Talk:Murder of Danielle van Dam
No references
No sources, unnerve tag added.--FloNight 18:51, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Neutrality disputed
Evidence casting doubt on guilt has been repeatedly removed - see previous versions.
Protected
Due to constant edit warring, the page is now protected from editing. Please resolve your disputes here. Remember that all information that goes into the article must be verifiable from reliable sources. Once you have reached a compromise, please request unprotection. If you cannot come to some sort of compromise, you should see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Thanks. howcheng {chat} 23:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- Personally, I like this current version of the David Westerfield case. At first, I believe 196.15.168.40 had good intentions and was making worthy contributions. But then they kept introducing new stuff every single day and the notes were getting ridiculously long. The article got all messed up and seemed to lean towards the fact that Westerfield was set up by the police. The inclusion of the James Selby confession, is worthless because the police didn't believe him. It did not exonerate Westerfield; he is still in jail. I think the current version is balanced and summarizes the case.
TripleH1976 09:52 p.m., 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It is understandable that you like this version, you authored it. However you also misstated some things and 196.15.168.40 did a very good job of making the corrections to the article.
I am new to this site and I don't know how to sign my comments....sorry - FreedomRings
Accuracy
Everything I added IS verifiable, mostly directly from the trial transcripts (including unsealed documents, also the autopsy report), which are more authoritative than media reports.
The version which has been protected contains errors. This has been stated many times, as can be seen from the History file (March 29, and April 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 14, 18 and 20), and those accusations have gone unchallenged. (I haven’t included March 21 and 25, because those corrections haven’t been undone.)The corrected versions were much more accurate than the protected version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreedomRings (talk • contribs)
If anyone wants to now dispute that, then please provide proof that Danielle and Brenda only sold cookies to Westerfield once, that Brenda returned from the bar with only two friends (I won’t be impressed if you merely argue that the men arrived in a separate car), that Westerfield was the only neighbor who “was not home on a Saturday” (that’s a strange statement), that he arrived home driving his RV (unless this was a reference to the Saturday afternoon, but the context implies it wasn’t), that he said he was driving around the county all night, that he was seen in a casino during the weekend Danielle went missing, that he gave his RV an intense cleaning, that her body was badly decomposed, that the video was of a 7-year-old, that he spied on his neighbors with binoculars, that his lawyers revealed that he was going to take police to the dump site - and that he was born on June 16, 1949.
- Oh give me a break! Danielle and Brenda DID once sell cookies to Westerfield. It is open to interpretation if it was 2, 3, or 4 times. It happened at least one time. It doesn't say it was ONLY one time; it says it happened at least once. You're arguing about semantics here. Overall, the case is about Westerfield murdering the girl, not cookie sales. And why do you insist on including the time the surveillance began? This article is a summary of the case, not the entire case from start to finish. Your version wants to include EVERYTHING. If everything you say is verifiable, where are your footnotes then? The reader does not need to know what one neighbor said about Westerfield and his binoculars. They don't need to know about his former wife's statements either. The James Selby confession is worthless, because the police didn't believe him. It's not uncommon for criminals to confess to stuff they didn't do. Such criminals, who have nothing to lose will lie to police in order to confuse them and misdirect them. Westerfield was NOT exonerated by anything Selby had to say. If the reader needs to know ALL the details they can follow the links to the case. The wikipedia article does not have to include EVERYTHING. TripleH1976 07:24p.m., 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Reply to TripleH1976:
Number of sales: This is an encyclopedia, so a high standard is required. The words chosen must be precise and permit no ambiguity. Twice is not once; three times is not once. And there IS evidentiary relevance. One possibility, if there was only one sale, just days before she was taken - meaning that this was the first time Westerfield had contact with her - is that he was smitten by her, hence the kidnapping/murder - behavior which was totally out of character for him. But the previous sales rule out that possibility. And Van Dam hairs and fibers in his house were used as evidence against him: some could have been left over from previous visits. Brenda Van Dam also stated on Larry King Live June 3, 2003 that they had also sold gift wrap at a previous time and this was never mentioned in court. Keep in mind that any order previously made also requires a delivery date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreedomRings (talk • contribs)
Time surveillance began: (This wasn’t one of the points I listed.) As surveillance began less than 24 hours after they first interviewed him, this is relevant to the allegation that the police were guilty of a rush to judgement.
Spying: The old version of the article states, as if it were a proven fact, that Westerfield spied on his neighbors with binoculars. I listed the only evidence I could find - and it’s very weak evidence. I could have added a comment to that effect, and concluded that the allegation is almost certainly not true, but refrained from doing so.
Including everything: Given your concern about the greater length of the new version of the article, I could have simply replaced the original “spying” statement with something like: “The police believed that Westerfield spied on his neighbors with binoculars, but this is probably not true”. But by giving the actual evidence, the reader can decide for themselves whether or not this was proved. I like evidence. This point is also relevant to the Neutrality issue, which I discussed separately.
Selby: It’s not uncommon for criminals to confess to stuff they DID do. And Selby did confess to crimes he committed. Based on what is known about him, he might well have been responsible for Danielle’s death. It is the job of the police to INVESTIGATE leads and evidence, but in this case they failed to do so - not only Selby’s confession, but any evidence pointing away from Westerfield, giving as their excuse a lack of time. Westerfield WOULD have been exonerated IF Selby’s DNA had been compared to the unidentified DNA in the blood on Danielle’s bed and found to be a match. And the same is true of the unidentified prints on the Van Dam’s staircase and by her door, and of the evidence at the dump site especially the hair.
Verification: The existing article didn’t include footnotes, so I merely followed that example. My source was the San Diego Union-Tribune, especially the trial transcripts on their website, which I added to the External links but which was repeatedly removed.
Conclusion: You did not respond to most of the points I listed, and for those you did respond to, in no case did you dispute the truth of what I said - your objections are on various other grounds. I therefore conclude that you accept that the accuracy of the article will be greatly improved if my edits are reinstated.
Westerfield birthday
I just want to say that I was not the one, who put the birthday information. I assume somebody who knows him may have put that in. TripleH1976 08:11 p.m., 25 April 2006 (UTC)
David Westerfield, born February 25, 1952 — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreedomRings (talk • contribs)
Neutrality
Articles must be neutral. That means giving both sides of an argument. In a court case, it means giving the evidence both for and against the defendant.
The old article (up to mid-March) contained only evidence of guilt (except perhaps Westerfield’s explanation for the porn and the “suggestions” by his attorneys about the police’s rush to judgement and the parents’ lifestyle). It was therefore not neutral. So the current, protected version is also not neutral.
I added evidence of innocence to balance the article, creating the desired neutrality. This consisted of the entomology evidence, the search dog evidence, the red fibers found with Danielle’s fingernail clippings, the failure to find any evidence that Westerfield had been in Danielle’s home, and so on.
I didn’t remove any evidence of guilt, I merely corrected errors in it (e.g. the plea bargain), or pointed out if it was incomplete or misleading (e.g. the blood evidence, the hint at suicide, and his niece’s testimony), thus creating a balanced and neutral article. Nor have I attempted to correct/improve the article about Danielle: I saw, for example, that it also contained the wrong date for the discovery of her body, but I left it alone.
In stark contrast, TripleH1976 completely removed all I added (apart from the first two small corrections), thus reverting the article to its previous, non-neutral state.
Until his comment above (April 24) about Westerfield possibly having been set up by the police, he did not challenge the neutrality of any of my edits. Let the facts speak for themselves.
- Sorry but, I feel, the article is neutral enough. If there is more mention of the guilty evidence, then that's no fault of mine. I mean, the man was convicted by a jury of his peers. Clearly, they thought the evidence of guilt out weight the evidence of not guilty. It seems to me like you wanna use this wikipedia article as your platform to retry the case. You saturated and convoluted the article with so much information that it started to resemble a novel. If someone came here and just wanted a brief description of the case, your version would have left them confused and regretful they ever read anything. There's no reason for the reader to believe the abduction happened on the day Westerfield bought cookies. Because the next paragraph goes into the crime, clearly indicating the cookie sales happened before. Perhaps, the Van Dams and Westerfield don't even remember how many times they bought and sold cookies from each other. Only they know; anything we say is speculative. This article is not a court room. You do not need to overwhelm a reader with every single itty, itty, bitty piece of evidence. TripleH1976, 10:30 p.m., 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Reply to TripleH1976:
The article isn’t neutral at all. It was you who wrote it, so it was you who selected what to include and what to exclude. The jury had nothing to do with that. I have not said that Westerfield is innocent: I am trying to be neutral, so I have merely presented the evidence. If you find that threatening then you should examine your standpoint - and it would be a good reason to “retry the case” here. If you were confident of your conclusion, then you would welcome the evidence, secure in the belief it would confirm you are right.
