Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

For the similar process page for good articles, see Wikipedia:Good article nominations.

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page. Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators: actionable objections have not been resolved; consensus for promotion has not been reached; insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or a nomination is unprepared. It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support. Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed. An editor is normally allowed to be the sole nominator of one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. An editor may ask the approval of the coordinators to add a second sole nomination after the first has gained significant support. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback. Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere. A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}. Table of Contents – This page: Purge cache

Shortcut WP:FAC Featured content: Featured articles ← Featured lists Featured pictures Featured topics Featured article candidates (FAC): Featured article criteria Featured article log Featured article statistics Featured article review (FAR): Archived FARs Former featured articles Unreviewed featured articles/2020 Today's featured article (TFA): This month's queue About Today's featured article Recent TFAs and statistics Current TFA requests Potential TFA requests TFA oddities Most viewed TFAs Featured articles yet to appear as TFA Script to track TFA recent changes Featured article tools: Mentoring for FAC Nominators of featured articles promoted Recent changes to featured articles Random featured article

Nominating How to nominate an article Nomination procedure Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead. Commenting, etc Commenting, supporting and opposing Supporting and opposing Shortcut Wikipedia:FACSUPPORTOPPOSE To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process. To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria. To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive. To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice. For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems. Specifically, a semi-colon creates an HTML description list with a description term list item. As a result, assistive technology is unable to identify the text in question as a heading and thus provide navigation to it, and screen readers will make extra list start/item/end announcements. If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.

Add new nominations on top, one section per nomination.

Nominations

Google

This is a huge article, with stuff about the company, the technology, the controversy and more! I think this would be a great Featured Article!--Gamingboy 15:07, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

• Object. Needs much longer section about criticism, particularly criticism about G-Mail. Also, needs section about holiday logos. And those inline external links need to be removed. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 15:21, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

Casablanca (movie)

Self-nom. I think it's fairly complete, but I'll try to correct any problems. Markalexander100 07:57, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support, a quick look shows it rather complete. --Gamingboy 14:52, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

FC Porto

Very well done. Short and concise. Great info. Great presentation. Joao Campos 04:43, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object. It's 90% list and the description is short and poor. →Raul654 05:06, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

Oppose. The article is too brief for such an illustrious team as FC Porto. How about picking up several memorable games? The entire latter half is a list of its archievement and not really organized. For example, "Famous Players" is not even alphabetized and many players simply have their nicknames listed. A man like Deco can be left as he is, he is well known with that name, but who is Diego? There must be a lot of football players named Diego and it is very confusing. Revth 05:18, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• In addition to the remarks by Raul and Revth, I can add that this article doesn't discuss the other sports from this club, apart from a brief mention in the lead section. So either this article should be renamed to FC Porto (Football) or so, or the other sports should get a better treatment. Regarding the objection from Revth: I do think Diego is accurate, since that is simply the name by which he is known (just like Pelé, Ronaldo, Romario or Deco). Jeronimo 07:45, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Vivien Thomas

I think he's got a really a great story, one that hasn't been told very much, and this article does a pretty good job of telling it. I found a fair-use picture to use with it as well. --Fastfission 20:43, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object for now. Interesting story and fairly well told. The article is just about long enough, but I suspect it could be longer.

1. Some section headings would be nice.
2. The mention of his work on 'causes of medical shock' should be moved from the lead parra and discussed in more detail somewhere in the body.
3. The lead section should then be reworked to give a better summary of the article.
4. 'Thomas did not operate on Eileen' - I'm guessing that without actually being qualified as a doctor, it would have been illegal for him to do so. This should be mentioned.

It's really here nor there, it was really Blalock's work to do anyway (Blalock being the surgeon), and anyway they would not have let him operate on a white patient anyway (and I doubt Thomas would have even tried).

1. There is mention that a 'medical reporter picked up the story' on curing Blue Baby syndrome at the time, but it is not clear that the reporter was aware of Thomas' involvement, or publicised it.

I'll disambiguate this. The medical reporter picked up the story from JAMA, which as it notes, did not mention Thomas at all, so her publication did not benefit Thomas directly (primarily it benefitted Blalock).

1. On pay disparity and the wearing lab coats - was the issue that Thomas was black, or that he wasn't qualified as a doctor, or a bit of both. Reading between the lines Johns Hopkins University may have used rigid pay scales and could have found it difficult or impossible to pay a technician more.

It's that he was black -- the idea of a black man in a (technician's) lab coat is what drew stares from strangers; they did not know his qualifications one way or another. There's no evidence that the issue of salary had to do with not being able to pay him more.

1. But my biggest question would be how does this story relate to the wider experience of black doctors or medical professionals. My ignorance, but were there _any_ black doctors in the United States in the 1940s?

Yes, of course, but they had a lot of difficulties. They of course did not work on white patients, and often were regulated to those black patients who could not afford white doctors.

Hope that helps. -- Solipsist 06:45, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it does, thanks! --Fastfission 14:30, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Water

(self-nomination) This article covers a lot of ground (or should I say "water" ?), and anybody can learn something from it. Pcarbonn 15:10, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose: none of my suggestions were even commented on in peer review. Specifically, I'm confused with the diagram. What does it mean? Could you add more information onto the actual image itself? Could we also fix up the 1 sentence paragraphs? Some of the paragraphs could be fleshed out, say for instance "The Mpemba effect is the surprising phenomenon whereby hot water can, under certain conditions, freeze faster than cold, even though it must pass the lower temperature on the way to freezing." - give a bit more info (not the entire article it references, just some more info to make it more complete). Also, the history seems tacked on as an afterthought. I mean, there's water->History->Mythology and water->Water in practice->Water in religion... get my drift? Otherwise, this is a really well researched, well-written article! I would be happy to support it if you can sort out these things (especially a structural organisation). - Ta bu shi da yu 16:26, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Woops ! Somehow I lost your feedback in peer review. Sorry for that. I think that some of your objections have been fixed. Still working on the others... About "expanding 1-sentence paragraph": I'm afraid that the article would be much too long if we did that. It's already quite long as it is. What do you think ?Pcarbonn 16:53, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support: Very good article. I just re-arranged a bit, joke section & religion - hopefully an improvement. Always work to be done, red links ... etc. --Vsmith 16:38, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object--until the following fixes are made. 1) The Mpemba effect does not belong in the "Water properties" section--because it is not clear what water property causes the Mremba effect. Perhaps you should move the Mpemba effect to a section "Oddities about water." 2) What do you mean by "Water in practice"? This heading sounds like "Communism in practice" as compared with "Communism in theory." Come up with a better heading, please--Maybe something like "Water in everyday affairs." 3) The anthropic principle has no place on the Water page. Take it off. The special properties of water apply to all lifeforms--not to just to anthropoi men. 4) The content of "Systematic Nomenclature and Humor" has nothing to do with the Physics and Chemistry of Water. So you might move it to "Oddities about water." 5) Fire, air, earth, and water is not mythology. That theory by Empedocles was "the theory" used by Aristotle to explain the difference between water and wine. Empedocles's theory was an early form of the idea that matter was formed from unseen elementals that were not created and will never be destroyed. [1] Perhaps you should retitle this section as "Water in early philosophy." 5) The order of the First section (which I will call "Water in everyday affairs") does not make sense; the sections are disarranged, with no logical order. Perhaps you could reorder this section to fix it by sequencing the sections from personal data toward Universal data to give the following order: Forms of water, Water properties, Water in life, Drinking water and politics, Domestic and industrial use of water, Water on earth, Water in the universe. I like the potential of this article, and I think you have done a marvelous job of making this a very interesting page. Congratulations! ---Rednblu 20:28, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object: The article's organization seems very focused on chemistry. I think that someone with no chemistry background would get through the introductory paragraphs of the article, and then founder on "Forms of Water". The chemical information is definitely important, but I think that there's a lot more that can be said -- I think information about the ecology, biology, etc. might want to go first. I think that you should split the "Properties of Water" section -- some of the basic information would be appropriate at the beginning of the article, but things like electrolysis, the Mpemba effect, and other chemistry-specific information would be better later. Also, I think that having one of the photographs at the beginning of the article, and pushing the box of chemical information farther down the page, would make the article easier to read. Basically, remember that many of the people reading the article aren't going to be physicists or chemists; technical information that most readers won't be interested in should be sectioned off, or even put into its own article (Chemical Properties of Water, perhaps) -- Creidieki 01:28, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Shouldn't "Water in religion" and "Water in mythology" be merged? -- Emsworth 02:10, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object - This subject should be a feature article, but at the moment it shows strong signs of committee editing. Too much of the information is in short single fact sentences. To be considered best writing, many of these factoids should be grouped together and discussed in a more flowing style. I agree with many of User:Rednblu and User:Creidieki's comments, but:

1. The anthropic principle should be mentioned in relation to the properties of water around 4°C. The problem is that too much of the rest of the article focuses on extraterrestial water. In particular, way too much in the lead section.
2. The Mpemba effect: in or out - I could go either way. Perhaps in a 'see also'.
3. A picture of an ocean, or waves crashing on a craggy shoreline would be good.
4. The pictures are moving around, but I would have thought a pic or a reservoir would be better than the shower.
5. Talking of showers, there is almost no mention of the use of water for washing and cleaning, except in the religion section. That's a little off.
6. Talking of reservoirs, why no mention of them or aquifers or anywhere else we get our water from. Or bottled water.
7. History section is rather poor. Could be good to merge the religion and early philosophy subsections, along with various views on water as a life force. Similarly should discuss spiritual associations attributed to rivers and springs. E.g. Nile, Gangees and Sulis.
8. No mention of the recreational use of water.

Of course, if you put in all these ideas, someone would say the article is too long and it has already had various sections split out. -- Solipsist 07:56, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Occam's Razor

After nearly three years of editing, this should be a featured article. The article's recent history is somewhat disappointing, however. --[[User:Eequor|η υωρ]] 15:05, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose: the table of content looks like a mess. Pcarbonn 15:13, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose for same reason as Pcarbonn. Could do with a reorganisation. - Ta bu shi da yu 16:28, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Nothing Else Matters

Nominated by Army1987 →Raul654 19:51, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

• No explanation for why this should be considered? I personally think it's too short, it has one sentence paragraphs (my own personal bugbear) and it has no image. Incidently, I'm a fan of the song, not that this should come into consideration. Oppose. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:44, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. There are far better song articles on Wikipedia and this article, while not bad, doesn't live up to the standard set by them. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 18:47, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. Not interesting. Dunc_Harris|☺ 19:37, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose, for the same reasons listed above...too short, not interesting, etc. ~ FriedMilk 19:52, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Albert Einstein

Very important physicist. By the Time magazine choosed as Person of the 20th Century. Actually a idol of the public. --ThomasK 13:39, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Not a vote, but the table of contents seems like quite a mess. -- Emsworth 14:27, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose, needs more work. GeneralPatton 14:32, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support: Looks like a well organized work to me. TOC looks fine - don't see "a mess". Everything in wiki always "needs more work". I like it.--Vsmith 16:50, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Not a vote. The headings are a bit confused because most of the assesment of his acedemic work is fitted into his personal biography. When the discussion of his theories is given a section seperate to his early/middle/final years I'll support. Neutral for now. Cyopardi 22:45, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Helicobacter pylori

Captivating pictures, interesting article. Chadloder 21:54, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. However, a brief glance at this page shows that the popularity of the subject counts more than the thoroughness and quality of its treatment. Wetman 22:01, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support, although I agree, the Popularity is very much in question.--Gamingboy 22:27, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Cag pathogenicity island? cagA? Tell us what they are, and I'll support. Markalexander100 05:19, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dog

The dog article is great and should be a featured article. We have a article about mixed breed dogs already, but this is a great article too.--Gamingboy 21:51, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. With regards to the references, they were originally also further reading. Which was a reference, and which should be general reading? Which parts of the article were references via these books and journal articles? Aren't their other excellent dog books that people can recommend? Also, the quotation seems incongruous to the story. Should this be there at all? Incidently, I don't mean to sound very negative about this article. It's a great article, and I in particular was impressed by the bit about chocolate and dogs. I had no idea! I'd really like to give my support to this article... :-) Ta bu shi da yu 12:48, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• object. excessive number of sections containing only one paragraph --Jiang 05:19, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object. 1) The lead section doesn't give an overview of the article, but only discusses the use of the word "dog", the formal name, and some other names. This should be a section on use of the word, and the lead should give an overview. (Also, "Dogs as well as cats are often kept as pets." should be changed; there's no reason for mentioning cats here and not mentioning rabbits, goldfish or other pets). 2) The "Ancestry and history of domestication" fails to explain the differences between wolves and dogs. There is nothing about how the dogs were domesticated, and if it only happened in Europe, or also elsewhere (and it seems incorrect to conclude that one grave in Denmark makes dogs important all over Europe). 3) Dogs refers to domestic dog (according to the lead), so what it this discussion about living in packs? 4) "800 being recognised by national dog clubs". This is a world-wide encyclopedia, not a national one. 5) What about naming some breeds? Is there a "List of dog breeds" article to refer to? Surely at least some examples can be mentioned? Also, how did these hugely differing breeds (from chihuahua to Danish Dog) came to be? 6) There is no discussion of what a dog looks like. This may be straightforward, but I don't think any animal article can do without a good description of the animal in question. 7) As Jiang points out, there are several sections with only one paragraph. Most of these topics need either more information on them, or they can be merged with other sections. 8) The quotation is perhaps best moved to WikiQuote. 9) I miss a dicussion of the place of dogs in modern society. Problems and topics such as dog doo, stray dogs, dog asylums, people leaving their dogs behind when going on holiday, dangerous dog breeds being outlawed, etc. Jeronimo 07:17, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Mary II of England

Yes, it is short, but Mary II was not, in reality, the ruler of the realm; just about everything was done by her husband. -- Emsworth 19:10, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support, but I think a few details should be changed. Her husband was not "the stadtholder", since he formally was only stadtholder of 5 of the 7 provinces of the Netherlands (although these provinces included the most important one, Holland). I would not call him a "Dutch Prince" either, since the Netherlands had no royal lineage at the time, and the principality of Orange is in fact in France. The stadtholdership became inheritable during his reign, though. I'll leave it to you to include these minor points or not. Jeronimo 07:37, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

