Hi, thanks for your hard work! I hope my little contribution helped, if not, I'm sure you can modify it or replace it to form an even better article!
Andrew. Cycling is life...the rest is just details, right? :-)
I agree with that! Voltaire 01:16, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
could use some work
i think a few more things should be included, like the bob bicycle trailer, the transam and its origins in 1976, perhaps june currie (sp?) the cookie lady, more on the adventure cycling maps... i heard of an organization that is working to turn old unused railroad tracks into extensive bicycle paths... in short, there could be a lot more added.
CrazyGuyOnABike
This link has been reverted twice as "spam". I doubt that anyone familiar with the website would agree. In fact, it is referenced in parts of those sites that are already linked. In short, it is one of the best places on the web to learn about bicycle touring, through the experiences of hundreds of others.
If anyone disagrees, discuss it here before removing the link again. Walt 18:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Not spam, spam riddled. A large part of the linked page is adverts. Also, it was added by the site's owner, which is a no-no. Interestingly, I don't recall ever having heard of it before despite several years of active participation on bicycling newsgroups. Just zis Guy you know? 21:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- JzG, I've agreed with your edits before, but I'll have to disagree with you here. I don't see the ad-heaviness. There are four ads in a banner at the top. Regardless, the site has over 1,000 tour journals, so I think it clearly is a resource for those interested in this topic. And it is well-established, so this is not a case of trying to drum up traffic for a new venture. Can we agree to leave it?
- Honestly, I've found a lot of cycling groups full of new converts with no deep knowledge. And, most recreational riders are blind to things like touring, utility cycling, and recumbents :(read your page ;-) ). But, within its niche, this website is well known and respected. I hope you'll go back and look - it can be as addictive as WP! Walt 22:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Four at the top and a great bundle below, plus a number of links in the sidebar which look iffy. Oh, and the site owner sent me an incredibly aggressive email - how dare I infringe his right to promote his site on Wikipedia? Or something to that effect. Which never puts me in the best frame of mind. You have no idea how often we get anonymous edits adding links to articles, and those anonymous editors rarely, if ever, turn out to have added actual content. That pisses me off: Wikipedia is not a free advertising hoarding, people who contribute useful content get cut a lot of slack, but drive-by link posters do not. So if you're a member of his forum, do please go and tell him that he's being an arse - Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, and the external links are there to provide supporting references for information. If he's as knowledgeable as you make out he could make a contribution, instead of effectively asking people to go to his site instead of this one. WP:SPAM and the two guidelines linked under external link spamming are pretty unambiguous. Just zis Guy you know? 23:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- See combined response below Walt 01:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- (The following from edit conflict with [[User::RobinGoddard]]- I also indented it Walt 22:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC))
- I wish you would reconsider. It took me some time to learn to appreciate the website in question, crazyguyonabike.com. There is much more to the site than there might initially appear to be.
- In addition to the forums, there are many journals from around the world, as well as other features.
- In all respect, please take a little more time to take a closer look. The more you explore the site, the more you will see that it is much less ad-ridden than it might at first appear (in fact, the ads are a fairly recent and reticent addition, and they are relatively few and unintrusive), and it is much more than a forum site.
- I have visited many bicycle touring websites, for years, and have done a lot of touring, and this site is definitely one of the best on the web. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobinGoddard (talk • contribs)
- I have reverted it again as "spam", but the ad content is only half the problem. You may find it a very useful site, but that doesn't mean that it is an encyclopedic site that belongs on Wikipedia. Read WP:EL. Links should only be added if they have valuable information that does not belong in the article itself and if they are not trying to sell something. If the information in the link does belong it the article, it should be re-written (to avoid copyright issues) and added to the article. Forums and blogs are specifically listed as no-nos except in unusual instances.
- The idea is that we want our articles to be the best possible source of information on a topic, not a short article followed by a long list of links to other articles-- one might as well just google the subject and read the first dozen sites if we are going to assemble long external link lists. -- Mwanner | Talk 23:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Mwanner, I wish you would have held off reverting while we are discussing this. I won't undo it to avoid a war, but I would consider it a show of faith if you would undo it yourself. I feel that JzG and I are having a civil dialog and I hope you'll do the same.
- IMHO, the advertising guideline is being over-interpreted. This is not a commercial site. Lots of other sites linked from WP have ads, including those of major newspapers referenced for recent events. For blatant examples of link abuse, look at entries like Tricycle and Trikke. WP even has articles on lots of consumer products themselves. I appreciate the desire to improve WP, but I think this case is very close to the borderline (on one side or the other) and there are many worse examples to work on.
