Wikimedia Meta-Wiki

Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Montenegrin

< Requests for new languages
This is an archived version of this page, as edited by Fossa (talk | contribs) at 22:01, 14 October 2006 (→Support). It may differ significantly from the current version.

Montenegrin Wikipedia (50 support; 49 oppose; 10 Neutral)

Template:New-language-template

Summary

Support
  1. CrnaGora 03:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Ante Perkovic 08:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. West Brom 4ever, 14.43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
  4. Branka France, 15.28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
  5. Zmaj 13:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Roberta F. 14:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. E.coli 19:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Hipi Zhdripi 19:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    VZDSL 00:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC) Second edit on this page, sockpuppet. --KOCOBO 03:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support by default, but my comments are under oppose; also, consider changing code into "cg". --Millosh 13:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Node ue 08:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC) Shouldn't it be natural for me to support Montenegrin, as I supported Serbo-Croatian, and even Zlatiborian? Long live Montenegro! I am happy that the Montenegrins are finally prevailing in their long and bloody battle against their evil Serbian oppressors, and I hope the Zlatiborians are soon to follow. Nothing short of full independence can be satisfactory. Now these people will be free to speak their beautiful language without Serbian oppression.[reply]
  11. Skafa 04 Jun 2006
  12. Ilir pz 09:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC) why not? I support it without any doubts.[reply]
  13. Steel archer Why not?
  14. Evergreen Montenegro1If Bosnia has one and Croats and Serbs have one ...so should Montenegro. Otherwise delete Bosnian,Croatian and Serbian and make it South Slavic or Srbo-Croatian
  15. Telex 15:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  16. --Makedonia 21:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC) Fully support it, may Montenegro and its inhabitants be blessed! Long live Montenegro![reply]
  17. --Zastavafan76 As Evergreen Montenegro1 states, if Bosnian and Croatian are apart of Serbian dialect but are considered different launguages, so should Montenegrin. Montenegrin language also has many words pronounced fairly differently than that of serbian language. Overall I say it would be fair game to make a Montenegrin wikipedia. 8 June 2006
  18. --Europa 03:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Jakiša Tomić 15:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  20. PANONIAN 14:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Montenegrins (N) If Bosnian and Croatian and Serbian are considered different launguages, so should Montenegrin. But more importantly, the FULLY FREE AND DEMOCRATIC CENSUS in Montenegro from 2003 shows that 22% of Montenegrin citizens declare Montenegrin as their mother tongue, this is FACT not fiction 12:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC) (N)[reply]
  22. en:User: Petrovic-Njegos
  23. --Milo (N) 08:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  24. --God of Chaos 21:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  25. --CharlesMartel 23:09, June 14 2006 (UTC)
  26. --Mig11 20:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  27. --Jose77 01:20 Tuesday 20 June 2006 (UTC)
  28. --Dictator and General Gaius Julius Caesar IV a/k/a Julius Caesar 02:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  29. --Booksworm 13:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC) I agree with Montenegrins[reply]
  30. --Pravi Gusinjac (N) 19:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    --Pravi Gusinjez (N) 02:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC) - Users can't vote twice. --Bormalagurski 16:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Boris, those two users are different, even if they're user names are similar. --CrnaGora Let it be so, but you just can't be serious. Anyone interested, take a peek at their talk pages. --Dzordzm 23:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC) I'm sorry, but Pravi Gusinjac and Pravi Gusinjez are the same person, anyone disagreeing with me? --Kocobo 03:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  31. Crna, Crna, Crna Gora!! Independence country. Pietras1988 13:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  32. --Vlatko 23:03, 05 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  33. --MiZ 19:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  34. --Blue caterpillar 20:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  35. --Momisan 20:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC) (N) I am a native Montenegrin speaker. Do you Serbs understand Gorski Vijenac? Somehow I don't think so... You all know, if you want to know, that Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins and even Serbs, speak ONE language. We all understand each other as Aussies understand Americans and vice versa. We could not agree on the NAME. The best analogy is what happened with Scandinavian Language(s). Danes, Norvegians and Swedes all call the same language with their nation's names. So, if Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks can do it, there is no reason Montenegrins cannot. Enough said.[reply]
  36. --OutLook 2:24, 13. August 2006. (UTC) (N) I realy don't see a reasonable argument to denie this linguage. As Momisan said is a plent of reasnos, but just will is missing.