History of Australia before 1901

An extremely good overview, excellent prose and as far as I can see doesn't appear to miss many things. - Ta bu shi da yu 15:04, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object. 1) No picture. 2) It's pretty weak on the post-1820 period, with the gold rushes and the important birth of trade unionism getting about two paragraphs and two sentences respectively. 3) It doesn't mention federation at all. 4) It's fairly long, and particularly if the later period was given as detailed coverage as the earlier periods, is likely to need breaking down into a series of smaller articles. 5) No references. Ambi 15:12, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• 1. & 2. So noted, I request this article to be placed in peer review for assistance. 3. Federation is in the article History of Australia since 1901. 4. Good idea. Again, on to peer review. 5. Will look through history and start messaging contributors for references they used for the article. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:53, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I think it might be worth taking this off here, and trying to rebuild it as a larger project, as the Americans have done. I've been interested in doing it myself, but haven't got around to it. The timeline was my first step there, and if you do decide to break it up (time constraints willing), I'll do my very best to help out. And just a note about federation: federation itself might have happened in 1901, but it was a major issue for at least the decade before that, with numerous conventions, referendums, etc. I can't see how any history of Australia that ends in 1901 could be complete without mention of the whole leadup to federation. Ambi 13:33, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Hmmm. It could be that the whole history of Australia needs to be totally reorganised. Dividing it by date this way does seem fairly dopey. What's the procedure for moving this nomination to peer review? - Ta bu shi da yu 14:46, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Remove it from here and add to Wikipedia:Peer review? ;) Ambi 05:08, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Abbey Theatre

Self-nom. This is the Abbey's centenary year. Filiocht 08:57, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support wholeheartedly. Superb work! zoney ♣ talk 09:06, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support 100%. A nitpick, but could you add the publisher of the books you referenced? Good work though! - Ta bu shi da yu 09:08, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Done. Filiocht 09:13, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Good work, excellent article. Ta bu shi da yu 14:55, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Ambi 15:16, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support Kiand 15:19, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Oh so very much. —Rory ☺ 15:32, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. There are a lot of red links, though. func(talk) 15:25, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

James II of England

-- Emsworth 01:30, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Zerbey 16:48, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Ta bu shi da yu 12:21, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ok Soda

Self Nom. The images are fair use, but analagous to the images in the Coca-Cola article, which was featured a few weeks ago. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:30, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Well, since what you put up here was initially a red link and I had to create the redirect to OK Soda (the real article) myself, my first question is whether all necessary redirects from similar variants have been created. Also, I dislike the long bulleted list of testing areas, which gives undue prominence to what seems ultra-trivial information. But the real problem is that the article feels unbalanced, weighing heavily towards the marketing part of the story and providing only skeletal information on other subjects. I realize some of the needed context may be buried in the corporate vaults, but if the article is truly about the soda and not just the story of a GenX-marketing flop, then it's too incomplete to be featured. --Michael Snow 21:29, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oops, thanks for fixing the link Mike. What subjects other than marketing and history do you think are relevant? --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:56, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

Well, here are some questions the article triggers in my mind that might be interesting to explore and could broaden the context of the article:

1. What exactly does "did not test well" mean? Did people dislike the taste? Were sales in the test markets disappointing? Did the drink appeal to the "wrong" demographic vis-a-vis the ad campaign?
2. Does this episode play any significant part in the history of the Coca-Cola Corporation? For example, did it precipitate an organizational shakeup or did anyone get fired?
3. A variety of other niche drinks (Jolt Cola, Red Bull, etc.) have emphasized higher-than-normal caffeine levels with varying success. Did this play any role for OK Soda - did it have extra caffeine, did it try to market on this issue, would any of this have helped save the idea?

I guess in terms of balance, it bothers me that the article has multiple second-level headings, one of which (marketing) is very long and has several subheadings, while the others are all two or three sentences. And marketing isn't even the first one presented, with the rest as afterthoughts. --Michael Snow 04:14, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:18, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dabbawala

This article is well-written and informative, and a great example of the sort of insight into other cultures that make Wikipedia a joy. DJ Clayworth 15:51, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object. Interesting topic, but the article's not of FA-standard. 1) POV (e.g. "would baffle anyone") and several difficult to verify statements ("a very nominal fee"). 2) Picture has no source or copyright information on it's image page; it could be copyrighted judging by the caption text. 3) No references (there apparently has been an article in Forbes magazine at least) 4) Use of non-standard bold for "Forbes" and "Six Sigma" 5) The article's short and - more important - misses vital information, f.e.: is this a job only occurring in Mumbai, or also elsewhere in India? When did these Dabbawala's first occur? Is the need for Dabbawala's still growing, with freezers and microwave ovens making it much easier to cook food at an appropriate time? Etc. Jeronimo 21:56, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fanny Blankers-Koen

Self-nomination. I nominated this article before (see [2]) , when it was only rejected because of the lack of a (decent) image. I now added one which I think is fair use, but I'm not at all sure about this. Please have a look. Jeronimo 17:45, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. I could not stop reading. Denni☯ 01:17, 2004 Sep 17 (UTC)
• Support. I agree with Denni. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:18, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object, on the grounds that the three footers at the bottom are ill defined and too bulky. Convert them into categories. The relation among the women are too minimal. --Jiang 02:14, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • These footers have been added to many articles already, and I think they add interesting information to the article. The relation between the women is similar to that of the countries of a particular continent, clubs of the MLB and several other topics that have similar footers. I could make them less "bulky" by giving them a smaller font size, just like f.e. the country templates. Would that be sufficient? Jeronimo 06:51, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• It's a tricky one. I like the information they give to the article, but they do look kinda bulky. Not sure how you'd fix this, maybe the reduced font will work. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:18, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• That would help, but I still believe the listing would be better served with a category. It would only be just another click away. Countries of a particular continent often share similar cultures and have to deal with each other more frequently. These women won in different years and could have never met each other. What does a category fail to accomplish? --Jiang 07:42, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

* 1) I don't like categories. For example, I could put Fanny Blankers-Koen in: athletes, track and field athletes, female athletes, Dutch athletes, Olympians, Olympic medallist, Olympic 100 m champion, died in 2004, lived in Amsterdam, and so on and so on. While this may be ridiculous, I've seen several of such category schemes develop. But that's another topic. 2) If your complaint is that such footer templates shouldn't exist because there's no relation, I think most of these can be removed. Really, what do Belgium and Bulgaria (Europe template), Canada and Turkey (NATO) or Uruguay and the British Virgin Islands (Americas) have in common? It's not much more (or less) than Fanny Blankers-Koen and Marion Jones. 3) I agree that having three of these templates makes it a bit ugly, yes. So, I'll remove these templates from the article, since I'd rather see the article being featured than having the article with the footer buth without featured status. Jeronimo 21:23, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Other bad templates existing certainly does not constitute some sort of excuse for these bad templates. I've put these bad templates on WP:TFD; I suggest you do the same for those bad templates - David Gerard 21:51, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• I'm not doing anything with these templates save from removing them from this article (already done). The whole topic is confusing. Reading the article on article series boxes, it seems that these footers ARE appropriate here. I can answer all four questions with "yes". However, I don't want to be involved in a debate about these or other boxes and categories, just in a debate about this article. There are no boxes in it now, so I'd like to continue with other issues with the article (if any). Jeronimo 06:57, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Ambi 15:18, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object while those footer boxes are templates. As per Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes, they're all natural categories. I realise this will require the article to be pending here while it's dealt with on WP:TFD - David Gerard 21:22, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fair use

