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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amiga virtual machine

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by LjL (talk | contribs) at 19:07, 17 May 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Amiga virtual machine

An Amiga emulator is no more a Virtual machine then any other emulator. Should we have pages for NES virtual machine, Mac virtual machine, etc...? I believe the topics in this article is sufficiently covered by Amiga emulation and WinUAE.

  • Delete. This looks life a strange (and OR) "parroting" of things like the JVM, which are actually intended to be virtual machines, and never were real hardware. "Write once, run anywhere" was never a stated goal for Amiga Motorola 680x0 executable programs, and the term "AVM" itself is not attested at all. Advice that the content of the "Bytecodes" section (by the way, again, nobody ever called M68k instructions byte-code before, and they most definitely are not) be merged into Motorola 680x0, as it may contain useful information about the M68k instruction set. LjL 19:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Follow-up: I've done the above (merging into Motorola 680x0), as well as putting some content into Amiga emulation as well. Please review my edits! LjL 19:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep If you don't personally like Amiga Virtual Machines then that is fine but that is no reason to damage wikipedia by removing a clearly written article. To Mr. LjL, your complaint is false as Macintosh Virtual Machines and PC Virtual Machines are already listed in various other parts of the wikipedia such as Comparison_of_virtual_machines. Perhaps you feel that Java inc. owns the term "Virtual Machine". It does not. Furthermore the term "Virtual Machine" is synonymous with "Emulator". The trouble is that people who type in the phrase "Emulator" are usually looking for games, while people who type in "Virtual Machine" are typically searching for some type of serious application to perform work. Thus 2 different articles are needed, each with its own clear focus. Also if you were to discriminate against PC, Mac, Amiga virtual machines and delete them then you would also have to delete Java Virtual Machine. It sounds like your complaint is an attempt to give Java a Wikipedia monopoly. There are many types of virtual machines in the world today and they are ALL worthy of wikipedia articles.--StoneGiant 07:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I see your point that an Amiga emulator == Virtual Machine. BTW, is there a difference between an emulator and a virtual machine? Anyway I still disagree that all virtual machines are deserving of a Wikipedia article. It clutters Wikipedia to have (small) articles about largely the same topic, why not simply mention in the emulation article that emulators can be viewed as virtual machines in the same vain as Java, C#, and virtualizes? Bottom line, Amiga Virtual Machine, Amiga Software Abstraction Layer, Amiga Runtime Environment, and Amiga emulator is just ways of saying the same thing. (And I doubt those searching for Virtual Machine is overtly interested in WinUAE.)--Anss123 08:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Nice non sequitur there: my complaint is false because PC and Mac VMs are listed in another article. So? Add Amiga-related information to that article. On the other hand, I don't see a PC virtual machine or a Macintosh virtual machine article.
That people who type "emulator" are "usually" looking for games, while people who type "virtual machine" are looking for serious stuff, is, to my ears, an absurdity. I've been involved with Amiga emulation (and emulation of other systems) since 1997, never using games, and I've always referred to emulators, and that's what I always heard people calling them as well.
Two articles with different focus are definitely not needed, in any case! You're suggesting two articles on the very same topic, except from two different points of view (gaming vs applications). That's absolutely frowned upon!
Instead, if you think people searching for "virtual machine" rather than "emulation" is an issue, than just make this article a redirect to Amiga emulation, and add useful content there.
What you say about Java makes no sense whatsoever. Obviously Sun (Java Inc.? What is Java Inc.?) does not own the term "virtual machine", but the JVM has always been called so. Amiga emulators have always been called Amiga emulators, not virtual machines, by the very authors of them.
Make no mistake, they are virtual machines technically, but that's simply because every emulator is a virtual machine.
I restate my point: this article is a POV fork of Amiga emulation, and has no place on Wikipedia. Merge its content into the appropriate article(s), and if felt necessary make this article a redirect.
Additionally, I feel a separate Amiga Anywhere article is needed. LjL 14:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I'm sorry but I cannot find anything in this article that violates any rules. It is NPOV, uses proper English etc. I wish it had more meat but I am sure someone will expand it. I agree with StoneGiant that Sun does not own the concept of Virtual Machine. Wikipedia is not a soapbox for rich corporations. Opensource free virtual machines are deserving of articles just as much as any other.--4.231.152.76 09:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Response You said "I see your point that an Amiga emulator == Virtual Machine" but in fact my point is that Amiga Virtual Machine >= Amiga emulator. Amiga Virtual Machine is a very large and complicated subject. It requires a reasonably large article to explain it all. When someone says "Amiga Emulator" they are normally referring to UAE or Fellow which emulate existing hardware and not referring to Amiga Anywhere which is a virtual machine with no native hardware. You can't simply absorb the article into WinUAE that would be completely unfair to the competing Fellow AVM and you can't absorb it into Motorola 680x0 because Amiga Anywhere uses completely different byte codes than Motorola. I think you are trying to oversimplify things. Give the article a chance to grow. --StoneGiant 13:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Response - "Amiga virtual machine", in the broad sense you give to the term, doesn't need one article at all. It needs a few. One is Amiga emulation (not WinUAE or Fellow), which covers "virtual machines" that run 680x0 software; another ought to be Amiga Anywhere, which should exist in its own right as an article IMHO (just as you said, it uses completely different opcodes and is completely different in almost every possible sense). Motorola 68000 or 68k (which is the same as Motorola 680x0, a bit of a mess there) are, additionally, appropriate places for discussing the 68k architecture/instruction set in some detail. LjL 14:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - by the way, see how many hits "Amiga virtual machine" (with quotes) gets on Google (and compare with "Amiga emulation", if you really feel the need). This is a made up term, as is "AVM", as is the idea that "write once run anywhere" was an intended goal of the 68k Amiga architecture. Remove all the POV, and what you're left with is Amiga emulation. Except for the recent addition of an Amiga Anywhere section -- make an article out of it. LjL 14:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response you said "This is a made up term,". It is a scientific term not a made up one.
    AVM is an abbreviation not a made up term. Why don't you attack JVM? JVM is a made up term by your criteria. Are you a Java sock puppet?
    You said "as is the idea that "write once run anywhere" was an intended goal of the 68k Amiga architecture."
    1. You are the only person claiming it was the intended goal so your argument is false.
    2. The word "goal" does not even appear in the article so your argument is completely erroneous.
    3. The "write once run anywhere" is just something that happened as a result of many hours of work by many people who released their work as open source. There is no need for you to be hostile about it and try to delete it.--StoneGiant 16:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Open source is evil and must be eliminated. Java will rule the world!! Seriously, my point isn't that this article is without merit, my point is that there is no need for both an article about Amiga emulation and Amiga virtual machine. In other words, we can keep this article and delete Amiga emulation or drop this article in favor of Amiga emulation.--Anss123 16:51, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Response I would agree there was not a need for both Amiga emulation and Amiga Virtual Machine if the subject matter was simpler. But due to the complexity of the subject I cannot agree to this. The Amiga emulation article states in the first sentence that it is only about Classic Amiga emulation. Info about Amiga Anywhere does not belong in that article according to itself. Furthermore it is my opinion that info about bytecodes and other technical stuff does not belong in that other article. Amiga emulation should target "light" information useful to people who want to play games on an emulator and do the warez scene IMHO. While "heavy" technical information should be in the Amiga virtual machine article IMHO.
You are complaining that there are now 3 articles covering various aspects of Amiga virtual machines but look what I found in 60 seconds of wikipedia searching:

That is 11 articles all about the same thing. How did you decide that Java virtual machine gets 11 articles but Amiga virtual machine must be deleted for having 3 articles? Why don't you merge those 11 articles down into 2? Why were those articles allowed to grow unchecked for years? Why haven't you proposed them for deletion since they are all about the same thing?

"Java" refers to a programming language and to a virtual machine (JVM) and its bytecode language. Those should be treated separately, as the JVM can and is used with other high-level programming languages, and the Java programming language doesn't necessarily compile into bytecode executed by a JVM. So some distinctions are appropriate.
Some of the articles you cited, however, do look to me like they would benefit from a merge: for example, I'm not sure it's appropriate to have an article entirely devoted to listing Java keywords, nor am I sure the various editions of Java Platform are best kept as separate articles.
"Amiga" refers to a lot of things, as well. Amiga computers, the AmigaOS (and then MorphOS, AROS...), Amiga Anywhere, the M68k architecture, the PPC architecture, emulators, and many other things. And these are roughly all represented on Wikipedia, just search for "amiga site:en.wikipedia.org" on Google.
It's many more than just 11 articles for sure.
The way you seem to put it, having to separate "Amiga emulation" and "Amiga virtual machine" articles would be rather like having two separate "Java platform for gaming" and "Java platform for application use" -- a distinction that would be completely arbitrary (since it would only exist on Wikipedia), stemming from two different POVs.
And please stop referring to Amiga Anywhere as a reason to keep this article; Anywhere, DE, whatever-they're-called, are completely different things from the "classic" Amiga computers and the emulators/VMs for them. Amiga Anywhere needs its own article, possibly Amiga Anywhere. LjL 19:07, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Response - why exactly are you turning my words upside down? What I claimed is that it was not the intended goal, and that the fact that the article implied overwise is POV. The word "goal" does not have to explicitely appear in the article to make it POV'd like I said. For example, the article says
The AVM has instructions for the following groups of tasks
(originally, it even said "bytecodes") - it's the M68k that has instructions for those tasks, and the "AVM" (i.e. Amiga emulators) have them simply as an effect of the fact that they, well, emulate a M68k. Obviously. So the phrase is not false, just horribly POV. This kind of POV impregnates the whole article, though I will refrain from quoting every relevant part of it here.
And while the term "JVM" is as made up as "AVM", JVM was made up not by Wikipedia, but by the folks who made it. "AVM" is being made up by this article alone. Wikipedia does not do original research. That it's an abbreviation doesn't quite matter, acronyms are terms too. And the phrase "Amiga virtual machine" itself is not an attested term, as a search on Google will obviously tell.
I'm not hostile about open source, and I'm specifically not hostile against Amiga emulators. I'm just kinda hostile about this article.
Lastly, you refer to me as a possible "Java sock puppet". May I ask you what you mean with this? That mine's a sock puppet account? Hopefully it's just my misunderstanding of English, and you really mean something else. Sockpuppeting is a grave accusation.
(By the way, I mostly agree with Anss123 if that wasn't clear enough, except that I rather favor keeping Amiga emulation and merging this article to it instead of doing the opposite.) LjL 17:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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