  37. --Gray Porpoise 18:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC) On Wikipedia's multilingual coordination page, it says, "The Wikipedia community is committed to including any and all languages for which there are Wikipedians willing to do the work."[reply]
  38. --Zach0t 15:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  39. --Dzemper 19:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC) Why not?! There is Veneto, Català, Sicilianu... than again question, why not Montenegrin?[reply]
  40. - for others to do a task if he/she is vacant. There is plenty of gold here! A-yao 14:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  41. More slavic wikies! -- MarkFoldman 11:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

# Montenegrians have the right for their NATIVE Wiki. There is a state Montenegr - there should be the Montenegrian Wiki! -- Mienski 21:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC) I changed the position because this "lang" doesn't have the official support of Montenegro state and there's no codiying system. People, at first work on language, and then take the gass on Wiki. http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mienski[reply]

  1. --Memty 12:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. -- nl:Gebruiker;Boudewijn Idema , 14:03, 1 September
  3. --EmirA 21:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. There is a Serbian, Bosnian and a Croatian Wikipedia, so Montenegro should have the same right. --Juhan 19:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. --Vladyslav Savelo 00:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. --OiraM 10:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. --Whalefish 13:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. --Emperor of Europe (N) 17:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. --Jeffrey Garland 14:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)(N)[reply]
  2. --Czalex 10:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -- For god's sake, if Croats, Serbs, and Bosnian get their own stupid Wikipedia, why should Montenegrins be left out? In fact: Molise Slavic and de:Burgenlandkroatische Sprache are discriminated against!!! Fossa 22:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose

# --Boris Malagruski 05:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Boris Malsagurski has left Wikipedia en:User talk:Bormalagurski and the Wiki foundation, so his vote doesn't count. --Crna Gora 04:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. --Boris Malagruski 19:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC) HOW DARE YOU CRNA GORA??? I HAVE NOT LEFT META, I ONLY LEFT THE ENGLISH WIKIPEDIA. YOU HAVE REALLY DISSAPOINTED ME.[reply]
  2. --Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 13:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Zirland 05:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. -- Obradovic Goran 07:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. --Jovanvb 08:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. --ARBE0 08:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. --Kaster 09:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC) (Is to early for that)[reply]
  8. --Taichi - (あ！) 09:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. --Banovic 12:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. --Mare 16:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. --Rakija 18:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  12. --Slaven Kosanovic 20:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. --Sasa Stefanovic 20:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. --Krytan 23:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. --Estavisti 01:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  16. --C-c-c-c 04:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17. --Dzordzm 04:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  18. --Goran.Smith2 08:14, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. --PhilG 09:35, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
  20. --George D. Bozovic 13:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC) (Perhaps I would vote 'support' if Montenegrin language was officially proclaimed and standardized in a form. Right now, the language is not neither officially proclaimed by the Government of Montenegro, nor it has a standard literary form. I think that, at the moment, we should just wait to see what is going to happen in Montenegro about this matter, and if Montenegrin Government proclaims Montenegrin language and if Montenegrin Academy standardizes it, then this voting will have sense.)[reply]
  21. rado 21:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  22. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 13:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  23. --YUGO 15:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC) this language simply does not exist. its an invention of anti-serbia-attituted peoples. i do not know any montenegrin words or linguistic differences to serbian, than only minor dialectical ones.[reply]
  24. --vlada 19:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  25. http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mienski (look at the explanation in Support part)
  26. Redundant, almost identical to Serbian, in fact considered identical by most linguists. Minor usage and vocab differences. +Hexagon1 (talk) 09:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  27. --Lord Eru 06:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  28. --Luka Jačov. - as George.
  29. --Sergej Lazarev 10:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  30. --NeX It's a dialect, not a language = Serbian-Ijekavian. --87.116.162.62 15:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  31. IJzeren Jan 19:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  32. --TheFEARgod 10:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC) (No need 4 a fifth serbo-croatian Wiki. Perhaps User:CrnaGora should ease with his/her euphoria and support of Serbian disintegration.)[reply]
  33. --Momirt
  34. --Nikola 05:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC) - since there is no standard Montenegrin language, nor is there even informal agreement about what it is, there is no way to tell if a text is written in Montenegrin, and the same would apply to this encyclopedia.[reply]
  35. --NeroN_BG 11:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC) - Personally I'm against it however every nation has its own right to chose its own path etc. Montenegrins in fact should be allowed to express themselves in "Montenegrin" even though it's in fact a Serbian Ijekavian dialect. 65% of all people in Montenegro speak Serbian language, which means Serbs and MOST Montenegrins; about the same share of the population supports SOC. Montenegrins have a right to do whatever they please no matter what we thought about it; as long as Serbian language doesn't evolve into a second class language in the republic (Mon. government has taken a few steps in terms of prosecution of Serbian language). As long as it's beeing done peacefully it's fine with me (even though linguistically it's still one same language).
  36. It has no ISO code, so surely, according to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#FAQ, the proposed ___domain is wrong? I'm opposing because of its similarity to existing languages and the lack of recognition. If Montenegro declares its language as Montenegrin and it were recognised as such, I would support this. --Nikki 18:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  37. --USer:Alexzr88 I can see that Albanian support this new "language",like they supported indipendece of Montenegro. 195.250.110.35 17:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  38. --User:MetroStar 10:31, 14 June 2006 I am against it because if most of Montenegrins speak another language as their mother language and only 23% can understand it why should we do it?The encyclopedia should be practical.