It's an interesting part of copyright law, and very well written. It's referenced on a ton of our images, also! - Ta bu shi da yu 13:32, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object. A comprehensive and well-written document, but of limited interest to those not associated with Wikipedia. Denni☯ 01:21, 2004 Sep 17 (UTC)
  • i dont see much self-referencing so i don't see a legitimate objection. having "limited interest to those not associated with Wikipedia" doesn't sound like a reason. --Jiang 02:16, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • This objection is not actionable, and is therefore invalid. →Raul654 03:00, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • I disagree, it's not of limited interest to those outside of Wikipedia. It's of great interest to those who use websites, encyclopedias, publish quotations for criticism, etc, etc. If it's comprehensive and well-written, how do you want me to action this? - Ta bu shi da yu 03:10, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object. This article concerns a facet of law in the United States. The title should either reflect this Fair Use in United States Copyright Law, or the article should cover similar doctrines in other countries (such as fair dealing in the UK....) GWO 15:08, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I don't understand... is there a country other than the U.S. that has fair use legal doctrine? If there is, then this is a fair and valid objection. If not, then I don't see the point of moving it. - Ta bu shi da yu 15:15, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • The first sentence of the article - "The fair use doctrine ... provides for limitations and exceptions to copyright protection in the United States. - would seem to suggest that it is limited only to the US, in which case this objection is just plain silly. →Raul654 22:14, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

Tintin

I came across this today. It is in my opinion very well written and inclusive, and I cannot find any problems with it. {Ⓐℕάℛℹℴɴ} 09:30, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object, regrettably (I like the article, it needs improving). Specifically:

1. Shouldn't this be under "The adventures of Tintin", with a redirect to "Tintin"? It's not primarily about the character Tintin, it's about the comic book series. The bolded text in the lead section bares witness to this.

Agreed. But I do not think enough could be said about the character Tintin to merit an article: he is too good to be interesting! {Ⓐℕάℛℹℴɴ} 14:19, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Can't be moved, should be done by an admin. {Ⓐℕάℛℹℴɴ} 14:34, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

2.The lead section is written in two sentence paragraphs. Perhaps this could be coalesced into a single paragraph to give only the bare essence of the article with a few relevant interesting "gee, that's interesting" facts thrown in. Any other extraneous information could be (and in fact probably should be) distributed into the story.

3. Tintin#Tintin The first sentence should not be the lead sentence, as it looks awkward when you read this and then read the next sentence. When I first read it I thought I was reading repeated information (which I hadn't - this was only my initial impression). In fact, it should not be a one sentence paragraph as this is not well-written prose.

I hope this is better as I've reorganised some of the text. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:57, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

4. Tintin#Captain Haddock - same as comment above.

5. Tintin#Professor Cuthbert Calculus (Professeur Tryphon Tournesol) "It's widely admitted that the Calculus character was inspired by Auguste Piccard" - who admits this? Herge, or others?

6. Tintin#Thompson and Thompson (Dupont et Dupond) "They also provided the name for 1980s synthesizer band The Thompson Twins — who had three members. Ironically, their characters were based on his actual father and brother, both of which wore matching bowlers." Say what? the band's characters of the Thompson Twins were based on "his" (who's?) father and brother... I think you get my drift.

Very good points. I've made some edits to try and address them. {Ⓐℕάℛℹℴɴ} 14:19, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I appreciate your attempts at modifying the text, but there are still one sentence paragraphs here. Could you expand the text somewhat or rewrite this prose to remove these? - Ta bu shi da yu 12:01, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

7. Surely we can have more pictures? I'm not saying use gratuitous amounts of images... I'm just saying some good scans images of the characters would be good. For instance, an image of Thompson and Thompson in full "native" gear would be amusing and illustrative. In humour you could (possibly) add the bit where Thompson and Thompson win the an air stunt race accidently... all illustrative of the points in the article.

And presumably all copyright? Filiocht 12:49, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Not under fair use, however we'd need to make sure that they were for educational purposes, don't detract from or devalue the original work (unlikely), and also transform that original work into our own original material. So good captions are a must. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:09, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm very nervous about the idea of claiming fair use outside the USA. And Tintin is definitely that. Filiocht 13:13, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, hate to tell you this, but the image of Tintin and Snowy on the page is marked as fair use. I was forced to mark it as this because the French Tintin image was marked as fairuse. You know, however, this raises an interesting point. Surely other countries have some sort of fair use legislation? - Ta bu shi da yu 13:30, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Have a look here and here. I'm no lawyer, but as I read it, there is effectively no fair use provision in Europe. Filiocht 13:43, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is something I'm trying to establish on helpdesk. Even so, some of the Tintin comics were published in America, which does have fair use legislation. French legislation would not cover these books, surely? - Ta bu shi da yu 12:01, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Comment: I think the articles linked to in Tintin#Minor characters should really be merged into this article and redirected to The Adventures of Tintin - they just don't warrant their own article. This only effects my support because there are links to them. Just my $0.02 and doesn't affect my object/supports in any way. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:33, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. What about placing them all in Minor characters in Tintin, after articles like Minor characters in Star Wars? {Ⓐℕάℛℹℴɴ} 12:58, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Could be a good idea. Not sure... - Ta bu shi da yu 13:09, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Now done. {Ⓐℕάℛℹℴɴ} 22:35, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Heh, I didn't know that discussion to promote getting an article to "featured" status had to go hear. I was putting it on the article's talk page! Maybe this needs to be made clearer? At any rate, I think it's a very good idea to have this article featured considering how well in-depth it goes. There are some articles that just touch the surface of several aspects of that topic, not going into depth of any of them, making them poor articles.
--Fern 23:04, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So we'll put you down for a support then Fern? (hint: place a Support at the start of your comment). - Ta bu shi da yu 15:17, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. The article is well written, and very interesting. I think perhaps we should contact the Fondation Hergé and ask for permission to use more images; they have granted permission to other websites (unfortunately, the images won't be usable by Wikipedia mirrors). --Xiaopo ℑ 23:09, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

• Further objections:
  • The sentence "The only time this deviated was in the last published album, Tintin and the Picaros, he changes his daily garment, wearing brown jeans and loafers." is not accurate. See http://www.tintinologist.org/articles/clothes.html for a detailed list of his clothing. Could someone with the Tintin collection verify this and update the facts?
  • I reread the article and the prose is not the best. There are far too many one sentence paragraphs and awkward statements. These would need to be improved before the article could be considered
  • More examples of humour might be nice in the humour section. This is not such a massive objection.
  • Comment: Race and Colonialism seems to summarise The ideology of Tintin, which is itself incomplete. Perhaps if this article could be made more complete and then resummarised in the story this would be better.
  • Captain Haddock has a footnote in it, but I can't see what this references in the article!
  • Books - could we have dates published, along with original publishers, also the translated texts and their publishers and publishd dates?
  • Comment: Tintin in the New World: A Romance sounds interesting. Can we have more info?
  • Should the sentence "Belgium minted a limited-edition (50,000) silver 10-euro commemorative coin to celebrate the 75th birthday of Tintin in January 2004." be under See also? Also, maybe an image of the coin would be nice. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:19, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

George II of Great Britain

This article may seem a little short, but I think it is adequate. George II was not as significant a monarch as, say, his successor. Just about every political decision in his reign (except the war with Spain) is attributable to his ministers. -- Emsworth 22:56, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. You do excellent work Emsworth! - Ta bu shi da yu 05:01, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. James F. (talk) 09:34, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Excellent as always. Zerbey 16:50, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Charles II of England

Not as politically important as his father, but still very interesting. -- Emsworth 20:05, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. James F. (talk) 22:03, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I don't know why, but I've always liked this guy. Maybe I just like the word restoration. ;-) func(talk) 23:33, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. When I become King of England, I want to be just like him. Smerdis of Tlön 17:09, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. One of our more eccentric monarchs :-) Zerbey 16:51, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Samuel Beckett

Again a partial self-nom, although a lot of people have contributed to this. I suspect there may be a problem with the photo, but otherwise I think it's quite complete. Filiocht 11:27, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• FWIW, Waiting for Godot has some pictures of the play that could be added. Can we get a portrait from the publisher's website, and use it under fair use? Markalexander100 01:40, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • The Beckett estate are very jealous of their rights and like to charge for everything. I'll use a Godot image for now. Thanks. Filiocht 07:42, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Image changed now. Filiocht 10:08, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. I don't know much about him, or the area, but it looks really comprehensive and well put together. zoney ♣ talk 13:51, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Markalexander100 08:42, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Cell (biology)

Informative, fascinating subject. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:02, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC) Withdrawing my nomination as it's soon to get a major reeditting. Which tag do we use?

