Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
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LDS Church Membership history
I have been too lazy/busy/cheap to get an LDS Church Almanac, but I'd like to prepare a historical graph of membership trends for Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Does anybody have a table of membership numbers from 1830 to now in at least 10 year increments, and preferably annual they could give me? Tom Haws 19:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- You could try www.adherents.com. They might have something. The Jade Knight 17:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm working on something at Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Membership history Tom Haws 22:18, 15 February 2006 (UTC) You asked for it. Here you go! http://www.geocities.com/johnwiltbank/growth.gif http://www.geocities.com/johnwiltbank/growth.jpg http://www.geocities.com/johnwiltbank/ChurchStats.xls http://www.geocities.com/johnwiltbank/ldsdata.txt The above do not yet incorporate the statistical data released yesterday. FYI, this data was: 2701 stakes, 341 missions, 643 districts, 27,087 wards, 12,560,869 membership, 93150 children of record, 243,108 converts, 52,060 full-time missionaries. Novel-Technology 07:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
New section?
The membership paragraph in the introduction seems excessive for an intro to me. Perhaps we could give a membership section (I'm thinking between Name of the Church and Major Beliefs)? This way, we could add in stuff like membership history, et al. Suggestions?
By the way, if no one comments on it to object, I'll probably take the liberty of doing it myself - that introduction is way too long. --Trevdna 23:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
"It is the fourth largest religion in the United States."
What is the source for that, please? That seems preposterous and not in line with such other sources such as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
<insert flame war here> <--- kidding btw ;)
- I'm guessing that's justified by lumping all the non-Mormon Christians together, so the order of adherents in the US would be something like 1. Christianity 2. Judaism 3. <something else> 4. Mormons. I don't know where that leaves the people who spent so much time on Wikipedia arguing that Mormons should be included in Christianty, but that looks like how they are thinking. DJ Clayworth 19:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
No flame war needed - easily defendable - it is not referring to religion branches, but religion bodies. The source is Adherents.com: http://adherents.com/rel_USA.html#bodies, taken from The 2005 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches. It is actually referring to religious bodies - as opposed to religions - here's the top ten:
1. Roman Catholic Church: 67.2 million. 2. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.4 million. 3. United Methodist Church: 8.2 million. 4. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: 5.5 million. 5. Church of God in Christ: 5.4 million. 6. National Baptist Convention USA: 5 million. 7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America: 4.9 million. 8. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million. 9. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 3.2 million. 10. Assemblies of God: 2.7 million.
Perhaps a clarification should be added that the church is the fourth largest denomination in the USA. DJ Clayworth, interesting comments, but this is not the place to make the argument if Mormon are Christians - that can be fought at Mormonism and Christianity as we all have in the past. Glad to see you around Mormon articles again, hope to see more of you around this corner of the Wiki. Hope this helps. -Visorstuff 20:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Verifiable history vs. statements of belief
Consider the "History" section.
Does this statement really belong there?
"Over time, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery received the priesthood and its keys lost to the earth from resurrected beings who held the authority anciently, including John the Baptist (May 15, 1829, Aaronic Priesthood), the apostles Peter, James and John (May or June 1829, Melchizidek Priesthood), and the ancient prophet Elijah (April 3, 1836). These priesthoods brought with them the restoration of the authority to perform baptism and other ordinances."