  39. --SerbiaAndMontenegro 09:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)(No need 4 a fifth serbo-croatian Wiki. Perhaps User:CrnaGora should ease with his/her euphoria and support of Serbian disintegration.)[reply]
  40. ----Brasoveanul 12:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC) No need 4 a fifth serbo-croatian Wiki. Perhaps User:CrnaGora should ease with his/her euphoria and support of Serbian disintegration.)[reply]
  41. Felipealvarez 14:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  42. -- BokicaK 05:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  43. -- GloriosoRocha 09:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  44. -- Voevoda 13:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    -- It is blasphemic to speak about something like that! To give a region which is called only by its geographic name a own language. 84.149.110.229 19:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC) Unregistered and annonimous users can't vote. Crna Gora. 08:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  45. -- B1mbo 20:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  46. --Twilight 09:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  47. --Kocobo 03:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  48. Oppose. I am sympathetic to the movement for statehood but currently do not see strong evidence that Montenegrin has diverged sufficiently from the Serbo-Croatian standard to be considered a different written language (no doubt this will change if the current nation-building program continues). It seems that at times self-reporting by speakers "merely" mean they identify with the "Montenegro" label. A-giâu 16:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  49. --JustUser 21:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  50. Jeroenvrp 14:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC) - not a seperate language[reply]
  51. This language is not a separate one : we must keep on create Wikis for distinguinshed langages, not by a nation or a country. Grimlock 07:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
  1. I'm generally in favor of "live and let live", but this strucks me as yet another wannabe encyclopedia. There are two active users from Montenegro that I know of on en.wiki and i don't see how they (even if they gather a dozen more) could effectively write anything that would come close to an encyclopedia than to a blog. en:User:Duja, 08:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I am sad because I can't oppose from some logical reasons. Namely, with SCG parting, Montenegrin nationalists have chosen to make a move and I respect that. It is a fact that a number of people declare that they speak Montenegrin and that should be respected. However, making the fifth wikipedia based on a, loosely said, similar language, is somewhat disturbing, yet normal. This would, I'm afraid, become the third fork of the Serbian wikipedia. The difference is - it would be in yekavian standard, which we, at sr:, aim to implement to our wikipedia. I was against the existance of sh: wikipedia, but now that the Balkans have turned into a mess, I'd like to see one more language have its own wikipedia, so that we all could be pronounced loonaticks. The truth is that not many Montenegrins speak Montenegrin, and even fewer visit Internet, let alone Wikipedia, so I'm not very afraid of jeopardizing other Wikipedias in favor of this one. --Filip (§) 11:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I would agree, since those in the know (millosh, I guess) say this is the way new languages are standardised - people decide, for whatever reason, that their language is unique. Fine with me. However, I'm not sure proposer is that much interested in making an encyclopedia as he/she is in pushing his/her's own political agenda. And of those that voted 'yes' only the proposer is native speaker. However, if more native speakers should be interested in creating a wikipedia, I would gladly vote yes. So I'm neutral for now. --Бране Јовановић 09:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I will only say: I told you so. Is Wikipedia a place to build an encyclopedia, or a place to promote one's own culture, language and national identity? --Dcabrilo 06:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. No current standardised form — let them decide on orthography at least. I'm sure the government will oblige in fewer than one score of moons from now. Best hold your horses friends. - FrancisTyers 11:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Per George D. Bozovic and Dcabrilo. --Pokrajac 11:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC) I would like to say that user CrnaGora can not speak Montenegrin (Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian) perfect. So, contributing on Wikipedia whitout tools is worthless. --Pokrajac 11:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Show me 5 users which use Montenegrin in everyday life and are eager to start writing wikipedia of their own, and you'll get my support vote along my own "live and let live" philosophy (I developed it separately from Duja ;-) ). People should have their own wikipedia if they're gonna write it (that's why I voted for keeping of serbo-croatian version). But, to write an encyclopaedia in Montenegrin, we need people who speak Montenegrin. --Dijxtra14:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I would imagine that not only these five people need to "use Montenegrin in everyday life" - there are plenty of people who say they do - at issue here is also whether what they speak is AT ALL different from Serbian. 22% of Montenegro's population declare Montenegrin language as their native tongue, but the fact is that what they speak and write is, well, standardized Serbian language, letter for letter, word for word. Come on, let the user "Crna Gora" demonstrate to us ten sentences of his choice in "everyday Montenegrin language" and mark all the places where they are not standardized Serbian. --Dzordzm 02:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. As for Dijxtra. Also, the language is not standardised. There is no need to rush things. Regards, Asterion 08:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. As per Dijxtra - wait until/if the Montenegrin language is created. --HRE
  10. I don't know about the state of the montenegrin langauge. Someone has said "A language is a dialect with its own army and navy", not a very scientific definition. My definition is that if it has its own written language standard, especially on Wikipedia which has writing, not speech, then it is a language on its own. But there must be some difference, not as small as British/American/Australian. (I have seen several spell corrections on english-WP, when it was actually correct but another country variety). Norwegian "Nynorsk" has its own wiki, since it is standardised and has a much different spelling, although spoken it is just a dialect of Norwegian (same country, and similar vocabulary). Summary: Start Montenegrin if it has its own established written language. It seems not. en:User:BIL 85.119.130.132 14:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Support
  • Montenegrin is considered the main language of Montenegro by many Montenegrins in Montenegro, and many Montenegrins consider this as their primary language even though some people, even Serbs, consider this language as a dialect of Serbian. The Montenegrin language is spoken with an Ijekavian-Shtokavian dialect.
  • Boris Malagurski said that there are just 3 or 4 words different words from Serbian. I see that two words different just by loking en:Template:User_sr-4 and en:Template:User_cg-4. So, what are the other 2 ;)?