• Object. One sentence sections such as Cell_(biology)#Human_body_cells and Cell_(biology)#Moving_of_proteins should not exist. This article is far from complete and comprehensive. --Jiang 04:13, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object. I agree with Jiang the current article is very sketchy and unbalanced (good material on the origin of cells is unbalanced by telegraphically written non-prose information on the structure of cells). I am in the process of completely rewriting and integrating it with some nicely written material from science primer published by the NCBI (public ___domain), at User:Lexor/Temp/Cell (biology). I hope to get this done in the next few days. It will preserve as much as possible of the old material, and will include some (but certainly not all: it would be too much) of the NCBI material. When it is done, I propose renomination. --Lexor|Talk 07:13, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Excellent. Perhaps I could withdraw this objection (er, brainfart, I meant candidacy)? How to I go about doing this? - Ta bu shi da yu 08:24, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Strike it over using <s>strike</s>. — David Remahl 08:58, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Um, you mean withdraw my objection, only I can withdraw my own objection! ;-) --Lexor|Talk 09:16, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• I would recommend to follow the structure proposed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Science Pcarbonn 16:02, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Che Guevara

Comprehensive, yet concise; the essence of encyclopedic. Excellent NPOV, particularly so for a subject of such legendary proportions (and the article does address this legend). --Lensim 01:30, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The writing is generally good and covers most of what it should, at least it seems to me, as someone who knew nothing about him before. But there are many places where the writing is confusing, assuming the reader knows something they may not, or simply skips over important connections. Examples include the first sentence in the Cuba section that needs to be restructured to be clear who "the two" are. I assume, the paragraph in that section starting "Shortly..." means Niquero is in Cuba, but only the section heading leads to that conclusion. Also the section involving Felix Rodriguez fails to mention, but implies he was directly involved in the execution, etc. There are many others that would take another reading through the article to find. I'll fix as many as I can, but not being familiar with the subject, some of them I can't fix. - Taxman 15:36, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

I agree, these holes should be filled before Che reaches FA status. Another victory for the FAC process. But these edits seem fairly minor and the community should be able to iron out these chinks fairly quickly. I will re-read the article and pay particularly close attention to confusing nouns, pronouns and assumptions of subject familiarity. --Lensim 17:57, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object. My earlier objections have not been addressed. See [3]. Jeronimo 17:49, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If I read correctly, you have three objections: the infobox, the image Image:Felix Ismael Rodriguez.jpg and the image Image:Che guevara black and white bust photograph.jpg.

• I like the infobox. It provides accurate info quickly; i.e. it does the job an encyclopedia is supposed to do. I see it was deleted per your original objection on 12 July 2004, but restored on 28 August 2004 by a different party, thus indicating community support for the infobox. If your concern is one of standardization, would you consider keeping the infobox in the article and proposing a biography infobox template at infobox?
• The images are a problem for the Che Guevara article and its impending FA status. The Felix Rodriguez photo is particularly suspect. We should give them a little more time for copyright verification, but I propose removing them from the article if Che Guevara fails the FAC process again.

--Lensim 18:38, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• I have to admit, I don't like the infobox at all. I don't know how it looks on other browsers, but it is extremely wide in Internet Explorer on WinXP, a "fairly common" configuration (actually, it looksl ike crap in Firefox too, now that I check). (not a vote) --Fastfission 02:55, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• • Object (to the box). I fixed the stretchiness in Firefox (which is what happens when you try to fit too much stuff in them), but the whole idea of trying to fit Che into a box doesn't work: "Occupation: Physician"? Markalexander100 08:51, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Object to the infobox; I strongly dislike all bio infoboxes, but this one is particularly ugly and cumbersome. Everyking 12:44, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Shroud of Turin

A very well written article on a controversial subject. It has been the subject of some POV debates but seems to be sufficiently NPOV now to be featured. Zerbey 18:58, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Note: this was nominated before, see [4]. Please check to see if these objections have been addressed.

The following previous objections have been addressed:

• Reference to a BBC documentary regarding the photographic theory was removed since its existence could not be verified, and replaced with a reference to authors of a book in which the theory was proposed.
• A while ago, the theories were organized with section headings, and rearranged for better composition.
• The "Resurrection theory of image formation" is clearly described as "miraculous."
• The uncited example quote from the article was removed. Any others?
• The external links now have descriptions.

The remaining unresolved(?) objections regard:

• An "Oh, what a great mystery this shroud is" POV assertion. But counter-arguments are given for (seemingly) every theory. (It's a unique, strange artifact with no universally agreed-upon explanation, and the article reflects this.)
• An "ongoing dispute as to which language should be used to describe the nature of the shroud." What does this refers to?

--Johnstone 04:57, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Hard to imagine a more detailed, balanced treatment. Some will cry "POV" not because pro-authenticity arguments are presented as truth but because such arguments are given the implicit respect of inclusion. Of course, the real "POV" is the impulse to totally exclude those arguments from serious consideration. JDG 05:30, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object. JDG has been admirably industrious in unearthing and presenting every obscure argument offered by Shroud proponents. Some of the more blatantly POV presentations of those arguments, by JDG and others, have been improved somewhat, by myself and other editors. Nevertheless, the article still needs work to make it fair and balanced. It needs more information about the research and findings of the scientific investigation of the Shroud, by scientists who aren't actively looking for a way to argue that it's authentic. As far as I can tell, no one with scientific training has been involved recently so as to present the skeptical side properly. The article's overall tone also needs modification. It's still far too credulous about the proponents' claims and dismissive of the scientific establishment's view. Furthermore, there is no merit to JDG's pre-emptive strike against people voting against FA status. It's been a few months since I was involved in editing this article much, but I don't remember anyone who was trying to exclude the pro-authenticity arguments, as he charges. Instead, the effort was to deal with the pervasive pro-authenticity POV bias. For example, with regard to the C-14 testing in which four separate experts all dated the cloth to the thirteenth century, he stated as fact that there were "serious flaws in its implementation, attested to by qualified specialists of various religious and areligious predispositions, [that] left room for a rational belief that the shroud is something other than a medieval forgery." I fixed that particular one but I'm not a scientist and can't evaluate several of the other points that strike me as dubious. JamesMLane 16:33, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Wikipedia at its most preposterous. An utterly cynical nomination, which I expect will be followed on the main page by Vampire Watermelon. Wetman 16:51, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose (again). 1) Most of the claims lack direct citations. 2) Many sections are entirely without any counterbalance, e.g. "Analysis of artistic style". 3) No clear distinction is made between non-scientific claims, pseudoscientific claims and scientific claims. It has to be made clear that the majority of scientists would consider any theory which involves resurrection etc. to be pseudoscience. Right now, claims like "neutron emissions during the resurrection" are mixed with serious scientific analysis. This is unacceptable and ridiculous for any scientific reader. It makes Wikipedia look like a vehicle for religious propaganda. Many articles which exist in the intersection of religion and science/nature have this problem (compare the mess that is astrology). If you make scientific claims, you're judged by the rules and standards of the scientific method, including things like Occam's Razor. I have little hope for this article as long as the primary participants seem to be motivated by nothing but a desire to get the "real facts" about the shroud (i.e. the shroud is genuine, special, has come into existence by some unknown process) prominently featured.--Eloquence* 17:03, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

