Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force/Categorization
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Category list
I started a category list here - I am hoping to put categories here that need to be de-ghettoized, so members of the task force can start chipping away at them if interested. I also added an algorithm for correct categorization without ghettoization that I think will work and is relatively simply to apply - please read and provide feedback. If you think this should all be moved somewhere else, like a sub-page, that is fine too - just let me know. thanks! --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for posting that, and this is a good place for it. I'm not sure I follow what's needed, mind you. Whenever I've tried to work with categories, I've mostly been beaten back. :) SlimVirgin (talk) 02:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Ok - plz read through the algorithm, and let me know if it makes sense - otherwise, let's fix the description until it does make sense. The only way this ghettoization will stop is if people understand how to categorize without ghettoizing. I realized I'd been doing it the wrong way all along - first putting people in the most-specific-ethnic/gender cats, then trying to de-ghettoize up the tree, but that is a bad approach - it's much easier to basically classify them multiple times, each time adding more and more facets - that way, you start with a fully de-ghettoized/generic person, and then you're just adding facets along the way, so if you screw up, the result is less specific than it should be (which is ok), instead of ghettoizing (which is not). It's just harder, as you have to initially think of the person as not having any of the facets that they have. Also, on another note, I hope you'll consider my randomization solution for the vegetarians page. cheers! --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Has there been some sort of more detailed discussion about 'ghettoization' somewhere? Just curious. Sionk (talk) 20:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- check the NY Times, Huffington Post, NY Review of books, etc... --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- You're saying the press have told Wikipedia to 'de-ghettoize'? Sionk (talk) 20:50, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- In effect, yes. (see the top of Category_talk:American_novelists for a representative list of media coverage). Unfortunately, the press has focused mostly on women being moved from Category:American novelists to Category:American women novelists - now that that's fixed, the press is likely (hopefully?) going to go away. But the problem is not solved, not even by a long-shot. There are probably 10s of thousands of bios of women, men, african americans, LGBT people, or whatever else, that are "ghettozied", eg present in a gendered/ethnic category but not also present in a generic category of the same type. Whether you consider this situation "sexism" or "racism" or not (which, for the record, I don't really, I just see it as laziness and the result of a generally broken category system -read here for more on my views), our guidance says this is wrong, so it's really a question of following that guidance (and, potentially, refining that guidance). The problem is, fixing these bios one by one takes a lot of time, and it's rather hard, as you'll see if you take my quiz.
- Another (simpler) approach I've been taking is spotting and trying to kill categories which by their nature ghettoize, and which are in violation of WP:EGRS (which says you should never have ethnicity/gender/etc as the last-rung in a category tree), but I've had mixed success so far - there are far fewer participants in CFD than on April 24th, and some people are arguing to keep categories which are clearly on contravention of our guidelines - take a look here and give your thoughts if you like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:01, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Great, that makes it a lot clearer, thanks! Sionk (talk) 21:36, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- You're saying the press have told Wikipedia to 'de-ghettoize'? Sionk (talk) 20:50, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- check the NY Times, Huffington Post, NY Review of books, etc... --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Has there been some sort of more detailed discussion about 'ghettoization' somewhere? Just curious. Sionk (talk) 20:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
American women painters
I've made a start on Category:American women painters. Sionk (talk) 14:22, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Women mayors
Having had a look in Category:Women mayors the 'ghettoization' problem seems to be minimal. Of all the random entries I've looked at in Category:Women mayors of places in the United States and Category:Women mayors of places in England, for example, they seem to be in a general mayoral category too. Minor problem? Sionk (talk) 15:24, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- When I looked at several other countries they seemed to be ghettoized, but I may not have looked carefully enough. In any case, I think we're now actually close on a category intersection solution that make all of this deghettoization work not worth it anymore, so I'm going to focus on that for now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:33, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
English comedians
I've noticed an editor starting to 'ghettoize' Category:English women comedians and Category:English male comedians. I've left a message on their Talk page. Sionk (talk) 16:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- See here for my response. Apologies for any inconvenience. Mathonius (talk) 16:59, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
"Merging" (aka Deleting) categories
There is a discussion on merging Category:American women philosophers, Category:Asian American philosophers and Category:African-American philosophers into Category:American philosophers which would, in fact, lead to their deletion. If you would like to weigh in on the conversation (pro or con), go to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 April 17#Category:American (x) philosophers. Liz Read! Talk! 21:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)