Lemme jsut say here that the userboxes are simply phrased differently. This is also done on product packaging with Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian to make the text purposely different. --Estavisti 16:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Montenegrin template uses synonim "zboriti" instead of "govoriti", but in reality "zboriti" is much less used in Montenegro. [1] vs [2]. Nikola 05:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Funny, on your user page, Ante Perkovic, you say you speak Serbian and Montengerin equally well:)) C-c-c-c
You'll be surprised how much more can you understand a speaker from Šumadija then a say, Niš-speaker. HRE
  • My opinion is that absolutely every country must have its own language. Infact, bosnian, serbian and croatian r very similar languages too. That is the reason more why i support montenegrin (crnogorski) language. that is also case in wikipedia. Opponents of this question really think that montenegrin people who supported the independence will edit wikipedia in serbian??? As, bormalagurski said, serb and montenegrin differ in few words. But i dont think montenegrin people would like to expand something serbian. Am i right? West Brom 4ever

P.S. I am from Croatia, so i wrote this from NPOV.

Well, every country should have its own language, I agree - but not every does, and we can't change taht on an Encyclopedia, arguing that. ;) HRE
Wasn't Croatia at a war with Serbia recently? So, when it comes to Serbian-Montenegrin affairs, you consider yourself NPOV? I highly doubt it. Montenegrin is not officially a language, when it is, we can talk about Montenegrin Wikipedia, but still, 3 words is not worth the trouble... --Rakija 18:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But, what does that have to do with anything? HRE
I also noticed that page, but I think you forgot to mention that it's the page of the government of Milo Djukanovic, the pro-independence leader of Montenegro. The official website of the government of Montenegro, approved by the international community (unlike the Milo Djukanovic one) is listed below, and it says that Serbian is the official language. Milo's government claims that the official language of Montenegro is Montenegrin, even though in the constitution of Montenegro it says that Serbian is the official language. Who are we going to trust, the constitution, or the website? --Rakija 18:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A language does not have to be in the constitution in order for it to exist. For example, in Brazil you have many Indian languages that are not listed in the constitution, but nevertheless exist and are not codified. Similarly, in Montenegro almost a quarter of the population speak Montenegrin, like it or not. The constitution of Serbia says that Kosovo is part of Serbia, but look closer and what do you see? Real life is not inside a constitution. Furthermore, the constitution is not a tool for recognizing languages, it only sets an official language.--Montenegrins 13:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thats where you're wrong. Montenegrins claim that they're language is different from Serbian, but they admit that there are no more than 3 words that are different, words that can ALSO be used in Serbian (which makes you think doesn't it). Also, Montenegrin is not internationally recognized by any country in the world, it is not even in the constitution of Montenegro, therefore Montenegrin is not recognized by Montenegro. If you want to talk about looking closer at things, look who voted to support the Montenegrin Wikipedia - mostly Albanians and Croats. Do you honestly think they're doing this for their love of Montenegro, or maybe their hate of Serbs, the people that they were at war with only a few years ago. Seriously, grow up. --Boris Malagurski 02:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Montenegrin is different from Serbian. Why?, because Serbian comes in two varieties, Ijekavian and Ekavian, unlike Montenegrin, which comes in one variety, Ijekavian. On Serbian Wikipedia, it always starts in Cyrillic and I was told to post on only Cyrillic. Also, basically, whenever i click the latinized Ijekavian script, the article comes up in latin script but still in ekavian. So, since Montenegrin is only Ijekavian, it would be easier to see it in both cyrillic and latin. Besides, Montenegro is changing its constitution, so it is very likely that Montenegrin will become the official language of Montenegro. CrnaGora 19:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nidžo, before you comment, read the entire conversation, Oppose comments and Support comments alike. By the end of the year, Serbian Wikipedia will have the Ijekavian-Ekavian transformation program up and running, and it would be better to turn your efforts on helping with that, instead of starting a new Wikipedia, which will take years to achieve what we'll do in months. Serbian Wikipedia at the moment allows you to see a text in cyrillic and latin, and will, by the end of the year, have Ijekavian as well as Ekavian dialects at the click of a button. Doesn't that sound more simple that starting a new Wikipedia so you can change 3 words that probably occur in only about a 100 articles? The reason you're giving is not a valid one, as Serbian Wikipedia has allowed maximum flexibility and freedom for Ijekavian-speaking people (also, the cyrillic-posting policy has changed, you can now post on latin too :-)) --Boris Malagurski 00:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok if you say that Boris, well then, how is sr.wikipedia supposed to format ekavian text into ijekavian and vice-versa? Tried that, doesn't even work. Also, why was I told that I'm only allowed to post articles in cyrillic? Explain that. CrnaGora 05:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I will gladly explain your concerns. The official policy of the Serbian Wikipedia was to post articles in cyrillic untill the "cyrillic to latin and vice versa" program was introduced early this year. Now, users can choose which language they want to view, and we didn't want to make a mess of cyrillic and latin articles before we could allow users to view them in one particular alphabet. Now, you can post in latin as well as cyrillic, ekavian, as well es ijekavian. The "ekavian to ijekavian and vice versa" program has been set-up, but still doesn't work, because we are in the process of making a list of all the words that differ (reka into rijeka, pesma into pjesma), and when the list is finished (probably by the end of the year), all articles will have the option of viewing them in either of the dialects at the click of the mouse. We have worked a lot on it, and are very proud of our achievements so far, and hope that everything will go well for the second part of the program. Convinced, CrnaGora? --Boris Malagurski 05:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How can I be convinced? I was on Serbian Wikipedia today (May 29th) and yet none of the articles I visited had ijekavian words, all ekavian. Besides Boris, stop trying to convince me, it's just a waste of time. I will never be convinced. Besides, 3 words is enough for a language to differ. Anyways, Montenegro used to have its own different language, until the Serbs changed it. So, I'm never going to be convinced. Besides, I believe that the Montenegrin language will become a reality. CrnaGora 22:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not trying to convince you, I don't really care what you think, I'm just stating that Montenegrin, regardless of wheter it should or should not be a language, is currently --Boris Malagurski 04:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? Montenegrin people have right to use their own language in Wikipedia like Croatians, Bosnians and Serbians do. In former Yugoslavia is used to say 'One state, one language'. The Montenegrin Constitution will be changed and the official language will be Montenegrin without doubt. That is a reason for the creation of the Crnogorska Wikipedia! --Skafa 04 Jun 2006
You people just don't get it, do you... Sure, they have a right to have their own language. But, unlike Croatian, Bosniak and Serb languages, which are internationally recognized, the Montenegrin language is not internationally recognized.