To me, this is a moment of decision for Wikipedia. Will it become the haven and preserve of a certain brand of intolerant rationalism, or will it strive to objectively report all serious viewpoints. James M. Lane, Wetman and Eloquence are, mostly unconsciously, applying a level of proof and rigor of citation to the shroud article that they would never hold an article on a less controversial topic to. Wetman and Eloquence, in particular, are dyed-in-the-wool skeptical reductionists who, ironically, show the same tendencies to supress (under the guise of NPOV and rigor) opposing positions that religious authorities of old showed. An article like this one is rendered unreadable when the authors attempt a super-delicate, almost neurotic tone of balance throughout. What it needs is what it has— strong statements displaying the core arguments of each side, letting the reader choose from among them. It is lively and engaging and brings the controversy home to the reader in a way that stimulates thought.

It's true the article could use some stronger material from the skeptical side. This need has been identified in its Talk page for months and no one has really stepped up. James M. Lane has limited himself mostly to tweaking existing sentences and Eloquence and Wetman have been content to stand on the side and trash writing that is plainly excellent prose merely because it is so removed from their own PsOV. The article is easily quality enough now for FA (and I'm referring to material almost wholly contributed by people other than me), even while we wait for the skeptics to get motivated. I'm calling on all Wikipedians who value real fairness and breadth to rally against these agenda-based objections. Yes, from day one in France, Encyclopedias have been dominated by more or less doctrinaire rationalists. I expect and accept that. But the best encyclopedias, round about the 1920s, began adopting conscious policies to moderate the rationalist bias in controversial topics along the faultlines of Science and Religion. Wikipedia must do the same and the vote on this excellent article is an important opportunity. JDG

Lots of personal attacks here, but no response to my arguments. I still oppose.--Eloquence*

Oh boy, here we go with the claims of personal attacks again. You can say those you disagree with are disseminators of 'pseudoscience' and still feel you are maintaining a proper tone. When I say you, Wetman and a few others are exhibiting a sort of intolerant, heavyhanded skepticism somehow I am engaging in ad hominem attack, even though the charge I'm making is, if anything, lighter than those you make. As for your 'arguments', I don't really see any. You put out the same phrases about non-scientific vs. scientific statements over and over, reshuffling the words, but not addressing anything specific to the shroud. In the article's Talk page, for instance, you recommended a 'Skeptic's Dictionary' writeup on the shroud as an admirable example of objective analysis. When I pointed out that the article you admired so much, in its assertion that "the shroud is a painting", flies in the face of nearly all _scientific_ studies of image formation in the shroud (which have found beyond all rational doubt that the shroud is a discoloration, not a coloration), you had nothing to say. So what have we here? We have a self-professed scientific skeptic advancing a position utterly debunked by real science. And we have (by your description) a purveyor of pseudoscience advancing a position fully backed by rigorous scientific method. This curious reversal has been going on, point by point, during the construction of the shroud article and it will apparently never stop. JDG 05:05, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Let me know when you are ready to talk about the substance of the article, or lack thereof.--Eloquence*

I guess you feel you are scoring points with these terse gibes, but as usual there is zero-content. If you want to talk substance why don't you start with the "shroud is a painting" position you advocate, which, as noted above, is at variance with over a dozen studies published in respected science journals? JDG

Why don't you start with 1) above? There is presently only a single complete reference in the article. For someone so obsessed with this article you show a considerable lack of interest in fixing its deficiencies.--Eloquence*

The article is chock full of references to books, individuals-by-name, named entities involved in named studies, etc.,. along with an extensive external links area. There is also an additional full reference in the body of the article in addition to the one listed in the References section. Another "deficiency" doing duty to a much larger agenda. JDG

There were only two places that I felt references were deficient. I thought you needed a citation to a reference at the end of the "General Observations" section and at the beginning of the "History" sections--with the assumption that probably one reference would cover the uncited points in the "History" sections since there were references cited for the dissenting opinions. ---Rednblu 07:18, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There's a difference between citing individuals by name and citing proper sources. Please do the latter. Then we can move on to 2).--Eloquence*

Yes. For example, consider the phrase--"On Holy Images, describes. . . .", At that place, you should cite to an entry in the References section. In the case of On Holy Images, there may not be a modern reprint of the entire text; nevertheless you should at least cite at least to a to a modern secondary text (a text that summarizes excerpts) to which the reader could refer to see whether or not you have correctly represented what is said in On Holy Images. In my opinion, there must be some reference that you could cite as a background reference for the entire History section, such as at the beginning of the History section, you might say: "The following section summarizes the History of the Shroud as detailed in Jones and Jones (2000)", and then you would give a complete citation to the book by Jones and Jones in the References section. ---Rednblu 18:19, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

An article's controversial nature is exactly the reason why we should be harder on the facts, hold a higher standard. All of these are excuses for not following the FA guidelines. It has to be balanced, fully treat the subject without skewing towards one side of the other. It also has to read well. This article fulfills neither obligation, and an inability to perform both simultaneously should not be a free pass to Featured Article status. --Gregb 05:02, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article is excellent on the facts. As many others here and during the last nomination have pointed out (among them the esteemed Jwrosenzweig), there is literally no description of one side's view without an equal representation of the opposing view. It's balanced so well it's almost astonishing. And it does read well. In fact it contains some of the tightest prose in all of Wikipedia (and, again, I am referring to others' contributions, particularly an anon user who waltzed in one day and contributed several long paragraphs worthy of a Britannica feature entry). Yet, a number of folks (led by Eloquence and Wetman who, tellingly enough, both admit to ingrained hostility to religion on their user pages) constantly charge imbalance and poor prose. I think the real source of their opposition is crystal clear. JDG

The section Radiocarbon dating is appallingly one-sided. Almost every paragraph in the article ends with a statement in support of the religious view. And as for prose, what about the sentence "At approximately 1.75 m (5 ft. 9 in), the man is quite tall, both for the 1st century, the time the shroud is purported to be from, and for the Middle Ages, the time of its purported fabrication"? Am I the only person who knows what purport means? I'll give you a clue: it doesn't mean "alleged" or "supposed".

