimedia that padonki fans are preparing bot, which will convert 100 000 articles from ruwiki to "padonkian", simply changing their orthography, and adding words like "fuck". So 18-year boys like Chernenko want to take 1,5 Gb space from Wikimedia only for their fun, because the language is still russian slang, and this is described everywhere. The bot is discussed in LJ and russian wiki Community Portal. And adult nationalists from ruwiki support the young hooligans, simply because they hate other slavonic languages. This should be stopped as soon as possible, and the request closed. This is "Request for new languages" section, but not "Request for new slangs". --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Slander from the beginning to the end. Edward is a very competent coder and editor who would never do any harm to any Wikimedia project, whatever plans he may be discussing. His numerous contributions have been instrumental to the success of the Russian Wikipedia, and you need to get back to work instead of continuing your incoherent flames against our great new language, Edward's age (wtf does that have to do with anything?) and our contributions. Csman 22:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Let us see this. And this is complete OR that this is language, because any neutral sources tell that this is slang. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 22:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Before writing such accusatory post, you should take a look into mirror... "Chaldon-Siberian" methods on the march... --EugeneZelenko 14:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is impossible to write russian-chaldon bot, because languages are very different, and you know this. Please, explain, what similiarities can you found? I did not proclaim slang language, etc. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you implemented Ukrainian-to-Chaldon-Siberian converter, why padonki may not do same thing with Russian? :-) --EugeneZelenko 14:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, it was not implemented. We tried to do this, but failed, because even ukraine is very different, though closer. Ukrainians still write very few articles in sibwiki, because they do not know the language well, and the converter does not work. You can see the translators' code - it only changes orthography and some words, and can not translate well. It was never used, and if I would have this, we should write 10 000 articles, but not 1200. And Chernenko just says: "Видишь ли, мы и не собираемся писать огромное количество статей. У меня уже почти готов бот, который переработает все 100000 статей из ruwiki в падонкаффский" (http://samir74.livejournal.com/1003463.html). Such mistification can overload Incubator, ruwiki has about 1,5 Gb as far as I know. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You tried but failed? Hm... That means only that you're worse programmers comparing to me. In fact, the script I was talking about is only spellchecker which applies some most common language rules to russian text; of course, all this articles need many manual work. And there was no idea to load 1.5 Gb to incubator, such suspision is like a very bad joke. Please stop insulting me and other padonkis. Edward Chernenko 16:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"который переработает все 100000 статей из ruwiki в падонкаффский" - your own words, and you lie now. Also you lie about "language rules", padonki slang has no rules, no grammar or pronunciation were codified, so this is OR. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 20:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You even deleted the post about the 100 000 articles, but it is silly - I have all the proofs. Do not be so stupid moscovite kid. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

The work is starting on padonki test wikipedia here: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/pad Csman 20:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Translation of some http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/pad articles

To show you the level of padonkis' language independence we present some translations of it's articles.

  • Translation of Test-wp/pad/Россея article

In origin:

Россея - страна с беспесды пицот от Европы и Азеи.

Исчо Россея ф дисятке по ВВП, количеству учаснегов и ф сотне по зачотной жизни. Шышечка Россеи - президент, креатифным органом являиццо федеральное собранее.

Многие учаснеги Россеи считают, что живут не песдато и защитывают слив правительству, высок уровнь фубля жизни. Распространено мнение, что правительство мешает раскрывать тему сисек, в особенности после обоссаки с законом об экстримизме.

Russian translation:

Россия - страна, занимающая значительную часть Европы и Азии.

Также Россия - одна из десяти стран с наиболее высоким уровнем ВВП, но уровень жизни достаточно низок. Главой россии является президент, законодательным органом Федеральное собрание.

У граждан России распространены мнение о неудолетворительности условий их жизни и критика в адрес правительства, многие живут за чертой бедности. Часто считается, что в России правительством ущемляется свобода слова, в особенности после ситуации с Российским "Законом об экстремизме".

English translation:

Russia is the country that occupies a considerable part of both Europe and Asia.

Russia is one of ten counties with the highest GDP rating, but the life rate is rather low and the level of out of cost living is high. Russia is headed by the president and Federal meeting is the legislative body.

Russians often find their life poor and are not satisfacted by the work of the goverment. It is a diffused opinion that Russian goverment tries to infringe upon the freedom of speech, especially in the present state of Russian "Extremism law". Eugrus 23:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And all the translations are incorrect. Because word "с беспесды" means only "cool", and not "occupy considerable part". "количеству учаснегов" is not equal to "population", because padonki slang has no specific word for "population". "Участнег" can mean "any person", but not "citizen", there is no word for "citizen" in the slang. Etc., etc. Padonki slang has NO WORDS for writing science articles in it, but it has many political incorrect words like "хохлы", "чурки", "пендосы" (the later is abusive russian word for "American"). Kashenite subset is antisemitic. And this is Original Research that Padonlki is a language, there is NO ARTICLE in the world, where this is called "language", all media articles discussing that names it "slang", and this IS abusive russian slang, nothing more. And you still not have constant orthography, just your example shows this. Please cease discriminate and persecute real ancient language of working people of northern Russia, Siberian Language, and promote your criminal nationalistic slang here. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 01:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's just because you don't speak in Padonkian. For native Padonkis, the text above is clear. Neither Russian, nor English translations are word-to-word translations. Despite "учаснег" is not a direct synonym to "гражданин" or "citizen", "учаснег Россеи" is synonymic to "гражданин Российской Федерации" and "Russian citizen". You may trace etymology easily: "гражданин" and "cizen" are derived from middle-age quasi-states ("города" and "cities"), while "учаснег" is created in context of the modern quasi-states (web-projects). Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 06:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And this is lie. Word "учаснег" means "participant", but not "citizen". So they speak "participant of Russia" instead of "citizen" only because they have not particular word "citizen". Your own dictionary in ruwiki says: Учаснег, Соучаснег (превед-эрратив участник) — участник. (участник= participant) http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2

And you lie here even when my arguments are evident, even when EVERY "official" padonki dictionary has not more than 50 words, and it is evident, that nobody can write wikipedia using only 50 words. You lie, because your political motivation forces you to lie even in very clear topics, like slang nature of the Padonki slang. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 06:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Yaroslav, you just didn't catch the idea behind my words: Russian "гражданин" (citizen) derived from "город" (city); compare Russian "гражданин" (citizen) and "горожанин" (townsman). Consider French word "citoyen" (citizen), derived from "cite" (city, town), and ititially it meant just "townsman". If citizenship is derived from "participation in city's life" in old languages, what's wrong in derivation of modern word for citizenship from "participation in project's life"? It seems nothing. Is it clear? Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 07:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is clear, that you have not specific word for "citizen", and use "participant" instead of citizen. The same is with many other words. Slang words are expressive, but they have indefinite meanings, and this is common thing in slangs. So Padonki slang is unfit for writing articles in it, because such articles will not have definite meanings. This is just like toki pona - you have only 50 words, and you invent their meanings depending on context. If you will continue this, I shall copy here large tables of meanings, in which you use such words like "отжыг" or "участнег". And you still have problems with orthography. You will be forced: or invent language in Wikipedia - this is original research - or write articles in russian language, simply damaging their orthography. And this is very easy to reveal, so I shall have fun during the nearest days, exposing your lie)))) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The thing that language's lexicon is relatively poor doesn't make it useless and doesn't disallow us to use wider concepts instead Eugrus 08:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC).[reply]
Yes, Eugrus, and this is the thing which I want to reveal! Language's lexicon is relatively poor, and unfit for wikipedia. Just read my position in current dicussion in LJ - "Это статьи на русском языке с использованием 10 жаргонных слов. Именно что это не годится для википедии, правила которой отрицают эмоциональную оценочность. Если бы там были словарь, грамматика, и это годилось бы для выражения хоть чего-то кроме эмоциональной оценки, то да, я считал бы языком"