Seems to me that needs to be qualified with a HUGE "Church members believe" and put in the doctrine section; it's clearly not an uncomplicated statement of historical fact in the same way that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was officially organized by Joseph Smith, Jr. and five associates on 6 April 1830, in Fayette, New York" is. Thparkth 20:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think the entire section could be preceeded by a statement something like "The following is a summary of the major events recorded with church historical records. Church members believe these events to be true, while some non-members may discount portions of this history.". It certainly is part of the history of the Church, even though non-Mormons would tend to dispute it. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 21:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- When you have a topic about a religion do you really think there need to have constant reminders that the subject is about a religion. In the eyes of some all religion is mythology and it is most certainly about issues of faith. I tend to resist qualifiers to all religious articles such as purported, they say, or they believe. It is redundant to constantly remind the reader that the topic is a religious topic, an issue of faith. As a topic of faith some believe it and some don't. This is not simply germaine to the Mormon faith, but all faiths. When we bend over so far to accomodate those of different/opposing faiths, we very easily turn into leaving that ever so slight tinge of "this is really a load of crap, but these Mormons believe it". A qualifier that makes sense is Church History if one wishes to emphasize that it is a topic of faith, but I think you are underestimating readers. Storm Rider 00:43, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- Be that as it may Story Rider, a statement about Oliver Cowdery receiving mystical powers from people who had been dead for more than a thousand years is clearly a faith statement, and not a historical statement. It either needs to be explicitly qualified, or moved into "major beliefs". Having that kind of statement unqualified and unquestioned in the "history" section isn't going to make anyone beleive it's a brute fact of history, but it certainly gives the impression that the article is not NPOV but rather is biased towards acceptance of LDS beliefs. I don't happen to think that's the intention; I think this paragraph just ended up in the wrong section. I'm going to add a qualifying statement to it; feel free to revert if you feel the urge :) Thparkth 01:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- How can it not be verifiable. 1) It is attested to by more than just one person, 2) it is documented. Trödel•talk 12:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- Be that as it may Story Rider, a statement about Oliver Cowdery receiving mystical powers from people who had been dead for more than a thousand years is clearly a faith statement, and not a historical statement. It either needs to be explicitly qualified, or moved into "major beliefs". Having that kind of statement unqualified and unquestioned in the "history" section isn't going to make anyone beleive it's a brute fact of history, but it certainly gives the impression that the article is not NPOV but rather is biased towards acceptance of LDS beliefs. I don't happen to think that's the intention; I think this paragraph just ended up in the wrong section. I'm going to add a qualifying statement to it; feel free to revert if you feel the urge :) Thparkth 01:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- I think one has to be careful with both verification, and with tone here. Ideally we should present such things in the context of what various people report as having been the case, with some indication where it's disputed or controversial, without it drifting into "load of crap" territory. If a whole section is clearly designated as a description of Mormon belief, that's fair enough, but a history section should be somewhat careful about recording the day-to-day interwoven too tightly with matters of faith. If something's not controversial as such, but is essentially just a question of religious belief, I'd favour formulations like such-and-such "being said to have happened", as opposed to "have happened" on the one hand, or X, Y and Z say it happened, while P, Q, and R say they're full of it, on the other. Alai 23:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
That huge "Major Beliefs" section
It's too big! And full of stuff like "Lay clergy has a strong tradition in the church, as area and local authorities are unpaid and continue in their normal occupations while serving in leadership positions" which is interesting, true, relevent, but nothing to do with "major beliefs". Maybe the section could be broken up? Thparkth 20:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- We have talked about this, do you have any new (and welcome!) suggestions?-The Scurvy Eye 22:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- We *could* break it up into the traditional theological concerns like christology, eschatology etc... but maybe not too accessible to the lay reader. Thparkth 02:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Seminary
Two things stuck out in the brief seminary section to me that needed verification:
- 1. Attendance at Seminary is voluntary, although this does help when applying to Brigham Young University. I've heard this before, and am fairly certain that it's true, but I'd imagine it's an advantage that applies across the board to Church-run universities. Does anyone know more about this that they could add in?
- 2. Seminary graduation aides some missionaries in obtaining visas to a few foreign countires. This one sounds like more of a stretch. While I can imagine that it may provide some small advantage, should a consulate take the time to extensively investigate a visa applicant's character, I doubt that there's objective proof of a consistent pattern of LDS seminary grads receiving visas more often than non-seminary grads. Without something to back it up, this content probably needs to go. Tijuana Brass 17:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- As I understand it some countries require that missionaries must have some degree of training to be allowed in...graduating from seminary meets their requirements. As far as and BYU schools, if it helps at one, it helps at all of them. Storm Rider 18:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
When I applied at BYU, the fact that I had not graduated from seminary didn't hurt my admission, but it did cause me to get a half-Benson scholarship rather than a full Benson scholarship. I don't think that either of these statements belong in the article if they can't be verified by some official word from BYU or an actual case of a missionary who either got a visa because of his seminary attendance or was denied because of the lack thereof. I don't think "I've heard that it's true" meets any encyclopedic standard. Aranhamo 00:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the reference to obtaining visas, being totally without proof (I think MTC training would far overshadow any supposed benefit of seminary as "training"). Also removed the time release reference, which would be confusing for non-members to read, I believe. Tijuana Brass 03:07, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Daughters of Perdition
"There is debate within the church as to whether or not a female is a capable of committing the sins necessitating inheritance of a kingdom without glory."
What? I've been a member of the Church my whole life and have never heard of any debate about this. I've never come across any doctrine that says that women are not capable of the same sin/goodness as men. —This unsigned comment was added by 157.127.124.134 (talk • contribs) .