- I think that this site does add information which is not appropriate for WP, that is the on-the-ground experiences of hundreds of cycle tourers. Direct experience is invaluable for someone interested in partaking in this activity, but is clearly not encyclopedic. Please don't be distracted by the fact that forums, resources, and, yes, industry ads are offered - the purpose of the site is to host journals so that all may see them.
- The longer this goes on, the more people will be involved, and the higher the likelyhood that civility will be lost. Lets all assume some good faith when addressing each others' actions. I hope we can resolve this here without needing to go to a mediation forum.
I first started delving into this site three years ago, when it carried no advertising. I have since contributed two articles. From the time Neil somewhat reluctantly allowed ads, the site has not changed, either in spirit or in content. Not encyclopaedic? As far as touring cycling is concerned, by means of the wealth of knowledge of its contributors, it is truly encyclopaedic. Neil's ire is quite understandable: He's never been in it for the money. <user:Micktb>
- OK, I've self-reverted, as requested. Would someone care to explain the comment about "Neil's ire"?
- More importantly, could we have some examples of encyclopedic content from the site? Not stuff that bicycle touring fans think is great reading, but scholarly information on the subject? -- Mwanner | Talk 02:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps I can chime in here. The site has many journals, under the 'Journals' tab in the main navigation bar. However there are also articles, which are not necessarily written in a formal encyclopedic style but are nonetheless intended more as informational rather than accounts of some trip or other. You can see the articles by going to the home page, and then looking down the left pane to 'Journal Categories'. Under there, click on 'Articles'. In addition, I would posit that there is much information to be gleaned from the journals themselves - useful info about countries and regions that the authors describe with both words and pictures. Obviously I didn't design crazyguyonabike to be linked to from WikiPedia (in fact crazyguyonabike existed before Wikipedia) but I think the overall content of the site is such that it lends itself well to being seen as a useful adjunct to the WikiPedia entry for Bicycle Touring, and a worthy website for further study of others' experiences. Many people have come to bicycle touring thinking that they are too old or not fit enough to undertake large trips, but after reading the journals on crazyguyonabike they have realized that they too can achieve great things. If a source of information is to be useful, surely it should include at least reference to other wellsprings. Crazyguyonabike is not exactly the same as Wikipedia, but they surely sprouted from the same creative vein - let people tell what they know.
- Regarding the ads on the home page - there is a row of these shown at the top of the page, which is not an unusual format and doesn't take up an undue amount of space. I also list the latest ads further down the page. This was done because these ads are special - they are not supplied by an external network, but rather the system was totally home-grown by me. I went direct to companies in the bicycle touring industry, so all the ads are extremely relevant and even interesting to users of the site. I thought listing the most recent ones "below the fold" (i.e. at the bottom of the home page) would be a good way to let people know when a new ad had appeared. This follows in line with the format of the rest of the home page, which shows summaries of the new content in each of the major areas of the site.
- As for the source of my "ire", that arose from the heavyhanded way that JzG has handled this from the start, first by calling the site "spam riddled" and then persisting in this characterization even after attempts to disabuse him of this notion. We have exchanged emails, and obviously we differ on details but my overall impression of JzG is of someone who didn't bother to even give a cursory review of crazyguyonabike (witness his comments on "a number of links in the sidebar that look iffy" - these are shortcuts to journal categories within the site, if he had bothered clicking on any of them he would realize this). Also his comment that went "Interestingly, I don't recall ever having heard of it before despite several years of active participation on bicycling newsgroups" - this language clearly implies that crazyguyonabike is some kind of huge scam intended to deceive people, simply because he happens to not have heard of it on the particular newsgroups he frequents. These and other comments he has made (e.g. on the ads, in one of his email, he said "Feel free to remove them"), combined to raise my "ire", which I expressed on the Forums on crazyguyonabike. I feel this is a small matter that has been blown absurdly out of proportion, and while I accept that the policy here is to prevent site owners from posting links to their own sites (I was not aware of this, but now I am), what I object to mostly is the repeated characterization of "spam" that was given to crazyguyonabike. So decide whatever you like, I had simply thought to contribute something small to Wikipedia, but this entire exchange has merely served to make me extremely leery of ever again trying something so bold as to (gasp) add a link to a relevant site. Bye.<user:NeilGunton>