There is no meaning 'гражданин' in current dictionaries of Padonki slang. So inventing the meaning in Wikipedia is definitely Original Research.--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see, you still didn't catch the idea. It's quite easy: in middle age, people had no specific word for "citizen", and used "townsman" instead; (add German "Buerger" from "Burg" here - I forgot to mention it above). The same with "учаснег Россеи". And the second: I have no any problems. I don't have any plans to participate in creation of Padonkian texts, maybe minor corrections only; in this area, I'm just a researcher. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 08:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I catched the idea. but the idea is OR, because the idea is absent in non-wikipedia dictionaries of Padonki slang. It is good to research slangs, but slangs are definitely unfit for wikipedia articles. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't bother about that. I have just proved a fact that your assertion: '"Участнег" can mean "any person", but not "citizen"' is wrong. "Участнег" CAN mean "citizen". That's all, and all other your points do not matter in this context. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 12:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Участнег" CAN mean "citizen", because "ciizen" is person. And "Участнег" means "any person". There are no other neutral words in the slang for the persons, others are abusive. So you can not write wikipedia by such a language where meaning of the words are indefinite, you can only joke by it, so the slang can be used in Absurdopedia only --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dude, once again, can you leave us alone, please? We let you have your own personal wikipedia in whatever slang you have, why don't you apply all that immense energy of yours to it! Go on and create new things, don't just keep shitting on others, that's what I would suggest. Csman 10:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And this is the last argument that you have:-) No shit on you, just speaking truth. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One more "translation"

Padonki: Жывой Журнал (пендосский LiveJournal) -- пендосская лытбырня, ставшайя беспесды папулярной в Рунети посли 2002 года. Сриди учаснегов лытбырни -- гламурные деффачки, олкоголеки, многие падонки и флешмопперы, а такжы многийе знаминитые пейсатели и прочие афтары.

English:

LiveJornal (abusive word for Americans, LiveJournal) - blog of cursed Americans, cool and popular in Russia after 2002 year (the rest of the sentence is written in Russian - Y.Z.). It's participants are - prostitutes, alcoholics, criminals and flashmobers, and many well-known writers (the last word is changed antisemitically - Y.Z.) and other authors.

Where is science? Where is objectivity? It is impossible to write articles in criminal slang, and Wikipedia will loss it's reputation publishing politically incorrect and abusive articles. But there is no possibility to write normal articles in abusive language. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even russian wikipedia article is named "Жаргон падонков" (Padonki SLANG)(http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2). This is definitely slang, even CLASSICAL example of slang, and to name it language is definitely OR. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This translation is fully falsification. "Гламурные деффачки, олкоголеки, многие падонки и флешмопперы" are all names for communities, but not the things are written behind.
"Падонки" is the name for the language speakers. "Гламурные деффачки" is the name for stylish girls, it is formed from Russian "glamourous girls", but has a separate meaning, and of couse it has nothing in common with prostitutes, the only reason for such translation was to discredit us.
Somewhy User:Yaroslav Zolotaryov also calls us nationalists when we hate and have nothing in common with nationalizm, and again, the only reason is to to discredit us
Eugrus 08:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just show me padonki dictionary to prove that my translation is wrong. Slang words have indefinite meanings, so деффачки can be translated like "girls" or like "prostitutes", and by very-very other ways. Also with the word падонки and others. And what means the word алкоголики if not alcoholics? And nationalism is just using words хохлы and пендосы, and пейсатели --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
English for "пейсатели" is just "writes" and has no link for any nations. User:Yaroslav Zolotaryov is trying to hype. Eugrus 08:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Every Russian understands the etimology of the word пейсатели - russian писатели (writers) was mispronounced so it is no similiar to the word пейсы, and пейсы is attribute of jewish culture. The whole kashenite slang is antisemitic, as my belorussian friend have already said, and you know this, but lie. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'am a Jew and I do not find anything abusive for me in padonkis' language. I also sure you that пейсатели has no ethimological connection to пейсы Eugrus 09:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And this is your subjective position, but other persons find it. This is common thing with slangs, where words have no definite meanings. Meanwhile, authors of the Padonkian wiki write now definite lie in the articles - for example, article http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/pad/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%84%D1%84%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B9%D0%B5%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%B3 now contains information "Padonki language has 300000 words" which is not proved by external sources and this is definitely lie. So your Padonki wikipedia is version of Russian Absurdopedia, but you already has Absurdopedia, written in russian language using Padonki words. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are not right at all. There are 300.000 words used in language's own spelling and neary 100 having their own principially new meanings. Eugrus 10:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And where is the dictionary where the 300 000 words are codified? Padonki slang have no codified spelling, and this is written in every article about it. And please provide any link about the 100 words with new meanings too. Even 30 words mentioned in the dictionary in ruwiki are mostly uncorrectly spelling russian words or common russian words using in expressive meanings --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Huh. Then give a link to Siberian dictionary VanHelsing.16
http://totem.in.ua/sib/dict.php Online version. http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-WP/chal/%D0%96%D1%8B%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA_%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0 Wiki version. And I have many more links, because we work with dictionary very hard. Siberian has very codified grammar and wide dictionary, but padonki is stupid slang of young russians like you, and nothing more. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really do not like the way Падонкаффская Википедия developes. The slang once used for joking will never be able for anything else, veiled en:mat will never be a language, even if I and other russian users could inspire people who do not know russian with it. Wikipedia is not the place for me and for us to train in incompitent jurors' persuasion. I will not play for trail-blazers' team any more. So I am now strongly Oppose. I do not want a non-language Wikipedia to exist. My ex. allies, please stop, we have to stop this idling. Eugrus 23:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Альтернатива

Уважаемые коллеги! В связи с несоответствием требованиям Википедии мы не можем расчитывать на размещение http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/pad в качестве языкового раздела Википедии, продолжение работы здесь в конечном итоге приведёт к её полной потере!

Предлагаю нам переместиться на отдельный проект, который я готов хостировать.