I detect anger in your responses. One reason I decided to study this case is the public anger that surrounded it: that is not conducive to an objective verdict. Now might be a good time to re-examine the evidence: the time which has elapsed has given tempers a chance to cool down a little. You do not have the right to prevent that.
Given the public anger, I wonder if it is really so clear that the jury thought the evidence of guilt outweighed the evidence of innocence: was it the evidence or the angry crowd that was responsible for their verdict? That by itself is a good reason to “retry the case” here.
I don’t find the article convoluted at all. Nevertheless, I don’t object to a copy editor revising it - whether to shorten it or to improve the readability.
Novels are fiction: everything I added is fact.
Part of your reply actually refers to length, not neutrality, and so belongs in the next section.
Someone who came here wouldn’t necessarily want such a brief description, which might leave them dissatisfied: they might instead want more detail and more facts - and neutrality - but not have the time to wade through numerous media articles and lengthy trial transcripts. So they might be extremely grateful to me - they would certainly be better informed. One idea I had was to have the evidence in a separate section within the article. That would result in both a brief summary (which you want) and more detail (which I want).
I don’t understand your point about the abduction not happening on the day of the cookie sale. I never said it was, nor that that was implied by the original version. For your information, neither Westerfield nor the Van Dams could remember which day the sale was on: every day from Tuesday to Friday was suggested at one time or another. I didn’t introduce the cookie sale: it was already in the article, but incorrect - I merely corrected it. Accuracy is important.
In fact I introduced few new topics, but they were extremely important ones, such as the entomological evidence, the lack of evidence that Westerfield was in the Van Dam house, Danielle having prior access to his RV, and so on. How can you have an article about the case without including those topics? Or the kidnapping scenario. That permitted the “special circumstances” carrying the death penalty to be invoked, so it is justifiable to include details of it. It’s not my fault that the story is implausible, I didn’t make it up.
One can argue that, with such important topics now having been added to the article, the previous topics should be reviewed with a view to possibly removing some of them. I have no objection to that.
An alternative solution, for the specific topic of the cookie sale (though this solution could possibly be applied to other topics as well), is simply to reword it so that it doesn’t say “once”. It would then be correct and my correction would not have been required. And I wasn’t speculating on the number of sales: I quoted what was testified to in court.
Those solutions fall far short of the draconian removal of nearly everything I added.
There are over 10,000 pages in the trial transcripts. It is obvious therefore that my 3-page article does not contain “every single itty, itty, bitty piece of evidence”. Far from it. There is - rightly, in my opinion - no mention of Westerfield’s porch light being on, his blinds being closed, his supposed nervousness and sweating, the refund at the Strand, him doing his laundry after returning from a dusty place, his RV getting stuck in the desert, the voice the tow-truck driver thought he heard, and so on. More serious omissions - again, in my opinion - are the inability to determine the cause of death (mentioned in Danielle’s article), the drag trails at the dump site, the lack of a body silhouette there, the failure of the police to investigate DNA found in the blood stains on Danielle’s bed, that her parents initially lied to the police, the fact that Westerfield doesn’t fit the FBI profile, and so on.
There’s a lot about this case that is truly troubling.
Length
The increased length of the article has been criticized several times: on April 12, 14, 18, 21, 24 and 25, but no guidelines/regulations were ever quoted supporting this criticism or indicating what the appropriate length should be. (I am new to Wikipedia, and this is the first time I have contributed to it, so I would welcome being pointed to any such rules.) The latest extended version (April 20/24) is only just over two pages in length, including all the Notes.
After the first criticism, I said (April 14) that the length could be addressed after the required quality standard was achieved (which was just a week later, on April 20); and I virtually repeated that on April 18, when I also pointed out that the extended version of the article was still shorter than certain other articles I named; while on April 20 I pointed out that there is a difference between conciseness and suppressing evidence - I had begun to suspect (and this suspicion was reinforced by comments on April 24) that length was not the issue, and that it was just an excuse to justify a biased article.
If length is genuinely a problem, then the article can be shortened by removing things other than just evidence pointing to innocence.
I have no objection to a professional copy editor removing any verbosity (the criticism on April 18) while keeping the article balanced, i.e. retaining a neutral point of view. So any removal of evidence must be done evenly to both sides.
If the objection is to the length of the Notes (April 12 and 24), then they can be incorporated into the article.
A related objection was that the article is supposed to provide only an outline of the case, and no detail (April 21) - just a summary of the case (April 24 and 25) - but no reference was given to any guidelines/regulations on this point.
That is one option, but there is an alternative. This was a very high-profile case, so extra information can be justified. It can also be justified on the grounds that there were distinctive aspects of this case. If entomological evidence is as inaccurate/unreliable as the prosecution argued - and the jury believed - then its use in criminal cases should be reviewed. This case may have been the first time the rear knuckle area of the finger was used to make a match. The police failed to investigate evidence pointing away from their only suspect. There was public and even media pressure on the jury to render a guilty verdict.
The article could examine such issues, thereby greatly increasing and broadening its value.
- The fact it was a high-profile case does not mean the article has to be lengthy. Take a look at the Alejandro Avila article. It is short and to the point, the way an article should be. The case of Charles Ng that is a massive case, but look at the length of his article. You just wanna retry the case in here. It is the defense attorney's job to defend the defendant not the job of a wikipedia article. Stop trying to persuade people into thinking Westerfield is innocent. If people wanna know the whole case then let them follow the links. Notes are not meant to be long and boring the way you made them. They're only suppose to be tidbits of the case that didn't fit in the larger article. The part of the binoculars is not stated as fact. It is mentioned because it was discussed at the trial. If we had to mention every refute evidence, then every single crime article would go pages, and pages and pages long. Again, the article is suppose to outline the case not give you the WHOLE CASE! What don't you understand about that? You are like a defense attorney trying to refute anything to get your client off. You're treating the article like a courtroom. As for Selby he is a liar. Time will show that, and considering how slow California is to carry out the death sentence maybe Westerfield will get out(assuming DNA evidence exonerates him) someday in the future. Afterall, he's entitle to a whole bunch of appeals. If the article looks like Westerfield is guilty it's because a jury found him guilty. His presumption of being innocent until proven guilty is long over. The defense side is mentioned. Is it mentioned to your satisfactory? I assume not so you should take that up with his defense council, for not putting on a stronger defense. TripleH1976 11:15 p.m., 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Reply to TripleH1976:
The fact it was a high-profile case may not mean the article HAS to be lengthy, but does mean it CAN be lengthy. I don’t consider 3 pages to be lengthy, but I suggested several reasons why THIS article could justifiably be longer. And my version is only 1 page longer than it was before, that’s what all the fuss is about - totally out of proportion. And I would again request you to show me the rule it now violates (if any).
Just because some articles are short doesn’t mean that all have to be. If somebody were to increase the length of the other articles you named (Avila and Ng), I wouldn’t object. If anyone thought there was sufficient reason to do so, that would be fine with me, I certainly wouldn’t try to stop them, as long as their facts were correct. I see there’s also an article on Ng’s accomplice and one on his extradition. So there’s a total of 4 pages on him. If they filmed themselves committing some of the crimes, then my guess is that there’s not much doubt about his guilt. Similarly, according to the Avila article, his DNA was found on Samantha’s body, whereas the DNA of somebody other than Westerfield was found with Danielle’s body. The article on OJ Simpson is just over 5 pages.
It’s not so much a case of IF I want to retry the case here, but SHOULD it be retried? If you can’t refute the evidence of innocence, then the answer is clearly YES. However, I’m not sure that what I have done goes as far as “retrying” the case: I have merely presented some evidence of innocence, most of which was simply correcting errors or misleading statements.
Given that there will be an appeal, that’s a good reason for having more detail, so people can get more information, quickly and easily, when the appeal is heard.