Hence, this is not a discussion on whether Montenegrin should be an official language, the official Constitution of Montenegro says it isn't. We are discussing here on whether we should create a Wikipedia for an unofficial language, declared unofficial even by Montenegro itself. It's not about who deserves what language, I personally believe that they have the right to speak which ever language they want. The fact is that Montenegro delclared Serbian as the official language. What else is there to say? The next person that writes "Montenegrins deserve to have their own language" or "they have the right to speak whatever language they want" is really really stupid, because that is not what we are debating.
When the country of Montenegro says "Montenegrin is our official language" and when the international community says "OK", then I will nominate the creation of the Montenegrin Wikipedia. End of discussion. --Boris Malagurski21:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I want to make clear that I AM NOT AGAINST SERBS AND NOT TO THE PART OF MONTENEGRINS. I understand the mood and the delusion of the Serbs but now Montenegro is independent and if it is independent it will (probably 100%) declare CRNOGORSKI official language of Montenegro and nobody can say that Montenegrin is not a language, because it would have been declared official language of a sovereign state and all the state which will communicate with Montenegro in the language of that country will use MONTENEGRIN. Germany can not say 'we write to Montenegro in Serbian because we think Montenegrin is not a language!' This is the truth and not stupidity... OK, we can wait, but this problem will come back in 1 or 2 months when Montenegro will decide for the new constitution! Remember that today there are people who say Croatian nor Serbian nor Bosnian are a language while Serbo-Croatian is a language. But Serbo-Croatian is not recognized by Croatia nor Serbia nor Bosnia-Herzegovina and nor Montenegro. But a Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia has been created. I think the problem here is more political than practical. The NEW website of Montenegrin government use 'CRNOGORSKI' and not 'SRPSKI' [3]... Skafa
Skafa, we wen't over this. If and when they do proclaim Montenegrin to be official, and if and when the world declares it legal, then the creation of cg wiki WILL BE LEGAL. --Boris Malagurski 04:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone remember what happened to the Moldavian wikipedia? ;-) en: User: Asterion 22:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Recently the Cantonese wikipedia (zh-yue:) was opened. Ok I am Chinese, but from what I read here the difference between Serbian and Montenegrin is comparable to the difference between written standard Chinese and Cantonese. basically about three words. The Cantonese wikipedia is written in the way people speak, no serious people write that way (except people with political agenda, or colloquial things like chat). If we are going to open a WP for a language/dialect that is not meant to be written in, we might as well open one for Montenegrin. On this page I see there is support for a Singlish WP.. which is a slang that makes you look uneducated in formal circles. In a few years time I bet tehre will be 10 varieties of English WPs, including stuff like hiphop, maybe even 1337. There are already like 30 varieties of basically the same European languages, might as well add one more. If China was not one country there would be 50 Chinese wikipedias too. 203.218.136.155 18:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is incorrect, as Cantonese differs from Mandarin more than any of the South Slavic languages do from each other (yes, that is including Macedonian and Bulgarian into the fold). There is almost zero mutual intelligibility between spoken Mandarin and Cantonese, in both formal and informal registers. Unlike with the Serbo-Croatian "languages", there are significant differences in grammar between Chinese languages. The fact that the Chinese system of characters allows Standard Written Chinese (based on Mandarin) to be pronounced in any Chinese language does not make Cantonese and Mandarin "the same". Have you even read the [zh-yue.wikipedia.org Cantonese Wikipedia]?----Usuario 00:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Since when can unregistered users vote? --Boris Malagurski 04:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, Cantonese is very much a language in its own right. It has its own set of distinct dialects. Even though written Cantonese mostly uses standard Chinese characters, a character-reading non-speaker (such as myself) still finds it difficult if not impossible to comprehend. Spoken Cantonese is almost entirely unintelligible to other Sinitic speakers. A-giâu 16:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My argument above is that if "languages" like Montenegrin, Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian can get their own wikipedias, then Chinese languages such as Min Dong, Min Nan, Wu, Gan, and Hakka should get their own, without question. Consider that these South Slav dialects are so similar to each other that there is 90+% comprehension between speakers. Some of these people even defend their unscientific nationalist claims that these dialects are different languages based on the fact that the word for "bread" is different in the other dialect! This whereas a monolingual Mandarin speaker would have no chance understanding a Min-Dong or Wu-speaker at all, even if they spoke slowly and did not use slang. There are simply too many lexical, grammatical, and phonological differences. Examples of grammatical differences go from the existence/lack of verbal aspects, to different word order and sentence-final particles, etymologically-unrelated personal pronouns, demonstratives, copula, negations, and interrogative pronouns. --Usuario 00:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Montenegro's constiution was written and adopted on 12 October 1992, during the wars in the former Yugoslavia and the rule of Slobodan Milosevic in Belgrade and it excluded more than 22% of citizens who speak Montenegrin language. The Montenegrin leadership back then was totally servile to the