Через сутки он будет доступен по адресу http://padonkopedia.org.ru

В ближайшие сутки следует использовать временный адрес http://padonkopedia-org-ru.eugrus.org.ru

Туда были перемещены все написанные статьи, кроме откровенно-направленных на дискредитацию Падонкопедии. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eugrus (talk)

Не могли бы вы прежде чем стирать главную страницу, написать кто, почему и где именно вдруг стал угрожать нашему размещению в инкубаторе? Сейчас, при всём уважении, это выглядит, как вандализм. Csman 01:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Полностью согласен. Я ведь к самому сленгу то хорошо, и статьи были хорошие, смешные. Но это не для энциклопедии. Уважаю вас за мужественный поступок. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 01:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
ответил в http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Test-wp/pad Eugrus 01:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Не надо пудрить мозги! Сибирский соотвествует а падонкаффский видишь ли нет! :) --Morpheios Melas 06:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Именно вам и не надо пудрить мозги. Совершенно очевидно, что именно так и есть: сибирский соответствует, а падонковский нет. Причины этого уже изложены, и повторять их не буду. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 06:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
VERY funny discussion between the young russians in "padonki" test wiki by the way - "Because it is clear, that the slang is unfit for wikipedia, let us only damage russian orthography and name this padonki language" (http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Test-wp/pad) LOL)))) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gileki

Template:New-language-template

News

  • The Gilaki WiktionaryZ has just started:

http://wiktionaryz.org/Portal:glk

You can contribute to its promotion. -M --Gilek 16:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • The test Gileki Wikipedia has started;

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Gileki_Wikipedia#.5B.5B.DA.AF.DB.8C.D9.84.DA.A9.DB.8C.5D.5D

you may start to add articles, good luck!-M --Gilek 16:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support

48 support, none opposed

Please add you supports at the end of this section.

  • Support I strogly support adding a language to this encyclopedia that at least 3 million people in Gilan, 1 million people in Mazandaran And 7 million migrants in other parts of Iran and Gilan speak it . Gilaki is a language which has a rich culture and literature and many poets and writers have wriien in it , and Gilan has along history and cultural people and adding Gilaki to it will save and improve this culture, and also this will help to show Gilanian culture to people of the world .Sina Parhizi
  • Support I Want To supprt this Project. I think Gileki (or Gilaki) Should be much more supported to be able to survive. But I think Gilanian (I don't know the word is right or not) literates should form a foundation to create and integrate a set of grammatical rules and notations for writing for Gileki. These are some of the reasons why Gileki is being spoken less and less these days. Sina Rezazadeh
  • Support. Hey, thank you very much for adding Gileki to Wikimedia languages.
  • Support.i think its a really cool language and needs to be added. many people in iran speak gileki.
  • Support بسیار کار خوبی است. بیشتر از 3 ملیون به این زبان گویش می کنند. این مکان جای مناسبی برای حفظ و گردآوری کلمه ها ضرب المثلها یا داستانهایی خواهد شد که نوشته یا نانوشته به گویش گیلکی وجود دارد. میتوان گیلکی را از نسل گذشته به نسل آینده منتقل کرد.
  • Support --.I would like to contribute to this project. I can also help, particularly in the beginning
  • Supportبا این کار موافقم و معتقدم کاملاً ضروری است .فکر می کنم اقدامی اساسی در جهت حفظ این زبان باشد. جمع کردن لغات گیلکی و پس از آن ضرب المثل ها می تواند نقطه ء شروع جالبی باشد . sara
  • Support In my opinion Gilaki is very friendly language and I love this language because some of my best friend speak gilaki. Saviz
  • Support I Strongly support this great Idea.
  • Support I Strongly support too.
  • Supportمن گيلاني نيستم ولي هميشه به اين فكرميكردم كه با گسترش وسايل ارتباط جمعي و يكسان شدن لهجه نسل جوان در كشور،زبانها و گويشهاي محلي بتدربج از بين ميروند و اين بسيار جاي تاسف دارد.راه اندازي اين صفحه بستر بسيار خوبي است براي گيلاني هاي بافرهنگ ما كه گام موثري در جهت حفظ اين زبان شيرين بردارند.رضا راد
  • Support. It's a good idea and I want to support it, with my comment. GILƏKI or GILEKI is a language that must hame a independent page on Wiki.
  • PLease Support. This is one of the oldest longuages in the middle east.sad to say it is going to be extinct. please try to keep it. it is familar with zaza and kurdish and tati and albanian longuages.the term mazandarani longuage is afake try to devide 32 longuages of southern casppian sea


  • Support. English: It’s a perfect work. Mr Rastgaarthanks a lot. Im a Gilek and Im too happy with listen this news that you want to put this language in list of Wiki.
    Giləki: Äqäye Rastgär, ti das dard nəkuni. Xudä ta quvvat bədi. Xudä bəkuni ki Wiki masulän, i darxästə amre muäfeqat bəkunan. XƏNÄBEDON!
    فارسی: از آقای رستگار به خاطر شروع اين کار تشکر می‌کنم و حمايت خودم را از اين کار اعلام می‌کنم. اميدوارم مسئولات ويکی‌پديا با اين درخواست موافقت کنندvarg


  • Support It's a good idea and I want to support it, with my comment.Habibi
  • Sopport مـنهـم با این کار مـوافق هـستـم و آنـرا ضـروری میـدانـم، با احـترام :کـیانـوش
  • support:I srongly support this idea.Amin
  • support:I think gilaki is an ancient language.Lima
  • Support: Preserving local languages, especially ones like Gileki is not only a good thing to do, it is our absolute responsiblity. We owe it to future generations. Hanif Kazemi
  • Support: please add gilaki. a good idea and it can be a help for all gilaks, they live in another parts of this world or all people to get to know. armin, a gilak living in berlin
  • Support:Hello to all(Salam be hamegi),

I think that the one who have executed that thought which many of guilani educators have had in their mind is lovely, considerate and genius, I just love gilaki dialect and sure I support the idea, I hope you all be succesful, Good Bye!

  • support.please add gilaki.its very good idea.Ahmad
  • Support It's good think to save and Support this beautiful language. "Banfansheh"
  • Support: I would certainly support the idea of adding the language of Giləki or Gileki to Wikimedia languages.

I also like to appreciate the Wikimedia and whoever involved in this fine cause because it would be a small step towards and, a beginning for, recognition of a language which might be one day forgotten otherwise. Mazyar

  • Support
    Dear Wikipedia organization, As all we know, language carries culture and makes people understand of their past too. I believe that "Gileki/Gilaki" language should be survived for the next generations, for Gilaki culture is a unique culture has been nurtured for thousand of years alongside the Caspian see and in the north mountain steps of Alborz. That region of Persia has shown unique characteristics in defining the diverse identity of the whole nation. It is not about a language itself, it is about saving all folklores, music, social behavior patterns, and above of all an old coherent culture that has intensively contributed in fostering a great nation.

The wikipedia encyclopedia is globally renowned for its cross-cultural activities. In this respect, I would like to urge the directors and planners of this educational program, in continuation of their cultural missions, to provide a space to protect this language. I am sure that scholars and pertinent instituitions will demonstrate a great support.