I could equally argue that it is the prosecutor's job to prosecute the defendant, not the job of a Wikipedia article, so stop trying to persuade people into thinking Westerfield is guilty. Instead, just give the evidence of guilt and evidence disproving the evidence of innocence.
If the article doesn’t contain any mention of entomology, for example, then how will any reader know that it even played a role in the case, much less go to the links to look it up? If the links are a good reason to leave out evidence of innocence, then they are also a good reason to leave out evidence of guilt.
There are now 5 notes more than before: 2 of those were placed there by someone else who also removed 1 old one (which mentioned the defense and pointed to possible innocence). So I added 4 notes, 2 of 2 lines each, one of 3 lines and 1 of 4 lines (total 11 lines). The 7 notes I changed are now just 8 lines in total longer than before. By comparison, I noticed one of the Avila notes is 5 lines long. So the accusation that they are long is unfounded; I’ll leave you to justify your other allegation, that they are boring. And I have already said that I won’t object if they are incorporated into the article (which some originally came from), if this really is a problem.
The binoculars WERE stated as a fact - the trial REVEALED that he spied on his neighbors with binoculars (not “suggested” or “pointed to”). I only mentioned them because the statement was WRONG. If they hadn’t been mentioned in the old article (now the protected version), then I wouldn’t have mentioned them. If they were included in the article because they were discussed at the trial, then why wasn’t the entomology included? After all, it was also discussed at the trial, and at far greater length than the binoculars.
Most (about two-thirds) of my edits were related to topics already in the article, few (only about one-third) were new topics: I was mainly just correcting erroneous or misleading statements.
I have already disproved your allegation that my extended version of the article contains the whole case (see my response in the Neutrality section).
I could retort that you are like a prosecutor trying to refute anything to get the defendant convicted - but that wouldn’t be true as you have not responded to most of my points. What would be wrong with “treating the article like a courtroom”: that could be highly educational - especially if it were a first for Wikipedia.
Selby may be a liar, but so are Damon and Brenda, and that wouldn’t mean he was lying about killing Danielle - which is really all that concerns us here.
What will you do if Westerfield does get out (whether exonerated by DNA or something else, such as police misconduct - remember Detective Ott? - or failure to follow standard procedure - remember the drop of blood in the RV?)? Will you then completely revise this article so that it only shows evidence of innocence? Won’t that be embarrassing for Wikipedia, that they got it so badly wrong?
If the article (the protected version) looks like Westerfield is guilty, it's because the author thereof thinks he is guilty, which may or may not be because a jury found him guilty, and may or may not be because his defense counsel didn’t put on a stronger defense. Did you believe him guilty before or only after the jury’s verdict? Before or only after the defense case?
My edits to this article had nothing to do with his presumption of being innocent until proven guilty: all I am doing is giving the evidence, so the article now has evidence both for and against (or did until it was all removed).
The defense side may be mentioned in the article, but only briefly and weakly. In fact, the old (but now protected) article even implies - incorrectly - that his lawyers knew he was guilty. So is the defense mentioned to my satisfaction? Of course not. The first priority is to get the facts correct.
Third opinion
This article needs sources. Keep in mind the standard here is verifiability, not truth. This isn't a court of law, so nobody should be proving any cases here. We should be summarizing others' reports of what happened, not creating our own. Unreferenced statements should be removed from the article along with information that is not important to this case. Fagstein 02:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Reply to Fagstein:
Thank you for your input.
I’d be happy to provide sources for my edits (it would just take a bit of time because there are a lot of them), but they have been removed - repeatedly. And the version of the article which has been protected does not contain them. What is therefore needed is for the article to be unprotected, for my edits to be reinstated, and for them NOT to be again removed. If anybody objects to any of my edits, then they should do so in an acceptable manner, such as flagging the article as POV (better still would be to flag just the individual edits), or to “improve the edit, rather than reverting it” (see Resolving disputes).
I’m not sure that anybody is “proving any cases here”. I have no objection to having a detailed analysis of the evidence here - and I would be willing to contribute to that - but that’s not what I was trying to achieve. When I found the article two months ago, it contained errors and lacked neutrality. In other words, it was not of an acceptable standard - and so should not have been protected. All I was doing was correcting those flaws.
What you may have meant was that the article must not advocate guilt or innocence. My goal was to correct an existing imbalance, so I was consciously trying to keep my contributions as neutral as possible.
By summarizing “others’ reports” of what happened, I presume you are including testimony at the trial, as witness reports are more comprehensive and reliable than media reports.
If information that is NOT important to the case should be removed, then I take that to mean that information that IS important should be included/reinstated. Such as the entomology.
You haven’t said anything about the length of the article or of the Notes, so I presume you don’t think my extended version is too long (which was the main stated objection to my edits).
Taking all the above into account, I conclude that you are agreeable to my edits being reinstated, but I must then add my sources - and the other contributors must add theirs. 196.15.168.40 04:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- You've been out to do way more then just correct flaws. Your version of the article clearly looks like you believe Westerfield was wrongfully convicted. If all you were concern about was mistakes you would have corrected them once or twice and be over with it. But, instead, you added details every single day. The article was convoluted; you challenged each piece of evidence as if we were in the court room. It was like you trying to retry the case. You gave your own analysis about why the jurors didn't go to the dump site or the Van Dam home. Did the judge tell you that? How do you know? You mention it like it was fact. You make moot points like the children being unsupervised, so that's why there was blood on the RV's carpet. That's an example of spin. TripleH1976 1:24 a.m., 15 May (2006)
Reply to TripleH1976:
The flaws I was referring to were not just errors but also the lack of neutrality (which I know you dispute). And I was adding details every day because there were so many flaws. If I was just pointing out where the flaws were, then that would have been quick and easy, and I could have done that “once or twice and be over with it”. But I was CORRECTING the flaws which meant that, to maintain a high standard, I had to check my sources to ensure my facts were correct and then word my changes carefully.
I don’t agree that this made the article convoluted. I’m sure an experienced copy editor could make small improvements here and there, but I don’t believe that major changes are necessary.
I was merely presenting the evidence. If that makes it look like Westerfield was wrongfully convicted, then so be it: you are free to dispute the accuracy or neutrality of anything I have written. However, I would point out that I did not dispute that there WAS evidence consistent with guilt: I was just showing that it is WEAK evidence - I’m sure some people would still consider him guilty.
That may make the article look like it is retrying the case in a courtroom, but it also makes it look like a balanced article, presenting both points of view, as one would expect in an encyclopedia.
I would argue that some of my changes had little, if any evidentiary value, one way or the other: I was concerned merely with accuracy. Such as the date the body was discovered. Or the time she was discovered missing. Or that he arrived home in his SUV not his RV.
I only challenged evidence I thought needed challenging. I didn’t dispute that Damon put Danielle to bed around 10:30, though I have also seen an earlier time: 10:00 (Damon Van Dam, trial testimony, March 14, 2002). (It was someone else who removed that statement.) I haven’t disputed the length of Westerfield’s RV, even though I have seen different figures: 33 feet (Neal Westerfield, July 24); 37 feet (Harriet Ryan, Court TV, June 17). I was tempted to change the description of Westerfield’s children from “adult” to “college”, for greater precision (Neal Westerfield, July 24; Lisa Westerfield, September 4). And I was certainly tempted to change the statements that he first said he drove around the county (implying aimlessly), then said he drove around the desert and the beach (implying he changed his story) - but I didn’t feel like searching through reams of pages trying to determine if there was any truth in those statements. In any case, no record was made of his initial statements. If you think the article convoluted, then changing that section would help simplify it.
I don’t know whether the jurors went to the dump site or not: they might well have done so individually before they were selected as jurors: I was referring solely to the Van Dam home. Did the judge tell me why they didn’t go there? Actually, yes, he did. Not me personally - I’ve never met him. But he stated this in court (on June 24, page 5905 of the trial transcripts). Admittedly not open court, but that document was subsequently unsealed, along with many others, and it is available on the Union-Tribune website to anyone who wants to see it for themselves (Greg Moran, “Mudd given time line to unseal transcripts”, September 24, 2002, Document No. 14, westerfield12.pdf ). So it IS a fact.
I didn’t say there was blood on the RV carpet BECAUSE the children were unsupervised. In fact, I didn’t attempt to link the two together at all - and there are two paragraphs in between. Had I linked them, I would have said that, because the children were unsupervised at times, and the RV door was unlocked and open at times, they had the opportunity and COULD have entered the RV (even Nancy Grace of Court TV can imagine a little girl doing that (Larry King Live, July 15, 2002)), and while inside it, they COULD have left behind a drop of blood (and other evidence). I might have added that this is “reasonable doubt” that the blood was left there the weekend she went missing. I wouldn’t have phrased it the way you have, partly because I am trying to be neutral (so I’m trying to present the evidence WITHOUT drawing conclusions), and partly because I’m not convinced that there was a drop of her blood there: I find it suspicious that it wasn’t properly documented (Annette Peer, June 20) - I also find it suspicious that the forensic specialist was told there was something interesting in that area of the carpet (Karen LeAlcala, March 12). I could understand that a police officer might notice a large blood stain and direct the forensic specialist’s attention to it, but this one was TINY. 196.15.168.40 17:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
What the new article should look like.
Ok, so, this is what I've been thinking. To make the article neutral I think the following should be added/deleted.
In the first paragraph remove the entire stuff regarding the cookies, since it's hard to prove if he bought cookies once, twice, or three times. Westerfield and Brenda might have forgotten how many times they sold/bought cookies to each other. However do mention that, as a neighbor, he was acquainted with Brenda and Damon Van Dam. The rest is ok. The length of time his RV was parked is highly POV and doesn't deserve to be mentioned. To state the RV was sometimes locked or unlocked and the Van Dam children having access to it, is misleading. It is what I like to call "spin". That's what defense lawyers do, wikipedia is NOT A COURT ROOM. Another good reason for removing the cookies sales is the fact that the kidnapping didn't happen on a day they sold cookies to him.
The second paragraph looks pretty good. The rest of the stuff concerning when Westerfield entered the home and if he was trapped in a closet or not is way too detailed and unnecessary. The article is designed to summarize the case. And should a person want to know these details they can follow the links and/or read the court transcripts.
On the third paragraph, it should be stated that Westerfield and another neighbor were not home when the police started interviewing the neighborhood. The rest is ok. I agree that, currently, the article makes it seem like Westerfield was the only one and fact is he wasn't.
On the fourth paragraph, it should be stated that police found one blood stain on his jacket and another drop on his RV's carpet. The statement about the blood stain being faint is highly POV and doesn't belong in the article. The stuff about the blood not being photographed or measured should be included only IF you can provide proof law enforcement did not do those thing.
It should be mentioned that the autopsy report showed moderate decomposition and superficial mummification, but extensive postmortem animal feeding. It could not be determined if she had been sexually molested, nor could a cause of death be determined. It's a moot point to say there was no semen, because sperm doesn't survive on a death body for over 25 days. And if you can't tell she was sexually molested then it goes without saying that there wasn't any semen. You need one to prove the other and vice versa. In addition, Danielle was found nude and partially burned.
Include a paragraph 5, or extend paragraph 4 for information regarding the site where Danielle was found. It should be mentioned that the only links, between the dump site and Westerfield, were one dull orange fiber tangled in her hair and necklace, which was otherwise microscopically indistinguishable from many bright orange fibers in his house and SUV; and a number of blue fibers which were microscopically the same as ones in his house and RV. However, they were not tested.
Now the topic of the child porn. He was convicted of having child porn; end of story. You glossing it over by saying police only found 1% of the porn questionable is highly POV. If he got charged(and convicted of possession) for it, it's because he had a massive amount of it. Hell, he even had CD's of it.
Your paragraph regarding entomology is good, so state that entomology was a major focus of the defense; mention that 4 entomologist testified that the flies on Danielle's body laid eggs, sometime by mid February while Westerfield was being watched. But that's it. The stuff about Danielle - being alive or dead in his RV - so the dogs should have detected her is simply your interpretation/analysis. It is clear evidence that you want to try the case in here. How do you know the dogs would have found her scent? What if Westerfield preselected a site he could take her? I believe you're trying to cram your version of evidence to a reader. And don't accuse me of trying to do that either, this is the discussion area. I do not put my interpretations into the main article. And no kidding that the parents were cleared as suspects. You aren't telling people anything new here. They never got charged, so it's moot; keep the focus on Westerfield. The sex offender information is also needless.
Now to the notes. The note about Westerfield being a conservative is not something I put in. However, I do know for certain that Westerfield told the cops the suspect who murdered Danielle should be put to death. The second note about the defense trying to link the child porn to his son is true and shouldn't be altered. The third note should say something like: "During the trial, the prosecution portrayed Westerfield as a "peeping Tom" spying on his neighbors with binoculars". Statements from the neighbor or his former wife does not need to be included. The fourth note regarding suicide it should be mentioned that Westerfield later said he was joking about it. And that the police were depriving him of sleep.
The fifth note about the civil suit should be kept as it is. The sixth note about the Van Dams and their lifestyle should stay as well. For the seventh note, I propose that at the end it should be stated that neither the defense or the prosecution confirmed or denied this to the media. In the very last note it should be stated that Westerfield placed his finger in his niece's teeth and rubbed them when she was seven years old. And to even things out I think one of your notes should be included. Law enforcement were unable to find any evidence that Westerfield had been in Danielle’s home - no fingerprints, hair, DNA or fibers. However, your POV statement that that's why the judge didn't take the jurors anywhere(Van Dam home, dump site) doesn't belong in the article since you aren't the judge.
That's how, I think, the new article should look like. Many of your notes are verbose. For example, it doesn't need to be mentioned that Danielle and Westerfield were NEVER seen together during the weekend of the murder. Normally kidnappers don't walk around with a child they abducted. Also mentioning that his RV and home showed no signs a murder took place indicates very little if anything. The cause of Danielle's death was very likely suffocation or smothering. That's the easiest and cleanest way to kill someone. So, because the cause of Danielle's death was undetermined, it is safe to assume she wasn't shot or stabbed to death; both methods tend to leave an awful mess. Next, you say Westerfield didn't clean his RV as well as the police claim. How do you know? Did you inspect it too? Are you privy with regards to what the police examined when they tested the RV? Then you try to say some of the pictures on the computer were linked to Neal, which one's? The adult photos, or the photos of children? State which ones you think they were, because you make it sound like Neal looked at the kiddie porn. Well, until Neal Westerfield goes to jail for possessing child porn I don't think you should go around linking him to that type of garbage. Neal stated he looked at adult porn only. The scope of the child porn charge goes way beyond just the pictures from the internet. His father was the owner of the CD's containing child porn and he was the one who viewed the video of a girl being raped. That's not MY opinion it is a fact; a court of law determined that.
And finally, James Selby. I think it should be noted that he did write to the police and confessed to Danielle's murder in 2003. It should be mentioned that he has a violent history of sex offenses, but police don't believe his claim that he murdered Danielle. Selby's arrest warrant being granted on the day Westerfield was convicted is not important to the article.
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot, in the external links include the link to the San Diego Union Tribune special coverage of the Westerfield trial.
That's how the new unprotected article should look like. TripleH1976 Sun 10:56 p.m., 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Acknowledgment:
Thank you for your positive and constructive - and comprehensive - suggestions. You obviously put a lot of thought into them, which I appreciate. I will also put a lot of thought into my reply, which will therefore take a few days. 196.15.168.40 04:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Reply to TripleH1976:
First paragraph: (and first Note of revised version)
(I wasn’t the one who, on April 8, moved the cookies statements from the text into the Notes - and you moved them back again.)
The article might not need ALL the detail about the cookies, but your proposal goes too far. They were MORE than just acquaintances: the Van Dams had VISITED Westerfield, and they did so shortly before Danielle went missing, and that wasn’t the first visit either.
I don’t understand why you are disputing - or at least are uncertain about - the NUMBER of cookie sales: there was uncertainty and disagreement about the DAY of the last sale, but Brenda was very clear that there were TWO cookie sales (testimony, March 14 and June 6). We only heard about the gift wrap sale afterwards, and we don’t know how many of those there were, or of any other fund raisers. Nor do we know which and how many Van Dams visited him on those other sales, or to deliver the items and collect payment for them.