- Yup. here are a couple of statements by GAs on the matter as quoted on a number of web sites:
- Nov 29,1893 - Presidents Wilford Woodruff and George Q Cannon meet with three apostles and James E. Talmage: "That there will also be daughters of Perdition there is no doubt in the minds of the brethren."
- Mar 26,1903 - Joseph F. Smith tells apostles "there would be no daughters of perdition" in final judgement.
- You can also find both references in The Mormon Hierarchy - Extenions of Power, D. Michael Quinn, Appendix V. I'm not a fan of Quinn, as his research is good, but his conclusions I find stretching and unsupportable.
- You may also want to read the sections about "Perdition" in the Miracle of Foregiveness and in Mormon Doctrine for context. In addition, if you are a temple-attending Mormon, you may want to discuss what is different between the mens and womens initatory ordinances with a member of the temple presidency.
- To be a son of perdition, you must have a "sure knowledge." You have to recieve certain ordinances and see certain things and then turn and fight against the truth. You must have that sure knowledge, have gone through the temple, and hold the priesthood (this is the debatable aspect - what constitutes "holding" priesthood authority). I'm not sure who all qualifies for this, but not many who are alive can qualify to become one.
- One of the attributes of those who receieve telestial glory are those who murder - both spiritually and physically. Therefore, most anti-Mormon activists who are former members of the church who fight against Mormonism, probably do not qualify. Undoubtedly, some may, but the vast majority will be considered spiritual "murderers" and end up in the TLK. Most discussion on the topic is speculative in any case - it mostly has become a cultural doctrine that is not specified in the scriptures. Hope this helps. -Visorstuff 00:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- The above post was mine, before I made an account. I had seen some of the items that you mentioned before, but I hadn't really considered it a "debate within the Church". I think I would come down on the side of there being daughters of perdition, but I don't think that this is a big enough "debate" to be included in the article. It's also not a big enough deal to worry about, so I don't think it needs to be removed. Interesting though. Thanks. Aranhamo 02:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Agree this issue is totally not notable in the context of a general topic article such as this. Trödel 12:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- I am totally against this trivia making it into the general article. While someone may have made a statement about his own personal unsurety on a speculative topic more than 100 years ago, that does not mean there is a debate within the church as to the answer--and as many people have argued here, no one has ever heard of the issue, so it's not really an "issue." So I am yet another returned missionary, went to BYU, taught seminary (paid, in Provo), still live in Orem, and have been a member of the church for 30 years; who has never heard of this argument. It is not "cultural doctrine" except in perhaps remote enough circles that this discussion would be incomplete without discussing the subregions where said "cultural doctrine" exists. --Mrcolj 13:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
- Agree this issue is totally not notable in the context of a general topic article such as this. Trödel 12:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- The above post was mine, before I made an account. I had seen some of the items that you mentioned before, but I hadn't really considered it a "debate within the Church". I think I would come down on the side of there being daughters of perdition, but I don't think that this is a big enough "debate" to be included in the article. It's also not a big enough deal to worry about, so I don't think it needs to be removed. Interesting though. Thanks. Aranhamo 02:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Spam defense
Re-adding a link I added a few days ago, which was removed as "spam." I think I'd have to be affliated with the website in someway for it to be spam. Instead, I simply find it to be an informitive and well written website. Please discuss here if you want to try to remove again. ~~Sean Logopolys
"Widely known for"... garments
While garments is a issue peculiar to few religions, is it well-known enough to be on the list of what Mormons are "widely known for?" I mean, if you ask people what they know Mormons for, every thing on that list would get 5x the response rate of garments, no? While the non-LDS editors of this topic surely are a bit more sophisticated as to the topic than the general public, I've heard enough stories of people saying they hadn't heard of garments until they had been members for quite a while that I can't believe it's what Mormons are "known for." -Mrcolj 13:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
- C.S. Lewis refers to "funny underwear" in Prince Caspian, and I recently heard a comedy sketch that refered to Mormon underwear, so at least some people think they are known well enough that people would understand the reference. When I was first investigating the church, my sister and brother in law had both heard about garments, even though they knew little else about the church (including how to pronounce Moroni.) wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 16:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
- I've read Prince Caspian a few times and never really noticed that comment by Lewis. Is there any proof that it is in reference to Mormonism? I don't think most people are aware of our use of garments, but it's probably well enough known that it could be included. I would only hope that the subject is treated respectfully, as the subject is quite sacred to Mormons. Aranhamo 21:34, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it isn't in Prince Caspian, it's in The Voyage of the Dawn Treander at the very beginning where C.S. Lewis is describing the Aunt and Uncle. It's very subtle. —This unsigned comment was added by 158.91.215.174 (talk • contribs) .
- While I have very ocassionally had people ask me about them, I still don't think it's a common enough concern to justify the term "what they're known for." And those who study the topic know that the clergy of most religions throughout history wear some sort of sacred underclothing, including those of most christian religions. Mormons just don't believe in clergy... -Mrcolj 20:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Mormons do believe in clergy. What distinguishes them is that they have a lay clergy, at least for males above a certain age. Alienus 20:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I simplified because it's a little off-topic. But Mormons believe in clergy with a very lower-case C, but they don't use the word "clergy" ever since it doesn't really apply. Nevertheless, my point was that garments are a clergical issue in many churches, and in Mormonism most everyone's clergy, so most everyone wears garments. I think there's been little enough disagreement with my point after a legit amount of time that I'm justified in removing that line.--Mrcolj 22:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
On the C S Lewis thing, I can't find any evidence that Lewis was referring to Mormons in Voyage of the Dawn Treader, and I found a few articles where literary critics definitely said he was not referring to Mormons. For example Lewis also says that Eustace's parents were vegetarians, but Mormons are definitely not vegetarians; vegetarianism was even the subject of a conference talk by President Hinckley a few years back. Funny story, when I was in the MTC someone brought that talk up to a vegetarian Sister who told us we were all evil for eating animals; her companion read a quote from President Hinckley's talk and she ran away in tears. Anyway, Eustace's parents were not Mormons, he was saying that they were into following all the latest fads, some of which at the time were non-smoking, non-drinking, vegetarianism and wearing string underwear. Aranhamo 15:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
United States
Someone may wish to check the United States article. It currently refers to Mormonism as not being a part of Christianity. I do not have the time to deal with it nor the expertise (I being raised Buddhist). Polisci 20:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe you could mention here or on the talk page of the United States article specifically which part you are referring to. I am Mormon, and I looked over the United States article and did not see anything relating to Mormons that I objected to. Aranhamo 21:30, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I have a comment...
- On this section,
"Though it is part of the canon and members believe the Bible to be the word of God, the Church also acknowledges that numerous omissions and mistranslations occurred in even the earliest known manuscripts, although the relative majority of what remains is believed to be correct. These errors have led to incorrect interpretations of the meaning of certain passages."
- who is making the acknowladgements here? It sounds to me like their acknowladgement of error is somehow being recognized as authoritative, wouldn't "also claims" be better there? And the last paragraph, is that what the church is saying, or what the article is saying on its own? It just doesn't seem very clear to me, but I assumed i'd better bring it here before making such POV related changes, I hear this whole series of Mormon articles gets iffy POV wise or something. Homestarmy 19:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- There are many variations in the text of the oldest known biblical manuscripts. Scholars have identified a number of "families" of variations. Plus you have significant variations between MT, LXX, and whatever sources Josephus used for "Antiquities." On top of this, there are sections of the original text that make no sense - just a collection of words, and most translators simply guess at what the original meaning was. Some feel all this is the reason for the "plain and precious truths" being lost. Personally, I have seen enough people disagree with the meaning of the same translation that there appears to be many ways where incorrection interpretations can come about.
- I agree that the tone of what you quote seems wrong, and at a minimum, the last sentence should be softened or omitted. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 20:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- Removing the last sentence should fix the problem. --Hetar 20:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think rather than removing the last sentence, it could be prefaced with something like "The Church believes..." As far as the Bible itself goes, I'm not aware of any Christian religion or scholarly tradition that doesn't agree that the Bible has been translated, compiled, etc. multiple times by many different people. That's why there are almost as many versions of the Bible as there are Christian churches. Just in the US, there's the version that the Catholics use, the JWs use another, Mormons use King James, most protestant/born agains use NIV, etc. Each version has significant differences from the others, such that they can't all be correct. Where disagreements lie is in the accuracy, correctness of a given version. In Brazil, the Catholics use one version, the JWs another, and then pretty much everyone else (Mormons, protestants, evangelicals, etc.) use the Joao Ferreira de Almeida. Maybe the difference is that most churches hold their version of the Bible to be infallible, while it might be considered that Mormons recognize that even the version we use is not perfect. Aranhamo 21:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- I was thinking something along the lines of "the Church believes..." myself. Homestarmy 21:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think rather than removing the last sentence, it could be prefaced with something like "The Church believes..." As far as the Bible itself goes, I'm not aware of any Christian religion or scholarly tradition that doesn't agree that the Bible has been translated, compiled, etc. multiple times by many different people. That's why there are almost as many versions of the Bible as there are Christian churches. Just in the US, there's the version that the Catholics use, the JWs use another, Mormons use King James, most protestant/born agains use NIV, etc. Each version has significant differences from the others, such that they can't all be correct. Where disagreements lie is in the accuracy, correctness of a given version. In Brazil, the Catholics use one version, the JWs another, and then pretty much everyone else (Mormons, protestants, evangelicals, etc.) use the Joao Ferreira de Almeida. Maybe the difference is that most churches hold their version of the Bible to be infallible, while it might be considered that Mormons recognize that even the version we use is not perfect. Aranhamo 21:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sola scriptura gets a little difficult when approaching so many different, existing translations in a given language. However, I agree with Homestarmy that just simply inserting "the church believes these errors have led to incorrect interpretations of certain passages." Please note that I deleted the redundant, "of the meaning". Does that work for everyone? Home, I hope you will spend some time on these Mormon articles. I would be curious to find out how you find the POV/NPOV on the articles after editing for a while. Storm Rider (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
- I would feel better about "Many members believe ..." I'm not sure it is an official position of the church. Can somebody find any references? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 09:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Earthly Polygamy
Alienus has been introducing the concept of "earthly" polygamy and has been reverted twice that I remember. After my revert I think I have come to understand what he is trying to say...Male LDS may be sealed to more than one woman. He attempts to make a distinction that in the eternities LDS and FLDS are similar. This is a debatable issue and would introduce a plethora of things to discuss the differences, authority being one of the main ones. I suggest that the purpose of the sentence is only to say that LDS should not be confused with those who practice polygamy today. To attempt to clarify earthly introduces a whole other level of conversation that is best addressed later where polygamy is discussed and in that specific article. Storm Rider (talk) 08:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- I totally agree. I understand what he was trying to say, but I think using "earthly" polygamy is just confusing and the issue is better discussed elsewhere. Aranhamo 14:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'd second that. It's an interesting topic, and merits note here, but would fit better into an article focusing on LDS polygamy; i.e. plural marriage. Tijuana Brass 17:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- I reverted for a number of doctrinal reasons. As the church today does not teach about Polygamy, we can't get clarification on it. A recent letter allows for what could be considered eternal polyandrous marriages, when doing work for the dead. Obviously, that is not the intent, nor the application, nor the doctrine. The plain fact is that since 1890 and 1904, Church members are not required or even suggested to be bound by polygamy either her or in the afterlife. It is strictly a cultural teaching promulgated via policy - and not doctrinal. -Visorstuff 18:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- In addition, Alienus wrote in his edit summary, "a widower can be sealed to his second wife, a widow cannot be sealed to her second husband." I know what he is saying, however, that is not neccessarily the case in all instances. In addition, a deseased women may be sealed in proxy to multiple deseased males. Its pretty complicated. Let's keep it simple. -Visorstuff 18:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Baptism Age
Bisric changed the article to say that baptism is "rarely" performed before age 8. I changed it back to "never" pending some source being cited to the contrary. D&C 68:25-27 clearly establishes the age of eight as the minimum age for baptism. Aranhamo 00:14, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- Bisric is correct. Rarely is appropriate. My Grandfather was baptized a few weeks prior due to the flu epidemic, and I'm aware of a few more cases. Rarely was a good example. Absolutes when it comes to the church are not wise. I'm not reverting, rather clarifying, rather than showing you my g-pa's ordinance work. -Visorstuff 00:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- I like it much better the way you did it. With just "rarely", I think it gave the wrong impression that baptisms could be performed much earlier. In the case of your grandfather, it was simply pragmatism to perform his baptism a little earlier than, but still very near to, his eighth birthday. A couple of weeks one way or the other is no big deal, but I thought "rarely" made it sound like it could be performed years earlier in certain situations. Aranhamo 14:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. Both "rarely" and "never" should be omitted. Whether there have been exceptions does not grammatically negate the rule. For example, "people can't fly" does not need to be "people rarely fly" just because some people jump off buildings or fly in planes. Baptism doesn't happen before the age of 8, and if it does, it does not happen statistically significantly often enough to justify the word "rarely." --Mrcolj 21:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- I like it much better the way you did it. With just "rarely", I think it gave the wrong impression that baptisms could be performed much earlier. In the case of your grandfather, it was simply pragmatism to perform his baptism a little earlier than, but still very near to, his eighth birthday. A couple of weeks one way or the other is no big deal, but I thought "rarely" made it sound like it could be performed years earlier in certain situations. Aranhamo 14:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Mormons Protestant?
Although many Christians reject Mormonism as a form of Christianity, some do, and from a theological and historical point of view Mormonism is part of the Christian tradition. The article concedes this. It is appropriate to regard Mormonism as in the Protestant tradition for two reasons: (a) it does not acknowledge Rome and hence is not Catholic; (b) it shares crucial Protestant doctrines, namely the direct relationship of the individual with God, not mediated by the priesthood, and administration of the church by the laity (since just about everyone is a priest).Bill 01:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- Technically protestantism only applies to a small subset of chruches that are protesting catholicism, namely, lutheranism, anglicism, etc. Puritanism, baptistism, methodism and others are not "protestant" nor protesting the edict of Worms. See Protestant's first four paragraphs. the reformists are different than protestants. Anyway... i think we shoudl stay clear of the term for technical reasons - this was discussed early on in the wiki an decided that the church is a "restorationist" church. but then again, protestantism is considered one of the three divisions. anyway... -Visorstuff 01:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
BillPoser, I think that no serious scholar considers the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to fall firmly in the Protestant category. They simply don't. Cite one scholar or "authoritative" source. Try. They simply don't. To do so would make no sense. Does the article on Unitarians say "some outside observers consider Unitarians to be a branch of the Methodist movement"? No! Because to do so would make no sense!
One of the great acheivements of science is classification. We have classes and families and genuses (geni) and species. We have them for a reason. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons do not consider themselves Protestant and do not belong in the Protestant category. The Wikipedia article on Christianity acknowledges this.
But, you want to keep this? Fine. Whatever. I still challenge you to find a citation if you think it's so important. Novel-Technology 02:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- As a Mormon, I object to being called Protestant. We consider ourselves Christians, but not Protestant. "Restorationist" is a better term. Mormonism did not split off from the Catholic tradition, but is considered by its followers to be a divine restoration of the true Church of Christ. Also, the whole church being administered by the laity thing is wrong; Protestants and others generally do not believe in priesthood authority. Mormons do, and the church is administered by the priesthood. The Catholics have a professional priesthood, we have a lay priesthood, and most other Christian churches don't have a priesthood at all. Joseph Smith said something to the effect that (paraphrasing) "How can a branch split off from the tree, calling itself good and the tree bad? If the branch came from a bad tree, it must also be bad." Aranhamo 15:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Individual personal experience does not an encyclopedia article make, however, mormon.org has an extended exposition on this (or did when I wrote this) in their questions section.eleuthero 15:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- From mormon.org:
- Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said:
- "We are not an institution which has broken away from the Roman Catholic or any other church. We are not part of a reformation. We declare that this is a Restoration. The teachings and organization of the Church are as they were anciently."
- Isn't that exactly what I said? Aranhamo 15:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Visorstuff is correct. While the LDS Church (and other Latter Day Saint denominations) may draw some practices from Protestantism, it is no more Protestant because of this than the Catholic church is Protestant after having done the same thing. To refer to a LDS denomination as Protestant is more than a matter of personal preference; it is theologically and historically incorrect to do so. Protestant is defined as much, much more beyond "not Catholic" and "the priesthood of all believers"; some Protestant denominations would contend with one or both of these assertions.
Aranhamo, while you've hit the nail or more or less on the head, saying that Protestants do not believe in a priesthood or have one at all is more in a sense of definition — the LDS Church's take on priesthood is unique and differs significantly from that of other Christian denominations (although the Church rarely mentions it, given that they're not interested in teaching the doctrine of other faiths). Keep in mind that not having a priesthood organization and belief system that is the same as your own does not preclude it from existing. Tijuana Brass 19:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- You know, to that end, the line that "some outside observers classify" Mormonism as Protestant should probably be coupled with the addition that it is incorrect to do so, beyond Mormons not considering themselves as such. Tijuana Brass 19:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. Why I didn't do that myself, I don't know. Tijuana Brass 00:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- The Mormon view is indeed that Mormonism is not a form of Protestantism, but that doesn't make it so. This article is not supposed to be from the Mormon point of view. (It is, of course, appropriate to explain Mormons' view of the matter.) Those who claim to be so authoritative on this question should consult the Wikipedia article on Protestantism, which considers Restorationism a branch of Protestantism and lists Joseph Smith as a leading Protestant (together with a note pointing to an LDS site denying this). You might also look at pieces such as this, which treats Mormonism as a branch of Protestantism, while at the same time pointing out the objections to this by both Mormons and others.Bill 02:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- You're right, the Mormon view of things do not make things necessarily true. I am not operating from the Mormon view, however, as I am not a Mormon — keep in mind that not all of us are here. You too may want to closely review the Protestantism article and the OCRT link you've provided; in neither will you find a definition of the LDS movement as Protestant (the OCRT only mentions that they are similar, which is true, and we've acknowledged it in this discussion). For that matter, having read the OCRT articles on Mormonism for some eight years now, from memory, I can't ever recall them referring to Mormonism as Protestant. Again, the LDS movement is not Protestant in history, theology, or practice, but Restorationist, a term used by Mormons and non-Mormons alike. I'm not trying to claim an intellectual superiority here, but trust me, this is coming from an ex-Mormon that is in a theological seminary, and it's been backed up by a Mormon historical researcher, among others. Tijuana Brass 03:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- The Mormon view is indeed that Mormonism is not a form of Protestantism, but that doesn't make it so. This article is not supposed to be from the Mormon point of view. (It is, of course, appropriate to explain Mormons' view of the matter.) Those who claim to be so authoritative on this question should consult the Wikipedia article on Protestantism, which considers Restorationism a branch of Protestantism and lists Joseph Smith as a leading Protestant (together with a note pointing to an LDS site denying this). You might also look at pieces such as this, which treats Mormonism as a branch of Protestantism, while at the same time pointing out the objections to this by both Mormons and others.Bill 02:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. Why I didn't do that myself, I don't know. Tijuana Brass 00:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is way too long
Well, it is. I remember it back a year ago or something (a while ago anyway), and it was much shorter, covered everything that needed to be covered, had neutral POV, etc. It seems it must have been growing at a pace of a page a month or something since then. I could probably take the "Name of the Church" section and condense it into two sentences, or maybe even one.
So why has it become so long? Would it be bad if I went through and trimmed it down? Instead of being educated, the reader is just going to come out exhausted! If he can bear to finish! Novel-Technology 02:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps some of the sections could be split off into separate articles? Homestarmy 02:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see it that way at all... it's longer than the "average" article on Wikipedia, I'd agree to that, but there's a lot to say about the LDS Church. Several sections break off into more detailed explanations and history already, but I don't see much that could be trimmed out. What did you have in mind specifically? Tijuana Brass 19:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Problem Solved. 11623 words > 9067 words. :^) Novel-Technology 15:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- Whoa there. It's good to work out alternatives, but making a change of that size on an article that's so hotly contested isn't a good idea. There's a lot of changes in your version that have some issues, too -- it reads a lot like a missionary lesson. Back up some, bring up some specifics, and build consensus before making sweeping changes. Tijuana Brass 18:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- I appreciate that, but this article had a problem, so I solved it. While my original goal was simply to make it shorter, in the process of reading and revising I made it much better. One accusation you make concerns me: "it reads a lot like a missionary lesson.". I take it by this you mean I edited it to read as LDS propaganda or as a puff piece. However, I did not intend that at all, and indeed, do not think I acheived that. I didn't make it any more positive than it already was, and I didn't really add any innapropriately negative portions either, in my opinion. If you would read it you would see this I think. The closest I came to making making the mistake you accuse me of would be the deletion of some portions in the Godhead section relating to henotheism, monotheism, etc. But I did not really delete that, StormRider did. I actually was not going to delete that paragraph until StormRider did, and then I figured, well, if he thinks it should go fine. Eliminating it does make it shorter and the paragraph was non-essential(remember my original goal was to make it shorter.). If I had added it back in, I would have essentially been reverting back StormRider's edit, and so I chose not to do so. So don't complain to me about that one, complain to StormRider, and if you want to put it back, fine.
- Is there a single other instance of my version taking a more positive or pro-LDS stance than the previous version? I think not. I actually took out (or rather, chose not to incorporate) many of StormRider's more pro-LDS revisions. So tell me, where exactly is the article biased toward the Church? Did you actually read the article and compare it with the previous? So where's the slant? If you think my revision is slanted, you surely must feel the same way about the version several days ago also, because I didn't really change the content of that. What I did consisted more of hundreds and hundreds of minor changes: shuffle two words here, delete five words there, etc.
- Should I have issued my change in the form of dozens of changes section-by section as StormRider was doing? Would you see that as better or easier to deal with? Thanks, Novel-Technology 23:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
At most times major changes to articles get reverted only because it is a major change. This is particularly so when no prior discussion takes place. For example, deleting the paragraphs devoted to for what Mormons are most known. Had you previously stated, "Hey guys, here is why I think this should be deleted...", concensus is reached and everyone is happy. There are many long-term editors that have been in countless hours getting to the point we are at today and major changes are difficult. However, the case in point regarding What Mormons are known for is a section that I have never felt belonged at the beginning of the article. To have the main article define LDS by how others think about the Church has always been odd to me. I would support its deletion.
I would request everyone to read Novel's changes in their entirety without making wholesale reverts. Then let's regroup and move the article in an agreed upon direction; hopefully one that makes it a better article. Novel, no more major changes without discussion. I suspect that my changes already had put people on edge and your edits pushed them over. I think the article can be made shorter by making statements concise. I realized my edits did not go far enough, but I thought they were a good first step. Storm Rider (talk) 00:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- There were too many changes, made too quickly, with too little (read: none) discussion. Normally, between the edit comment and the compare, I can tell what's going on. Here, I can't. Therefore, no matter how good or bad the new version is, I can't evaluate it without undue effort. I think it's up to them to make our job more manageable, not for us to strain ourselves. So if they want their text evaluated, let them revert to the original, then insert each major change separately, one at a time, with time for us to respond. Otherwise... Alienus 00:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- That is not a reaction or a request that I can argue with; it is the standard procedure. Novel, I am reverting your changes. Please go to each section and make the changes you propose. Give reasoning for your changes in the subject line; when you think there is going to be some question, explain yourself on this page. It takes a little longer, but the result is that everyone is on board at the same time. Thanks. Storm Rider (talk) 00:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- I said: "Should I have issued my change in the form of dozens of changes section-by section as StormRider was doing? Would you see that as better or easier to deal with?" So, in other words, the answer is yes?Novel-Technology 01:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
proselyting vs. proselytizing
A couple of edits have gone back and forth on this, so I looked it up at www.dictionary.com and they're both correct and mean the same thing. So it doesn't much matter which one is used. Aranhamo 00:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- If it doesn't matter, then I recommend using the one used by the LDS Church, especially since the article is about the LDS Church. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 00:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yep. The term "proselyte" is the one used by the LDS Church. Tijuana Brass 01:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- What I corrected was the bizarre "proselytingpro", which doesn't exist. I myself prefer "proselytizing" to "proselyting" but agree that both are in use. I do, however, dissent from 日本穣 Nihonjoe's argument: just because Mormons themselves use "prosleyting" is not a good argument to use it here as Wikipedia is not intended specifically for Mormons. It would be different if the word were a technical term specific to Mormonism, but this isn't.Bill 02:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- "Proselytingpro" was clearly an error, so thanks for fixing it; nobody is contesting that. However, when writing an article about a particular group/organization/religion/whatever, unless it causes some sort of significant problem, the linguistics used by those both within the group and those without who describe it will commonly be used. As "proselyte" is the word of choice in the LDS world (as opposed to "proselytize"), it makes more sense to use it, since they have the same exact meaning. Tijuana Brass 03:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- What I corrected was the bizarre "proselytingpro", which doesn't exist. I myself prefer "proselytizing" to "proselyting" but agree that both are in use. I do, however, dissent from 日本穣 Nihonjoe's argument: just because Mormons themselves use "prosleyting" is not a good argument to use it here as Wikipedia is not intended specifically for Mormons. It would be different if the word were a technical term specific to Mormonism, but this isn't.Bill 02:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yep. The term "proselyte" is the one used by the LDS Church. Tijuana Brass 01:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I have been going over the article the last two days attempting to streamline it; take out redundancies, correct punctuation, and make it more concise. I did delete one paragraph from the Major Beliefs section that I think belongs in the Criticism section. I include it here just so that it is not lost:
- Despite the Church's name, its focus on Jesus as the Savior of mankind, its family values, and many of the Gospel teachings it shares with other branches of Christianity, theologians and members of those other branches consider the difference between LDS practices and doctrines—such as the contrast between the Church's doctrine of the Godhead and the mainstream Christian doctrine of the Triune God —so fundamental that they do not regard Latter-day Saints as Christians. In their view, a non-mainstream understanding of Jesus Christ makes His saving grace null and void, and Latter-day Saints are understood to be lost with adherents of all other religions because of the differences in their understanding of Christ. Latter-day Saints counter that it is mainstream Christianity that misunderstands the nature of God. They hold that the mainstream concept of God was corrupted by the introduction of Platonic realism, Neoplatonism, and extreme Asceticism into the early Christian church and that these influences continued through what they term the Great Apostasy. For continued discussion on this subject see Mormonism and Christianity.
I would request each of you before reverting any portion to read the article in its entirety first. There is still too much repetition that has resulted from edits over the life of the article without taking into consideration the whole article. Also, I certainly have not got everthing and everyone's help would be appreciated. Storm Rider (talk) 06:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)