  • Hooman.K.
  • support.please add gilaki.its very good idea.. Narges
  • support Im so happy for this act ,and i wish the gilaki language be exalted.I belive we can do it, if as gilak community everywhere do support strongly this job.thank you so much(dorfak gilan)
  • support I Strongly support too. Mandana from germany
  • Support I would certainly support the idea of adding the language of Giləki or Gileki to Wikimedia languages. rabiee gilani
  • Support i wish the gilaki language be exalted. Mandana from Germany
  • Support It's a gerat idea,i admire it and appreciate zite magazin and MR rastegar for beginning this work.certainly it'll be wonderfull for all gilaks to see their maternal language here.BE successful, -SARA MEHRYAR-
  • Support I announce my supporting about this matter.thanks.mohajer
  • Support I want to keep my language alive. TINA
  • Support I want to keep my language alive. TINA
  • Support I am a Zazaki Language speaker, and I know Gilaki is very close to Zazaki. I hope this project becomes successful. I am also working for the Zazaki Wikipedia. Here's our Zazaki Test-Wikipedia's webpage [22]. --Maviulke12 05:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Supports */ I want to add this language to the wiki groups. -Brily
  • Support : Gilaki is the nearest languages to ancient Persian and very strong to build new word Rushenass
  • ::: SUPPORT ::: I would certainly support the idea of adding the language of Giləki or Gileki to Wikimedia languages.  ::: Sadegh Jam :: www.BlogNevesht.com :::


  • " SUPPORT "* and " WHY NOT ? " Everybody living in ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN is strongly supporting the fact that GILEKI language has the capacity to be one of Wikimedias languages or branches . Gileki with more than 10 million speakers in Iran and some in neighbour countries like Azarbayejan can be a popular part of wikimedia.
  • Support well well well finaly,what a nice idea? To tell you the truth I don’t know how I ended up here, I was just surfing the web, but im really glad to be here and thanks to the person who came up with this idea,two tumbs up.  : :Farzad :  : www.iranianmp3s.com :::>
  • Strong support:please add this language to the wiki. reza
  • Suport It will be great for Wikipedia and For us as well. Please add Gilaki and will be one of most progressive people in the world. :::Keyvan:::
  • Suport man az a kaar hemayat kunam va omidvaram be natije farese.behnam_tintin
  • Support In my opinion Gilaki is very friendly language and I love this language because some of my best friend speak gilaki. S Mehdi Fattahi

Oppose

Please add your objections here by clicking the edit button at the right.

Comments

Please add your comments here by clicking the edit button at the right.

Giləki or Gileki?

I have received this interesting email[pdf format in Farsi]. I have modified and posted it since it seems a good discussion subject.--Vtmmd 04:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bie-pas and Bie-pish dialects of Gileki? How we can consider the two main dialects of Gileki? There are the Bie-pas dialect which is spoken in Rasht and Fuman and Bie-pish one which is spoken in Lahijan and alngerud.--Vtmmd 17:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Min Dong

Template:New-language-template

Support:

  1. Support --Taichi - (あ！) 21:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Node ue 00:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support --Chun-hian 19:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support --Belgian man (nl na en) 10:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support -- nl:Gebruiker:Boudewijn Idema, 14:00, 1 September
  6. Support A-giâu 15:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support -- Tobias Conradi 01:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support – Kaihsu 09:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support -- This will be very useful. A-yao 13:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support Sroulik 16:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose:

--Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 11:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

  • The Mìng-dĕ̤ng-ngṳ̄ Test Wikipedia has been created Here.

--Jose77 00:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • The current article about Min Dong is merely a stub. For outsiders to understand the debate, people familiar with this language ought to provide some context. For example, they could provide some comparisons of Min Dong with Min Nan, and even Mandarin. I am not a Min Dong speaker, but in my opinion, Min Dong ("Eastern Min") is merely a dialect of the Min language whose pronunciations, slang, and minor grammatical points make it moderately unintelligible with other Min dialects, similar to Schwyzerdütsch (Alemannic or "Swiss German")'s relationship with German. So unlike Min itself, which is a distinct language (not a dialect) within the Chinese language family which includes Mandarin, Cantonese, and Wu (all virtually completely unintelligible languages as different as Spanish and French); Min Dong and Min Nan are dialects of the same language. And dialects of languages don't have their own wikipedias. Or do they: Wikipedia in Alemannic/Swiss German Low Saxon/German Wikipedia --72.140.132.53 06:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, you're wrong. Very, very, very, very wrong. "Bân-lâm" is Min Nan (Southern Min) equivalent of Min Dong (Eastern Min) word "Mìng-nàng". If you think "ban lam" and "ming nang" are phrases in the same language, you are insane. --Node ue 08:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The idea that "Min Dong and Min Nan are dialects of the same language" is easy to understand but hard to defend. It's important to understand that Min is very much a linguistic construction, useful for a birds-eye-view classification but not necessarily reflective of actual linguistic practices (e.g. intelligibility). LOL, you'd never hear a Min Dong speaker say to a Min Nan speaker (or vice versa), "Hey, we both speak Min. We are Min speakers". In fact, as a Min Nan speaker I find Hakka easier to learn than Min Dong! Also, even Min Nan itself is possibly and arguably more than one language, as some non-minor dialects are a bit hard to understand. A-giâu 15:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there really only 250,000 speakers of Min Dong, as the template above says? I am also surprised that Chinese people have yet to post linguistically-uneducated comments on how not only is Min Dong the same language as Min Nan, but that it is also the same language as Mandarin! (i.e. the argument that Chinese "dialects" shouldn't be written). --Usuario 02:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Laz language (Lazuri Nena)

Template:New-language-template

Support:

  1. Supporttr:Toroci(N)
  2. Support 64.56.235.16 15:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Kober
  4. Support Khoikhoi 17:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support Belgian man (nl #na en) 11:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support --Taichi - (あ！) 05:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support --Memty 12:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support Kneiphof 12:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support nl:Gebruiker:Boudewijn Idema , 13:58, 1 September
  10. Support Sroulik 16:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support Trulala-- 03:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised Wikipedia didn't already have this language.

Oppose:

  1. --Node ue 22:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC) until you find some native speakers.[reply]
  2. --Baristarim 05:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC) Please let some native users make the demand..[reply]

Comments:

  • If cdo is the ISO code, you will have to go with it for the subdomain, too. This appears a bit unfortunate, since laz would certainly be nice. If possible, try to have the ISO code changed, which I doubt would be easy or quickly accomplished. Good luck! -- Purodha Blissenbach 00:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gagauz

Template:New-language-template

Support:

  1. Belgian man (nl na en) 11:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC) Second language in Moldova[reply]
  2. Support --Taichi - (あ！) 06:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support --Lenev 19:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support --Khoikhoi 03:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support --Zserghei 10:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support --Memty 12:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support Kneiphof 12:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support Antares 23:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support Mehrdad 18:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support --Absar 16:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support Sroulik 16:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose:

  1. OpposeWhile I support a Gagauz Wikipedia, I think we must wait until there are native speakers to support it. --Node ue 18:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    And this is just the question I tried to ask in tatar language below, "where are the authors?" --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 00:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. OpposeGagauz Wikipedia? You must be kidding. --Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 19:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

Sample text (Universal Declaration of Human Rights; Article 1) latin: Insannar hepsi duuêrlar serbest hem birtakım kendi kıymetindä hem haklarında. Onnara verilmiş akıl hem üz da läazım biri-birinä davransınnar kardaşlık ruhuna uygun. /cyrillic: Инсаннар хепси дууэрлар сербест хем биртакым кенди кыйметиндӓ хем хакларында. Оннара верилмиш акыл хем ӱз да лӓазым бири-биринӓ даврансыннар кардашлык рухуна уйгун.