There wasn’t much physical evidence in this case (or at least evidence LINKING the suspect to the victim), and much of it consisted of Van Dam hairs and fibers in Westerfield’s environment. Their visits could explain ALL of it - in both his house and his vehicles (through primary and secondary Locard transfer). It could also explain the orange fiber tangled in Danielle’s necklace (if that matched the ones in his environment).
Brenda wanting to see his remodeled kitchen also has evidentiary value: she WANTED to go inside his house. If Westerfield really was a pedophile (or was fixated on Danielle), then he made remarkably LITTLE effort to attract potential victims.
Regarding your comment about the kidnapping not being on the day of the cookie sale: If someone who met her could be so infatuated by her that he would kidnap her the same day, then suspects would include anybody she met that day: at the passport photo shop, Post Office, and Mervyn’s (Brenda, March 14 and June 6) - and the new next-door neighbor, to whom she sold cookies Friday night (Joe Hughes, Union-Tribune, February 7, 2002).
I don’t know why you describe the length of time I said his RV was parked in the neighborhood as “highly POV”: perhaps you were influenced by inaccurate media coverage. For example, according to Court TV, it was Steven Feldman (the DEFENSE attorney), who said it was “often” there (Harriet Ryan, June 4 and August 7, 2002) - implying we should take that with a pinch of salt; and according to the Union-Tribune, the RV was only “sometimes parked in the neighborhood” (Alex Roth, August 22, 2002); it “hadn't been parked in the neighborhood for several months” (Alex Roth, December 12, 2002); Westerfield “usually kept his 35-foot motor home parked in a rural area of Poway ” (Alex Roth, June 27, 2002). In fact, it was mid-November - just two months before the kidnapping - that he started storing it there (Keith Sherman, testimony, June 12). Or perhaps you were influenced by the Prosecutor, Jeff Dusek, who objected to this information as “irrelevant” (March 14), to which the Judge replied : “Overruled. I find it relevant. ” And so do I. The Wikipedia article must not merely be a mouthpiece for the Prosecution.
In fact, Westerfield’s RV was parked in the street so much that the neighbors COMPLAINED: that’s why he had to find an alternative storage area, miles away, shortly before the kidnapping (Damon, March 14 and June 5; Brenda, June 6; Richard Brady, June 10; Mark Roehr, July 2). What I said about the RV sometimes being unlocked and open was ALSO based on trial testimony, mostly by neighbors (Mark Roehr, July 2; Stephanie Escadero, July 9; Christina Hoeffs, March 11 and June 12; Barbara Crum, June 12; Angela Elkus, June 13; Janet Roehr, July 2; Susan L., July 10; Christina Gonzales, July 9). And I don’t understand why you describe it as “misleading”: the children DID have access. We don’t know if any of them ever entered it, but they COULD have. How can a NEUTRAL article NOT mention this?
Once again, perhaps you were misled by poor quality - one might even say biased - media reporting. For example, although the Union-Tribune correctly reported that WITNESSES had testified to the vehicle being unlocked (Alex Roth, July 3, 2002; Steve Perez and Jeff Dillon, August 7, 2002), it MOSTLY stated only that the DEFENSE said it was unlocked (e.g. Alex Roth, August 9 and December 12, 2002). And Perez and Dillon NULLIFIED the witness testimony by promptly ADDING that Feldman “didn't point to any testimony that showed Danielle or her mother had been in the vehicle”. Court TV used the same technique (anonymous, July 2, 2002; Harriet Ryan, July 9, 2002).
If you want examples of spin, you need look no further than those media articles. One could say that I am not trying to put my own spin on the facts, but am trying to COUNTERACT the spin of others.
General point:
The article contains very little biographical information about Westerfield, it’s almost entirely about the case. I can understand that members of his family might not want to be mentioned because of the public anger against him, but it should at least have details of his patents, the medical devices he has developed and the benefits people have experienced as a result (Carmen Genovese, August 29; etc.), as well as personal information such as that he raised birds (e.g. Diane Hill, September 3; Lisa Westerfield, September 4), and viewed the stars at night during his trips to the desert (Dave Laspisa, July 8). 196.15.168.40 17:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Second paragraph:
I’m pleased you consider this paragraph “pretty good”. (I’m assuming you are referring to the revised version, which is TOTALLY different to the protected version.)
Regarding your sole criticism, there are only three-and-a-half lines about Westerfield being in the Van Dam house. As this is the actual kidnapping, and therefore of CONSIDERABLE importance to the case, I don’t see how it can be left out, and I would be interested to see how you propose shortening it. I would not be in favor of omitting the amount of time he was supposedly inside the house as that has evidentiary importance: such a long stay makes it difficult to believe that he didn’t leave any evidence behind. Even the REASON for that long stay - the return of Brenda and her friends - has evidentiary value, not least because it was PREDICTABLE. I DIDN’T include the theory that he hid in Danielle’s tiny closet, so I don’t know why you mentioned that. Nor did I say anything about the open doors, the alarms, the lighting, the dog, one of the female friends going upstairs to Damon’s bed, Brenda closing Danielle’s door without checking on her, the unidentified blood on her bed, the unidentified fingerprints and blood along the route the kidnapper would have taken her, the drag marks outside the house, the open gate, and so on. And someone else removed the details about the number of her friends (which I had corrected). So this IS a summary. And much of the testimony on June 5, 6 and 10 revolved around events in the house that night, with three of the four friends (plus, of course, Damon and Brenda) testifying about it.
(Now that I look at that long list of evidence in the Van Dam home, I think the article should be EXPANDED to include it. Reminder: nobody has yet informed me of the regulations restricting the length of articles and the amount of detail they can contain.)
I would make one very small change to my existing wording, and that is to add that Westerfield would have had to take Danielle back to his house ON FOOT. 196.15.168.40 04:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Third paragraph:
Once again I am assuming that your comments refer to the revised version of the article. As I have previously pointed out, there are factual errors in the third paragraph of the protected version, in particular Brenda not dancing with Westerfield, him being seen at a casino that weekend and giving his RV an intensive cleaning. You have not disputed this, and I presume you don’t want any Wikipedia article to contain errors.
You only have one comment on this paragraph, and it is favorable.
However, I’ve been thinking, and I wanted to share my thoughts: I am not necessarily saying that anything below should be included in the article.
The address of the other neighbor not home during the initial police search was given at the Preliminary Hearing (Johnny Keene, March 11), and I had never given any further thought to that: how far away was that house, who lived there, why were they away, when did they return? But I’ve now done some investigating. I think the house was three doors up the road from the Van Dams (the opposite direction to Westerfield), so it was on the route of the cookie sale earlier that week. I also think that it was occupied by a classmate and friend of Danielle’s (Joe Hughes, Union-Tribune, February 6, 2002). So if Danielle got up early Saturday morning, and left home to play with a friend - which was one of the initial theories - then it’s quite possible that that’s where she went.
My other thought was about something else Keene said: there was a vacant residence, with a “for sale” sign in the yard, next to the Van Dams. Now that is perfectly correct. But Danielle and family found someone there Friday night when they sold cookies, and Damon found someone there Saturday morning when he went looking for Danielle (Joe Hughes, Union-Tribune, February 7, 2002). So why did Keene mention it was empty: did the occupants leave soon after Damon came? Did they perhaps run out of paint? That would mean that THREE very close neighbors, all of whom Danielle was acquainted with, were missing.
Particularly interesting is that, on page 1 of Attachment ‘A’, search warrant 27818, it is stated that the house the police wanted to search had a RED tile roof (page 37 of document SCN_20030109152845_001, under May 7, 2002 on the list “Previously sealed court records”, Union-Tribune, January 9, 2003). That is true of the VACANT house, whereas Westerfield’s house has GRAY shingles. So was it actually the OTHER corner house they were interested in, or rather its new owner, the OTHER Dave, and there was a miscommunication? 196.15.168.40 11:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Fourth paragraph: and sixth paragraph of revised version
Again, your points are mostly favorable. And I am agreeable to the addition you have suggested, that the cause of death could not be determined.