Disagree on both counts. Radiocarbon Dating has its own article and it's in the nature of expository writing on controversial subjects to devote more space to what may be wrong with certain allegedly definitive conclusions. You don't give the reader a good sense of the controversy by rehearsing the merits of techniques like C-14 dating, you do it by delving into the specific objections made in this case. Also, "purported" is perfect in the sentence you cite ("1 : to have the often specious appearance of being, intending, or claiming (something implied or inferred) <a book that purports to be an objective analysis>; also : CLAIM <foreign novels which he purports to have translated -- Mary McCarthy> 2 : INTEND, PURPOSE , or implied"— Merriam-Webster). You slipped up by applying the meaning of "purport" as a noun, but here it is used as a transitive verb. JDG

• Support. It is a significant item in world culture. Arguments are presented both ways. I think that the "art analysis" paragraph is the weakest part. It would be good to get something quantifiable there. (A name or two...) But I don't see that as an obstacle to acceptance as a featured article, i.e. it would be good, but not "it would be imperative".
• Oppose. It should be clearly stated that modern methods could date the shroud with fair certainty, but the owners refuse to permit access. (William M. Connolley 19:49, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)).

• Support. But could you explicitly indicate your references, particularly for the "General Observations" and "History" sections? If these sections generally follow Picknett and Prince, those sections should be so cited--at the end of "General Observations" and at the beginning of "History" would be enough. For myself, I found the article Neutral Enough in point of view. That is, I did not feel that the text was unfairly asking me--or a hypothetical high school student-- to believe. After all, the article is documenting what is, in my opinion, a very superstitious, dangerous, and irrational part of humanity. But I thought the article did a good job in presenting reality; part of that reality is the superstition. And if I come to this page, I would want to know the depth of the darkness of the superstition about the Shroud; the page gave me that--and with good balance from the opposition. In addition, I felt that any hypothetical high school student who would come to this page and feel pressured to believe would deserve the cruel fate of becoming a believer; it would be his or her own fault and weakness--because I thought the Shroud of Turin page gave just the right balance that, in my opinion, manifests what Neutral Point of View should be in Wikipedia. ---Rednblu 19:57, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. I didn't even get to the end. You know it's POV when a section on scientific analysis gives a brief description of the method (one line) followed by a long refutation (three paragraphs). Especially when the refutation involves resurrection-related neutron bombardments. By all means report on people's beliefs but keep the pseudo-scientific babble for your church picnic. —Rory ☺ 20:04, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't think it's particularly well written and the image may be a copyvio. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:13, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • If it is a fraud, then it is a non-copyrighted painting, so that a photo lacks artistic expression and is public ___domain (at least under U.S. law). If it's real, then copyright is an issue. You can't have it both ways. :-) [It shouldn't be too hard to get a beyond all doubt non-copyrighted image of the item in any case, since there were public displays in 1997 and 2000. Or was photography forbidden in the chapel? (I didn't make it there to see it in person...)] - Mpolo 07:54, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. Some sections are quite POV, beyond a reasonable standard. Furthermore, many of the scientific objections seem to be related parenthetically, rather than on their own. It's death by a thousand cuts, rather than any specific looming infraction. Plus, as related above, the writing isn't anywhere near what I would call prose. Just because it's an important subject, and the article had lots of words, doesn't mean that it's deserving of a Featured Article status. --Gregb 05:02, 18 Sep

2004 (UTC)

• • I have substantially rewritten the article (before I had not been involved, other than one or two minor edits). The material is (mostly) the same, but I hope that the presentation is less controversial. I'd appreciate commentary -- is it better, is it worse, etc. The new version currently lives at Shroud of Turin/temp. -- Mpolo 14:41, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

Beslan school massacre

For something this recent, I'm pretty impressed. Here we have a detailed and neutral presentation of events, and I believe, something well worthy of featured article status. Ambi 14:14, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. I don't know if it is common to feature ongoing or recent event articles, but this is well written with good links. func(talk) 19:04, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support, if the diagram image by wikibob could be cleaned up a little (no offense to Wikibob). - Ta bu shi da yu 23:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• I'm not sure my objection is valid, but I think the topic of this article has occurred to short ago. This is not an actionable objection, so I'll formulate it in slightly more actionable ones, more specically: 1) There's a lot of information that should be in this article that isn't, simply because this is not yet known. It isn't even known how many died or were injured. The "Who were the hostage-takers?" is another example of this problem. 2) On the other hand, there's a lot of information that isn't really required for an encyclopedia article, cluttering the real information. These are tiny "facts" that are mostly irrelevant to the story, and were clearly added when the event in question was still going on, and when they might have been relevant. For example "One of the female suicide bombers detonated her explosive belt, apparently by mistake. No one around was injured." isn't relevant at all, and doesn't fit in with the rest of the story at all. 3) The external links are very "fragile", since many online newssites often remove their articles, or put them in the archive, which is for subscribers only. The translated article links are quite useless, the automatic translators aren't that good. -- For the record, I think what is currently in the article is quite good, but this topic needs to settle down before it can really cover the topic well. Before then, I don't think it should be featured. Jeronimo 18:01, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • A featured article should be "Be comprehensive". If there are gaping holes in the article (such as who the attackers were) - even if this information is not known yet - then this definitely isn't comprehensive, and as such is not yet feature worthy. →Raul654 22:43, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose This mainly an "hot" subject it lacks a lot inforamtion that are now published in the press. For instance(and despite my strong disproval of Rusian policy in Chenya), according to many witnesses it seems that the cruelty of the hostage-takers was terrific.

Ericd 21:36, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose for reasons stated above; more information will be available in the future. It is a good article, but too recent to be complete. --Tothebarricades.tk 17:50, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Henry Moore

Mostly a self nomination - but I like it. It has been through Peer Review where it only attracted one comment, 'who did he influence', which I haven't been able to address — its a bit like asking 'who did Newton influence', where the answer is just about every physist after him. I would prefer some better images, but now it has at least one really good example I think it is ready for the big time. - Solipsist 18:48, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support. With the first graphic, I knew who I was going to be reading about. While this work needs a little editorial attention WRT punctuation, and while "Knife Edge - Two Piece" needs Photoshopping to straighten it out, this is a sound story on a seminal 20th century sculptor. Denni☯ 01:12, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)
• Support. Ta bu shi da yu 07:18, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Filiocht 15:32, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. It would be great if someone knowledgable could clear up some of those red links. Cyopardi 17:05, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington

I think this is very good, though perhaps it could do with a couple more images (all will be PD because of age) Dunc_Harris|☺ 11:11, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support, but a reference to Dublin's Wellington monument might usefully be added. Filiocht 11:51, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object. 1) Concerning his DOB: "most likely date is May 1st", but the article gives April 30th 2) His name lives on in the Wellington boots, but these are not mentioned in the article. 3) The article has no references. 4) The table with "succeeded by"/"preceded by" looks extremely ugly. This could be done more elegantly, and Leader of the House of Lords shouldn't have to be listed three times. 5) The lead section should give an overview of the article, and his full name and titles don't belong in there. Instead, the lead should give a short overview of Wellesley's life. Jeronimo 12:30, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• The tables are structured so as to give an overview of the individual's career, so I would not object to it (furthermore, it follows conventions—see, for example, all the other articles on UK politicians). But there are other objections: 1. The article is too short. 2. The lead is too short. 3. Incorrect terminology is used in relation to the Peerage. For example: "appointed Duke of Wellington" (correct: "created Duke of Wellington"); "Viscount Castlereagh" (preferable: "Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh" or "Lord Castlereagh"); "Earl Grey" (preferable: "Charles Grey, 2nd Earl Grey" or "Lord Grey"), etc. -- Emsworth 21:54, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral. A great article, but needs to go into more detail about Wellington's military service. Zerbey 16:48, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I Want To Hold Your Hand