idea of Greater Serbia and attempted to repress any idea of the separate Montenegrin identity and language, in a bid to prevent a backlash from Milosevic who was well known for his good neighbourly relations with former Yugoslav republics. Thankfully this has changed. The only official parameter is the FULLY DEMOCRATIC AND TRANSPARENT 2003 census in which 22% of all citizens FREELY declared, for the first time their language. This is official - so we do not have the right to ignore reality. Montenegrins 12:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"it excluded more than 22% of citizens who speak Montenegrin language", this is just a pure lie, anyone can check by looking at the constitution. "The Montenegrin leadership back then was totally servile to the idea of Greater Serbia and attempted to repress any idea of the separate Montenegrin identity and language", but wait, wasn't the Montenegrin leadership elected by the people of Montenegro? So, is it Milosevic's fault now? I don't think so. On a census, I can declare that I speak the Vojvodinic language, because I lived in Vojvodina, Serbia, but that doesn't make "my language" official. Untill a language is accepted by the constitution of the country where the people supposedly speak it AND the international comunity, you simply have no proof it exists. Good luck finding it. --Boris Malagurski 21:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If somebody speaks Montenegrin (politically correct: thinks its mothertongue is Montenegrin) can create the test wikipedia in Montenegrin! Skafa

The fact of the matter is that CrnaGora who nominated this whole thing doesn't really speak "Montenegrin" at all. He lives in North America, and can barely write a sentence without 10 grammar mistakes. This is all about politics, and CrnaGora's hatred of all Serbs (he even erased my vote, claiming I have left the Wikipedia foundation, which is a white lie, because I only left en wiki and nothing else. He kept reffering to me as his friend and even brother, in an attempt to show that he doesn't hate Serbs, but this move clearly shows the truth). And Montenegrin is not a language, it simply isn't. The proof is there, and it doesn't matter wether it SHOULD be a language, because it isn't, and in Wikipedia, facts and references matter. Thank you. --Boris Malagurski 19:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

""Support""--Mauricio Maluff 16:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I am a native Montenegrin speaker. Do you Serbs understand Gorski Vijenac? Somehow I don't think so...Croats, perhaps, Serbs, in your dreams! That is a 100 page book, not three words, my friends. You all know, if you want to know, that Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins and even Serbs, speak ONE language. We all understand each other as Aussies understand Americans and vice versa. We could not agree on the NAME. The best analogy is what happened with Scandinavian Language(s). Danes, Norvegians and Swedes all call the same language with their nation's names. So, if Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks can do it, there is no reason Montenegrins cannot. Enough said.--Momisan 20:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And I am a native Serbian speaker and somehow I do understand "Gorski vijenac" very well. Have you, Momisan, read it? If you had, you would know that it begins with "Posveta prahu oca Srbina". Beside, what would you do with a Wikipedia? The language is not standardized yet; when you just try write a single sentence in it, you can't be sure is it actually correct! You don't know whether to write in literary Montenegrin (which is actually Serbian ijekavski, as it is said in the constitution of Montenegro, and which is already quite much used and is welcomed at Serbian Wikipedia) or in spoken Montenegrin (which is not standardized at all). Why don't you open a test Wikipedia in Incubator? I am eager to see that linguistical non-sense of yours. Našta li će to ličiti! Sad se vjerovatno svi Petrovići-Njegoši prevrću u grobu! --George D. Bozovic 00:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Djordje its not "Posveta prahu oca Srbina" its a "Posveta prahu oca Srbije" who is actualy Montenegrian. You dont know to much about "Gorski vijenac"--Egoand_his_own
  • Why opposers are making a political question about Montenegrin? There is allways a fact thare is some peaple who be glad to make wikipedia even bigger under their lunguage. I don't see a reasn to push out Montenegrins. Wikipedia is not Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, English, Franch etc. - wikipedia is all that linguage at once. --OutLook
  • This is obvious a political issue and political rhetoric from “grand Serbia” ideology. Montenegro is 1000 years old State who has much to offer to the Wikipedia in historical and cultural aspect as one of oldest countries in Europe who is currently out of sight and this initiative can give Montenegro a chance to participate in World biggest encyclopedia."--Egoand_his_own 16:50, 06 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is not about countries. It's about the languages. Can you find separate American English and British English Wikipedias? Plus, English Wikipedia interface is American English only, while Serbian Wikipedia offers both Cyrillic and Latin, Ekavian and Ijekavian. Montenegrins are welcomed in Serbian Wikipedia, and free to write in their everyday tongue. Nevertheless, like I already said, I am actually not against Montenegrin Wikipedia, but not now, not at this stage of development. The current literary language of Montenegro is entirely identical with common Serbian Ijekavian, with only two official differences (sjutra and nijesam) and one unofficial (kisjelo). When Montenegrin language becomes officially proclaimed (it is not yet) and when it gets standardized (oh, that's surely not done yet), then you can open a Wikipedia. Or start a test one, right now! I know and you know that you can't do it, because you're asking a Wikipedia in a non-standardized languge... :p At this moment it's impossible to write in "Montenegrin", isn't it? --George D. Bozovic 20:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • George, your knowledge of non-serbs cultures is even worse then the knowledge about "Gorski vijenac" or English language (this is my favorite: and free to write in their everyday tongue--George D. Bozovic) :) This is not mether of Montenegrin egocentric propagation, which you think it is. sr.wikipedia.org is totaly instrumentalised by "El grande Serb's" ideas and, as such like, it's closed for any facts which is not "Serb's facts". Just like as you are, in your comments. --OutLook 21:35, 21. September 2006 (UTC)
        • That is not true. Serbian Wikipedia is much more NPOV than, for example, Croatian, Bosnian or Albanian Wikipedias. Perhaps I have no idea about English language and grammar, but do you speak Serbian? If you don't, how can you know that Serbian Wikipedia is totaly instrumentalised by "El grande Serb's" ideas? And do you speak Montenegrin? I have said many times by now that I am generally not against Montenegrin Wikipedia. The language is just not standardized yet. You cannot write in a non-standardized language. I have only tried to give the proponents of Montenegrin Wikipedia an advice to wait until their linguists (if any) finally standardize Montenegrin language. And if you find closeness for any facts which is not "Serb's facts" in this, then the problem is with you, not with me or the Serbian Wikipedia. --George D. Bozovic 12:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  • --Fratele lui Bonaparte, il cunosti? 12:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Montenegrin is not the official language of any country, not even Montenegro, as can be seen from the "srpski" (Serbian language) word at the bottom of the official government website here. There is even a discussion on whether the article "Montenegrin language" should be moved to "Montenegrin dialect" on English Wikipedia. It is a dialect, with only 3 or 4 words different from Serbian. The Serbian Wikipedia has recently introduced a system where both ekavian and ijekavian dialects can be used on it, and this makes the Montenegrin Wikipedia obsolete, because it would basically be copied from the Serbian Wikipedia, with a change of only 3 or 4 words. The Serbian Wikipedia also tolerates those 3 or 4 words, as they are sometimes used in Serbian as well. Unlike the Croatian Wikipedia, where Croatian is much different from Serbian, or Bosnian, which is a mixture of the two, Montenegrin is absolutly not a separate language (at least not yet), not recognized internationally, and not fit for Wikipedia. --Boris Malagurski 05:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia is not the place for creating new language. Its goal is to truly describe the reality. As Montenegrin is not recognized as language yet, has no ISO code (not even three letter code) and this is not the place to create it. I am happy for Montenegro infependence, but it doesn't mean montenegrin dialect of serbian language became full-value language over night. --Zirland 05:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Montenegrin linguists said that Montenegrin language differs from Serbian in EXACTLY THREE WORDS.. If they really want their Wikipedia, maybe they should get it... but I think that it would be a too great waste of resources. -- Obradovic Goran 07:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've got plenty of sympathy for your beautiful country - but not for this unnecessary request. Wikipedia is about information, not about politics. --ARBE0 08:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Long live Montenegro! They deserve all the best, and I wish them luck in their newly formed state. However, there are many countries in the world that use languages that are not "original" (Brazil, Austria,...), and I can't understand why would Montenegro want a dialect to be declared a language, when they have a perfectly good language already - Serbian. Nevertheless, my opinion doesn't matter, but the UN and the international comunity's opinion does, and they are clear on the issue - there is no Montenegrin language. --Rakija 18:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you speak any of Yugoslav(because that should have been the ONLY name if there was any sanity) languages?. Have you ever heard Montenegrin tongue? If you responded 'yes' on both, I wouldn't have to continue at all, it would have been self evident. The sorry fact is that there are less than half a million people who speak Montenegrin, and if you have met them outside their country, they would probably have spoken like their hosts (Croats, Serbs or Bosniaks). It is , however, EXTREMELY hard for a Serb to start to speak Montenegrin dialect, it is that different. The Serbs are repeating their lies, some might believe them because there are not many Montenegrins to opose them. I personaly insist on the term "Montenegrin" exactly because Serbs are trying so hard to deny something that cannot be denied. --Momisan10:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see clear reasons for creating another Wikipedia based on "ethnic" and "nacionalist" criteria and not on real language structure. I no more understend, what the concept "language" means on former Yugoslav region? People is going to behave out of reason including so-called linguists and language experts of that ethnicities. --Slaven Kosanovic 20:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd also like to add that the only person that voted Support and speaks this so called "Montenegrin" is CrnaGora, all the others are Croats and Albanians, who clearly won't contribute to the "Montenegrin Wikipedia" if created, and this proves that this has nothing to do with languages, but rather with politics, since Serbs were at war with Croats and Albanians recently. --Boris Malagurski 01:01, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a proposal calling for a fifth Wikipedia in what is essentially Serbo-Croatian language. What's more, this is a "language" which even the minority who declare to speak it see as being identical to Serbian and its naming is seen as an expression of political choice (namely independence of Montenegro). Should this wasteful attitude toward Wikimedia resources continue, soon enough every political party, NGO and frustrated quasi-linguist within Serbian lignuistic area will have its own Wikipedia paid for by contributions of unsuspecting Joe. (N.B. 1. While the official naming convention remains irrelevant, the official language in Montenegro is Serbian as per its constitution. 2. USA has declared its independence from England in 1776.) --Dzordzm 04:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Montenegrin is as of now a bunch of dialects, with a literary written form being identical to Serbian (the same as the literary language of "Austrian" or "Swiss German" is just plain standard German). It might change in the future, but until then, a separate wiki would be useless. rado 21:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I think that Montenegrin Wikipedia should exist (if Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian exist; and even Serbo-Croatian is reopened (?!)), there is only one person on Wikipedia who consider this language as his native (Crna Gora). All others who voted for opening Montenegrin Wikipedia are Croatian Wikipedians (and me, a Serbian Wikipedian). So, I would like to see five or more Wikipedians who are native speakers of Montenegrin before this Wikipedia would be opened. Until that, User:CrnaGora and others can work on Montenegrin Wikipedia here, on Serbo-Croatian, Serbian or Croatian Wikipedias. --Millosh 13:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, CrnaGora can't talk Monetengrin (Bosnian, Croatian of Serbian) perfect. Imagine new Wikipedia whit all these gramatical mistakes. --Pokrajac 11:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • In few weeks I would declare my own language, and possibly request one Wikipedia for my self. Should people here support my rights to have one? ;)--Slaven Kosanovic 09:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose we have four wikis in essentially the same language, Servocroatic, that seems enough to me. One wiki for all, or perhaps two, one for every script, would be the best solution, if you use a tolerant norm which allows all national variants. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 13:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose: Montenegrins are free to submit articles on the Ijekav - Serbian wikipedia, as Montenegrin language doesn't exist.
  • Strong oppose: You could borrow from the Serbian articles letter for letter and nobody would notice. What's next, Australian? Texan? Female?--58.105.198.38 09:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose: We've seen such creation of artificial language also in other parts of Europe. --Brasoveanul 12:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since everybody is speaking about some three words that are the only difference between Serbian and Montenegrin, can you please name them? I can remember only two (sjutra and nijesam), but I don't know what is the third one. --George D. Bozovic 01:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • You are welcome to have a look at Montenegrin cuisine page and count the differences for yourself. Please, be honest and report your findings back here. Regards.--Momisan 11:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, I haven't found any differences from Serbian there, except for several dialectal phrases, which appear in many other Serbian dialects as well, and except for kiśelo, which obviously threats e here as yat, while in litteral Serbian Ijekavski, Bosnian and Croatian it is kiselo, with no yat here. I believe this is the third difference? Yeah, I expected something bigger... :p --George D. Bozovic 20:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, I must say I am a bit dissapointed, I expected more open mind than that. I you don't WANT to see it, noone can probably convince you otherwise. Montenegrin Wikipedia is on the way anyway. Regards, ---Momisan 12:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Generally, I am not against a Montenegrin Wikipedia. But not at this fase of Montenegrin language development. The language is not standardized yet on a base of the people's speech ("narodni jezik"). The current literal language used in Monetengro is nothing but ijekavski Serbian with two differences (not even three): sjutra and nijesam (and occasionaly kisjelo, too). Perhaps Montenegrin Wikipedia is on the way, but I recommend you to wait until your linguists finally create that long expected language of yours (e.g. mix up the dialects together :p). --George D. Bozovic 18:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Native speakers

May somone list here native speakers of Montenegrin who are active Wikipedians? --Millosh 15:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please, use the list for listing yourself. Use comments for comments. The intention of this list is not to say that there are too small native speakers of Montenegrin, but to say that there is enough (5 should be OK) speakers of Montenegrin. On English Wikipedia I saw at least two active Montenegrins which claim that Montenegrin language is their native language. --Millosh 13:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of native speakers
  1. CrnaGora
  2. Momisan
  3. Dzemper
Comments about native speakers
Oh no Millosh you don't understand. How could they be active - all existing Wikipedias were in foreign languages. For example the proposer - he had so much trouble writing in the "foreign" Serbian language. LOL --Dzordzm 02:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would be pleased with any native speakers at all. Currently there is only one, and it is not even clear whether is he a Montenegrin at all. --George D. Bozovic 20:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Some users have speculated that CrnaGora is Albanian and that he or she doesn't actually speak Montenegrin. I'm sorry to bother you, CrnaGora, but can you, please, write something to prove that you are a native speaker? For example, can you write several lines about, let's say, your family and your origins? Montenegrins are famous as a people who take care about their ancestry very much. Each family has a legend about how its family name was created. So, what about your family, CrnaGora? If you choose to share you surname, than you can most easily prove that you are not Albanian. --George D. Bozovic 16:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Montenegrin&oldid=450898"