The blood stain being faint is not POV: when the criminalist showed the photo in court, he could only point to the APPROXIMATE ___location of the stain (Sean Soriano, June 20). Why would he do that if the stain could be SEEN? (This was Exhibit 121. One of the photos shown in The Evidence sequence on Court TV’s website, near the end, must be of this scene. Can you see the stain on the jacket in that photo?) We must simply accept that it was there - which I’m sure you do, but I like proof, especially after it wasn’t seen by the dry-cleaner (Julie Mills, June 17); and the owner of the dry-cleaners, Sung Choi, said Westerfield didn't ask for any stains to be removed (Alex Roth, Union-Tribune, February 28, 2002). So I think that is important enough to warrant inclusion in the article, given that this was quite possibly THE most influential piece of evidence. And yes, I CAN provide proof that LE didn’t photograph or measure the RV stain: the criminalist, Annette Peer, ADMITTED this under cross-examination (June 20). The fact that I gave an EXPLANATION (or, rather, her weak excuse) for it not being photographed or measured - it could not be clearly seen after it was tested for blood - in itself suggests that I had proof.
And I also have proof of the other criticisms I made (not examined for blood spatter and perfect DNA match), which you didn’t mention. And I could have mentioned other problems as well, such as the jacket was booked into the cleaners under the wrong time and someone else’s name; and Detective Ott, who violated Westerfield’s rights, was a customer of the same dry-cleaners; and no one testified to seeing Westerfield wearing that jacket the entire weekend. All of which proves that my revised version of the Wikipedia article IS a summary, and does NOT resemble a courtroom.
I didn’t say there was NO semen but that none was FOUND. Sperm might not “survive” for so long, but I don’t believe that’s what’s important: Dr Blackbourne (March 11) merely talked about it being “detectable”. Sperm IN a body would decompose, but sperm ON a body COULD “last” (again using Blackbourne’s terminology), as it would dry and there was negligible rain during that period (David Faulkner, July 10; Neal Haskell, July 22). And the forensic people tested for both sperm and semen. (I said just “semen” in my edit in an attempt to be inclusive and concise, but perhaps to make it clearer I should change my wording to reflect that NEITHER was found.) And they didn’t test ONLY her body, in fact they tested “numerous” items (Kristen Green, Union-Tribune, June 21, 2002) - as I had indicated.
Molestation covers a wide range of activities, as can be seen in the article on child sex abuse, so it doesn’t necessarily involve semen. I would grant you that not finding any doesn’t PROVE there hadn’t been any, but it should cause one to pause: a sex-based case in which there was NO evidence of sex. Maybe they were looking in the wrong place. Maybe this wasn’t even a sex crime.
Although it is generally believed that Danielle’s body was naked, there is evidence to the contrary. According to the Union-Tribune’s initial report, her body was CLOTHED: it quoted an unnamed detective close to the investigation who said “The clothing looks like hers” (Steve Schmidt and Joe Hughes, February 28); the person who found her, Chris Morgan, couldn't tell if there was clothing (June 4); and neither could the first officer on the scene, Larry Alston (deputy sheriff) (June 4). I would add that, even if the body was naked, it wouldn’t prove a sexual assault: the clothing might have been removed before it was dumped to minimize the amount of evidence.
Although initial reports were that the body was burned (anonymous, Court TV, February 28, 2002; Karsten Heimburger, June 4; Larry Alston, June 4), this was just the discoloration caused by decomposition (Jim Collins, March 11; Norman Sperber, June 5).
Child porn. Your response is most revealing: he was convicted, therefore he was guilty. Presumably you are using the same “reasoning” with respect to the murder and kidnapping convictions. Are you of the opinion that juries NEVER make mistakes? And that NO innocent people have ever been freed after years in prison? But to return to the child porn in this case.
I would agree that whether an image is “questionable” or not is “highly POV” - though I don’t think that’s what you meant. Detective Chris Armstrong examined the computer images and didn’t find any child pornography (using his definition, which according to Watkins is prepubescent - which I find surprising) (James Watkins, March12). Armstrong wasn’t allowed to testify to his conclusion (Greg Moran, “Mudd given time line to unseal transcripts”, September 24, 2002, Document No. 19, document westerfield17.pdf, July 9, page7664) - even though Watkins was allowed to testify to his. FBI agents attempted to obtain a Federal arrest warrant for Westerfield for possession of child pornography, but the Assistant U.S. Attorney they consulted concluded that the photographs shown to her did not meet the Court of Appeal standard for lascivious conduct (page 85 of document SCN_20030109152845_001, under May 7, 2002 on the list “Previously sealed court records”, Union-Tribune, January 9, 2003).
A double rebuff, but Law Enforcement continued to pursue Westerfield.
Did you see any of that in media reports?
What did those “questionable” images consist of? The public didn’t see them - when shown to the jury, the TV monitor was positioned in an attempt to ensure that (George Clarke, June 25) - and few details were given. But two sets of images were described (Watkins, March 12). First was a rape CARTOON. Watkins was then asked if there were photographs of “real people, young girls”, upon which he described the set of photos of Danielle L., the teenage daughter of Westerfield’s ex-girlfriend, relaxing in a bikini in a jacuzzi and by a pool. The former is nasty and violent but hardly illegal; the latter are just ordinary FAMILY photos. Even three months after Westerfield’s computers and computer disks were seized, the media still reported only that the pornographic images included “cartoon rape fantasies” (Alex Roth, Union-Tribune, May 8, 2002).
(Yes, I know subsequent media reports implied that ACTUAL rapes of REAL girls were depicted, but based on the trial testimony, I am skeptical of those reports - so it was a MAJOR concession on my part to NOT challenge the Wikipedia article on that point. The wide range in the estimated age of the victim - from 7 to teen - does not instill any confidence in me in the reliability of those reports. When were the movies of actual rapes found? Or weren’t there any? The media was not very accurate. For example, in an anonymous article on March 12, 2002, and another anonymous article on June 3, Court TV reported that 64,000 pornographic pictures were found on Westerfield’s computers (in fact that was the total number of ALL pictures, not just the pornographic ones); and on June 25, 2002, Matt Bean of Court TV reported that “Watkins also found more than 200 video files” - he found more than 200 all right, in fact he found about 2600, again only a tiny proportion of which were considered “questionable”.)
“Questionable” can refer to either age or pose/activity (Watkins, March 12). Pose is highly subjective, and in this case, so was age: Law Enforcement apparently made no attempt to determine the ages of the people depicted, and the Prosecutor was careful to say “dressed like little girls” and “dressed to look like a young female”, rather than firmly state that they were definitely underage (Jeff Dusek, June 4). (So even if they were under 18, I seriously doubt they were as young as 7!)
According to the jury instructions (August 6), straightforward nude photographs of children are NOT unlawful if they were NOT “taken for the purpose of sexual stimulation of the viewer” - which is also highly subjective: how do you know what the PURPOSE of the photograph was? The jurors were free to use their imaginations. The instructions also state that “virtual depictions”, such as cartoons, are NOT prohibited.
Taking all the above into account, Westerfield’s conviction on child pornography charges was “highly POV”. If we were talking solely about a misdemeanor, then that might be acceptable, but this was the BASIS for his death penalty: would he still have been convicted of kidnapping and murder without the porn? Perhaps, but perhaps not. And the jury might have taken even longer than two weeks to reach their verdict.
But what is NOT “highly POV” is the 1%: that was the figure given by Watkins, the PROSECUTION expert (June 25). And the “massive amount” was just 85 still images and 39 digital movie clips (Watkins, June 25 and July 24; Rochelle Steinhaus, Court TV, June 26, 2002). 196.15.168.40 04:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
reply about first paragraph
Oh give me a break! Just because you invite someone into your home doesn't mean you're buddy-buddy with the person. The Van Dam's have never said anything to suggest they were more then just an a neighbor/acquainted with David Westerfied. He didn't come to there home for dinner every night. He didn't spend weekends and holidays with them. You're making a big deal out of Brenda wanting to see the remodeled kitchen. It's something done between two acquainted people, because they live so close by. How is it evidentiary value, when it never convicted him or exonerated him? The RV stuff is defense spin. To include that stuff in makes the article a mouthpiece for the defense. To say the kids may have had access is leading. I don't go out of my way to say he's guilty because a droplet of Danielle's blood was in the RV. I kept it neutral(the proposed version I suggest above) What more do you want? You want Westerfield to come out nice in everything? Don't pretend that you don't. I believe you are a family member of his, otherwise you wouldn't be doing all of this. You once mentioned the Danielle Van Dam article had the date of the body discovery wrong. You did nothing to correct it, however, you have done EVERYTHING to alter the David Westerfield article. I look at your contributions and almost all of them is invested in the David Westerfield article. Enough stuff is mentioned about his personal life. The article is about the David Westerfield the convicted child killer, not David Westerfied the engineer, a father, blah, blah, and blah.