Renominating, as there were no objections last time, just only one support vote. I'm not sure why this was moved to failed nominations at only one week after nomination, as Jeronimo merely made suggestions, not conditions for his support vote. See also WP:PR listing. Johnleemk | Talk 09:09, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support, but can you can confirm that the pictures are used with permission? Zerbey 17:01, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • See fair use for an explanation. Johnleemk | Talk 08:03, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Same problems with the references cited as "A Day in the Life". Also, several references appear to be identical though they point to different pages. Minor nit not affecting objection status: I would like to see the word "interestingly" banned from Wikipedia as well. That should go without saying, I think. Jgm 18:32, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Why? In some cases it's good. It usually denotes something unusual and tells the reader that the preceding text is out of the ordinary. Interestingly, it can denote several phrases all in one succinct word: curiously enough, funnily enough, interestingly enough, oddly enough and strangely enough. If it's not overused it's quite appropriate. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:09, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Interestingly, the word interestingly often either sets off a fact that is interesting in its own right and does not usually need to be noted as interesting, or is not really all that interesting at all, and shouldn't be noted as such. Ok, that sounded more harsh than I meant it, but the word cen be quite overused. - Taxman 13:24, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

• • See the "A Day in the Life" nomination below for my response. As for the "identical" references, I'm following official policy: Wikipedia:Cite sources. Johnleemk | Talk 08:03, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • There's nothing in this official policy preventing you from either 1) combining all these references under a single link to http://www.beatles-discography.com, or 2) listing them as Beatles-Discography.com -- Beatles American Albums. Jeronimo 18:08, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Ambi 02:58, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Long and Winding Road

Self-nom. Raul removed this and a few other nominations, so I'm renominating a couple that I think are head and shoulders above the rest. Johnleemk | Talk 01:57, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Support: Same reason as for the other Beatles article. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:57, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Ambi 08:36, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support, but same as before - can we make sure there's no copyright violations? Zerbey 17:02, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • See fair use for an explanation. Johnleemk | Talk 08:47, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Same primary reason (tertiary references) as other Beatles song articles. Other nitpicks: I don't think any article that needs to use the word "arguably" in the lead is a FAC. The Naked album cover should not be bigger than the original Let It Be cover; in fact I don't know why we need album covers in a song article. The article itself would be crisper if it stuck to the song rather than the whole Get Back/LIB project. Jgm 18:41, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • See the "A Day in the Life" nomination for my response. Better to have some references than none. I don't write anything which is contradicted by another source unless it's a sufficiently major urban legend. The article does not even begin to cover the Get Back project. Details are mentioned where necessary to provide context. If you're referring to the court case, McCartney specifically named the song as one of six reasons for dissolving the Beatles (it's in the article). The word "arguably" is used because some would disagree with the assessment. If you disagree with my opinion, can you provide a better word to replace it with? Johnleemk | Talk 08:42, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Support. I also think the word "arguable" and its derivatives are a little over-used in the article (in the lead and the image of the single sleeve). It's not a show-stopper, but maybe it should be rephrased. Also, I added some wiki links to music theory articles in the Lyrics and melody section. - Karl Ward 14:34, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Maybe we need a List of words not permitted in featured articles? ;-) Filiocht 08:48, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. --Tothebarricades.tk 00:48, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)

Self-nom. See also Talk:Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown). Johnleemk | Talk 13:52, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Holy cow, man, isn't there supposed to be a limit on simultaneous self-noms? Anyway, the talk page for this article currently has several negative comments on structure and emphasis placed in response to the request on Peer review. I think Johnleemk has done a fine job of expanding and editing these song articles but I don't think any of them are crisp enough yet to warrant FA status. Jgm 14:38, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I don't really understand from them how to restructure the article appropriately. I've already explained the idea behind the sectioning. As for the limit on self-noms, Emsworth has had four or five at once. Quite a few of these articles are actually backlogged from about a week or two ago. Johnleemk | Talk 14:44, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I am unclear about this comment, btw. Is it an objection or is it not? If it is, I don't see anything to address. The inappropriate Rubber Soul trivia and an extra-verbose quote have both been removed/trimmed. There's nothing specific — how does the article ramble? How does it need restructuring? Johnleemk | Talk 11:27, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • I have not adhered to this limit on self-nominations; the policy was adopted without consensus, and, in any event, is (as presently worded) advisory, rather than binding. -- Emsworth 00:35, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support, excellent writeup. Can't see any glaring issues. Another excellently written Beatles article! - Ta bu shi da yu 08:27, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support. It's not as long as many of the other Beatles articles, but still very good. Ambi 08:36, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Not as long as the other Beatles articles. The structuring isn't terrible but I don't like titling it with an ambiguous quote. That seems like a magazine article tactic, these articles should be very to the point. --Tothebarricades.tk 18:02, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Policy says a featured article should be "complete". How can the article be fleshed out further? What more can one say on the song? I've renamed the section. Johnleemk | Talk 18:10, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rondane National Park

An article about the first national park in Norway, which I know very well. I've written all of the text. It has been on Peer review for almost a month; the only comment has been addressed (adding of table). [[User:Sverdrup|User:Sverdrup]] 18:15, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• A comment, as I know anons can't vote. It really needs copyediting by a native English speaker. There are a few points where it reads rather awkwardly at present. --80.41.235.202 08:50, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• I've had a partial attempt. Much more needed before it's Featured quality though. --80.41.235.202 09:08, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Object. I would have to agree with the above. every awkard part I knew of is fixed. - Taxman 15:51, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)
• Support - the above concerns have been addressed. --mav 00:27, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Comment: try clicking on "Hide" for the contents page... the images overlap the table. Not sure if this is something that can be resolved! - Ta bu shi da yu 08:40, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I thought I had solved this with <br clear=right /> , but apparently not. After some experimentation, I just moved down the image a bit. [[User:Sverdrup|User:Sverdrup]] 08:59, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support, now that the contents page is fixed. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:53, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• I wanted to support, but the first sentence in the biology section needs some work. Most important what? Also, what support is there that the reindeer are the most important anything in the park? Needs to be fixed for grammar and cited for factual support. Then I support - Taxman 16:24, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • I have tried to address this, and also inserted a quote from DirNat's material. [[User:Sverdrup|User:Sverdrup]] 13:02, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Pictures

The first list is featured articles that do not have a picture and hence would be problematic to put on the main page. Please add pictures and then move to the second list. GFDL or PD preferred — avoid fair use images where possible (they may not be fair use on the main page).

Tangentially connected pictures may also be suitable for the main page, even if they wouldn't sit well with the article itself. Use your common sense.

Featured articles missing pictures

• Chuck Palahniuk (needs picture of author)
• Computational complexity theory
• Computer security
• Donegal fiddle tradition
• Gram Parsons
• Indus Valley Civilization (fair use picture)
• Negligence
• Not the Nine O'Clock News
• Peloponnesian War
• Vacuous truth

These now have pictures

• Ackermann function - use pic of equation
• Anno Domini - Smerdis of Tlön 19:14, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Application programming interface - use UML lollipop symbol for an interface.
• ASCII (a lame one)
• Have I Got News For You (fair use)
• Illegal prime (It now has 2 images.)
• Jazz (still needs free image)
• Jim Henson (still needs free image)
• Korean name - use Image:Hangul_seong.png
• Madonna (singer) (still needs free image)
• Markup language (well, sort-of; suitable for main page? James F.

(talk) 15:02, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)) (don't see why not Lupin 00:37, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC))