Paul from Michigan
Hi! I see you're new here, so I thought I'd mention that it's generally considered impolite to edit other people's talk page entries, no matter how much you personally dislike the content. I've reverted your edit to Talk:Mail-order bride because of that. Note that this doesn't apply to regular pages: articles are a community effort, and you should continue to feel free to edit them in any way you think improves the article. Thanks, --William Pietri 18:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
That's understandable. It is not the sexual content so much as the banality of the message. Editing and contributing to Wikipedia is very much an adult activity (reference to maturity as opposed to unsavory content!), and one should expect some frank talk on some subjects. So if someone talks about a sexually-charged topic that might be of wide interest (as in "District X of City Y is full of prostitutes"), then such information may be of value to persons who might desire to go to such places for personal gratification or to avoid such a place altogether.
The material that I deleted was not only a personal observation but a second-hand observation, one unverifiable. That it is of a sexual nature was not my criterion for deletion; I would delete accounts of such personal experiences as "I was at the World Cup", "I visited the Grand Canyon", or "I saw Jennifer Lopez". Big deal; none of those experiences are unique. If the experience has a rarity to the infrequency of the deed "I climbed Mount Everest", because persons who had such an experience are rare or "I heard Tsar Nicholas II of Russia give a speech" then to describe his rhetorical talents or lack thereof, or because one is the topic of an article on a celebrity, then one might have something to contribute. Indeed, I would be delighted to see people, particularly old give accounts of history as they saw it. Sex? Too banal. It hasn't changed that much, has it?
I saw plenty of other material in the talk section that offended my sensibilities, largely stereotypes of women or men of different nationalities, some on the brink of bigotry. If someone admits to seeking a mail-order spouse because of the reputation of someone from that country for sexual characteristics, domesticity, culture, or behavior patterns, then so be it. Bigotry and ethnic stereotyping are part of life, ugly as they may be.
--Paul from Michigan 22:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree that you should delete such material from articles, but editing other people's talk page comments is very rarely done. On talk pages, people talk, and barring certain dramatic issues like copyright violation, their efforts should probably be left to stand no matter how much they disagree with your personal tastes. No big deal in this case; I just wanted to explain why I was undoing your well-intentioned work and to keep you from getting in trouble. Regards, --William Pietri 08:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Lower Middle class
Hello, I read you recent edit to the Lower Middle class article I wrote, but have one question as your edit seems to contradict itself. First you state that the Lower Middle class has merged up into the middle-middle class. Then, however, you state that, "Clerical work that used to pay enough to support a family and define much of the lower middle class now offers at most a supplementary income that aids another adult family member who holds a low-paying job." How can the lower middle class merge upward into the middle-middle class if it looses pucharsing power as the result of low wages being outpaced by inflation? Regards, Signaturebrendel 04:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Good point. I was using the criteria of one of the more convincing authorities (Paul Fussell). I was speaking of the former American "lower-middle class" that comprised some highly-skilled white-collar workers (accountants, social workers, and teachers), a large category of workers with middle incomes who usually describe themselves as "professionals" (police officers, prison guards, firefighters, nurses), and clerical workers who used to distinguish themselves from "mere" workers by having completed high school. Accountants and teachers have become part of a somewhat-expanded middle class of white-collar workers with middle incomes. College degrees are now the norm for them, which used to not be the case. Some elevation in class for those who perform work that used to require less than a college degree but now requires a college degree seems reasonable.
Police officers, prison guards, and fire fighters experience obvious danger on the job; much of the work of nurses is blue-collar in nature. Their jobs pay well and offer economic security much as is so for skilled workers (Fussell's "high proles" who often out-earn members of the middle class). Such persons as foremen and other blue-collar supervisors are typically from the working-class world and rarely leave it. The alternative midht be to call the category of skilled workers "lower middle class", but that suggests cultural affinities with people who usually wear suits and ties (if men) and typically need college degrees to get their jobs.
Finally, the largest group of workers once associated with the "lower-middle class", the clerical workers, have -- unlike the accountants and blue-collar supervisors, lost the characteristics that once distinguished them from workers of little skill. Their incomes have fallen so dramatically from near the median, their work has become more mechanistic, and their job security has vanished. They are now subject to mass layoffs, and their subordinate role in life is broadcast at almost every turn. They are treated much like assembly-line workers in sweatshop factories, and they are paid so badly that their jobs no longer provide the basis of much of a living. Most clerks are effectively machine operators who have lost all discretion on the job (examples: keypunch operators and grocery checkers). Clerical work is usually a second family income that augments another (usually low) income.
In essence, the old American "lower-middle class" seems to have merged with (1) the real middle class as it gets college degrees. (2) skilled workers, and (3) semi-skilled workers. But as a catchall for people who must dress up for work and earn a middle income, it has become obsolete. Cultural and educational distinctions, once slight, between members of these components of a former large class of Americans have become sharp. Economic realities and working conditions among them have diverged severely.
- Yes, police officers and teachers are middle class espacially as college degrees become more common amongs these professions. But "the clerical workers, have -- unlike the accountants and blue-collar supervisors" are not middle middle class, but rather still lower middle class according to Weber - and according to what you have stated above, perfectly fit the lower middle class criteris with "incomes have fallen so dramatically from near the median, their work has become more mechanistic, and their job security has vanished. They are now subject to mass layoffs, and their subordinate role in life is broadcast at almost every turn." So, if I understand your point correctly, Fussell states that poice officers, elementry school teachers and nurses have risen into the middle class, while the other lower middle class professions those of clerical nature have fallen below the middle class treshold and are now working class. Is that correct? Thank you for your quick reply and contributing to Wikipedia! Regards, Signaturebrendel 06:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Again, it is Fussell and not I who make the distinction. He still puts police officers, prison guards, and firefighters in the "high prole" category (skilled workers) due to danger on the job and nurses, likewise, because they do heavy lifting. Such people are not inferior to the middle class (Fussell's category) in income, but any change in the class status of their work requires a major shift of their educational axhievements to push them into different careers. Perhaps in nursing the RNs are middle-class due to their education, in contrast to the less professional LPNs and LVNs.
Clerical workers have, in contrast, been terribly debased in the sort of work that they do, in the pay that they receive, and the respect that they get. When full high-school educations were not the norm, these clerks had something to distinguish them against those who worked in factories as laborers. Now almost all of them have jobs run by machines as if they were on assembly lines. The job security that clerks used to have is no more, and for many the abandonment of the hope that clerical work offers a ladder of success leads them to improved economic conditions as factory workers.
Weber was right about the existence of a 'lower middle class', one that could improve itself through thrift and earnestness when he wrote about the classes. Those times are past. The clerks have been proletarized as completely as workers in the nastiest of sweatshops.