Reply to TripleH1976:
You are exaggerating what I said. Westerfield and the Van Dams were only acquaintances, yes, but HE hadn’t been in THEIR house, and your revised wording is silent on the fact that THEY had been in HIS house - which even the protected version clearly states. That was the extent of my objection. It is important because hair that could have come from Danielle, and fibers that could have come from her house and bedroom, were found in his environment - house and vehicles (e.g. Rochelle Steinhaus, Court TV, June 26, 2002). How did they get there? If she and her family had never been in his house, it would be very difficult to explain, and would almost certainly mean that he was guilty of the crimes. But they HAD been in his house, recently and more than once. That’s why it’s so important that the article INCLUDE this - if it is to be neutral.
The importance of this evidence can be gauged by the following extract from a Court TV article (Matt Bean, June 25, 2002):
“According to police criminalist Melvyn Kong, who also specializes in trace evidence, none of the fibers found in van Dam's bedding and home matched the orange acrylic fiber. That the key fiber did not likely come from the most likely source - van Dam herself - could further link Westerfield to the crime in the eyes of jurors.”
That extract contains an ERROR. Kong (June 25) DIDN’T test fibers from ELSEWHERE in Danielle’s home, he ONLY examined her bedding (but curiously NOT a flat sheet - I believe that was used to scent the search dogs - Howard Labore, June 3, 2002, page 3256, document westerfield2.pdf, linked to the article by Greg Moran, Union-Tribune, September 24, 2002, Document No. 4). (Kong also examined the contents of their vacuum cleaners, but curiously he was looking for the earring backing and hairs, NOT fibers.)
This can also be seen from Court TV’s list, “Witnesses for the Prosecution” (the link to it is on their “Full Coverage” page), which ALSO contains an error, albeit a different one - and I’m not referring to the misspelling of his name.
So he did NOT exclude the possibility that the KEY fiber came from her own home, and the Court TV article was NOT justified in drawing that STRONG link between Westerfield and the crime.
And we also can’t exclude the possibility that those many distinctive orange fibers in Westerfield’s environment actually came from the Van Dam home, and were deposited in his house by them during the cookie sale. Remember, the SOURCE of those fibers was never found: if it was in the Van Dam home, and the criminalists weren’t looking there for it, then that would explain it not being found.
Trace evidence (hair and fibers) can be powerful in linking a STRANGER to a crime, but it has LITTLE value when there was known and recent CONTACT between the victim and the suspect, and I DON’T get the sense from media articles that the reporters took this into account (one would hope that CRIME reporters are at least aware of this factor).
Including ONE sentence about Brenda wanting to see Westerfield’s remodeled kitchen is hardly “making a big deal”. If you know of any evidence showing him actively seeking out victims - such as hanging around schools or participating in online chat rooms - then please inform us. The total absence of such evidence casts considerable doubt on the belief that he is a pedophile. Did the jury take this into consideration? I don’t know. But if they didn’t, then why not?
The “RV stuff” is FACT, not spin. I included only one-and-a-half sentences in the article, and this did NOT include stating that the children may have had access (in fact, they DID have access but I didn’t SAY so), and it did NOT include stating that Westerfield was innocent. In other words, I DID handle it in the same way as you handled the droplet of blood in the RV. If your argument is that readers can follow the links, then my response is that, by drawing attention to the children being unsupervised at times, and to the RV being unlocked and open at times - neither of which is mentioned in the protected version - the readers will realize the existence (and hopefully also, relevance) of these factors, and will then look them up in the links, where they can decide for themselves if that evidence creates reasonable doubt - otherwise it would likely never occur to them.
You may not have SAID he was guilty, but I don’t see how anyone, reading the protected version of the article, could come to any other conclusion. Neither would they be inclined to follow the links to learn more about the case - unless perhaps they were left scratching their heads wondering why the jury took so long to reach a decision in what appeared to be an open-and-shut case. Admittedly, the suggestions you have now made are a step in the right direction, and I thank you for that.
The fact that I left IN the porn - unlike you who removed everything - disproves your allegation that I want him “to come out nice in everything”: I am content with the truth, whatever that is, whether nice or not, whether I like it or not. Incidentally, I do think it was nice of you to include his explanation that he was accumulating it for the authorities: a lot of people would not have done so. (I haven’t checked old versions of the article to confirm it was you who included this, but even if it wasn’t, you at least allowed it to remain in.)
I am NOT a family member of his: I just have a passion for truth and justice. And I enjoy a debate: I think I’m rather good at it.
I had my hands full without also correcting the article on Danielle. I haven’t even studied that article, I just had a quick read. And with the strong adverse reaction to my corrections to the Westerfield article, I was not inclined to risk the same happening with Danielle, with consequent waste of my time. I suspected that someone else would correct that error in the body discovery date, and that is what happened: you fixed it. If that hadn’t happened, then I might well have corrected it myself, AFTER I had completed my improvements to the Westerfield article.
As I have previously pointed out, I have NOT done “EVERYTHING” to alter the Westerfield article: there are NUMEROUS other additions I could have made (I mentioned some in the Neutrality section), but didn’t make and didn’t even intend making.
I have already given (in the Length section) some arguments for a longer article, such as reviewing the use of entomology in court if it’s really as unreliable as it would HAVE to be (a 100% error!) for Westerfield to be guilty (unless he had an accomplice). Here’s another argument for a longer article:
How strong should the evidence be for the state to execute someone? (Or even imprison them for the rest of their life.) In the Westerfield case, there was public outrage over the crime, the police jumped to conclusions, they ignored evidence pointing away from him, and there is objective scientific evidence of his innocence. (None of that PROVES he is innocent, though it certainly points to it.) If the defendant were someone you knew, would you consider that sufficient to execute them? This debate therefore has far wider implications than just the Westerfield case.
It’s not true that “almost all” of my contributions are invested in the Westerfield article: ALL of them are. You make that sound a negative; I view it as a plus: I know the case very well.
The title of the article is “David Westerfield”, NOT “David Westerfield the convicted child killer”, so one CAN justify including more about his personal life. 196.15.168.40 06:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
reply about second paragraph
Just how long do you wanna make this article then? My God! This isn't a persuasion article. The evidentiary value is for the court. It doesn't have to be in here. We are not trying the case in here! What don't you understand about this? This case didn't get enough attention to warrant an additional article about evidence. And when I said the second paragraph is "pretty good" I meant the protected one. The fact you don't see a regulation restricting length isn't permission to make a long article because YOU think it deserves one. You are just using this to further your agenda. It is wrong. You're trying to lead and persuade people with statements like he had to take Danielle to his house on foot. This is clearly a leading statement. No one knows how the actual kidnapping took place, not even the police. It is speculation and it isn't correct to make one up for people. A wikipedia article is not intended for that. You speak of the article not being a mouthpiece of the prosecution, but understand the same goes for the defense.
I've suggested ways to make the article more neutral, and yet it is still not satisfactory for you. I clearly believe we will NEVER agree on what an appropriate article should look like. Therefore, the article should stay protected until you realize that you can not spin or make subtle persuasions so people can think Westerfield was wrongfully convicted.(personally, I think he was rightfully convicted) Till then Cya!
TripleH1976 SAT 10:24 p.m., 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Reply to TripleH1976:
When I began this, my sole goal was to correct factual errors. And I’m a stickler for accuracy. Then I realized that there were major omissions (specifically related to neutrality) which ought to be rectified. Both of which I did. (Put in other words, initially I was being totally reactive, but later I became partly proactive.) Once I’d had a chance to review the revised article as a whole, I might have made a few more changes or additions (or I might not). But basically, I was finished.
But by then you had intervened. And it was while replying to your points that I had more ideas. I don’t believe I have said that I WOULD implement those ideas, merely that they COULD be justified. I may or may not implement them, and even if I do, it won’t necessarily be straight away, that would depend on my other commitments and my priorities.
Just think: if you hadn’t suppressed ONE page of facts - only some of which you didn’t like - I wouldn’t have added a DOZEN pages of facts you don’t like (and I haven’t yet finished responding to your points). Not just facts about the case but also facts about the poor quality media coverage - something I’d been wanting to do for a long time, but hadn’t got round to.
In a recent response, I referred to the article on child sexual abuse. Study that. After listing the activities which constitute abuse, it states “The majority of experts believe that CSA is innately harmful to minors.” Then follows a long paragraph justifying that statement. The next paragraph begins with “Some studies have reached other conclusions about CSA.” That is followed by a long paragraph justifying the OPPOSING point of view.
Two paragraphs further on, the male/female victim experience difference is discussed, albeit much more briefly, and again TWO differing points of view are given. A little further down, TWO views are given about regressed offenders. And there are MORE examples.
That article was NOT about a court case, but it nevertheless gave a detailed presentation of DIFFERENT points of view. Which is all I am trying to do. A tabloid article would give only ONE point of view; Wikipedia is not a tabloid and I am aiming for a higher standard.
What you see as retrying the case, I see as high quality. Encyclopedia quality.
Evidentiary value is relevant to article length: something of high evidentiary value (whether for or against) should be included; something of low evidentiary value should be excluded.
The justification for extra length or an extra article would not be - or would not be primarily - the amount of attention the case got - though that was considerable in the Westerfield case - but would be the other factors I have mentioned, particularly the weight of evidence required to justify execution (or life imprisonment). And I would add another reason. The mere fact that the verdict is disputed SHOULD be sufficient reason to discuss the evidence in more detail.
You might consider the second paragraph of the protected version “pretty good”, but it contains factual errors (related to the number of friends), which I corrected, as well as information NOT about Westerfield, which someone else removed (for that reason). So you appear to be in a minority of one on that score.
This article shouldn’t be short just because YOU think that’s all it deserves. Your opinion would carry more weight if you would only address the REASONS I have given for it to be longer. To quote your own words, you are just using it to further your agenda: which is wrong.
If Westerfield didn’t take Danielle to his house on foot, then HOW did he get her there? Are you arguing that he parked his SUV outside the van Dam house, and neither Brenda nor any of her four friends that night noticed it there? Or do you reject the Prosecution scenario, and believe, for example, that she was only kidnapped several hours later? And/or was not taken to his house at all? The Prosecutor himself seems to suggest my “on foot”, when he said “and then walk to wherever you have to walk, and then take her down to Dehesa ” (Jeff Dusek, closing arguments, August 7), especially coupled with his statement “he goes out the back door, out the side gate back to his house” (August 6).
If the Prosecutor can make up a scenario, when the defendant’s LIFE depends on it, then why can’t I “make up” a scenario when all that will happen is that it will go on a web page as a very small part of an article? What I “made up” is purely a logical consequence of the Prosecution’s scenario. If you find it implausible (I’m not clear if that’s the reason you are objecting to it), then you should consider how plausible or otherwise the Prosecution’s scenario is.
You are quite right that no one knows how the kidnapping took place. That’s one of the things that disturbs me. It would have been far easier for a FRIEND of the van Dams to have kidnapped Danielle. They would have been more comfortable moving around inside the darkened house at night, they might have known about the alarm system, the dog might have been less likely to create a disturbance, and Danielle might have gone willingly with them. I would be much more willing to believe that Westerfield was the culprit if the Prosecution had argued that Danielle had gone outside early Saturday morning and then been snatched.
It troubles me when the Prosecutor ADMITS that he doesn’t know (and can’t prove) how, where, why and when (Jeff Dusek, closing arguments, August 6). It troubles me even more that the jury returned a guilty verdict, and decided on death, when it was so obvious that there were such ENORMOUS gaps in the evidence. I can’t help wondering if the community anger had something to do with their verdict. Little evidence, angry crowd, killing: what does that remind you of?
I have already said that I appreciate your constructive suggestions (though the fact that you were basing them on the protected version means they are not as positive as I thought). But I would point out that this is a DISCUSSION. Just as you found fault with my edits, you can’t expect me to just automatically accept your ideas. It is quite possible that we will never agree on what the article should look like - but it’s too early to come to that conclusion.
But one thing is certain: the article CANNOT stay as it is - I am of course referring to the protected version. There are factual ERRORS in it and that cannot be permitted to continue.
I am just presenting the evidence, without drawing conclusions. If that points to Westerfield having been wrongfully convicted, then so be it. We must face up to the truth, whatever that may be. If you cannot refute the evidence - as appears to be the case - then it is wrong for you to suppress it in an attempt to persuade people that he was rightfully convicted.
I had already guessed you believe Westerfield guilty - and are passionate in that belief. But I would have more confidence in your conclusion if your knowledge of the case were better. 196.15.168.40 04:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
196.15.168.40
You are a Westerfield apologist. If you are so concerned about accuracy you would have corrected the date Danielle's body was found in the article about her. Your sole concern has been with the Westerfield article. Why don't you check other articles, on subjects you know so well, and check them for errors? But, hey, maybe you edit other articles with another IP(LOL). Who says the verdict is disputed? You seem to be the only one disputing it or family members, which in all likely-hood you are. You probably came to wikipedia entered Westerfield's name and decided, since anyone can edit a wikipedia article, that you can use it as a platform to defend his unjust conviction <sarcasm> <sarcasm>. You turned it into a verbose article. Laced with your POV that only 1% of his porn was objectionable. Another of your POV statements that the Van Dam children were unsupervised. You know that for a fact? Not only that you place it right next to the statement his RV was sometimes locked or even opened. As if saying only the naughty Van Dam children could get into it then. The blood stain being faint is POV, because you didn't provide a picture of it. Therefore it should be seen as your opinion that it was faint. If it was indeed faint, back it up. How did Westerfield get around the darkened Van Dam home? Ever heard of a flashlight? Night vision goggles???? Joseph Duncan had night vision goggles and used them to stalk the Groene family last year. How did Westerfield know which room was Danielle's? Who says he went to it directly? Maybe he opened each of their rooms, and found that the one painted pink must be Danielle's. It's not rocket science. As for the dogs; the Van Dams' owned Weimaraner dogs. Although intensely loyal they are not overly aggressive. Maybe Westerfield took time to pet them, give them a treat - There are lots of ways to get a dog to think you're a good guy. Yes, the dogs barked but how was Damon Van Dam to know they barked because an intruder was in the home? It's common for dogs to bark even for no reason at all. Danielle's hair and fingerprints were in his RV. And don't tell me the RV was unlocked and accessible to the children; that is spin by the defense and setting up smoke screens. Did they find the other neighborhood children's fingerprints in the RV? If it was sooooo likely the neighborhood children sneaked into the RV lots of their fingerprints should be there. But, oh wait, of all the neighborhood children Danielle's fingerprints show up. And now she's missing. Danielle was 7 years old it would take a considerable amount of strength for her to open the door. Remember Elizabeth Smart? She was twice as old as Danielle and she went with someone, whom she barely knew. So you are erroneous to say a family friend is the likeliest that abducts a child. Like Elizabeth, Danielle was most likely threatened(with a gun or knife) to believe her family was going to be harmed if she screamed.
Anyhow your responses, much like your edits, are verbose and tired-some. I suggest you type less. You are wrong in saying the article was not neutral. I know of many users and administrators alike, who've read it and never found a reason to put an NPOV tag to the article. Until you came along that is, you, a Westerfield apologist. The article didn't mention anything blatant or derogatory about Westerfield. It was not sensationalized like a tabloid. The article never says or suggest Westerfield is a pedophile. The article states he had no criminal record. The article mentions he was a successful man. It never says Danielle is an angel and Westerfield is the big bad wolf. Furthermore, the article suggest it wasn't a quick verdict. Do the math; the trial ended August 8 and a verdict was announced August 21. I agree, the article should change but not to the extend you want. Yes, mention Westerfield came driving in his SUV. Mention that the RV was unlocked(unlikely that Danielle had the strength to open it and climb in but, whatever, if it makes the article more neutral put it in). Mention that someone did testify Westerfield and Brenda danced. A Drop the word "intense" and just say he cleaned the RV. And add all the other stuff I proposed. But I will fight tooth and nail to see the article isn't laced with your commentary and spin on the evidence. TripleH1976 Mon 01:43 a.m., 29 May 2006 (UTC)