Язучылар бармы? Кем алар? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 01:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The language code is gag and not tut. I have created a portal for the Gagauz language. NB Gagauz is the third language in Moldova; Bulgarian is the third according to Ethnologue. GerardM 15:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Aramaic/Syriac Wiktionary

I request that a wiktionary for the Aramaic/Syriac language be created for the many ethnicities that use this language. I also would like to be the Administrator of this wiktionary. Makkow

Polabian Wikipedia

Template:New-language-template

According to Ethnologue Polobian is an extinct language. GerardM 21:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Arabic in latin letters

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Support! I will contribute to it! Wellcome to the incubator! I already write to farsi latin wiki and will support arabic latin wiki of course. Marchaban! Jazaq Allahu khayran! --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 01:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Although I do support the idea; there are some complex issues relating to this that must be resolved before this goes on:
  1. First: What is the dialect that will be used, or will Standard Arabic be used? The particular dialect Peter Littmann used at the Wiki.en "Talk:Arabic language" seems to be a version of Tunisian Arabic, please keep in mind that Tunisian Arabic is quite close to Maltese (which has it's own wikipedia edition.)
  2. What transliteration system will you use? I ask that you take a look at all the varieties of Arabic transliteration or do you plan to use the Chat Alphabet?
  3. Third: If the Standard Arabic is to be used, isn't it more efficient of using an automatic Arabic-Latin converstion system on Wiki.ar based on the Serbian and Chinese Wikipedias automatic converters? Or do you plan to use a Simplified version of Arabic?
As you see, there are quite a bit of issues to resolve before actually going on with this particular proposal. --Agari 19:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • So, I have to declare my idea and decide: I search a language and script in which most arabic and latin/roman letters using people can understand a text like a newspaper and can discuss things as their live, as actual politic.
      • Maltesian may be a god choice from my point of view, what do you suggest?
      • Transliteration: Dont know, please make a suggestion. It should be understandable/logic for someone who knows nothing about transliteration. I dont know the arabic sign of Ayn or 3 like in chat, but I know there is a city named Ain Draham in Tunisia.
      • I think a form of simplified Arabic would be good, so the most people have a chance to understand and discuss things like their live, meaning of respect, things which are important to them like situation in palestine, culture, why a arabic woman is not free to show her body as an european wife...

A other thing: I am german, but the first words I spoke today when I am not full awaked: kadesh wocket? I normal should use german words, when I think, but I think in other languages, too. I think: Scheisse, but I speak: kurba maj. Cause I just visited Ziolona Gora in Polska for a time of three weeks, I not learned many words just the words most often heared and used. Do you know such phenomen? --Peter Littmann 06:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Siberian Wikisource

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Siberian Wikipedia is opened and already have about 4000 articles, we have a large community and now we need a Wikisource to represent different texts in ancient Siberian (Northern Russian) Language. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Votes

  1. Support - see comments. --Amir E. Aharoni 15:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Wikipedias

Kabyle Wikipedia

Template:Requests for new languages/Kabyle

Comments

There exist a wikipedia in Kabyle but it is independent Kab wiki, Could you please -the administrators- create an official kabyle wiki as quickly as possible, because most of Kabyles don't understand english and are not willing to participate in this sort of Poll, If it's created, many people will move from the unofficial kab wiki and from for the officiel french wiki the official (future) one. THANK YOU. Amazighingly yours. - by 89.80.212.5 on this page on 31 august 2006. signature added by other user on September 24, 2006 .

Votes (18 support / 0 oppose)

  1. Support: --Agari 16:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Chamdarae 11:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Following vote Moved here from the "1 supporter subpage"
  3. SupportArbeo 17:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support: --Taichi - (あ！) 20:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 21:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support: Conditional support though. I support if it will use Tifinagh instead of Latin script and contribute to install Tifinagh as the Pan-Amazigh alphabet. Behemoth 01:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC) Also, it won't make sense how many people support it unless more speakers are willing to participate. Behemoth 16:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support - Belgian man (nl na en) 11:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support.--Siti Atiroh 05:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support if two or more native speakers are willing to participate. Arbeo 11:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support Azwaw I'm a native speaker of this language, unconditionnal support and excited to have a new wikipedia in kabyle.
  11. Support , have a lokk at this : Informal kabyle wiki and, there are other people who are willing to participate but they don't speak english, here they are [23] (I have added their name to this page) Toira 15:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Support, but I think taq.wikipedia.org is better than kab.wikipedia.org (because "kabyle" (the language) in kabyle language is "taqbaylit", so) - Yoos - 22:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Support -mrambil|discu 08:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Support Guaka 22:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Support Sigmundg, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  16. Support --Khoikhoi 18:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Support --djs 10:41, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Support Kneiphof 20:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Support Kabylpedia 13:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC) I just added a link to our Kabylpedia page since most of potential contributors are french speaking.[reply]
  20. Support Kabyle 22:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC) / There are #10 millions Kabyles in Kabylie and all over the world, so their mother tongue must be officialy recognized[reply]
  21. Support FranciI'm come from Kabylia and I am a native speaker of kabylian . And it would be only justice to be returned to million kabylians, throughout the world, while enabling them to have a wikipedia in kabylian language. And I unconditionnaly support this step.

Konkani Wikipedia

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Support

  1. Support --Purodha Blissenbach 23:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sater Frisian Wikipedia

Please keep this discussion bilingual in English and Germanas much as possible, as there are native contributors who know no English
Bitte, haltet diese Diskussion womöglich zweisprachig, da es interessierte Benutzer gibt, die kein Englisch kennen. Template:New-language-template

Comment: This request was done before but is was moved since there was no native speaker support. In the mean time, the test wiki has grown rapidly and what is more important: there is a native speaker who has contibuted: incubator:User:Brokesales, who edited mostly under her IP number. This user is known to be a prominent Sater Frisian author.
Kommentar: Man hat diesen Antrag schon zuvor getan, aber er wurde abgelehnt da es keine Muttersprachler gab die diese Wikipedia unterstützten. Inzwischen gibt es eine Muttersprachlerin die beigetragen hat: incubator:User:Brokesales, die allerdings meistens als IP-Nummer geschrieben hat, von der man aber weiß dass es eine wichtige saterfriesische Autorin ist. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 02:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  1. Support --Pyt 20:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support -- strong support Kening aldgilles 07:55 03 October 2006 (UTC)
  3. Support Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 02:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC) of course: a big flourishing test wiki and a native speaker, let's create this wiki asap/Lasst uns so schnell wie möglich mit dieser Wikipedia anfangen![reply]
  4. Support
  5. Support

Oppose

Wikibooks

Tajik Wikibooks

Template:New-language-template

Support

Oppose

Javanese Wikibooks

Template:New-language-template Work in progress on the test: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/jv

Support

  1. Support - This language has a rich written history spanning from 804 AD and many, many native speakers. Therefore this language deserves a wikibooks ___domain. Meursault2004 08:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support Borgx 10:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Belgian man (nl na en) 17:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support and will work on this, Slamet Serayu 01:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support --Taichi - (あ！) 01:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Requests for Wikiversity Languages

Requests for creating a new language version of Wikiversity are a bit different from requesting a new language version of Wikipedia. In addition to making a formal request below, there must be a demonstration of support from at least 10 different users before the Wikiversity edition may be created. Request for trial version of Wikiversity can also be made on the incubator Wiki.

See http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-August/009074.html for some additional details.

*Note* - this is not support of opposition to the concept of Wikiversity, just if you think the language itself should be supported for creation as a new language edition for Wikiversity.

English Wikiversity

English Wikiversity already exists : See v:. Guillom 15:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It didn't at the time I made the request, but I'm glad to see that the developers (mainly Brion) were able to move so quickly. It certainly has been a busy couple of days now that it has come up. --Roberth 13:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It has indeed :) Guillom 16:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  1. Roberth 13:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support. Just to see how the project could evolve. But I am afraid that, initially, its viability is limited to the three languages (English, German and French) which have largest Wikipedias. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 08:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Gdarin | talk 07:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support --MatthiasGor 12:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support --Purodha Blissenbach 16:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

German Wikiversity

Comment - in the case of German Wikiversity, the ___domain has been established for some time and the project does exist after a fashion. Indeed it was one of the reasons that started the whole proposal for Wikiversity through the new project process. This request is mainly a formality to document that de.wikiversity could have been set up had a formal vote for activation actually occured when the rest of the various language versions of Wikiversity were also set up, or what the fate of http://de.wikiversity.org/ should be.

Support

  1. Support. Just to see how the project could evolve. But I am afraid that, initially, its viability is limited to the three languages (English, German and French) which have largest Wikipedias. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 08:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support. --Frank Schulenburg 22:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Strong support. We shouldn't have Wikiversity in English alone, now, should we? :) --Gray Porpoise 15:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Gdarin | talk 07:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support --MatthiasGor 12:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support --Purodha Blissenbach 16:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support --Juhan 20:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

Spanish Wikiversity

Support

  1. Support --Yakoo 03:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support Taichi - (あ！) 05:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support --Alhen 13:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support --Joanfusan 14:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support --Javier Carro 16:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support --JLG 6:51, 04 September 2006
  7. Support -- Forza4 10:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support -- Boku_wa_Kage 19:08, 4 September 2006 This user has an account in es:b: and he contributes to Spanish Wikiversity --Javier Carro 17:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support --80.33.57.51 14:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support --217.124.48.188 17:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support --Ariadna Buj Estoy en pro de cualquier cambio sustancial para este sistema voraz.
  12. Support --Chlewey 04:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Support --Javiandreu 13:24, 8 Septembre 2006 (UTC)
  14. Support --200.133.194.1 14:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC) (soy usuario de Wikibooks:español como Eltopo gaston[reply]
  15. Support --Yavidaxiu, 8 de septiembre de 2006.
  16. Support -- Almorca 16:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Support -- ecangulo 13:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Support -- xmonfort 20:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Support -- Unf 16:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Support -- Falava 18 September 2006 (UTC)
  21. Support -- Astaffolani 19 September 2006 (UTC)
  22. Support -- Rbidegain 19 September 2006 (UTC)
  23. Support -- Elproferoman 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  24. Support -- Mgraziosi 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  25. Support -- Maguicha 21 September 2006 (UTC)Estoy a favor de la creación de Wikiversidad para los hispanohablantes
  26. Support -- Yorusti 22 September 2006
  27. Support -- User:christianespinoza 22 September 2006 A favor de que se cree la wikiuniversidad para los Latinos e Hispanohablantes
  28. Support -- Comakut 00:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  29. Support
  30. Support
  31. Support --Mikel 02:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  32. Support -- nicolas 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  33. Support -- jamrojo 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

French Wikiversity

Support

  1. Support Great project ! I will help. Traroth 21:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support Me too. Strong support. Guillom 08:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support So do I / Moi aussi --Grimlock 08:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support. Just to see how the project could evolve. But I am afraid that, initially, its viability is limited to the three languages (English, German and French) which have largest Wikipedias. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 08:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support This project looks like exciting and crazy. Très intéressé par l'aventure. Jpm2112 06:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Gdarin | talk 07:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support --MatthiasGor 12:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support --Reswik 03:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support Great project ! I wish I could open learning projects where my students could be joined by external students and provide new contents in wikipedia or wikibooks as assignements ! and I will help. JmG 13:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support Tibo 09:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Korg + + 14:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Support ~ Seb35 13:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Greudin 16:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Support Sainte-Rose 11:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Support Nicostella 10:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Support --Purodha Blissenbach 16:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Support --Bertrand GRONDIN 20:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Support --Dpc01 02:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Support --Mikel 02:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Portuguese Wikiversity

Support

  1. Support - Slade pt.wp 18:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support - Lightningspirit pt.wp 21:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support - FML 01:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support - Roberth 13:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support - Socorsan 15:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support - 555 03:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support - Lijealso 01:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support - 200.186.86.130 11:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support - Luis Sergio Moura pt.wp 14:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support - João Felipe C.S 23:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support - Lgallindo 21:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Support - Dpc01 02:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Support - SallesNeto BR 14:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Support --Mikel 02:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

555 21:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC) Please, wait to beta.wikiversity.org is turned online.[reply]
Changing vote: no more informations about a beta wiki was released to the public up today. 555 03:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am personnally against the beta wikiversity, as Wikibooks seems to be doing almost everything that the "beta" wikiversity claims to be set up for, and what Wikibooks can't do, the Incubator Wiki supposedly can do the same as well. The Portuguese Wikiversity is currently hosted on pt.wikibooks at the moment, as there is some content development there. I don't know if I would encourage other language Wikibooks projects to start a new Wikiversity today given the semi-official (in beta) sister project status of Wikiversity, but I would like to see the beta proposal explained a bit more before it is turned on. --Roberth 13:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC) (P.S. Don't turn my comment into a vote against. I'm actually in support of a pt.wikiversity! --Roberth 21:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC))[reply]
Actually, the first mission of Wikiversity Beta is to be a global platform aiming at coordinating Wikiversity projects in several languages (see [24]). This is a place where people discuss together and develop general guidelines that will apply to all projects. Beta is also an incubator for people wanting to start a new Wikiversity, BUT I think participants shouldn't rush into starting a new Wikiversity project on Beta if there is already an existing one hosted on their Wikibooks. guillom 08:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You've just described Meta (the Wikimedia Meta Wiki) here almost perfectly. So what is the Beta site offering that Meta isn't? Of the Beta site offering what the Incubator isn't? I still fail to see the value of the Beta Wikiversity website. --66.53.14.147 20:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Italian Wikiversity

Support

  1. Support --Purodha Blissenbach 16:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Wikiversity can stay on a namespace of wikibooks--Nick1915 10:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian Wikiversity

Support

  1. Support let's not interfere with progress. Any kind of progress is better than none IMO.--Lenev 23:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support Long live our serbian Slavic brothers! --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Why not? --Kaster 15:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Oppose

What exactly do you meen by commonly spoken languages!!?! Is Serbian language and culture not important and rich enough, or tens of millions of people who speak or understand Serbian are not numberous (important?!) enough? On second tought, I do agree with you. Furthermore, on the next meeting of Serbian Wikimedia local chapter, I (since I'm vicepresident) will demand that Serbian chapter be disbanded. Such a nerve we Serbs have.. to organize local chapter FIFTH in the world, even before all the important countries organized their chapters. -- Obradovic Goran 19:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese Wikiversity

Support

Oppose

Polish Wikiversity

Support

  1. Strong Support --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Steel archer 16:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Gdarin | talk 07:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support --MatthiasGor 12:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support --Mienski 21:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support --A1 09:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support Sobol 09:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Insufficient number of editors. tsca @ 13:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Roman 92 talk 14:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC). Czekam na odpowiedź na poniższe pytanie.[reply]
  3. Oppose - Mellonedain 16:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC). In polish Wikibooks we have schools books and we create it in this project. We couldn't create special wiki project only for this, because we have this same in special category and for us this is enought.[reply]
  4. Oppose Derbeth 18:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose Kj 18:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Oppose Piotr 18:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Oppose Sblive 19:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Oppose If that means division of Wikibooks --Antares 14:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Not precised purpose, as of now sounds like Wikibooks spliting into two parts. Michał P. 20:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Krzysiu Jarzyna 20:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC) -- Too few person editing. And what there is the aim to create the competition for wb?[reply]

Komentarze

A nie lepiej podręczniki rozwijać w ramach Wikibooks? Zresztą na Wikibooks rozwijają się takie książki jak Historia dla liceum, Matematyka dla liceum, pl:Informatyka dla gimnazjum. Ten projekt ma już pewne doświadczenie, a tworzenie nowych (które można by było uznać za podprojekty Wikibooks) to po prostu moim zdaniem za duże "rozdrabnianie Wikibooks". Podobnie można by było podzielić książki na różne działy związane z komputerami, naukami ścisłymi, humanistycznymi itp., aż w końcu na Wikibooks ciężko by było cokolwiek pisać, bo do tego nadawałby się inny projekt. Piotr 13:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Co do powyższego mam pytanie: jakie dodatkowe rzeczy może oferować Wikiversity w stosunku do Wikibooks? Roman 92 talk 13:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note that noone from voting for Polish edition of Wikiversity has any expercience with Polish Wikibooks. In fact, none of them even has an account there. The reality is that Polish Wikibooks lacks active contributors, teachers from schools and professors from universities do not participate in the project. Also another Polish language projects, like Wikinews, meet the problem with small numer of active users. I see no chance for Polish Wikiversity then; Polish Wikipedia side-projects are not well-recognised and opening another one would only increase confusion between users and readers. Also, when Wikiversity supporters still don't have common idea what their project wants to be, I don't think there is a sense to create its new language version. I suggest all Polish supporters of Wikiversity to engage in discussions and initial development of English Wikiversity, to create coherent policies, and then, if Wikiversity occurs to be successful, think about opening Polish language version. Take into consideration that Polish version of Wikinews came one year after English and German version. As Wikinews also was a "beta" project for some time, this situation is similar.
In current shape, Wikiversity may take users away from Wikibooks, which, in case of Polish Wikibooks, may stop its development. In my opinion, its better to support existing project with some successes than create a new branch of project in beta stage, not having clear identity and mission. --Derbeth 18:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Finnish Wikiversity

Support

  1. Support --Purodha Blissenbach 16:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Icepenguin 12:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support --Tigru 15:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. The same what Derbeath said about Polish Wikiversity. Finnish Wikibooks lacks of users and there is maybe one or two finished books. And quality is low. I don't see where we need Wikiversity and how it differs from Wikibook. Linnea 19:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose --Kompak 20:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose, I think there's no enough contributors. --15:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. I contribute in fi.wikibooks (Wikikirjasto) and I see that books can for the moment be worked on in Wikikirjasto - and even then there aren't enough editors. -Samulili 16:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose --Alfred Dengan 13:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. I'd love to see this started in the future, but the most rational thing is to get this started in WB and if things look good, progress with the WV. --Jannex 19:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian Wikiversity

Support

А чи буде в ній хтось працювати. В нас вже є напівживий Вікіпідручник і напівмертві Вікіновини. Боюсь, що цей проект може бути мертвонародженим. --Yakudza 08:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Шкода погано знаю мову, я би працював:-) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 00:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support Kneiphof 12:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Oppose--Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 19:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose. Edward Chernenko 14:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Edward, why? Do you oppose Ukrainian project because one russophobe supports it? I don't think it is really logical. Kneiphof 19:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Ukranians almost have no Wikibooks. The majority of articles in ukwiki are stubs and political not NPOV. What Wikiversity can be?" :))) Edward Chernenko 13:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Wikiversity

Please help translate Beta page (English to Russian) at http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0#.D0.94.D0.B8.D1.80.D0.B5.D0.BA.D1.82.D0.B8.D0.B2.D1.8B

--Lenev 19:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC) Помогите с переводом http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0#.D0.94.D0.B8.D1.80.D0.B5.D0.BA.D1.82.D0.B8.D0.B2.D1.8B --Lenev 19:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  1. Support --Lenev 17:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, of course. S.L. 18:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support. --Zserghei 06:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support for sure. Edward Chernenko 10:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support --ShurShur 11:08, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support Intresting Kneiphof 12:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support -- Voevoda 23:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Oppose--Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 19:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 22:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose --Absar 16:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Strong oppose per this(ru). Wikiversity is just the same as Wikibooks, nothing new in this project, but just different names for the same things. There is NO NEED in duplicating Wikibooks under a new title. Edward Chernenko 07:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. I strongly Oppose to the creation of such a website, for any language. “Wikiversity” is nothing more than an attempt take an old idea (a wiki community for making didactic literature; see Wikibooks) and present it as a new beginning. Being a loyal supporter of the Wiki ideology and the sole curator of the Russian Wikibooks for several years, I can assert that Wikibooks’ goals and policies implicitly cohere with those of an open-content, free online educational institution. See also: the English Wikiversity’s mission statement; a Russian discussion and, last but not least, the origins of Wikiversity. To summarise: Wikiversity has no place, for it has been taken by Wikibooks: founding a website like this “Wikiversity” is like opening another Wikipedia (and calling it, say, “Wikiknowledge”) at the time when the first one is only developing. The only reason I see for such an irrational undertaking is a few individuals’ strive to be credited as “The People Who Started The First Open-Content University, Akin to Wikipedia”. Yeah right. Sorry, bu I can’t resist quoting the English Wikiversity’s creators:

    “So, if you want to read about a topic, you may be better off visiting, say, Wikipedia or Wikibooks, but if you want to learn about this topic, you can do so at Wikiversity.”

    (If you think that this makes sense, I deem you an idiot.) Ramir 09:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Russians almost have no Wikibooks. The majority of articles in ruwiki are stubs and political not NPOV. What Wikiversity can be?

So, why have you voted support for Ukrainian wikiversity? True, Russian wikibooks are undeveloped now, but still, it has much more content than Ukrainian wikibooks. True, there are also a lot of stubs on Russian wikipedia, but it is so much bigger than Ukrainian one, so the total quantity of good articles is bigger in Russian wiki. Considering POV, don't forget that the gross majority of uk wiki artcles comes from old encyclopedia, published by Ukrainian nationalists abrod, so they are everything but NPOV, but probably you don't notice it, because it is the same (Russophobic) POV you have... Kneiphof 19:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Не пойму к чему Вы упомянули украинскую википедию, но не забудте вспомнить, что большая часть статей на русской википедии с безнадежно устаревшей более чем столетней энциклопедии, еще часть болванки с никому не нужными мобильными телефонами и галактиками, залитые ботами, еще часть - эссе на свободную тему или гомоспам. Собственно, если отбросить весь этот мусор, то число хороших статей не так уж и велико и не намного больше чем в украинской. Кстати, уважаемый Kneiphof, если Вы настолько хорошо владее украинским языком, чтобы делать столь далеко идущие выводы о NPOV, добро пожаловать к нам будем вместе работать на улучшение статей. --Yakudza 00:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Может я был излишне резок, но я действительно не понял с чем был связан "наезд" на украинскую википедию. Yaroslav Zolotaryov не является ее автором и выражает здесь лишь свое личное мнение. --Yakudza 00:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Прежде всего приношу извинения, если я кого-то обидел. Я совесем не хотел ни на кого наезжать. Просто дело в том, что основным аргументом Ярослава против русского викиверситета была неразвитость русской Википедии. При этом за украинский викиверситет он проголосовал.
Что бы объективно сравнить оба проекта я провёл небольшое исследование. Оно, разумеется. Не слишком академическое, но общее впечатление, думаю, даёт. Я сто раз нажал на кнопку “случайная статья” в русской википедии, и сто раз - Випадкова стаття в украинской. Далее, я выделил из выпавших статей стабы и полноценные статьи. В качестве критерия стаба я прежде всего брал не метку, а размер - примерно больше 5 кБ. В итоге у меня получиось следующее распределение стабов/полноценных статей: для русской – 68/32, для украинский – 74/26. Таким образом из 80 000 статей в русской википедии полноценными являются 25 600 статей (примерно 20 000 статей составляют статьи из Брокгауза, болванки о фильмах и галактиках и т. д., см здесь). Эти 20 000 я не учитывал при проведении статистического эксперимента) . В украинской Википедии из 28 500 полноценными являются 7410 статей.
Такие вот подсчёты. При этом я отнюдь не хочу наехать на украинскую Википедию. Я считаю, что она уже достигла неплохих результатов, особенно если учесть, что сообщество её меньше, чем у русской Википедии, да и активное развитие проекта началось несколько позднее. Но в то же время нельзя не отметить, что русская википедия более развита. Впрочем, я не считаю, что уровня развития украинской Википедии недостаточно для открытия своего Викиверситета - как видите, я голосовал "за"Kneiphof 16:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Может я тоже излишне резко высказал тут свое личное мнение, но по поводу содержания российской википедии вы, Якудза, совершенно правы. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's not true. In fact that is blatant disinformation in my opinion. Russian Wiki has now more than 100000 articles (Catching up wih Spanish!!!) and the overwhelming majority are of outstanding quality.--Lenev 23:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Russian Wikiversity can, and will be one of the best.--Lenev 23:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That is my opinion about the articles. But really wikibooks are more usefull for wikiversity, and they are definitely very poor. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 00:41, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop your separatism. No reason for it, only your prejudgement --ShurShur 11:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Are you crazy? Even here you do not cease speak about your politics, showing that my words are true. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not crazy. You support Wikipedias on Ukrainian, Belorusian, Surzhik, Siberian and other languages, but you extremely oppose Russian. It isn't not a truth, it's your prejudgement to leading language of post-soviet countries. Only one reason for you: your offence to some Russian Wikipedians, who was not afraid to say you their opinion.
Russian Wikipedia is biggest of all ex-USSR Wikipedias and Russia *must* be viewed as the first pretender to be a first ex-USSR Wikiversity. It is a fact, not opinion. --ShurShur 13:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Big, but stupid))) Ok, I am speaking about wikivercity and wikibooks, and you begin with political accusations in separatism etc., this is offtopic, aren't you crazy in politics? Let us stop offtopic speaking here. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 20:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Зачем русским Vikiversity, когда они вполне могут освоить украинский язык?
Вот как раз для этого и пригодится. В этом Верситете они смогут организовать курсы по изучению украинского языка, . --Yakudza 00:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Да, действительно:-)

General comment: This is not a vote on whether the Russian Wikibooks or Wikipedia are successful - but rather to see if the creation of a Russian Wikiversity is warranted. The criteria for setting up a new language Wikiversity is ten active contributors - if Russian meets that criteria, it should be set up. Multingual coordination should continue on http://beta.wikiversity.org Cormaggio @ 19:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kölsch Wikiversity

This a kind of test balloon for now, to see if others are as well planning to work in Kölsch. Why a Wikiversity in a langage having not even a million active speakers? Well, passive speakers are estimated way above 20 million, but that is not the point. I will create a dual targetted language course over the next years, so the choice of the language should be obvious. No need to rush, preparation time shall take several months or a year, perhaps. Probably a single project is not sufficient, anyways, to warrant creation of a wikiversity?

Support

  1. Support--Purodha Blissenbach 17:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Oppose The Wikiversity is a serious project that musn't be organized by one person. These projects needs a colaborative group for filling all the requirements that need in a Virtual University. Indeed, in the actual wikiveristy projects in "big" wikibooks, the growing is slow. --Taichi - (あ！) 01:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose: While I think a Ripuarian Wikipedia is feasable, as are many other Wikipedias in minor languages with little literary tradition, I think a wikiversity in it is far too ambitious and bound to fail. In fact, I even don't see enough opportunities or possibilities for a Wikiversity in my native (standard) Dutch, a language with plenty of literary tradition but with too little competent potential contributors, as appears in the inferior quality of many Dutch Wikipedia articles. Make w:ksh: flourish and grow, that will already be a major challenge! Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 15:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. neutal - I think it is a valid thought to consider - not in the style of an "ordinary" Wikiversity like we have it for German/English ... maybe the name Wikiversity (at this stage) is not the correct name for such a project. I imagine a place where mainly the language and cultural aspects of the geographical region where the language is spoken are taught. I have to think a bit about such a project - why? Well ... Neapolitan is already considering "courses" for people who want to learn the language and about culture. Thoughtful wishes ;-) --Sabine 16:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Swedish Wikiversity

Support

Oppose

Romanian Wikiversity

As Romanian is one of the most spread languages in Europe, I'm proposing the creation of a new Wikiversity in this language, too. Michał P.

Support

  1. Michał P.
  2. Alex:D
  3. Anclation

Oppose

Turkish Wikiversity

There should be a turkish version too.I think it will be nice. Necrocapo.

Support

1. Support I think I can add too many things.At least we can translate the other pages.Please define your opinion here. Necrocapo 2. Support For sure --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Ciociaro

People interested : N ciociaro 

Proposer: fabiosbaraglia --Fabiosbaraglia 12:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
User accounts of others who are willing to work on the proposed wiki: User accounts of others 
Language code (ISO 639): Language code 
Proposed ___domain: Proposed ___domain 
Relevant infos: 
Link to article(s) on the language in an existing Wikipedia: Wikipedia article 
Native name(s): Native name 
English name or description: English name or description 
Approximate number of speakers: Number of speakers 
Location(s) spoken: Locations spoken 
Closely related languages, if any: Related languages 
External links to organizations that promote the language: Promoting organizations 
Link to request on a mailing list: Request on mailing list[reply]
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